Commons Sitting of 20 March 1822

GRENADA—PETITION FOR A REDUCTION OF TAXES.
Mr. Marryatpresented a petition from the council and the house of assembly of the island of Grenada, complaining of the distress to which the inhabitants of that island, in common with those of all the other British West India colonies, were reduced, and praying that the House would afford them such relief as was absolutely necessary to save them from impending ruin The hon. member stated, that the distress of the agriculturists at home had a prior claim to the attention of the House, but that the next subject, in point of importance was, the distress that prevailed among the agriculturists of our West India colonies. He had read in a pamphlet, said to be published under official authority, that the total of all the sums raised upon the land, in Great Britain and Ireland, under the several heads of beer, of malt, of hops, and of land-tax, for 1821, was about 9,000,000 l.; and that the customs and excise on our colonial produce afforded little less than 8,200,000 l. to the revenue: so great, according to the author of the "State of the Nation," was the claim of our sugar colonies to a degree of political import-

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ance, next only to our landed interest: "nec longo intervallo proximus." The petitioners stated the sources of their distress to be, the want of their former intercourse with the United States of America, and the very low prices of their produce. In consequence of the former circumstance, the prices of lumber and provisions in the British islands were double those paid in the foreign islands, into which American vessels were admitted. This difference was partly owing to the prime cost of some of the articles being higher in the British provinces in North America than in the United States; partly to the communication with Canada, and, indeed, most of the ports in the British North American provinces, being interrupted by the ice or tempestuous weather during a considerable part of the year; and partly to the markets in all those ports being so overloaded with rum—the article in which the returns for lumber and provisions were made—that they would take no more, and therefore discontinued sending the necessary supplies. The fact was, that the whole consumption of rum in the British provinces in North America, including Newfoundland, did not exceed 25,000 puncheons per annum, which was only the produce of two small islands, and did not exceed one-eighth of the whole. The consumption of the United States, while the intercourse with them was open, was six times the quantity taken by the British provinces, which was nearly equal to the proportionate population of the two countries: but since we had excluded their ships from our colonies, they had excluded the produce of our colonies from their ports, and the loss of this market had been grievously felt by the British West India planters. The consequence was, that the redundant quantity sent to Europe had so reduced the price, that it did not actually defray the charges of distillation. Leeward Islands rum, of proof strength, had been selling for several months at 1s. 4d. per gallon; the freight and charges upon it were 8d., the cask that contained it cost 4d., and the remaining 4d. did not reimburse the planter for the coals sent out from England, and the cost and repair of the stills and worms, vats and other utensils, necessary for distillation; so that the rum, instead of providing, as formerly, for the greater part of the island expenses of a sugar estate, was now a total loss to the
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planter. The price of sugar was also so much depressed, as not to pay the expense of cultivation; and the British planter found his labour lost, and his property annually diminishing.—The petitioners ascribed the present depreciation of their staple commodity to the increased interference of East India sugar in the consumption of the mother country, and to the augmented produce of the Spanish and Portuguese colonies where the slave-trade was still carried on. With respect to the first of these circumstances, the additional duty imposed upon East India sugar was intended as a protection to West India sugar, unless the price should advance upon the consumer beyond a reasonable rate; but it did not at present answer that purpose. Since the opening of the private trade to India, the number of ships sent from Great Britain to that part of the world had greatly increased. The only commodities they could find there to use as ballast in the voyage home, were saltpetre and sugar; and as the quantity of the former was very insufficient for that purpose, they made up the deficiency with the latter. Sugar from India, therefore, being merely a substitute for ballast, might be considered as coming home freight free—an advantage which was, never contemplated when the duties were arranged; and the quantity introduced into home consumption was annually increasing. The petitioners contended, that as their trade was restricted to Great Britain, they were entitled to a preference in the British market; and that such countervailing duties ought to be imposed upon East India sugar as to ensure the West India planters a fair price, before it was admitted into competition with them.—The other and far more important cause of their distress was, the vast increase that had taken place in the cultivation of sugar in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies, where the slave-trade was still carried on. It was long ago predicted, that unless this trade was abolished by Great Britain in concert with the other powers of Europe, the great objects of humanity would be defeated, and the British West India colonies be ruined. The former prediction had always been accomplished, and the latter was in a fair way of being so. The abolition by Great Britain had served as a stimulus to other nations to continue it to a greater extent than ever, and under circumstances of accumulated barbarity. The growth of

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sugar in the foreign colonies had thus increased to a degree that inundated every market in Europe, and brought great distress on the British planter, who depended upon those markets to take off the surplus of, his produce beyond what was required for home consumption. The first remedy prayed for by the petitioners, was, the renewal of the former intercourse between the British West India colonies and the United States. He was an advocate for the navigation system; but could not forget the observation of Mr. Burke, that "if that law be suffered to run the full length of its principle, and is not changed and modified according to the change of time and circumstances, it must do great mischief, and frequently defeat its own purpose. It will not only tie, hut strangle." This was, in his opinion, a case of that description; for the effect of its enforcement was not only to double the cost of the supplies necessary for the British planter, but also to deprive him of the best market for his rum, and tender it of no value whatever. The only interests that could possibly be affected by this measure were those of the British provinces in North America, and the British ship-owners. The objections of the former might be done away, by the imposition of a duty, upon such American articles as came into competition with those that were the growth and produce of our own provinces; this would give them all that colonies could reasonably claim—protection without monopoly. The interests of the British ship-owners would suffer more by driving the West India planters to extremity and ruin, as must be the consequence of continuing the present system, than by granting them the relief prayed for. If they were incapable of continuing the cultivation of sugar and rum, without loss, they must give it up, and raise provisions for their own subsistence, and that of their slaves. The ship-owners would then lose a far more important branch of their carrying trade, than the cross voyages between the West India colonies and the British provinces in North America.—The next remedy to which the petitioners begged to call the attention of the House, was the effectual abolition of the slave trade by the other powers of Europe. That his majesty's ministers had, made great sacrifices, in order to accomplish this object he readily admitted; and he hoped that their persevering endeavours in this
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good cause would be crowned with final success. Appearances, however, were far from promising. The government of Spain had, indeed, lately passed a law, inflicting punishment on those who carried it on; but for many years past, neither the laws nor treaties of Spain had been observed in the island of Cuba. By the treaty between Spain and Great Britain, the final abolition of the slave trade in the Spanish colonies was to have taken place in October 1820, and the judges and commissioners appointed by the powers to try all violations of the abolition laws arrived at the Havannah previous to that period; but, in the face of them all, the intendant at the Havannah took upon himself the responsibility of admitting every slave ship that came to that port, whether under the Spanish, French, or Portuguese flag; and the judges and commissioners had never been allowed to interfere. So late as October last, a friend of his (Mr. M's.) sailed from the Havannah for this country, and on the same day four vessels left that port, that were avowedly fitted out for the coast of Africa, to bring back slaves. The Portuguese government still refused even to fix a period for the abolition of the slave trade; and the emperor of Russia, who, at the congress of Vienna, approved of the proposition of the noble marquis opposite, to exclude the produce of those colonies who refused to accede to the abolition, had so regulated his late tariffs of duties, as to give a monopoly of the consumption of sugar in his dominions to the colonies of the only powers by whom the slave trade was carried on. Under these circumstances, the most strenuous exertions of ministers would be necessary to secure the effectual abolition of the slave trade; and the prospect of relief to the British West India planters from this event was, he feared, very distant:—The petitioners also urged, that the duty on sugar ought not to be arbitrary, but to depend upon its value, because, as at present regulated, it fell on the planter, and not on the consumer. He confessed, however, that in the present distressed state of the country, so expectation of any diminution in the duty could reasonably be entertained. Another mode of relief suggested by the petitioners, was, permission to export their rum in British ships, to any port is Europe—a permission which had already been given them as to all their produce, to any port in Europe south of

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Cape Finisterre. The greatest part of the rum sent from the West Indies to this country was re-exported at a double set of charges, which absorbed a considerable portion of its value, and which might be saved by shipping it direct to the places of its consumption. This permission would not only be useful to the planters, but to the British ship-owners, who would receive an increased freight for the longer voyage; and, upon the same principle that ships going from the West Indies to ports south of Cape Finisterre were permitted to load back with certain enumerated articles, they might be allowed to return from the Baltic with lumber, and from Hamburgh with staves, direct to the West Indies; which, under the present system, must, in the first instance, be landed in Great Britain, and then reshipped to the West Indies at an enormous and unnecessary expense. Independently of the advantage of procuring employment to the British ship-owners, by thus increasing the sources of supply of lumber for the West India colonies, the price would be kept down; and in case of war, the planters would be less sensibly affected by the loss of any one market, than if they depended for a supply on that one only. It appeared highly advisable to extend the permission prayed for, to sugar as well as to rum, as was already the case with vessels bound from the West Indies to any port of Europe south of Cape Finisterre. The present Russian tariff, if it continued in force, would soon induce our planters to resume the practice of cloying sugars, in order to secure their admission into the Russian market. Under the present system, they must first be landed in Great Britain, and then reshipped from hence at a double set of charges; but if permission were given to send them direct to Russia, they would then come into competition wish the clayed sugars of the Brazils and Cuba, which were sent there direct on equal terms as to freight and charges. Perhaps the House was not aware of the extent of the distress that at present existed in the British West India colonies. One planter wrote, that no credit could be obtained for provisions and clothing, except under a law of the island, which gave those supplies a priority even over mortgages, if furnished within the last 12 months; and that this credit was purchased at the rate of 50 per cent advance on the cash price of the articles, with the certainty of
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actions being brought to recover the amount, within the time prescribed by law for securing the priority. Another stated, that one third of the last year's taxes remained unpaid, without any possibility of being collected; and that the legislature of the island in which he resided were now imposing new taxes, under which those who could pay must make up the deficiencies of those who could not. Another declared his determination, unless things should take a more favourable turn, to abandon the cultivation of produce, and divide his land among his negroes, whom he could no longer-support, in order that they might raise-provisions for their own maintenance. As an instance of the depreciation of property, he might mention a fact that had come within his own immediate knowledge. An estate in Demerara, that was purchased about 7 years ago for 40,000 l., was sold at the marshal's sale last spring for 13,400 l. He trusted that some measure calculated to meet the urgency of the case, would speedily be brought forward.
Mr. Wilmotsaid, that the state of the colonies had not escaped the attention of his right hon. friend the president of the board of trade, who meant in the ensuing week to submit a motion on the subject of regulating the intercourse of the colonies with Canada.
Mr. Ellisconfirmed all that had been said respecting the severe distress under which the colonies now laboured. That the planters had not sooner appealed to parliament was owing to the confidence they reposed in the protection of the legislature.
Mr. Brightbegged also to express his concurrence in the opinion, that the distresses of the colonies required immediate attention.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MOTION RESPECTING TUE DUTIES ON TALLOW AND CANDLES.
Mr. Curwen,in rising to bring on his promised motion for a committee of the whole House on the import duties on Tallow, said, that the subject was one of great importance, not only as it affected the landed interest of the country, but as it affected other interests, which it was the duty of that House to protect. He had the means of knowing the opinions of agriculturists, and he knew that they thought that the importation of foreign tallow was one amongst other causes

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which operated to produce the great disproportion which unfortunately existed between the supply and the demand. He would press this measure on the consideration of the House, as one which was just and necessary in itself; and as one, which if entertained, would not tend to decrease the revenue, whilst on the other hand it would essentially serve the farmer. He believed he was sanctioned by the opinion of the chancellor of the exchequer in saying, that though considerable duties were placed on the importation of other articles, the produce of this country, yet those duties did not tend to diminish the consumption of those articles, or to injure the revenue of the state. The same reasoning he thought might be applied with equal force with respect to tallow. The English farmer would be able to supply the demand of the English market, and he ought to be placed at least on a just and equal footing with the foreign agriculturist. He believed that all men, however they might differ on other points, agreed that the country in general, and the agriculturists in particular, laboured under great and pressing difficulties. He was willing to assume that government felt for those distresses—he was willing to believe that it was the wish of government to give relief. Unfortunately, however, persons differed as to the best means of affording that relief, and he in common with the great bulk the people, was convinced, that the measures already taken by government were quite inadequate to afford any sensible amelioration of the public distress. He did not call on the government to sacrifice any portion of the public revenue, without receiving an equivalent in another shape. The anxiety of ministers to preserve that revenue would not preclude them from giving their support to the present proposition. And here he would call the serious attention of gentlemen to the melancholy fact, that whatever might have been the extent of public distress, unquestionably since the parliament had assembled that distress had not been diminished. He did not mean to throw blame upon ministers. He did not mean to under-rate the steps which they had taken. The taking off shilling per bushel on the duty on malt might have been thought by them the most probable means of affording relief; but the country now felt that relief did not follow the reduction of that tax, at least, in the proportion which was expected. It was his opinion, that other
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measures might be carried into effect from which greater relief might be derived, and he called upon ministers to see whether any thing further in the shape of practical relief might be effected. The measure he was about to propose would tend to relieve the farmer, without putting any burthen upon the consumer. If it could have such an effect, he would not bring it forward; he would not stand up in his place to advocate any measure which might relieve the agriculturists at the expence of the great class of consumers. It was evident that the difficulties under which the country laboured were not confined to the agricultural body. It was not the landlord; the tenant, and the labourers that alone suffered; but the great body of the people at large felt the pressure of the times. He might appeal to every gentleman who heard him, whether, at every fair and market town in the kingdom, the consequence of the reduced situation of the farmer was not experienced. Formerly the farmer, after disposing of his produce stopped in order to take necessary refreshment, and to provide himself with articles of comfort and convenience; but at present, the moment the market was concluded the farmer ran off without spending a farthing. Such was the fact, the distress of the farmer affected not only himself; but every tradesman, every publican, every man who had any thing to sell, felt the consequences of the distress of the agriculturists. That distress, even amongst the farmers, did not press equally. The graziers suffered more than the growers of corn; meat, which formerly sold for 10 d. was now 3d. or 4d., and in the metropolis at the highest price, not more than 7d. per lb.; such was the price to the consumer, but the farmer received not more than 3½d. per lb. sinking the offal. It was a fact, that prime cattle at present brought no more than cattle from the highlands of Scotland had formerly brought. The measure he had to submit to the House, namely, an additional duty on the importation of tallow, would, in the first instance, have the effect of raising the price of that article, but by taking off part of the tax upon tallow manufactured, which now bore so heavily upon him, the consumer would derive infinitely more benefit than disadvantage from the plan; and the farmer would be considerably benefitted. The average quantity of tallow imported from Russia was computed to amount to about 35,000 tons a year the quantity melted in this

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country was estimated at 70,000 tons a year. The average price per lb at present was 3½d. Now, in what situation did the two countries respectively stand? The English grazing farmer could not produce his tallow without feeding his cattle upon land that was equal in value to about 20 s. per acre; the Russian farmer produced his from lands that were worth not quite 1s. per acre. The latter produced his tallow, also, without any more labour or expense than the trouble of slaughtering his beasts, and boiling the fat down; these beasts were not, like ours, valuable cattle, but animals that were merely raised and kept for the purpose of obtaining their tallow. But was this the only comparison to be made between the two countries? Was the situation of a farmer, or even of a labourer, in this country, to be likened to that of a peasant or farmer in Russia? Surely the interests of our own producer, on every ground, merited protection. The duty upon Russian tallow imported, was now 10 l. odd per cent: the duty on hemp, an article so necessary and essential to our shipping, no less than 35 l. Now, was there any just gradation of policy, he would ask, in taxing an article like hemp—of indispensable necessity to our most valuable service, and of which we ourselves were not growers, but consumers only, at this high rate; and levying upon tallow—an article raised by ourselves—a duty almost nominal, in comparison to the other? His motion was framed to protect our own markets, not only now, but hereafter, from excessive importation from other countries; for, had there been peace in South America for any length of time, we might have expected great quantities of tallow from that part of the world. Russia produced, altogether, 40,000 tons of tallow yearly; of which she exported from 30 to 35,000 tons to this country. And how did Russia preserve this trade? It was very extraordinary, but it was true, that she imposed 8 per cent on the tallow exported from her coasts; and made us pay annually, about 70,000 l. for what?—for permission to bring her tallow to our own markets, to put down the produce of our own agriculturists. The duty upon imported tallow he should now propose very considerably to increase. What would be the consequence of such increase might be gathered from the beneficial effects of a similar increase in other cases. It would operate as the augmented duties had done with respect to our trade with Spain and
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Holland. Spain took off her heavy duty on exported wool, the moment she found that the right hon. gentleman opposite had placed a new duty on its importation. Holland had done the same, when the duties on foreign butter and cheese were imposed. Russia ought now to be made, through the same mode of proceeding, to take off her duty upon tallow. So far from our trade with Holland having declined by reason of the new duties, she had this year sent over 800,000 barrels of butter—which was more than she sent before those duties were imposed. The trade with Ireland had, perhaps, somewhat decreased; but, as Ireland, from the nature of her climate and soil, must in the end thrive most by attending both to grazing and the dairy, be was for permitting these duties to continue. In praying for a committee of that House to consider this subject, he was prepared to go to the full extent of putting a duty of 20 l. per ton upon foreign imported tallow. Upon the whole quantity of tallow imported, allowing for the duty payable in Russia, this would be an imposition of about 15 l. per cent on the value, as regarded foreign tallow only; the Russian grazing farmer, instead of getting 3½d., would get only 2½d. per lb. This tax of 15 l. per cent divided upon the whole quantity of tallow, foreign as well as home-produced would cause a rise in the price of tallow of about 5l. per ton. Now, in his humble opinion, this increased duty would have the effect of increasing the yearly value of grazing lands by about 300,000 l. he calculated that the increased duty would afford to the revenue a surplus over the produce of the old duty of 300,000 l. He should propose that this 300,000 l. be applied to taking off the present duty on candles, which now yielded somewhere about 360,000 l. per annum; and the expenses for the collection of which amounted to about one seventh of the duty. The price of the candle to the manufacturer was not more than 5d., the cost of manufacturing ld., and yet the consumer, for the most inferior sort, paid 9d. per lb. For every 6d., therefore, of cost, the consumer paid 2d. profit to the manufacturer, and 1d. for duty to government. He should not have brought the present subject before the House, could he have prevailed upon ministers, from whose hands such propositions always emanated with most propriety to do so. The distresses of the times, however, had operated with him, to give ministers an opportunity of at least reconsidering

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these matters; and on that ground he moved. "That this House will resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the propriety of augmenting the existing duties on Tallow, and also for repealing the duty on Candles."
Mr. Sykescould not concur with his hon. Mend in the principal object of his motion; because, at a time when the question of peace or war was trembling in the balance—when the fate of thousands of unfortunate christians was involved in the forthcoming decision of the cabinets of Petersburgh and, Constantinople, it would be unwise to irritate the Russian government by imposing a severe additional duty upon an article of Russian produce. Such a course, moreover, might lead to some harsh retaliatory measure on their part, directed against the commerce of England. It must be evident, too, that if the importation from Russia was lessened, the exportation from England, must decrease in proportion. He did, however, perfectly agree with his hon. friend, in the necessity of repealing the tax on candles, which was a tax on labour itself; because, while gas, and oil lamps, and; a hundred other elegant inventions, were employed for the purpose of lighting the mansions of the rich, the industrious mechanic worked many hours, after his daily labour, by candle light. A tax on candles, therefore, was a direct tax on labour; and consequently one that no motives of human policy could ever sanction. He was not disposed to disagree with the financial views of the chancellor of the exchequers or to contend, that there ought not to be a surplus beyond the expenses of the country. Whether that surplus should be to the extent of five millions above the annual revenue, he would not decide; but if it were proposed that it should accumulate at compound interest, he should give it his firm opposition. He had seen that the sinking funds of sir R. Walpole and of Mr. Pitt, had no sooner been established, than they were broken in upon; and he anticipated the same result if the system were now revived. In so much of the proposition of the hon. mover, as contemplated the reduction of the tax, he fully agreed; but he could not agree in any measure which would indicate hostility on the part of this country against Russia.
Mr. Robinsonagreed in a great part of what had fallen from the hon. member for
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Hull. As one who was connected with that interest which the hon. mover professed himself anxious to support, he was necessarily desirous of entertaining any measure which could be proposed for the relief of the agricultural interest, without injury to others; but he could not agree to a proposal which could only benefit agriculture by throwing a burthen on the whole body of consumers, or by impeding the trade of the country. The tax proposed to be laid on foreign tallow must have one of two effects—it would raise the price of tallow, or it would not. If it raised the price of tallow, it would increase the price of candles to the consumer, and render the burthen more onerous to those who already complained of the taxes: if it did not raise the price of tallow, it was no protection to the agriculturists. The duty on candles was now 9l. or 10 l. a ton, that on tallow at present between 3l. and 4l. The proposal of the hon. mover was, to take off the tax on candles, and increase the duty on tallow to 20 l.; so that the duty on the ton of candles would be increased from about 12 l. 10 s. to 20 l. Looking to the effect of the proposed duty, he could not help observing, that the most active advocate of the tax on tallow (he did not mean the hon. mover) who was propagating pretty largely the facts and arguments in favour of this tax, was, at least such was the general notion in the city, greatly interested in an advance of the price of the article [hear!]. This gentleman did not go the length of asserting, that the price of tallow would not be increased; but he went a round-about way to prove, that the increase would not be beyond 5l. 10 s. a ton, an increase of price which would make a difference of 3s. a-head on an ox. Really, then, were they to risk the embarrassment of commercial relations, and to throw a fresh burthen on the consumer, for the sake of a boon, which after all, was not worth having The hon. mover had, however, so managed his argument as to suppose, in one breath, that the tax would operate as a protection to the agricultural interest, because it would raise the price of tallow; in another breath, that it would not injure the consumers, because it would not raise the price of tallow. The hon. member to make out this last supposition, had told them, that the foreign producer could afford to sell his tallow so much lower than he actually did, that he, and not the

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consumer would pay the tax. Now this, if it were true, was no argument for the measure. The just complaint of foreigners, was that the trade of this country was so restricted, that all their ingenuity was required to get an article into this country on profitable terms; and now that one article was found on which they could get a profit, the state was to step in and take it in the shape of a tax. If this was to be our rule of commercial policy, we might as well shut up shop at once. On these grounds, therefore, he should oppose the motion.
Mr. Ricardosaid, he had heard with great pleasure the principles avowed by the president of the board of trade, and hoped the right hon. gentleman would hereafter act upon them; for if they had hitherto been followed up, the right hon. gentleman could never have proposed the duties upon cheese and butter [Hear!!.] The hon. mover was a great friend to agriculture, and was ready to go a great way in support of it. The length to which he had gone that night was really surprising, for he had told them exactly the quantity of tallow produced in this country, the quantity produced abroad, and the effect which the tax operating on this quantity would have upon the price, which he told them was precisely 5l. 10 s., the rest of the proposed tax being to be paid by the foreign producer. How the hon. gentleman got at this result was surprising. He believed the fact would turn out to be very different; that the producers in all foreign countries furnished their articles on the average, at the price at which they could afford them; and that a tax now imposed, would on the average of future years, be added to the price. He could not consent to tax the whole community for the benefit of one class. As he anticipated that his hon. friend's motion would meet with the fate it deserved, he should not detain the House longer, but to observe on a remark of the hon. member for Hull. The hon. member for Hull had said, that he was a friend to a surplus revenue beyond expenditure, but that be was an enemy to a sinking fund. Now to what purpose was a surplus revenue applicable but as a sinking fund? The hon. member had said, that he found from the experience of history, that a sinking fund was always seized by the ministers. He (Mr. R.) agreed with him, and it was on this account that he
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objected to the proposal to maintain a; surplus revenue. In principle nothing could be better than a sinking fund. He was so great a friend to the principle, that he was ready to consent that the country should make a great effort to get out of debt; but then he would be sure that the means taken would effect the object. He would not trust any ministers, no matter who they were, with a surplus revenue, and he should, therefore, join in any vote for a remission of taxes that might be proposed, so long as a surplus revenue remained. The taxes on candles and on salt had been proposed for reduction, but though that on salt was undoubtedly very burthensome, it did not appear to him to be that which most demanded reduction. The taxes on law proceedings seemed to him the most abominable that existed in the country, by subjecting the poor man, and the man of middling forte, tune, who applied for justice, to the most ruinous expence [hear!]. Every gentle man had his favourite plan for repealing a particular taxi and this tax upon justice; was that which he should most desire to see reduced.
Mr. T. Wilsonexpressed the strongest objection to the measure proposed, and was very doubtful what would be its effect upon Russia. The hon. mover had stated, that when the duties on wool were imposed, the Spanish government took off the exports, but he forgot the circumstance, that Spain immediately prohibited woollen goods of the manufacture of this country. The same effect, he was convinced, would follow, if such a course were pursued towards Russia. He was a friend to free trade, and if its principles were not to be acted upon, he was anxious for the character of this, country, that it should not cast the first stone, and allow other nations to say, that they were only retaliating upon us.
Mr. Bennet,of Wilts, said, he was a friend to the principles of free trade, but he had never heard them applied to the removal of the restrictions on the proposed repeal of the importation of hats, or silk, or leather goods, or the other innumerable articles of manufacture, but solely to the removal of the small protection which agriculture enjoyed. He was convinced that some restrictions were necessary at present, as in no manufactures could we compete with foreigners under the present weight of taxation. The tax which had been imposed on foreign wool had been

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most beneficial, as it had been paid entirely out of the pockets of Spanish wool growers; wool being as cheap now as it was before. Tallow would, he was convinced, be little increased in price by the tax, as the expence in Russia was merely that of driving the beasts together, and boiling the fat. He should cordially support the motion.
Mr. Philipscalled the attention of the House to the manner in which the manufacturers had come forward in favour of a free trade, referring particularly to a petition presented from the chamber of commerce of Manchester. He contended, that the skill and ingenuity of our manufacturers was sufficient to protect them against the rivalship of foreign nations. On the subject of a relaxation of taxes, he expressed his decided opinion, that the duty which might be most beneficially removed was that upon raw silk. It would produce a vast extension of the manufacture of that article, and would thereby inevitably benefit the agricultural interest; seeing that the prosperity of agriculture depended mainly upon the prosperity of the manufactures. He trusted that the session would not be allowed to pass away, without some further light being thrown upon the subject of a free trade with foreign countries.
Mr. Curwen Mr. Curwen shortly replied. After which, the motion was negatived.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Lord Palmerstonrose to move the remainder of the Army Estimates. He would begin with the vote relative to the War office. He had made, since last year, a reduction to the amount of 8,000 l. This saving was effected by the removal of 16 persons. He had reduced one salary of 1,200 l., one of 1,000 l., two of 800 l. two of 700 l., two of 450 l. one of 500 l. another of 400 l., and several others of smaller amount. Comparing the present estimate with that of 1814, there was a diminution of 18,000 l. There was still several persons employed on the arrear accounts, and whenever those accounts were brought to a close, a still greater reduction would take place. A new scale of salaries had been adopted, which, when brought into operation, would ensure a saving of from 18,000 l. to 19,000 l. The scale by which salaries were now regulated in the War-office, was on the same footing with that which prevailed in
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the other public offices. Individuals dated their period of service, as entitling them to an increase of salary, from the time at which they first entered the office. But, by the new scale, the increase of salary would depend on their standing in the particular class to which they immediately belonged. This would retard, in a considerable degree, the period at which any individual could arrive at a great amount of salary. According to this scale, no person could attain a salary of 800 l. a year until he had been 45 years in the office. His lordship then moved, "that 43,185 l. 15 s. be granted for defraying the charge of the War-office.
Mr. Humesaid, the noble lord had made the saving amount to 8,000 l.; but he could not, by adding the items, make it nearly so much; and it should be borne in mind that there had been additional pensions granted to the extent of 5,040 l.; so that the saving was more apparent than real. Taking the pensions into the account, the expence was almost as great now as it had been in 1814. The superannuation system was carried, in the office of the secretary at war, to a greater extent than in any office under government. In 1798, the whole establishment stood the country in 16,000 l.; whereas it was now upwards of 43,000 l. With respect to the arrear accounts, he was quite satisfied that the establishment of clerks which was kept up to inspect them was of no utility whatsoever. These accounts had been left in a state of confusion, until all who could give any information about them were dead and gone; and yet the department for inspecting such accounts had cost the public from 130 to 140,000 l. in the course of the last twenty years. He was prepared to show, that no office under government required a different arrangement more decidedly than that of the noble lord, who was the Alpha and Omega of that office. No person, could interfere with the noble lord in checking or controlling the system. There was one singularity in the office to which he would call the attention of the committee. There was a secretary at war with 2,480 l. a year, and a deputy who received 2,500 l. a year. Why had the deputy more than the principal? The first clerk received 1,400 l. a year, although in 1796 his salary was but 722 l. The commissioners of military inquiry, when they examined the state of the War-office, deliberately gave it as their opinion, that the additions made to the salaries of the prin-

1217
cipal clerks were granted under particular circumstances, and were, in general, to be considered merely temporary. It was quite evident, that these very high salaries were intended as a reward for great exertions in time of war, and they ought, therefore, to cease when hostile operations were no longer carried on. He would now advert to some circumstances connected with the extravagance of the office. Mr. Brown had been allowed to act as commissary for a short time, and from that department he had retired with 276 l. a year. He had 1,200 l. a year as clerk. But all that was not enough; 300 l. a year were added as clerk to the fund for chaplains, &c. It was extraordinary, too, that each of those clerks had 7l. 15 s. allowed him for newspapers. Mr. Brown was thus in receipt of 1,926 l. a year altogether. There was a Mr. Edward Marshall, who had 700 l. a year, and received besides 150 l. for preparing estimates to be laid before the House. Now, the time required for this could not be more than two or three days; and he really thought the sum considerably too much. He should be happy to do it himself for less, and should think himself very well paid. A Mr. Wilkinson had been eighteen years in the office, and received 450 l. a year. For assisting in making up the estimates he received 100 l.: for regulating the army list 100 l.; and for preparing the militia and yeomanry list 100 l. He had, besides, some other employment connected with the army list, and appeared complained, that the salary of the deputy ed altogether in six different capacities. I secretary was greater than that of the A Mr. Merry had been 11 years a clerk, with a salary of 250 l. He was, besides, private secretary to the assistant secretary. The whole duty of the department might be done by 15 persons, and for 15,000 l. Contingencies were stated at 2,250 l. Last year the noble lord had stated, that not one senior clerk could be spared. Yet, what had he done? He had turned out five or six senior clerks, and if half a dozen more were turned out, the business could be done as well as now. Mr. Sullivan had been ten years in the office, and he received 1,000 l. Now had he, by seniority or otherwise, acquired such a salary? But it was more. A person having 1,200 l. a year had been reduced, and Mr. Sullivan had his salary increased to 1,200 l. a year. This was ministerial economy! He wished the noble lord to say how many young men had been lately received into the office? During the last two years, and since the pretended economy had commenced, eight
1218
or nine young men had been introduced The changes which the noble lord had made did not, in short, promote economy or the public service. He could not consent to a vote of 43,000 l. when the whole duties of this department were performed for little more than half that sum in 1806.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, his majesty's government had certainly very little encouragement to make any reductions, considering the manner in which they were received by the hon. gentleman opposite. He admitted that he had said, in the last session, that no reduction of clerks could be made, without inconvenience to the public service; but, if he had since deferred to the wishes of parliament, it was a little unfair to charge him in one session with making no reductions, and then to turn round upon him, and accuse him of having made them in another session. With regard to the introduction of young clerks into the office, it was the only mode by which he had been enabled to make any reductions. He had discharged individuals with high salaries of 700 l. and 1,000 l. a year, and to meet the deficiency, he had engaged clerks at salaries of 90 l. and 100 l. a year. His office had undoubtedly undergone an entire change since the year 1797. In 1797, the number of clerks was small, but many of them had high salaries whereas, at present, the number of clerks was much increased, but very few of them had large salaries. The hon. member had complained, that the salary of the deputy secretary was greater than that of the secretary himself. This salary, however, would be fixed in future at 2000 l. instead of 2,500 l. the gentleman who now held this office had no extra allowances: he had formerly been chief examiner of Army accounts, at a salary of 1,500 l. and he had the privilege of supplying the garrison of Gibraltar, which was worth 900 l. a year; so that, in fact, he relinquished appointments to the amount of 2,400 l., and received only 2,500 l. He neither knew, nor wished to known where the hon. gentleman got his information, but his informant was not more accurate than the hon. gentleman himself. He was persuaded that in no office was the public business more efficiently discharged that in his own, and that no set of men worked harder than the clerks connected with it. He would states one proof, and a melancholy proof of this fact; namely, that since the year 1810, no fewer than 26 clerks, all of them in the prime of life, had died of pulmonary and

1219
other complaints, arising from sedentary habits. With respect to the charge for newspapers, the indulgence was by no means extended to all the clerks, but only to the higher clerks in the office. The whole charge was trifling, and quite unworthy of notice. The hon. member had accused him of being the creator of a system of pluralities. Now this was so far from being the case, that he had issued orders that no person connected with the office should engage in any other employment without his leave, and that leave be had never in a single instance granted. The hon. member had talked of the ease with which he himself could make out the estimates. Now he (lord P.) must say, that he would rather not trust him with that office [a laugh]. After the accuracy which the hon. member had displayed in the exercise of his arithmetical functions in that House, he did not think it safe to trust the estimates in his hands. The difference of a few millions more or less, though of no consequence to the hon. member, would not be so convenient when the House came to discover them in the Army Estimates. The labour of making out the estimates, so far from being a work of two or three days, occupied several months, and if any fault could be imputed to his majesty's government, it was, that the persons employed in this labour were inadequately paid. The hon. member was mistaken in supposing that Mr. Wilkinson received any allowance for making out the Army list. He was allowed to edite the list, taking upon himself the chance of profit or loss, and he received no remuneration whatever from the public. The hon. member did not appear to understand the difference between the annual and the monthly Army list. The monthly Army list cost very little; but an allowance was granted for combining and editing the annual Army list, which could not be published by any bookseller, except at a loss. The sum allowed to his private secretary was for taking the charge of all the correspondence connected with the compassionate list. The other person to whom the hon. member had alluded, received a salary of 100 l. for assisting the deputy secretary at War. It was quite impossible that the manipulation of all the papers of the office could be conducted with the assistance of a great number of inferior clerks. He should like to know how many assistants the hon. gentleman himself had to arrange his own papers. The hon. member wished
1220
to know after what length of service Mr. Sullivan had been appointed to a salary of 1,000 l. Mr. Sullivan had been appointed at once to that salary on his (lord P.'s) recommendation; and he was persuaded that no man who inquired into the manner in which he had discharged the duties of his office, would doubt the propriety of the recommendation. The salary of the office had been increased from 1,000 l. to 1,200 l. a year, because he felt, that, in fixing the salaries of the office on a permanent footing, this was only a fair allowance; but he begged to observe that the increase was only annexed to the office, and that it was not extended to Mr. Sullivan. The noble lord then went into a comparison of the present expense of the department, with the charge which had been made upon it in former years. In 1806, the vote had been 56,000 l., and the number of persons employed 105; in the present year 106 persons were employed, and the vote was 44,000 l. only. It was evident, therefore, that between 1806 and 1822, a considerable reduction in salaries must have taken place. The period of 1792 had been adverted to; but let the amount of duty done in that year be looked at. In 1792, the number of papers sent out of the office was 7,200, and 22 persons were employed. In the last year the number of papers sent out had been 98,792 and the number of persons employed 132; so that if the persons employed had increased in number five or six-fold, the quantity of business done had increased in a much larger degree. With respect to the management of the public accounts, be regretted that their arrear had increased so much. It had been occasioned, he really believed, by a wasteful economy, by injudiciously diminishing the strength of the office. The accounts were examined as carefully as possible, as they were taken in hand. The balance was due in some cases to the accountants, and in others to the public; but, on the whole, the balance was in favour of the public. Difficulties often occurred, from a want of vouchers which had been lost or mislaid, and from the absence of other explanatory circumstances; but while, on the one hand, government were determined to call on public accountants to settle, they, on the other, gave a liberal interpretation to every fair doubt which was occasioned by a delay in the examination.
Colonel Daviessaid, the noble lord wing blamed by his honourable friend, not for

1221
the reduction itself, but for his tenderness in making it. He had been driven into economy, although he had contended against its possibility, and it was to be observed, that most of the reduced clerks received large superannuation salaries. The criterion by which the House ought to judge was, not what had been done, but what could be done in the way of reduction.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 26,903 l. be granted for the charge of the office of the paymaster-general,"
Colonel Daviessuggested, that the whole of this department might be dispensed with. He believed the paymaster-generalship of the army to be an entirely useless office. It was merely a ministerial office, and the only duty done was the passage of money through it. The expense of the office had greatly and needlessly increased. In 1797, the entire charge of the office was 11,340 l. In the present year, the salaries after deducting superannuation allowances and contingent expenses, amounted to 19,000 l. The fact was too strong to require enforcing by argument, and he was bound to press it upon the committee.
Sir C. Longsaid, that of all the committees of finance which had considered this subject, there was not one which had thought the office of paymaster-general useless. This office, it seemed, had escaped the diligent and accurate research of Mr. Burke, and of lord Colchester, and it was reserved for the sagacity of the hon. colonel to discover that it was altogether useless. The hon. colonel said the office was a ministerial one; now, he must think that the hon. member knew very little, if any thing, of: the nature of the office, to make such: an assertion. The business of this department could not be performed without the assistance of the paymaster-general, who had to examine and pass a great variety of accounts. Was that ministerial duty? Was the payment of the half-pay nothing? But it was said, that this was a duty which might be performed, by the Bank. Now, he, from experience, might state, that the Bank could not discharge the duty. He had to look at various accounts of officers, to see whether their affidavits were regular, whether the proper forms were gone through, and, where such forms were accidentally omitted, to decide whether the omission was of such a nature as
1222
should retard the payment of the particular individual. Of all these matters the Bank could know nothing. Besides, the paymaster-general acted as treasurer of Chelsea Hospital. Was that also a ministerial duty? Again, the paymaster had to attend to the argument of prize-money, to examine the claims made, and to see how far the party claiming was entitled. Was that also a duty which could be discharged by the Bank? If the hon. member thought it a useless office, be should have brought in a bill to abolish it altogether, and to repeal all the acts which regulated its duties. If the hon. member should have courage enough to embark in such an undertaking, he would find himself shipwrecked before he got a hundred yards from the shore. As to the office, be could assure the committee, that he had done every thing in his power to reduce its expenses, and a considerable reduction had taken place as compared with former years. In 1814, it was 85,000 l.; in 1815, 57,000 l; in 1816, 43,000 l.; in 1817, 34,000 l.; in 1818, 29,000 l.; in 1819, 30,500 l.; in 1820, 29,460 l.; in 1821, 28,860 l.; and in 1822, 26,903 l. Now let the committee consider what was the increase of duties in. the office since 1792. At that time the-whole of the half-pay amounted to 231,000 l., which was paid to 4,707 individuals. In the present year, the whole amount, including allowances to wounded officers, was 1,503,000 l., which was to be paid to nearly 20,000 persons. This, he thought, might account for the great increase of business in the office, and no one, after looking at this increase, would say that the office was ministerial. He would defy the hon. member to discharge the duties of the half-pay alone, with fewer clerks than those now employed. As to the charge of reduction, he would plead guilty to one thing—he had not reduced the salaries of the lower clerks, but he had diminished those of the higher, and he was certain that even this would not please the gentlemen opposite, who, for some reason or other, approved of nothing which was done by gentlemen in office.
Mr. Humedeclared himself unable to see where the great reductions had been made. It was true there was a diminution of charge of 1,908 l. But there were offices with salaries from 1,800 l. to 800 l. a year; and therefore as the higher clerks were only reduced, such a saving was in-

1223
considerable. The pay-office as it was called, paid no money. A person might carry in his pocket all the money paid by that department. They met the demand upon them with a check. The right hon. member found fault with the term ministerial, used by his gallant friend; but in the reports of the finance committees the office was styled a ministerial office, with no control over the public expenditure. He was ready to admit that it was much better ordered since the right hon. gentleman presided over its administration. With respect to the trouble arising from the half-pay affidavits, was there not a form of affidavit always given to persons applying? When payments were to be made, the office, instead of being only open from eleven to two, ought to be open from nine to four, in winter, and longer in summer. The various operations through which an applicant for payment had to pass, certainly rendered it necessary to have a number of clerks. But where existed the necessity for that tedious process of passing from one room to another, and having something to do with at least six different clerks. One active person at the Bank, conversant with powers of attorney, would discharge the whole business. With respect to the prize money and pensions at, Chelsea Hospital, that had nothing to do with the Pay office. The right hon. gentleman was, he was aware, very diligent in his attendance, but he sat there not as the paymaster-general, but as the member of a board. He wished to know whether the simplifying of the public accounts was to extend to any other office but the Treasury.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution "That 4,580 l. be granted to defray the charge of the allowance to the Judge Advocate General, his deputy, clerks, &c."
Mr. Humesaid, he was sorry to find there was no intention to bring back the salary of the judge advocate-general to any thing like what it was formerly. When it was remembered that sir C. Morgan held that situation for so great a length of time, at a salary of 1,300 l. it was evident that 2,500 l. in time of peace must be extravagant. He thought, that a salary of 1,500 l. would be quite sufficient; and would therefore move, that instead of 4,580 l. the vote should be for 3,580 l.
The Solicitor Generalobserved, that office of judge advocate general was a patent place, and had been on its present
1224
footing ever since the Revolution. The duties had considerably increased since that period, and though in the time of sir C. Morgan no addition had been made to the salary, it was not because there was no reason for doing so, but because the large fortune of the individual rendered any addition a matter of no importance to him. But, to consider the question on its fair merits, the office was of the utmost consequence to the army. The lives, fortune, and character of military officers were, in a measure dependant upon the manner in which its duties were fulfilled. The hon. gentleman had said, that those duties were diminished since the peace; but the fact was, that the number of reports made to the advocate general had increased in a three-fold degree since the year 1811. In the course of the last year no less than 400 general courts-martial had taken place. The judge advocate general had to read all the proceedings, and to decide whether the evidence was legal, and according to the practice of courts of law. He had also to advise the commander-in-chief, and the secretary at war upon important occasions, and to afford his advice to officers stationed in the different colonies, upon various topics connected with the administration of military jurisprudence. If he discharged the duties of his office faithfully, not a single day could pass over him, many hours of which must not have been employed. No person could say, that the salary fixed by the administration of Mr. Grenville and Mr. Fox was too much. It was also to be considered, that the duties of the judge advocate for Ireland were now annexed to this office, and that no increase of salary attended this additional labour. The office of judge advocate for Scotland had been also abolished, and its duties were transferred to the judge advocate-general. All this had occurred since 1807, when the present rate of salary was fixed.
Mr. Humecontended, that this was not a patent place, but an office from which the person holding it might be removed at the pleasure of the Crown. The learned gentleman had said, that the rules observed in courts of law were also observed at courts martial. He could as soon be persuaded that black was white, as that the duties of this office were as great in time of peace, as they had been in a period of war.
The Speakersaid, that as he had had

1225
the honour of holding the situation of judge advocate during a period of more than seven years, he might, perhaps, be permitted to trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the committee. He was not one who estimated the importance of an office by the salary attached to it; and, therefore, had the question been confined simply to a reduction of salary, he should have remained silent. It was utterly impossible to measure the difficulties of an office by the salary annexed to it—to take the dimensions of its responsibility by the 1,500 l. or 2,000 l. a year which fell to the lot of the person who held an office. But he was anxious that, to whatever decision the committee came, they should be guided by no counterfeit representations. Much had been said of the consequent diminution of duty by the change from war to peace. He could assure the committee, that the difficulties of that office depended in a very slight degree upon the number of court: martial. The hon. member for Aberdeen had, he thought, mistaken the spirit o the remark of the learned gentleman when he said that this was a paten office. The object of the learned gentleman was, not to spew, that it was therefore beyond the control of parliament, but simply to prove that it was at office of great difficulty, of extensive practice, and that the duties attendant upon it induced his majesty cautiously to consider the talents and the character of the individual to whom it was entrusted. I was not an ordinary office; it was on which gave to its possessor the privilege of demanding a private audience of hi majesty, on all those delicate proceeding which so frequently occurred before courts martial, and the publication c which might be attended with serious consequences. While he had the honour of filling that situation he had endeavoured to make all proceedings before courts-martial resemble each other inform, and to model all their investigations upon the strict rules of evidence. It was perfectly true, that these courts so admirably constituted for the particular end which they had in view, could not regulate their proceedings by the rules and practice of the superior courts; but it was the duty of the judge advocate to revise and reinvestigate these proceedings and to reduce them all to the strict rules of law; and whenever such a case came before him, he had invariably advised the
1226
Crown to decide according to the rule of law. With the assistance of a very valuable coadjutor he sifted the evidence, and ascertained whether it was legal or illegal, and upon that decision he invariably advised the Crown in the course to be pursued towards the accused. With respect to the duties of the office, he could say further, that during the first two years which he had filled this situation, he had not been absent from his office for the space of five weeks altogether, and at no one period for a single fortnight. There did not pass a single day during which he had not held conferences strictly confidential with the commander-in-chief, and with the secretary at war. It was superfluous to add, that the station was one of difficulty, delicacy, and continual occupation, and that it demanded great integrity because its possessor must secure the confidence of the army. If the committee deemed 1,500 l. a year a fair remuneration for the conscientious discharge of those duties, they would vote for the amendment. But he once more protested against the formation of such a decision, upon the mere assertion that the duties of that office nearly ceased at the conclusion of the war.
The committee divided: For the Amendment, 18. Against it, 124.

List of the Minority.

Barrett, S. M.

Monck, J. B.

Creevey, T.

Palmer, C. F.

Chamberlayne, W.

Palmer, col.

Crespigny, sir W. De

Robarts, A.

Ellice, E.

Robarts, col.

Fergusson, sir R.

Bickford, W.

Hume, Joseph

Whitbread, S.

Hobhouse J. C.

TELLER.

James, W.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Lushington, Dr.

On the resolution, "That 13,662 l. 1s. 7d. be granted for the charge of the Royal Military College,"
Mr. Humeasked, what was the reason for keeping up so large a staff at that establishment? There were a governor, a lieutenant-governor, a major, four captains, and so on; in short, the whole staff cost the country 6,000 l. a-year, and merely for superintending the education of a few young men. Though there were now 290 cadets at the college, the whole number admitted into the army between 1816 and 1820 was 160. 'These young men had cost the country 115,280 l., being at the rate of 720 l. for each cadet.

1227
During the last year, out of the 290, there were 44 cadets who had got commissions; but the remaining 246 were still unprovided for. Now, he would ask, what reason there was for educating more than they could provide with commissions? By the routine of the college, one fourth of the number of cadets left it, every year; so that of the 70 thus 1eaying it, as only 44 were provided for, the expense of educating the remaining 36 was thrown away. Why, then, was not the number of admissions to the college limited to the number of commissions which could be given? He observed a nice little item of 2s. 6d. per day for the 290 gentlemen cadets. Why was this sum granted? He supposed for ho other reason than to put them under military law. The hon. member pointed out the impropriety of having 29 different professors to superintend the education of these 290 young gentlemen. The salaries of the governor and deputy-governor might be reduced without any detriment to the establishment. He should Move for the reduction of this vote by 5,000 l., which would leave it 8,661 l. 1s. 7d. He would not point out the particulars on which this reduction ought to be made, but would leave it entirely to the noble lord's discretion.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, the hon. member had acted most fairly in his opposition to this grant, for his argument did not so much tend to say that the establishment was too great a charge upon the public as to break it down by degrees altogether. The question, therefore, was, whether, as it was necessary to keep up a standing army, there should or should not, exist a place in which the officers of it could be properly qualified. He would not argue the necessity of professional instruction for military men, because it was evident, that unless the army was officered by gentlemen who knew the theory and practice of the art which they professed, the bravery of our soldiers would be quite ineffectual. If, then, it was necessary to have a college at all, the staff now employed on it was not too large. The students, from their particular age, being scarcely men, and no longer boys, were peullarly difficult to manage, and would become quite unmanageable, unless there Were some military men of rank and experience, to control them. The noble ford then contended that the admissions to the college were not more numerous
1228
than they ought to be; and defended the college, by a reference to a similar institution in the United States; that land of freedom, which, young as it was, could not exist without a standing army. What proportion did the committee think the number of the cadets in America bore to the standing army of that country? As 272, to 5,000; while in England it was 290 to 60,000.
After a short conversation, the committee divided: For the Amendment, 26. Against it, 75. The original resolution was then agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Bankes, H.

Lambton, J. G.

Barrett, S. B. M.

Aishington, Dr.

Bernal, R

Macdonald, J.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Normanby, vis.

Benett, J.

Palmer, E.

Birch, J.

Ricardo, D.

Blake, sir F.

Robarts, A.

Bright, H.

Robinson, sir G.

Bruce, R.

Webbe, E.

Crespigny, sir W. De

Whitbread, S.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Wilson, sir H. W.

Hume, J.

TELLER.

James, W.

Monck, J. B.

Jervoise, G. P.