Commons Sitting of 30 May 1821

DELAYS IN THE COURT OF CHANCERY, AND IN THE APPELLANT JURISDICTION.
Mr. M. A. Taylor*began by stating, that no real friend to the judicial establishments of the country could look with indifference to the arrear of business so continually to be found on the appeal paper of the House of Lords; that, as far as it respected the suitors, it was altogether ruinous and oppressive, and in reference to the tribunal itself it was highly derogatory to the character it should sustain, and greatly diminished its value and importance. Nor could the state of the Court of Chancery be less a matter of disappointment and regret. In the prosecution of any just, or in the resistance of any unfounded claim, what years of agonizing suspense were passed between the first commencement of a suit and its final termination! Many had not survived to witness the decision of their causes: and the recovery of a scarcely questionable right had often been followed by the destruction of one-third of the property in dispute. He would put it to the conscience of every impartial man, whether he had overcharged the picture, or had given it too dark a colouring. In
*From the original edition, printed for T. Egerton, Whitehall.
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truth, the system had outgrown itself, which, in the beginning of the last century might have been fully adequate to meet the exigencies which the intervention of equity was originally 'intended to relieve, was now unable to sustain the pressure and disentangle itself from the difficulties which an increased circulation of the capital of the country, a consequent change of property, and other concurrent circumstances, had brought within the scope of its jurisdiction. He observed too, that the House of Peers had in its capacity as a judicial body undergone a considerable change, not from any dereliction of those honourable feelings, or from a want of that liberal education, which made our ancestors look up to them as the depositories of law in its last resort, but from a total inability on their part to unravel the intricacies of those questions which were brought so continually under their discussion, to the understanding of which neither their habits, their studies, or their inclination could be supposed to lead them. The name indeed of the tribunal still existed with all those harassing delays which marked the character of its proceedings, but its original cast was either obliterated or changed. It was therefore of moment to enquire, whether without endangering the substance you might pot more effectually secure the duties it was called upon to perform, and give that virtual relief to the subject, which, upon every sound principle of the constitution, he had an undoubted right to demand. If the mode of administering the justice of the country was defective; if the interruptions that accompanied its progress placed at an almost immeasurable distance the decisions that were sought for; and if in the mean time the parties were overwhelmed with indefinite and intolerable expense, he contended that it was worse than folly to persevere in such a course. It would have been well for the people, if the House of Lords, in the enquiry that took place before a select committee of their own, had placed the whole subject manfully before them, and had entered into every inveterate feature of the evil, unawed by any difficulties they might encounter in their way, and undisturbed by any imaginary fears which prejudice might create or a mistaken policy impart. But in that investigation, the origin of the mischief was kept wholly out of sight; and though an attempt was made in this

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House of Parliament to give it publicity and effect, the voice of the minister crushed it almost in the outset. The committee appointed in 1811 by the casting vote of the Speaker was reluctantly permitted to disclose the arrear which had been gradually creeping on for years in those two courts; but the cause of that arrear was too sacred to be approached, and the revival of the committee in the ensuing session of parliament was only a signal for its premature dissolution; the majority of its members, who were in a great degree connected with the government of the day, refused to enter into that part of the reference which d
irected them to enquire what it was that retarded the decision of suits in the Court of Chancery; and as their determination was afterwards confirmed by a vote of the House, on the ground of delicacy towards the presiding judge, all further investigation was at an end.*
It was not imputed to him, as the original mover of the question, that his view of the subject was too highly charged, or that the general or immediate Consequences that flowed from it, were less afflicting than he had represented them. It was, therefore, necessary that some different ground of objection should be started as an inducement to the House to withhold their assent to his proposition, which went to the direct examination of persons in the daily habits of professional practice, who might, by their evidence, enable them to explore the real source of the delay. He had then difficulties to contend with of no ordinary cast. The known hostility of the first law officer of the Crown to the adoption of any measure which might lead to an alteration of the system, either in his own immediate court, or in that of the appellant jurisdiction, could not but influence the government to throw every impediment in the way of those who were anxious to correct
*In consequence of the refusal alluded to, a motion was made in the House 6th May, 1812, "that it be a special instruction to the committee appointed to enquire into the causes that retarded the decisions of suits in the high court of chancery, to examine persons practising at the bar, as well as solicitors in the said court, touching the causes of the delay." This motion was negatived; the numbers being, for the motion 20, against it, 84. See First Series, vol. 23, p. 57
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the abuses which they steadily maintained to have existed for so long a space of time. He was aware that these difficulties were in no respect diminished, but he should not on that account recede from the part he had taken, or suffer so momentous a question to slip from under him without a struggle. He knew that he stood upon a rock, from which no power could dislodge him, and which no effort of ministers could undermine. In order to put gentlemen in possession of the grievance as far as respected the House of Lords, he adverted to the state of their cause paper, as reported by the select committee of the Commons in June 1811. The appeals and writs of error then waiting to be heard, amounted in the whole to 338. Many of these had been presented several sessions back, and upon a fair average of the rate at which their lordships had of late proceeded in disposing of the business before them, it was admitted that this list could not be got rid of under a less period than that of nine years—by the subsequent creation of a vice-chancellor, which gave to the lord chancellor the means and opportunity of sitting three days a-week in the House of Lords, this arrear has been gradually reduced; indeed it was most essential that some immediate steps should have been resorted to. Whether the plan brought forward on that occasion, was a measure of sound policy or not, he would not at the present moment stop to consider; but he felt himself called upon to inform the House that there was still a formidable account behind, an account which could not, upon any principle, be justified, and which therefore ought not to be permitted to continue. On an inspection of the proper document, it would appear that 172 causes still remained upon their lordships' paper, 135 of which had been regularly appointed for hearing, and 37 of that number were not as yet set down for the purpose. Owing to the length and importance of some particular cases which had been argued before their lordships, little progress had been made in those appeals which were presented in 1818; and as the session was near its close, a much further reduction could not be rationally expected. Here he could not refrain from pressing upon the consideration of gentlemen, the mischief which further discovered itself by the conduct which their lordships occasionally had recourse to, viz. that of giving preference

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to a particular description of causes. Upon whatever ground the justification of this practice might be attempted, it fell with peculiar hardship upon those whose appeals were known to have been for years upon the paper, and whose relative interests were, to the parties themselves, equally valuable and important. He begged leave to draw the attention of the House to a report of their own committee in 1812, as to the state of the court of Chancery of England. At the end of the sittings after Hilary Term in the same year, there were in the chancellor's paper, 109 original causes, and 39 appeals from the decisions of Sir William Grant, then master of the Rolls. The introduction of the office of vice-chancellor took place not many months after. To suppose that nothing had been gained by an establishment of that description, in aid of the ordinary operations of the court, would be as ridiculous as it must turn out to be untrue. It was most certain, that causes had been disposed of to a very extensive amount, and that the interlocutory proceedings had been materially dispatched, and by these means a particular class of suitors had been greatly benefitted, and the chancellor relieved. But the question was, whether upon the aggregate, giving every just credit to the person who holds the situation of vice-chancellor, the expectations of those who supported the measure or the views of the noble lord himself, lord Eldon, who was so strong an advocate for the plan, have been answered. Whether, in point of fact, a great part of the arduous duty before attached to the great seal does not revert back to the chancellor, in the shape of appeal, with this difference only, that it comes before him in a more objectionable form, inasmuch as it creates additional delay, and enhances the bitter reckoning of the costs. It was in no way derogatory, he said, to the abilities of the former vice-chancellor, Sir Thomas Plumer, or to the knowledge of the present vice-chancellor, Sir J. Leach, that their judgments were in numerous instances the subjects of appeal. It was natural that a plaintiff, who had set down his cause for the express purpose of its being heard before the chancellor, should be discontented with a decree, pronounced against him by a judge whose opinion he never sought. The same disposition to appeal in both parties will manifest itself in all the interlocutory proceedings that
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are occasionally before that court. It was with the impression on his mind, that the time of the lord chancellor would be thus exhausted by appeals, that he (Mr. T.) had endeavoured, on different occasions, to persuade the House to remove from the great seal all jurisdiction in matters of bankruptcy, as this did not in earlier times constitute a part of the labours imposed upon the chancellor, and the work now pressed so heavily upon him as generally to occupy some portion of his day. Of this, a reference to the evidence in the Appendix to the Reports of 1811, and 1812, would sufficiently convince the House.*
But it was here necessary, he said, to revert to the present state of the court, as far as he was able to collect it. In doing this, he was under some difficulty from the refusal of the Register to afford any information without an order from the House; and looking to the advanced period of the session, he did not deem it prudent to wait till the returns moved for by his hon. friend (Mr. Calcraft), were laid upon, the table; however, he thought he could not be far wrong as to the state of the Court. With the exception of a few reserved for the Chancellor, all the original causes commencing with the year 1812, have been taken by the vice-chancellor. But to satisfy gentlemen, how much the time of lord Eldon must be occupied by appeals alone, so as absolutely to prevent his giving the necessary dispatch to the other business of the court, he need only give one instance: A cause, which related to the title of some charity estates, was set down in Easter term, 1812; and it remains still unheard. Being within the last twelve, it has been in the paper for two years; and from that time the counsel, solicitor, and clerks in court are entitled to their fees for attendance, which, in addition to the charge for term-fees, may be calculated for both
*In Mr. Taylor's attempt to remove from the jurisdiction of the great seal all matters in bankruptcy, he was supported by the opinions of the late sir Samuel Romilly; a man whose abilities as a statesman and whose transcendent powers as a lawyer could only be surpassed by the dignified independence of his mind and the spotless tenor of his life. His name can never die.
***

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parties at no less a sum than 120 l. a year. The appeals from the Rolls and the vice-chancellor's court amounted at present to 116. That gentlemen might have a just estimate of the hardship thus accruing to the suitors, he would ask permission to direct their attention to a paper he held in his hand, which was a copy of the chancellor's appeal paper, for the 19th of May. The first on the list was an appeal from a decree of sir William Grant's, made in August, 1812. But as this cause had been once taken out of the paper by the parties themselves, he should not draw any inference from it. He would only take notice of the last cause in the list, because he knew that the individuals concerned in it were most anxious to obtain the judgment. That was an appeal from the late master of the Rolls, in February, 1814, and in passing his eye over those that preceded it, he might with safety hazard his belief, that most, if not all of them, were of as long a standing. There were, he feared, appeals from the vice-chancellor's court remaining nearly from the time of the first establishment of the court. He was himself aware of one, which was lodged so early as November, 1814, and it now stood 36 off. And he knew of another in nearly a similar situation. He could bring forward many more, he assured the House, but the parties were so alarmed at the apprehension of any disclosure that might be supposed to emanate from themselves, that he would wait till the returns he had before alluded to, were regularly delivered in, and then he could speak with greater certainty as to what actually was the general state of business in every department of the court.
But the House must not be led to imagine that the appeals from the vice-chancellor's court were limited to those which he had mentioned as entered in the registrar's book, and which were placed there to await a convenient season for their being introduced into the regular paper appropriated to that purpose. Almost every second day there was some important question brought before the chancellor in the shape of motion or appeal from this newly-erected tribunal, and which arose out of the interlocutory proceedings of that court—there was no end of the work thus thrown upon the Great Seal, and no exertion of human industry was capable of performing it.—The fault he conceived was in the system, and he would
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take the liberty of offering his reason for that opinion. The delivery of the great Seal to the distinguished individual on whom it was conferred, made him at once a politician and a judge. He was, in fact, one of the chief ministers of the Crown, liable to all the interruptions and anxieties inseparable from such a situation.—His time was not at his own command—he was summoned at a moment's notice, from the bench to the cabinet, or called to assist at a council in the immediate presence of his sovereign. His note-book was closed on a sudden, and the discussion of a claim, on the issue of which thousands might depend, was hastily interrupted and reserved for another sitting. He defied even the discriminating faculties of lord Eldon to follow the arguments of the advocate as he ought to do, under such circumstances as these, and great as were the powers of his mind, they must, in some degree, yield to the disadvantages he had to contend with. It was to the union of these two characters, which ought ever to be kept separate and distinct, that the evil of protracted suits might, in a great measure, be ascribed. The attention of a man, who had so extensive and so complicated a range of judicial functions to perform, should be confined exclusively to his own court; he should never be permitted to travel out of it. Were gentlemen aware of the vast interests that hang solely upon the opinion of this individual? To give them some insight into the magnitude and importance of these interests, he would assert that one-fourth of the property of the country was within the grasp of the court of chancery. He requested gentlemen to turn to a paper which he had moved for some years ago, containing an account of money then standing in the name of the accountant-general, and he did not suppose it was likely that there was now any diminution of its amount. It was curious to observe the progressive increase of this fund. The paper disclosed the effects of the suitors as placed in the Bank of England, beginning with the year 1756, and ending with the year 1818. Without going through the detail, it would be found that in 17.56, the aggregate only amounted to2,864,975 l. 16 s. 1d.; in 1818 it had reached the enormous height of 33,534,520 l. 0s. 10 d.*
*Return from the Accountant-general's office to the House of Commons, April, 1819.

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He had no doubt that half of this money belonged to infants and lunatics, deposited there most properly for safe custody; but he was well satisfied that the other half had been, or still was, the subject of dispute; and here he ought to remark, that there must be many, very many, small sums, making in the whole a large total, the property of persons who had a strict right to the enjoyment of it, but the expense of extracting which, must nearly equal the sum itself, and render it not worth their while to apply for it. Gentlemen would bear in mind that this species of loss fell entirely upon those who could ill afford to lose what, in reality, was their own. To the vast sums in the hands of the accountant-general, must be added that mass of real estate under the superintendence of the respective masters of the court; the concerns of which were controlled and audited by them, subject to the revision of the chancellor himself, upon any litigated or doubtful points. But the business of the court did not rest here. Innumerable were the questions brought forward for decision, where no money was deposited, and probably no reference made. These were cases arising out of the construction of wills—the peculiar nature of trusts—the doctrine and designation of uses—injunctions to stay waste—the specific performance of agreements, and a variety of other points with which there was no occasion to trouble the House at that moment. He would ask what other court in Westminster-hall embraced so wide a field of action; nay, he would venture to say, that put the business of the three courts of common law together, it would not amount to that which issues out of subjects connected with the jurisdiction of the chancellor; and yet these judges are separated from all political intercourse with the Crown or its servants, and are studiously kept apart from interfering in the executive government of the country. They are independent of every thing relating to it. When he used the word independence, he wished not to limit the term to independence of mind, or to the circumstances of private fortune; he meant to imply in it, the absence of all other engagements and of all other concerns, except those which fell under their own immediate care and cognizance. The administration of what is called equity, as far as it related to the persons who are to dispense it, should stand upon the same
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footing, and as far as possible be governed by the same principles.
There was another wide and well protected nursery for delay, to which he must particularly advert. He meant the different tribunals before which the suitors may be carried: these tribunals were still parts of the same establishment, and the power of revision was with the superior judge. From the master of the rolls, and from the vice-chancellor, there was an appeal to the chancellor. Appeals were not confined to causes of extraordinary moment; they might be made, and, in point of fact, were made in various interlocutory matters; and the consequence was, as might be well imagined, additional expense and additional inconvenience. But he would not fatigue the House by recurring to that part of his argument, as he trusted that he had before fully satisfied them of the strength and application of it, and it was for gentlemen to decide whether some legislative steps should not be resorted to, in order to free the suitors from the desolating ruin, to which their property, their peace, and their happiness were thus exposed. Surely we were not to shape our ideas of tyranny and misrule, so as to narrow them to the infliction of bodily pain, the fetters of the gaoler, or the unwholesome damp of a dungeon; did the torture of the mind weigh nothing in the scale of wretchedness, when almost existence itself waited upon the slow, the nearly insensible progress of a court, and upon decisions protracted, from term to term, and from year to year? He would, however, dwell no longer on this point; but leave it, as he might safely do, to the unbiassed judgment of mankind. He was sure they would agree with him, that few entered the court of chancery without alarm, and that none escaped from it without suffering. In endeavouring to lay a ground for remodelling the method of administering the justice of this court, he solicited the calm attention of gentlemen to the more enviable situation of the suitors, when the great seal had been at different times in commission. This had happened in two instances within his own recollection. At the period of the first, the commission of 1783, when lord Loughborough presided, he practised at the bar himself, and had an opportunity of witnessing the dispatch with which the business was conducted, and the satisfaction that everywhere followed it. Many of the

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cases were decided as soon as the arguments of counsel were finished; and even in causes of the greatest intricacy, the judgment was scarcely ever protracted beyond the period of three or four days. As to the second instance, he could not speak from his own personal knowledge, but he would repeat what he had heard from an intimate friend of his, Mr. Justice Wilson, whose name was included in the commission of 1792. His late majesty had commanded lord chief baron Eyre, the principal commissioner at that time, and his two coadjutors, to appear before him at Buckingham-house, on a particular day, at 2 o'clock, to restore the Seal, that it might be given into the hands of lord Loughborough. When introduced into the presence, the king inquired of them the state in which they had left the business of the court; the answer was, that if the hour at which his majesty had commanded their attendance, had been 4 o'clock instead of two, the last cause on that day's paper would have been decided, the counsel for the plaintiff being in the act of replying, when they were obliged to leave the court, by the express direction of his majesty. It was here worthy of remark-as a strong confirmation of what he had advanced, that when lord Loughborough had been some months in possession of the great seal, and to his judicial labours were superadded his political and parliamentary duties, he was unable to keep down the arrear, though he confessedly displayed the same professional talents, and the same activity and zeal, as before when first commissioner. He called the particular attention of the House to this, as a proof that until a change was effected in the mode of administering justice in this court, no stretch of intellect, combined with the greatest legal acquirements, could overcome the pressure of such arduous, mixed, and incompatible duties. He assured the House, that no man was more tremblingly alive than himself, to the difficulty of proposing any plan for a different arrangement of the judicial functions of the court of chancery: however, he would risk his opinions, not from a vain conceit that they were such as the House would approve, but in the hope that they might awaken the attention of others more competent to pursue this great question, and redeem the character of the legislature, by substituting what was practicable and just, in the room of that which, he would not scruple to de-
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nominate cruel and oppressive. He suggested the propriety of consolidating the three tribunals now subsisting in this court into one; by dispensing with the office of the master of the rolls, and repealing the bill allowing the appointment of a vice-chancellor. He would then erect another court, consisting of four judges, the chancellor for the time being, constituting a part in the commission, and being considered as the head of the court, though he was not to be called upon to interfere in its general business, unless in cases where the judges were divided in their opinions. The bills that were filed, would of course be addressed to him, as they are always addressed to the chancellor of the exchequer on the equity side of that court. As the chancellor would under this arrangement be relieved from all appeals in his own court, he would leave to him, in the way he now possesses it, the whole jurisdiction in matters of bankruptcy. The patronage of the departments of the court would remain untouched, and the prize so much relied upon, as the great excitement to brilliant exertion continue as splendid as before. There were minor subjects of detail which he should not weary the House by discussing; these related to what he thought most desirable in every point of view, such as fixing proportionate salaries for the chancellor himself, as well as for the judges, instead of fees and emoluments, in every shape objectionable. This regulation ought equally to extend to the masters and other officers of the court. He humbly contended that the plan, the outline of which he had been induced to lay before the House, would be efficacious as to dispatch; that it would, in a great degree, remove the wish and anxiety for appealing, and thus most essentially contribute to diminish the expenses of the suitors; it would take away altogether the intermediate appeal to the chancellor, leaving such appeal to the House of Lords only. The chancellor would have full leisure to discharge his arduous duties as Speaker of the House of Lords, and the appellant from the court of chancery of England, as those from other courts, would have a real and substantial appeal in lieu of that, which, without the gratuitous and honourable attendance of lord Redesdale, was now become a mockery and a farce. He knew it might be argued, that the bill, empowering the chief baron of the exchequer to sit alone in equity,

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made against the idea of a plurality of judges; but he was prepared to show that the case was not parallel, and that the courts bore no resemblance to each other on this particular point. He felt conscious of his own inability, and he should not therefore have intruded any notions of his own, if it had not been his object to call forth the sentiments of others, on the nature and magnitude of the evil he had placed before the House, an evil which no man could venture to extenuate or disguise. He would say to both sides of the House, and particularly to that which took the lead in the administration of the country,
——Si quid novisti rectius istis,
Candidus imperti; si non, his utere mecum.
He implored of gentlemen not to dismiss from their most serious consideration, a question of such vital interest as this was to the community at large, because, on the first view of the plan, they might regard it as visionary and novel. He was far from being so confident in himself as not to suspect that there were faults in the arrangement he had submitted to their view, and he should not therefore press them that evening for a decision; but he thought it due to the people who had suffered so long the severe inflictions of delay, that the House should, in an open and manly manner, declare that they would, in the next session of parliament, attempt the redress of wrongs so evident as to their existence, and so appalling in their nature; without this avowal on their part, he did not see how gentlemen could lay their hands on their hearts and say, with any truth, that they had acted in the spirit of that famous statute of their ancestors, which, in the face of the world; spoke these memorable words—"Nulli negabimus aut differemus, Rectum aut Justitiam." He would now beg leave to move, "That this House will, early in the next session of parliament, take into its most serious consideration the present state of the High Court of Chancery of England, as well as that of the Appellant Jurisdiction of the House of Lords, with a view to the adoption of such measures as will tend in future to facilitate the general business of those courts."
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that although parliament sometimes pledged itself as to the course it would take in a subsequent session, it should never do so without great caution; and he thought they
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should hesitate to do so in the present case, because the resolution countenanced the opinion that there was something wrong in the Court of Chancery, and that a practical remedy had been proposed. He was not at that time capable of forming an opinion as to the sweeping remedy which had been proposed. As far as the appeal business of the House of Lords was concerned, he understood that the establishment of the vice-chancellor's court had been eminently successful. As to the original business of the court, he understood that it was never less in arrear than at present. He suggested that it would be advisable to withdraw the motion, especially as much information on the subject, which had been moved for by the hon. member for Wareham, was not yet on the table. If the hon. gentleman persisted in his motion, he should move the previous question.
The Attorney-Generalwished to say a few words in reply to the reflections which his hon. friend had cast upon the learned lord who presided in the Court of Chancery. His hon. friend had said, that there were the same arrears in cases of bankruptcy and original causes, at present, as there had been before the creation of the Vice-chancellor's court. Now this was by no means the fact, as there were no original causes and no cases of bankruptcy, at this moment, in arrear. There had been an increase of appeals to the lord chancellor, but that was to be attributed to the desire which every man felt to have his case decided by the great talents and learning of that learned lord. No decisions had been, or would hereafter, be more respected than those of the learned judge who now presided in the Court of Chancery,
Mr. Lockhartsaid, that the delay, if such it might be called, arose out of the mechanism of the court. It was a most severe hardship upon every small legatee, in case of dispute, to be obliged to file a bill in chancery, which perhaps cost him more than his legacy; or to abandon his claim altogether. Justice was thus denied, and dishonesty promoted. The mere statement of such a grievance ought to induce the House to pledge itself to inquire.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowcontended, that it might be dangerous, at this late period of the session, for the House to pledge itself to inquire. The course of argument adopted by the last speaker, rather

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went to show, that the court of chancery, in its present form at least, ought to be abolished altogether, than that any attempt should be made to introduce a reform into it. With regard to the increase of business, it was not to be wondered at that the arrears were considerable, considering the immense increase of property of late years, and the number as well as the variety of questions which that increase had produced. He approved of the previous question moved, as it ought not to be held out to the public, in the interval between the two sessions, that great evils would result, or ever had resulted, from the present practice of the Court of chancery.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that the House was called upon to pledge itself to inquiry, more especially after what had just been said by the learned member, who Wondered that the enormous arrears now complained of had not been still greater, recollecting the vast increase of property. It was admitted on all hands that an abler chancellor could not be found; and as all agreed on his merits, surely a better opportunity could not be chosen than the present for commencing the investigation.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, that one-half of the appeals now before the Lords were of four years standing. This being the case, he would appeal to the House, whether the system pursued by the Court of Chancery was not ruinous and vexatious? All that he asked was an assurance, that, at a proper period, the subject should be taken in to consideration.
The previous question being put, "That the question be now put," the House divided: Ayes, 52; Noes 56. Majority against Mr. Taylor's motion, 4.

PRIVILEGE OF PARLIAMENT—CREDITORS OF Mr. CHRISTIE BURTON.
Mr. Stuart-Wortleyrose to submit a motion, the object of which was, to indemnify the Creditors of Mr. Christie Burton, member for Beverley in the last parliament, for loss occasioned to them by an order of that House, in support of its privileges. The House would recollect that Mr. Burton was confined in the Fleet for debt at the time of his election, and that he was shortly after set at liberty, in consequence of an application by letter to the Speaker. The creditors commenced an action against the warden of the Fleet for an escape, and that act was declared
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by the House to be a high breach of privilege; but the creditors were excused from attending at the bar of the House to answer for their conduct, on condition of withdrawing the suit. Now, as the law at present stood, when a party was released from a debt by a competent authority, there was an end to the debt. He had looked into the act of James 1st, which arose out of the case of sir T. Shirley, who was taken in execution, after he had taken his seat in that House. That act gave a power to the creditor to sue out execution again within a certain time after the privilege of the debtor had ceased, but the construction of the act applied only to persons who were taken in execution after their election, and not to those who were actually in execution at the time of their election. The amount of the debt due to these creditors of Mr. Burton was 1,000 l. and the whole expenses which they had incurred might be estimated at 2,000 l. more. Under all the circumstances, he should move, "That the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of an Address to his Majesty to grant a sum of Money by way of compensation for the loss occasioned to certain Creditors of Mr. Christie Burton, member for Beverley in the last Parliament in support of Us Privileges." This he considered a mere act of justice to the individuals, but his object went still farther; for he wished hereafter to submit a substantive motion to the House for the purpose of rendering persons ineligible to a seat in that House who were actually in execution for debt at the time of their offering themselves as candidates.
Mr. Wynnsaw no reason whatever why Mr. Burton's creditors did not again arrest him, except that having on the former occasion had him for six years in custody, they thought it better now to risk an application to parliament than to proceed by a second arrest, after experiencing the inefficacy of the first. He was utterly at a loss to see what doubt could be raised upon the words of the act of James 1st. There could be no doubt that the creditors had their remedy still against Mr. Burton. With respect to the intention of the hon. member to render ineligible persons in execution for debt, he thought the qualification already required was a sufficient general control. That was, however, too grave a question, to be incidentally discussed. If such had been the law, the House could have

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been easily, in past times, deprived of the services of some of the greatest ornaments on both sides of it.
Mr. S. Wortleymaintained, that the act of James 1st confined the liability of being taken under a new writ to persons who were taken in execution subsequently to their election. In all the cases previous to that time, the persons declared to be entitled to privilege, had been arrested subsequently to their election. Mr. Burton had the means, if he chose, of paying his debts, for he was a man of considerable property. As to his six years confinement, it was merely nominal, for at the time of his supposed imprisonment, he had himself seen that gentleman at Doncaster races.
Mr. Baringagreed that there was abundant reason for not granting any compensation to the individuals in question. He confessed, however, that he saw no difficulty in dealing with this privilege, as it was called, in such a way as would preserve what was valuable in it to the House, and at the same time prevent it from becoming a source of fraud between individuals. The present case was not the first of the kind; for some years ago an individual had succeeded in making his way out of the King's-bench through that House, and had afterwards quitted the kingdom. He thought there would be no difficulty in enacting, that if any member should plead privilege in exemption of arrest, within a given time after his election, his seat should become ipso facto void.
The motion was negatived.

IRISH TREASURY BILLS.
Mr. Maberlyrose to bring forward his promised motion with regard to the interest paid upon Irish Treasury-bills, compared to that upon Exchequer bills. The Treasury bills in Ireland were to raise money for the public uses, in the same manner as the Exchequer bills; but they were not sold in open market in Ireland, as the Exchequer bills were in this country; and were issued, he presumed, by special favour as the Bank of Ireland thought proper. In 1815, the unfunded debt of Ireland was about 2,500,000 l.; in 1816, 2,500,000 l.; in 1817,5,000,000 l.; in 1818, it exceeded 5,600,000 l.; and in 1819 it was nearly 5,000,000 l. Up to 1818, the Bank received 5 per cent interest upon these bills; and in 1819 and 1820, they had 4 per cent. In the early part of 1815, the rate
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of interest upon Exchequer bills was 3½d. per diem; or 5l. 6s. 3d. per cent per arm. In the latter part of that year it was 3¼d. or 4l. 18 s. 10 d. In 1816, it was 3d. in 1817, it was 2½d. or 3l.16 s. 2d. per ann.; and afterwards, in the same year, 2d. or 3l. 0s. 10 d. On the sale of these bills, too, it must be observed, that the government expected a premium of 5s. which of course ought to be considered in abatement of the interest. From the course pursued, he calculated that the public had lost in 1816, near 12,500 l.; in 1817, 92,000 l.; in 1818, 125,000 l.; in 1819, 109,000 l.; in 1820, 94,000 l.; forming a total of upwards of 400,000 l. in a few years, and being nearly equal to 500,000 l., which the Bank of Ireland lent at 4 per cent upon the renewal of their charter. His present object was prospective, and in the hope of preventing, in future transactions, an expenditure which he thought need not be incurred, he would move, "That it is expedient that the same rate of Interest should be paid on Irish Treasury Bills as on Exchequer Bills."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was but fair that Ireland should be placed in as advantageous a situation as this country, with respect to loans, and it certainly was not in a better. Upon the repeal of the war taxes in 1816 government was under the necessity of making a loan from the Bank of Ireland, the capital of which had since been reduced from five to one million, while the interest had been reduced from five to four per cent, and if the remaining one million were now to be paid off, a loss would be incurred upon the exchange of at least two per cent, by which, of course, the public would suffer, although the means of paying it off might be borrowed at 3 per cent. By this proceeding also it would be recollected that one million must be taken from the circulation of England to be transferred to Ireland. The interest upon the unfunded debt had been reduced from five to three per cent, which reduction had produced a saving to the country of no less than 600,000 l. a year.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that if a wise policy were pursued, there would be no necessity for the Banks of Ireland or England holding the Treasury bills in question, at a rate of interest different from that;, at which the merchants of London were paid. If there was a man who could say conscientiously that the public ought to pay

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12,000 l. a year more to the Bank of Ireland than would be required to pay other individuals, for holding these bills, he would give up his motion.
The House divided: 64. Ayes, 31; Noes, 64.

List of the Minority.

Baring, A.

Maberly, J.

Bury, lord

Moore, P.

Becher, W. W.

Martin, J.

Bernal, R.

Newport, sir J.

Chaloner, R.

Philips, G.

Colborne, R.

Philips, J.

Calvert, N.

Robinson, sir G.

Davies, col.

Smith, J.

Evans, W.

Smith, W.

Gordon, R.

Mackintosh, sir J.

Grattan, J.

Scarlett, J.

Hornby, E.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Hume, J.

Wood, alderman

James, W.

Whitbread, S. C.

Lockhart, J. J.

TELLERS.

Milton, lord

Grant, J. P.

Monck, J. B.

Maberly, J.

GRAMFOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
Lord Milton, in rising to move that the House do agree to the Lords' Amendments in this bill, thought it necessary to say a few words, in order to guard himself from being supposed to prefer the present state of the bill to the state in which it was when it left that House. He thought it would have been much better had the franchise been transferred to Leeds; but, considering that the main object of the bill was not so much the substitution of any particular place, as the disfranchisement of Grampound, he should be sorry to propose any proceeding that might lead to the loss of the bill altogether. He hoped, however, that on some future occasion a measure might be adopted better calculated to repair the defects in our representative system, and to preserve the balance which ought to be maintained between the various interests of the country. The present was the fourth bill of a similar character, which increased the weight of the landed interest in that House. Now, with all his natural partiality for the landed interest, he was decidedly of opinion that the House ought not to legislate in a way which might give to any individual interest an undue preponderance.
Mr. Wynnsaid, he regretted the alterations made in the bill. As the Lords had agreed to the disfranchisement of Grampound, be thought it would have been
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better if they had sent down a separate bill mentioning the place to which they wished the franchise to be transferred. He thought the situation of the county of York, unless divided into two counties would be rendered much worse by having to elect four representatives in place of two. It would afford opportunities, of keeping open the poll, when there was no hope or chance of success. It was likely, too, that the West Riding would return all the four members, inasmuch as 14,000 polled there at the last election, and only 8,000 in the North and East riding. He wished, therefore, that the bill might be sent back to the Lords with an amendment, the object of which would be to provide that the West riding, including the city of York, should send two representatives to parliament, and the East and North riding two more. They might state at the same time that they did not insist on the amendment, and by that means incur no risk of losing the bill.
Mr. Stuart Wortleysaid, that the House of Lords had placed them in a more cruel situation than they had ever before stood in. The question originally was, whether the elective franchise should be extended to the county of York, or given to the town of Leeds. That House had solemnly decided in favour of the latter proposition. The Lords had, however, entirely changed the bill. They said, "You shall not have two burgesses, but you shall have two knights of the shire." Now, he would ask whether, in a case affecting the rights of the Commons, the Lords ought to have made a change of such magnitude, without the most serious consideration. He would contend that by the alteration made in this bill the peers had added greatly to their influence. He would say that a greater misfortune could not happen to the county of York than the having four representatives in parliament. Looking, however, to the bill, he could not give it his sanction, for the mere purpose of securing the principle on which it was founded. It was a measure which satisfied nobody, not even those who were most favourable to reform. Their better course would be to reject this bill, to agree to a second for the disfranchisement of Grampound, and afterwards to consider to what place the elective franchise should; be granted.
The Marquis of Londonderryadmitted* that this was a case of considerable difficulty. For his own part, he did not think

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that the course pursued by the Lords was at all objectionable. In acting as they had done, the Lords had merely exercised their legislative power to give to the measure which had been sent to them that shape which the expedience of the case seemed to require. His hon. friend would wish merely to extinguish the right of voting in Grampound, and that being done, he would leave the other question to be settled afterwards. This would be most unwise, because he did not think that the other House had bound itself to the extinction of the right of electing two members for Grampound, without pointing out a place for which two members might be returned in their room, Will respect to the objections of his learned friend (Mr. Wynn), he would only observe, that if they passed the present bill, it could not be considered ah irrevocable measure. If his learned friend came forward next session, and pointed out the means by which two additional members might be elected for Yorkshire, in a manner more eligible than that which was now proposed, he did not think that the House would be precluded from agreeing to that bill, by voting for the bill now before the House. Parliament would separate with more credit to itself by agreeing to the bill in its present shape, than they would do if they rejected it, and waited till another session, although that were to bring forth the most perfect measure that the human mind could imagine.
Lord J. Russellsaid, the question was, whether or not the bill, as amended, was so ill adapted to its object, that it would be well to reject it. The object was first to reform the borough of Grampound, and then to transfer the right of returning two representatives to another place. It had been decided that the borough was corrupt, and that the elective franchise should be transferred to some other place, and to this the Lords had agreed. The Commons had proposed to give the franchise to the borough of Leeds, the Lords decided that it should be transferred to the large county of York. Now, though he wished that Leeds should return two members to parliament, he was still of opinion that more members ought to be given to the county of York. He was therefore content that the bill as amended should pass; but in a future session, he proposed to call the attention of the House to the claims of large towns to send members to that House.
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The amendments were agreed to. After which, lord Milton gave notice that he would tomorrow move for leave to bring in a bill "for facilitating the taking of the Poll on contested Elections for the County of York."

THE CONSTITUTIONAL ASSOCIATION.
Mr. Broughamrose to call the attention of the House once more to a society, the existence and nature of which he had occasion upon a former evening to bring under its notice. If he was then disposed to view with alarm what he saw In this association, he viewed with still greater anxiety the proceedings that had since been avowed by it. He held in his hand a letter which had been distributed among all the members, and which purported to be a copy of another letter, a circular, that this self-constituted body of prosecutors had thought proper to issue—to whom did the House think? To the magistrates of England. It came from "The Bridge-street Committee." The "Bridge-street Committee" (as if they were, of course, well known to all the kingdom), had erected themselves into a body, and issued circulars only to all the magistrates of England. And what was their object? First, to expound to the magistrates the law of the land in matters of libel. They inclosed in this circular a copy of a pamphlet, composed under their auspices, and containing their digest of this law, for the guidance of the magistrates. Now, this might be reckoned only a foolish and presumptuous intermeddling on the part of the committee; but it was followed by something of a different nature, as this circular would show. That it was legal for a person to prepare a bill of indictment, or for two or more persons to prepare such a bill, he was not one to deny; but, whether, though it might in itself be legal, if temperately and discreetly done, it might not deserve another character, if done, and systematically done, by a large body with formidable funds to back them—that might form another consideration. Many societies there might be, instituted for different purposes, and incidental to which might be a prosecution. Nobody would quarrel with them for that; but when the House saw an association which was founded for the purposes of prosecutions, which attempted to supersede the powers of the attorney-general, its legality became more questionable. Even with this he would not quarrel; but the object

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which they had in this circular ventured to avow was not to be so passed over. [Mr. Brougham then read from a paper]—"Sir; In pursuance of the 4th resolution of the address"—but the House ought to know that this was signed by a Mr. J. B. Sharp, who styled himself "Honorary Assistant Secretary:" was dated No. 6, Bridge-street, Blackfriars, and addressed to the magistrates of England! "I am directed"—by whom? "by the committee"—so that the magistrate was bound to know who and what this committee was:" I am directed by the committee to transmit you a copy of"—so and so; the address, in short, of this society. "In pursuance of the 4th resolution of the address, the committee have found it necessary to institute several prosecutions against persons engaged in the sale of libellous and seditious works; some of which prosecutions have been abandoned upon the parties expressing their contrition." In God's name to whom? To Mr. J. B. Sharp and this committee, forsooth! And upon that being done, these gentlemen, it seemed, were graciously pleased to enter a noli prosequi. But this was not all. The association was not satisfied with convictions, with the surrender upon oath of the dangerous stocks of these venders of seditious publications, and with these expressions of contrition to Mr. J. B. Sharp; but the parties were required to enter into an engagement never again to drive the same trade! Now, here he must protest against a society of this sort attempting to erect a jurisdiction of its own as it were, to indict sundry persons whom it might choose to proceed against; and then threatening the party with all those further measures which could be resorted to by an association backed by ample funds, and supported by all those powerful names which it put forth. The person proceeded against was menaced with ruin if he held out; for defence would amount to ruin with such an association; and the party could have nothing else to look to, unless he came forward and expressed contrition to Mr. J. B. Sharp, at No. 6, Bridge-street, Blackfriars; and unless, too, he gave up his whole stock of libellous and seditious publications; and even this would not avail him, without taking an oath to do so no more. And now he should like to be informed, if there were present any member of this constitutional association, upon what authority that oath was required.
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He desired to know upon what authority it was allowed, under such a government as this, where there were two such law officers as the attorney and solicitor-general, hitherto not slow to detect, nor remiss to proceed against such offences; where there was a secretary of state not tardy to expound the law, and not backward in issuing his circulars addressed likewise to the magistrates of this kingdom—he wished to know by whose authority it was that this self-constituted association came forward with a circular to the magistrates avowing that their proceedings had gone on in a regular course, from association to subscription, from subscription to promulgation, from promulgation to the instituting of indictments against a particular set of individuals. That no one might be in doubt upon the law, the committee informed the public, that they had "served" a copy of the inclosed exposition of the law of libel, upon every shopkeeper and other person who may so behave." "Many dealers," it was observed, "have thereupon relinquished the further sale or publication of these works and caricatures. In no case has the prosecution been commenced till a few days after the service of this notice, with a view to allow them the opportunity of relinquishing the sale of their stock. Under these circumstances should a conviction of the party be obtained, the delivery of this notice will be pleaded in aggravation, upon the offender's being brought up for judgment." So that juries and judges were to be called upon to consider as the last of all imaginable aggravations, that parties shall have been served with notices of such a committee as this, and had neglected to comply with them! They were to be found to have acted in contempt of Mr. J. B. Sharp, and the committee. The notice of these illustrious personages—these honorary secretaries—these limbs of the law, had been neglected, and parties were therefore to be prosecuted.—This might sound absurd enough in that House, or in a court of law; but out of doors it would have this effect:—men might thus be proceeded against for what the wisdom of this society had assumed to be scandalous and seditious libels, and yet be all the while perfectly innocent; because the society might possibly mistake the law upon the subject. It might turn out upon legal examination, that the poor tradesman, of whom they had previously bought the book or picture, had

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been much more innocently employed than the society itself. But to show how likely the unfortunate parties were to obtain a fair trial, he would read another passage of this production:—" Prosecutions are now going on against a notorious vender of seditious publications." This was not throwing the slightest imputation to be sure upon the individual hereafter to be tried: it was in no degree giving a colour to the question; it was a proof of their anxiety that he should be fairly and dispassionately tried! He thought he had now done quite enough in mentioning this matter once more to stop the course of this association. Not the least evil of of that association was, the circumstance of its numbering among its members about 40 peers of the realm, who were thus lending their names to a set of men capable of using them for these purposes: for he was far from supposing that those noble individuals, in so doing, were aware of the consequences of such a permission; which was, that in the end they were to be the judges in the last resort of those who were to be prosecuted by such attorneys as these men were. Let the House well consider what must be another equally inevitable result of these prosecutions. An association such as this was, poisoned justice in its very source. It called up all the angry passions and the interested feelings of individuals in that class of society from which jurymen were to be taken. What chance of a fair trial would a poor man have, before a jury taken out of the neighbourhood of some great man, a member of this association? He was not stating this case upon mere speculative grounds. A gentleman of great respectability, fortune, and consideration, upon seeing the name of a noble lord in the list of these associations had made a remark to the same effect. That gentleman's first observation upon reading it, was, "While that nobleman's name stands upon this list, none of his numerous tenants will be fit for jurors at any such trials." He felt no hesitation in saying wherein lay the remedy for this evil. The attorney-general had the power of suppressing the proceedings of this society by entering a nolle prosequi upon all their indictments. Let it not be said that that law-officer should rather stop till some case of gross abuse, might call for his intervention—an evil of such a description demanded a prompt and decided remedy. He had to apolo-
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gize for again calling the attention of the House to one of the greatest abuses which had grown up for many years; and which, if not put down by order of that House, or by the law-officers of the Crown, might lead to much more serious perversions of the law, than any other practices which had for a long time threatened it.
Mr. Scarlettbegged leave to say a few words with respect to the illegality of this association. The motives of the gentlemen were probably such that no one would wish to treat them harshly; but their proceedings were contrary to the law of the land. In individual cases, the party aggrieved was allowed to be the prosecutor by the law of England, but where the public was the party, the prosecutor was the government itself, and the attorney-general was the recognised agent of that government. The effect of this society's labours was, in fact, to libel the attorney-general. They implied that that officer had not been sufficiently vigilant, and that the society therefore undertook to remedy his defect of duty. Now, what would be said of a private gentleman, who should go about the country, indicting offences, committed, not against his interests, but against the interests of the public? What an extraordinary thing this would be—a sort of perambulating attorney-general. This association undertook prosecutions, however, on a similar scale. Where the attorney-general was concerned, the proceeding was regular: where the party aggrieved prosecuted the defendant knew his prosecutor. On the contrary, in the cases in which the Constitutional Association interfered, the prosecutors were unknown; no names were avowed, and some of them might be upon that very special jury which would have to try the offence charged against the defendant. There was no person who had considered the question in a legal or constitutional point of view, who could not concur in condemning such an association.
Mr. Warreexpressed his suprise, that this Association having been pronounced illegal by what he considered the highest law authority in that House, no member of his majesty's government had offered a word of explanation on the subject.
The Marquis of Londonderryquestioned the propriety of any discussion as to what the attorney-general ought or ought not to do, in the absence of that learned gentleman. Without entering into the legality or constitutionality of the

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Association, he could not but express his regret, that if it was of such a character as had been described, the mischief of the principle did not flash upon their minds before, when missionaries were sent down to prosecute men, not for libel, but to death; and great names appeared to the subscriptions, which were as likely to warp the minds of the jury as in the present instance.—But it really seemed as if all the sensibility of those who were so shocked at the formation of this society, was reserved for the sole crime of libel; and as if the very name of Constitutional Association called forth all their powers of reprobation.
Sir J. Sebrightconcurred in the opinions which had been given respecting the Association, which has taken upon itself the task of teaching magistrates their duty. He, for one, would dispense with the instruction of a body, which he considered illegal and unconstitutional.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that the insinuation of the noble marquis was unfounded in fact, for he had distinctly stated that an association of two or more persons to indict or prosecute might be legal where there was a lack of diligence in the proper quarter: but what he objected to was the system of prosecution going on day after day, until the liberty of the press was reduced to a mere shadow. Such prosecutions, and the associations for carrying them on, were different from those for prosecuting felons; for in the former case party feelings would be created; but who could suppose that a party would be made in the prosecution of felons?
The Marquis of Londonderryobserved that there was an association for the suppression of vice, the object of which was to prosecute all offences against decency and morality, and he had not heard any objection to it; nor did he conceive why an objection should be urged against this association, because it had for its object the prosecution and suppression of disloyalty and sedition.
Mr. Scarlettconsidered that there was no analogy whatever between the cases. He thought the self-called Constitutional Association a gross and severe attack on his majesty's government.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, he could not avoid expressing his surprise that the Constitutional Association should have been called illegal. He would take it upon himself to say that in that society there was nothing illegal, or at all contrary
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to the spirit of the constitution. If this were contrary to law, he should be glad to know who were the judges of the law—whether that House or the ordinary judges of the land. Now he would say, that when the question of the legality of the Association had recently come before the judges of the land, he had not heard from the court any insinuation that the society was illegal. Could the House think that if this society had been contrary to law the judges of the land would not have objected to it? Was the House to believe that the association of persons for the prosecution of offences against the law was in itself a violation of that law? He maintained that such an association was not illegal; of the policy of it he was not giving any opinion, but he challenged his learned friends to say that it was illegal to prosecute persons guilty of the crime of libel. It had been said that the attorney-general might if he pleased enter a nolle prosequi to the indictments of the society. He did not profess to be in the secrets of the society; but he had been informed by a learned friend who sat near him, in the court the other day, that there were two cases of the most atrocious libel against the sovereign; and he would ask whether those were cases in which a nolle prosequi ought to have been entered by the attorney-general? Cries of" Hear!" from the Opposition benches. He very well understood the meaning of those cheers; but he would ask whether the attorney-general was to make it is business to go into every print and pamphlet shop in the metropolis, in order to hunt out for libellous caricatures and publications. If the society discovered such, and selected them for prosecution, it was by no means any imputation upon the vigilance of his learned friend. He felt satisfied that his learned friend could use his discretion in cases of ex-officio informations; but it was hardly necessary for him to observe that there were cases where it would not be proper to prosecute.
Lord Miltonsaid, that no judge or court could, or ought to give any opinion as to the legality or illegality of a prosecution on which they might be called to determine. With the association in question they had nothing to do. They had only to decide upon the point of law, without at all considering who were the prosecutors.
Mr. Wynnsaid, he objected to any public prosecutions by irresponsible persons,

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in cases of libel. He was not surprised that many individuals supported such an association, considering that so many libels were circulated through the country. The feeling, he did not doubt, was a good one, though he considered its application as unsafe and dangerous. The solicitor-general had asked, whether the attorney-general was bound to hunt after libellous caricatures and publications, he did not say he was; but he thought that the secretary of state ought not to be ignorant of their existence, but should point them out fop prosecution. To leave such matters to irresponsible bodies was, he thought, pregnant with danger. The establishment of Orange lodges had originated in a good feeling, but the House had seen how dangerous such associations had since proved to be.
The committee of supply was deferred, and the House adjourned.