Commons Sitting of 30 April 1821

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The order of the

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day was read for going into a committee of supply to consider further of the army estimates. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."
Mr. Creeveysaid, he wished to address a few words to the House before it went into a committee. They had been now sitting six weeks upon the army estimates, without a single reduction in any one item proposed having been agreed to; still, however, a sensation had been felt elsewhere, as he understood, that circulars had been addressed to the inferior clerks in the public offices to intimate a probable reduction of their salaries. Now, he was anxious, that, when the gentlemen opposite began to reform the public offices, they should begin at the right end. The lower clerks were the most useful class of persons in the public departments, and yet their salaries were to be curtailed, while the salaries of those at the head of the offices were not to be touched. He wished the House to pledge itself on this subject, not, indeed, to any specific reduction, but according to the terms of a resolution which he held in his hand, and which referred to several great officers in the civil department of the army, who were already provided for by the votes on the estimates; and he would only ask the House to come to the resolution of taking into its serious consideration the expediency of reducing the great salaries which they at present enjoyed, when the report of the committee of supply should be brought up. The officers to whom he referred were eleven, and they received collectively the enormous sum of 16,000 l. per annum. He then moved, as an amendment, "That it appears to this House, from the army estimates of the present year, that the following provisions are made for the annexed offices in the civil departments of the army, viz. in the office of paymaster, 1,500 l. per ann. to an accountant, 1,200 l. to a cashier, and 1,000 l. to a ledger keeper; in the war-office, 2,500 l. per ann. to the deputy secretary at war, 1,400 l. to a first clerk, 1,200 l. to a principal clerk, 1,000 l. to a senior clerk, and 1,000 l. to a superintendent of current accounts; and in the office of comptroller of accounts, 2,000 l. to the first comptroller, and 1,500 l. each to two other comptrollers; and that such salaries have been all voted in the committee of supply; that this House nevertheless is impressed with the deepest conviction, that, in the
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present period of peace and general distress, the nation neither ought, nor is it able, to support its great and various establishments upon the same expensive scale as formerly; and that this House; will take into its most serious examination, the expediency of reducing the expense of the establishments hereinbefore mentioned when the resolutions respecting the same shall be reported from the committee of supply."
Lord Palmerstonsaid, be had never known a resolution so extraordinary in its nature, or so singular in its grounds. The hon. member had heard that some reductions were about to be made; and therefore he called upon the House to re-consider certain votes it had already come to. If the government had not come to any determination to reduce its expenses, then there might be, ground, for the amendment; but it was a, most singular reason for it that government had determined to see what reductions might be made in particular departments. It was not less singular that the hon. member should call upon the House to pledge itself to the consideration of a report, which was not yet before them. The resolutions of the committee were not yet reported, and the House could not regularly know what they were; therefore, according to every parliamentary principle, the motion was inadmissible. In a few days, the items to which the amendment alluded must come before the House, and he conceived it would be, only stultifying itself, to declare now that it would consider what, in the course, of business, must come under its consideration in so short a time. The thing carried absurdity on the face of it, unless the House admitted that it was so sluggish, that unless it thus pledged itself be-forehand, it would not otherwise consider them.
Mr. Creeveysaid, his object was, not that the House should now go, into the consideration of those items, but that it should pledge itself to consider them when the report of the committee should be brought up. Such a resolution, he conceived, would not stultify the House, His object was, to direct the attention of parliament and the public to those large votes, and that our economy should not consist in the unnecessary dismissal of a, few of the lower clerks.
Sir C. Longsaid, he could not listen to the assertion that it was the intention

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of government to discharge some of the lower clerks, and not the higher, without saying that no such thing was contemplated by government. The only thing intended was a revision of the system in the different offices; and this the hon. member's fancy had construed into a dismissal of the lower clerks.
Mr. Bennetdefended the motion of his hon. friend, which, he maintained, was consistent with the practice of parliament. It was not at all uncommon that the House should pledge themselves to do something which they had not already done; and that they had not seriously considered any of those estimates with a view to economy was, he thought, clear. His majesty's government had yet done nothing in that respect; and so obedient was a majority of that House to the wishes of the ministers, that, if on a sum of 5,000 l. 14 s. 6½d. a reduction of the odd 6½d was proposed, and resisted by the noble lord, he believed in his conscience the House would refuse the reduction. The House had been long enough dragged through the dirt, and ought to endeavour to get upon fairer ground, and to stand better in the eyes of the country. He was confident that the House would never again see such an estimate as that which the noble lord, in the seventh year of peace, had presented. He contended, that his hon. friend was perfectly right in making the motion. It would show the necessity of parliamentary reform, and that the House was at present so constituted, that if government were economical, it would be economical also; but that if government were extravagant, it would likewise be extravagant. He wished such a motion to be made every day in the week, that the people might see what the House was, and how regardless it was of its duty in the expenditure of the public revenue.
Mr. Humesaid, that the resolution proposed no specific reduction, and therefore did not bind the House to any thing farther than that they would seriously consider the items whenever they came before them. He had not heard of the resolution until it was proposed. If he had been consulted upon it, he would have advised his hon. friend to defer it until the bringing up the report; but as it was now before the House, he would vote for it.
The Marquis of Londonderryfelt it unnecessary to press on the House the
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impropriety of the motion, after what had fallen from the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, who had pushed his reproach of the hon. mover to a degree of harshness disproportionate to the offence which the want of confidence that certainly had been exhibited towards him was calculated to excite. The hon. gentleman had distinctly allowed that the motion was unnecessary at the present moment. Now really, if the House were to be called upon to act on the principle of affirming every unnecessary proposition that was made to it, and from the establishment of which not the slightest public advantage could be derived, merely lest the country should be misled, it would, in his opinion, involve itself in great disgrace. But the hon. member for Aberdeen had relieved him from all difficulty in pressing this point, and he would therefore content himself with saying, that, for the reason which that hon. member had stated, he should certainly vote against the motion.
Mr. Hutchinsonmaintained the expediency of agreeing to the motion, in order that the House might show its disposition to attend to the distresses of the people, by pledging itself, at the first convenient opportunity, to take into consideration the salaries specified, in order to determine whether they might not be advantageously reduced. If such motions as these were rejected, he was persuaded that things could not go on as they were; for the distressed people, finding that all their petitions for relief were fruitless, would naturally withdraw their confidence from those by whom their complaints were disregarded.
The question being put, the House divided: For the original motion, 55; For the Amendment, 22: Majority, 33.

List of the Minority.

Bernal, R.

Monck, J. B.

Brougham, H.

O'Callaghan, col.

Cavendish, hon. H. F. C.

Powlett, hon. W.J. F.

Robarts, A. W.

Coffin, sir I.

Robarts, G. J.

Davies, col.

Russell, lord J.

Denman, T.

Scarlett, Jas.

Fergusson, sir R.

Taylor, A. M.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Wilson, sir R,

Hume, J.

Wood, M.

Hutchinson, hon. C.H.

TELLERS.

Martin, Jas.

Bennet, hon. G. H.

Milbank, Mark

Creevey, Thos.

The House having resolved itself into the committee, lord Palmerston moved, "That 16,915 l. 8s. 4d. be granted for

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defraying the charge of the Military College for the year 1821."
Mr. Humesaid, he had great objection to this item. He would admit, that the expense of the establishment had been considerably reduced since 1816. It was then 33,000 l. for seniors and juniors, and it had since then gradually diminished until it had been brought to its present amount. He did not mean to object to the proper education of officers for the army; but he objected to the country being called upon to pay for the education of young men who were not for the service. The expense to the public for the junior department of the military college at Sandhurst, in the five years from 1816 to 1820 inclusive, amounted to 115,280 l., during which period the number of cadets annually at the college was from 412, in 1816, to 290 in 1820, of which number one-fourth, or 441, ought to have completed their course of four years education, and to have joined the army; whereas, in these five years only 160 cadets obtained commissions, viz. 46 by purchase, and 114 without purchase; and that the expense to the public for the education of those 160 has consequently been at the rate of 720 l. 10 s. for each cadet before he joined the army. The amount of pensions for life, now payable for services to the college, was 1,123 l. per annum, which, at 12 years purchase, would amount to an expense of 21,876 l. to the public. This, considering the comparatively small number that got into the army, was an expense which the country ought not to be called upon to pay. The Finance Report of 1817 stated, that by providing for the number of young men, 320, on the establishment, others were necessarily excluded from appointments in the army; and if this number could not be provided for, nothing could be more cruel than to educate them in the military college. The sooner, therefore, this institution was done away with, the better. However, as he was unwilling to propose the entire reduction of it, if it could be rendered useful, he would only move for such a reduction of the expenses as might, without inconvenience, be made. What use was there for a military staff, which cost the public 6,457 l. for the education of 290 young men? Why should there be a governor at 1,500 l. a year, and a lieutenant-governor at 1,095 l.? Why a pay-master, a librarian, a surgeon, and an assistant surgeon?
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If one assistant surgeon was sufficient for half a regiment, why should 290 boys require a surgeon and an assistant surgeon? There were 4 professors of French fortication, 6 professors of Drawing, and 4 professors of French. The governor had his clerk; the lieutenant-governor his clerk. There never had existed an establishment altogether so preposterous. There were 24 men servants. The object was, to train the young men to be soldiers. Why, then, should such absurd attendance be required for them? He should therefore propose to reduce the sum moved for by 7,244 l. The remaining sum would be quite sufficient for all the rational purposes of the establishment. He would, move as an amendment, that 9,771 l. be voted.
Lord Palmerstonwas glad that the hon. gentleman had saved him the trouble of proving the expediency of properly educating officers for the army. With respect to the want of commissions to the number educated in the military college, he had to state that there were only fourteen cadets who had passed examination and had not received commissions. When it was considered that examinations were annual, and that this was the whole produce now unprovided for, it could not be said that the number was too great. If all were appointed to commissions who had passed examination, before the next examination took place, it was as much as could be expected. The House might feel satisfaction in learning that the number educated in this college since its institution was 2,528. Of these 1,867 had joined the service; and 248 remained at the college. Of the remaining 415, some had died, some had been unqualified, and some had preferred other professions. The expenses altogether differed very little from the ordnance and naval establishments of the same kind. The governor and lieutenant-governor were both resident, and conscientiouly attentive to their duties. He was surprised that the hon. gentleman who was so active in his inquiries, and who had sent to survey the Lord Howe, lying God knew where, had not applied his investigating faculties to the duties and salaries of the governor and lieutenant-governor of the military college, but should have come to the House and professed his total ignorance on the subject. When the number and nature of the persons educated were considered, it would be admitted, that not

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only skill and ability, but personal authority and weight were necessary to preserve discipline. The persons educated were not boys who readily acquiesced in any restraints imposed; nor were they full-grown men who understood the necessity of personal restraint. The librarian was also chaplain; and besides the library, he had the charge of very valuable military plans. The paymaster examined all tradesmen's bills, which required more attention than the accounts of a regiment. As to the surgeon and assistant-surgeon, the House would not enter into inquiries respecting the degrees of health of boys at school and soldiers in a regiment. There was nothing more essential to the health of the establishment, than the attention of servants; and therefore the reduction of their number would be injurious. Each individual at the establishment cost the public but 58 l. annually. Among them were many who were gratuitously educated, their fathers having fallen in the field of battle. Every year since the peace the number of those was necessarily diminished, and thus the average expense was every year becoming less.
Colonel Davies,who had himself been educated at the college, expressed his persuasion, that while the senior department was eminently serviceable to the country, the junior was wholly useless; yet the reductions which had taken place had been most injudiciously in that department principally from which alone public benefit was derived. Of the professors of fortification and drawing, three were Frenchmen, one of whom had been a lieutenant in the navy. Now, he was at a loss to conceive what this person could know of fortification. It was urged, that this establishment had furnished many officers to the army; but it should be recollected, that within the last five years no more than 52 officers had been taken into actual service from half-pay. This, therefore, was a gross injustice to the whole of the half-pay list.
Sir Lowry Coleobserved, that every gentleman who knew the governor of the Military College must acknowledge the great services which he had rendered to the country. Sir G. Murray had devoted his mind to that department, and had introduced great and effective improvements into it.
Colonel Daviesadmitted the merits of the gallant officer alluded to. His objection was not to the individual, but to the
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office. He felt convinced, that either the governor or lieutenant-governor ought to be reduced.
Sir L. Colesaid, that it was not the duty of the governor, nor would it become his station, to enter into all the minute details of the establishment. It would not become him, for instance, to inquire, on every occasion, whether one boy was to be put into the black hole, or whether another boy should receive punishment of a different nature.
Mr. Humesaid, that one would suppose, from the gallant general's observation, that the governor was above his work. If the lieutenant-governor attended to commitments to the black hole, what were the captains, and the 10 or 12 Serjeants to attend to? This was indeed drawing a cork with a ten-horse power. Either the boys at Sandhurst were the worst in the world, or their managers were the worst. The reduction he had proposed was extremely moderate, under all the circumstances, and it was the duty of the House to insist that it should be made,
Lord John Russellsaid, that he, for one, did not think it right, in a free country like this, to have young men educated from their earliest youth with a view solely to the army. He entertained an old prejudice against accustoming boys to see nothing around them but military uniforms and military discipline. He did not think it proper that they should be totally separated from the affairs of civil life. However necessary such an establishment might have been during war, he thought it might be reduced in a time of peace. But even if such an establishment were necessary, still there was no occasion for sending boys to it at an earlier period than that at which persons studied for the bar or the church, which was never before 15 years of age. He also objected to the employment of four French professors, as he could not see any connection between a knowledge of the French language and the duties of a British officer.
Lord Palmerstoncould not join in opinion with the noble lord, that officers should be brought up in a happy constitutional ignorance of their profession, and of the language of those countries in which they might be appointed to serve. Such was the case with the officers of the British army at one time, and the consequence was, that foreign officers were hired to do that duty, without a knowledge of which the courage of the British

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soldier would be of no avail. He did not think the comparison made by the noble lord between young men brought up for the learned professions and for the army just, because in the latter profession young men must enter into it at about eighteen, and consequently must begin at an earlier age to learn their profession than those who did not enter on the duties of their profession until the age of manhood.
Mr. Bennetwas of opinion, that if the college had been productive of good in disseminating knowledge among our officers, it had also produced much evil in inculcating notions inconsistent with the principles of a free constitution. It was said, that our officers were ignorant before the establishment of this college. This he would deny. He had himself, twenty years ago, known many officers, as well educated, and as well informed, as any gentleman now in the army. It would be better to allow parents to qualify their children for the army, by providing the necessary instruction. If government once established the rule, that none but the educated officer should receive a commission, those who applied would take care to possess themselves of the necessary knowledge.
Colonel Wooddefended the system pursued in the Military College, as highly beneficial to the country, particularly the first class, which was exclusively for the education of the orphans of officers who bad died in the defence of their country. He read a letter from general Wolfe to a friend, in which he recommends that all young officers should possess a knowledge of the Latin and French languages and also some knowledge of the mathematics. The letter went on to say, that all young officers should make themselves masters of these qualifications, in order that they might be enabled to discharge the important trust reposed in them, and without which we must sink under the indefatigable exertions of our restless neighbours.
Captain O'Gradyobserved, that he had the concurrence of every cavalry officer in stating, that the Riding-house at Pim-Jico was totally useless, and ought to be suppressed. He trusted that that department would be again brought under the attention of the House.
Mr. Humemaintained, that the object of this institution was not attended to. The interests of the children of officers were not benefited by it, but only those
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of persons who, though not at all connects ed with the army, had influence else-where to get themselves promoted.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, as a proof that influence was not the only means of obtaining commissions at the Military College, that he was present at a recent examination, at which a young man was presented with a commission in an old regiment, as a reward for the excellent manner in which he stood the examination. Formerly, officers sought instruction abroad, merely because in this country military education was neglected. He had no hesitation in saying, that the system of instruction now pursued at Sandhurst was superior to the system pursued at the colleges abroad.
Mr. Brightsaid, that he looked with great jealousy at the establishment in question! He was convinced that a better system of education might be promoted at much less expense, and should feel it his duty to vote for a reduction of the proposed grant.
Mr. J. H. Smythwas of opinion that the Military College was not of sufficient advantage to the community to be maintained in its present state, during the existence of so much distress in the country.
Mr. W. Williamscomplained of the system of military education. If the children of deceased officers were to be educated, why not give them a civil education? He not only complained of the establishment itself, but of the wasteful expenditure attending it. For 290 children, there were no fewer than 104* masters and servants.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, that in the present state of the country, he could not support the grant, the more particularly as he apprehended that there was a perversion of the original design of the establishment.
The Committee divided: For the Grant, 32: For the Amendment, 23: Majority, 9.

List of the Minority.

Beaumont, T. W.

Gipps, Geo.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Hamilton, lord A.

Bernal, R.

Harbord, hon. E.

Birch, J.

Hume, J.

Bright, H.

Latouch, R.

Crompton, Saml.

Monck, J. B.

Denman, Thos.

Philips, G.

Evans, Wm.

Rice, G. R.

Forbes, C.

Russell, lord J.

Grattan, Jas.

Smythe, J. H.

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Williams, W.

TELLER.

Wilson, Thos.

Davies, col.

Wood, M.

On the Resolution, "That 28,201 l. 2s. 3d. be granted for defraying the charge of Garrisons at home and abroad,"
Mr. Humeasked, if government intended to keep up the charges for garrisons, which were merely sinecures? Would they not reduce the appointments of governors in places where there were no garrisons to govern? Included in the present vote were several places of that description. He would particularly instance the governorship of Gibraltar, for which lord Chatham had 2,800 l. a-year on the establishment, and 691 l. upon the home account. This was a perfectly sinecure office, and ought not to be continued.
The Marquis of Londonderryhad no hesitation in replying, that it was not the intention of government to recommend a reduction in the garrisons alluded to. They considered them as a perfectly suitable mode of rewarding the services of distinguished military officers. When he looked at the amount of these garrisons, he by no means thought it an exorbitant scale to exist for the purpose he had mentioned. The hon. gentleman had made a particular application of his general doctrine, which was not very candid towards the person bearing the illustrious name which the earl of Chatham did. That distinguished officer never contemplated his appointment as a sinecure, but, on the contrary, intended to make it one of effective service. The reason why he had not gone out to Gibraltar earlier, was on account of the death of lady Chatham; but he was at this moment about to set out to take the actual command of the garrison. As the noblelord's departure had been announced in the newspapers, he was astonished that the hon. member, with his usual general knowledge, should seem to be ignorant of it. With respect to the emolument of the office, the earl of Chatham had 4,400 l. a-year, while his predecessor, the late duke of Kent, had 6,500 l. a-year.
Mr. Humesaid, that the services of the late duke of Kent would, at least, bear comparison with those of lord Chatham: every one knew the services of his lordship, and he believed every one was convinced that those services were fully requited wherever they were performed— whether at Walchcren, or at any other
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place. The duke of Kent had obtained the appointment from the king, as a reward for his nine or ten years' foreign service with his regiment, and the duke did not receive two-thirds of the allowance which his predecessors had enjoyed. His royal highness had, for the purpose of preventing the disgraceful breaches of military discipline, before his time so prevalent in the garrison, put down the system of the wine-houses, which was a source of emolument to the governor, and the advantage of the alteration was so apparent, that government promised to make up to the duke of Kent the loss he had thereby incurred—a promise which they never afterwards redeemed.
Colonel Daviessaid, he was ready to pay a tribute to the name of Chatham; but it should be recollected, that as the son of the illustrious statesman who first obtained the name, the noble earl enjoyed a pension of 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. a-year, independent of this reward for his personal services. With respect to his going to Gibraltar, or staying away, the case was the same, the main objection being that the office was a complete sinecure.
Mr. Humerepeated his deep regret, that in times like the present, no expectation was held out to the country that the 28,000 l. for sinecure garrisons would be reduced. He would ask, was the Tower establishment to be still kept as a reward for military services? Was the garrison expenditure of Berwick to be maintained, when the place had been dismantled of all its guns? By way of amendment he should move a reduction from Berwick of 944 l. and from Gibraltar of 1,500 l.; that was, that 2,444 l. be subtracted from the proposed grant.
Lord A. Hamiltonasked, whether the ministers would say that the office of governor of Gibraltar ought to continue in perpetuity; if this was their intention, they should avow it. If not, never was there a more improper appointment than that of lord Chatham. It had been the uniform defence of sinecures, that they were bestowed as a reward for great public services: but the assertion was falsified by universal experience.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, it was a mistake to suppose that the whole of the offices in question were sinecures. The governors were almost the only officers that could be regarded as holding sinecures; which situations were more congenial to the

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feelings of old soldiers than pensions would be.
Mr. Bennetasked for what conceivable reason, the establishments of garrisons were kept up at Inverness, Hull, and Stirling? Notwithstanding the splendid names which the noble lord had put at the head of his list, he had no doubt if all the names were given, that there would he found among them some excellent electioneerers.
Lord J. Russellwished to know if it was the intention of ministers that lord Chatham should permanently reside at Gibraltar as governor, and if so, whether it was their intention to abolish the situation of lieutenant-governor.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas not prepared to give the noble lord the information he wished to obtain. He could only state, that when the appointment of lord Chatham was made out, it was distinctly understood that the noble earl would proceed to Gibraltar to perform the duties of the situation.
Mr. Philipscontended, that as the duke of Kent had been absent from Gibraltar so many years, and as lord Chatham had hitherto been absent since his appointment, it must be essentially a sinecure. It seemed to him that lord Chatham's going out was planned to take from the office the character which it had hitherto borne; but still he could not but regard it as a sinecure; and the course now taken, struck him as being merely an expedient resorted to by ministers in consequence of their determination not to give up their patronage.
Lord Palmerstondenied that the situation of governor of Gibraltar was a sinecure. An hon. member had declared, that situations of this description were granted to individuals in order to serve electioneering purposes. He had, however, given a very awkward exemplification, when he alluded to the governorship of Stirling. That post was held by lord Hutchinson, who would scarcely exert his influence for electioneering purposes, at least in favour of ministers.
The committee divided: For the Resolution, 87. Against it, 27.
On the resolution, "That 115,256 l. 17 s. 6d. be granted for defraying the charge of Full Pay for Retired and Unattached officers,"
Mr. Humecalled attention to the manner in which this charge had been swollen out by the late temporary embodying of
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veteran battalions. It was a rule, that officers of veteran battalions, when, disembodied, should receive full pay for life and the rule had justice as well as liberality in it, when persons, who from length of service had peculiar claims upon the public, were placed in those regiments. About a year and a half ago ministers thought fit to raise new battalions of these corps which had been since disbanded. They had to officer these battalions, taken officers some from full and some from half-pay, and given them a claim to retire for life on full pay. The increase of expense thus entailed upon the public was 13,870 l.; of the officers, 68 were taken from full and 179 from half-pay, and they seemed to have been selected on any other principle than length of service. There were a great many of these officers who had served six, four, and two and a half years,—indeed, all periods except long ones. As ministers had taken this step without the sanction of parliament, he should move to reduce the vote by 13,870 l.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, the officers who were placed on veteran battalions, had indeed the privilege of full-pay when disembodied, but they forfeited all chance of promotion, and, even after they retired, were liable to be called on again. Officers who had so retired, were called on to serve in the new battalions alluded to; but they had been found too much worn out and broken in constitution to perform any military service. The commander-in-chief had selected, not according to length of service, which was an improper criterion, but those who, from severity of service or incapacity, were disabled for more active duty. Some of them, though they had held commissions for a short time, had served long as non-commissioned officers.
Mr. Humesaid, that the description which the noble lord had given of the persons selected did not generally apply But as a pledge appeared to have been given them, though most improperly, he should not press his amendment to a division.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 121,265 l. be granted for the charge of half-pay, and reduced allowances to the officers of disbanded foreign corps, of pensions to wounded foreign officers, and of the allowances to the widows and children of deceased foreign officers,"
Mr. Humesaid, if the smallest wish for

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economy existed in the House, gentlemen would oppose this resolution. When he stated, that by the existing system foreign officers were placed in a better situation than English officers on half-pay, he was sure the House would see the necessity of altering the system. From 1816 to the present period, estimates of the sum necessary to defray the half-pay and reduced allowances of foreign corps were laid before the House, but it was never mentioned that 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. was annually received by an individual for paying those reduced allowances, &c. To show that the British half-pay officer was in a worse situation than the foreign officer on half-pay, he would suppose that he was a German officer, residing at Frankfort. Suppose an English officer to be also residing there, and that both the parties wished to draw for 200 l. half-pay; in such an event, he, as the German officer, could get his bill cashed at once, and receive his 200 l. nett; but the British officer could not procure the money without agency. The English officer paid 2d. in the pound for procuring his money, while 3½ per cent was paid to an individual for answering the drafts of those foreign officers. In 1816 it cost the public 2,449 l.; in 1817, 4,452 l.; in 1818, 4,415 l.; in 1819, 2,344 l.; in 1820, 3,100 l., which he contended was taken out of the pockets of the public to give to an individual for doing a duty which ought to be performed by two of the clerks in the Pay-office. It was certainly enough to place foreign officers on the same footing as British officers. He conceived, therefore, that these foreign officers ought either to receive their pay in this country, or defray the expense of agency; and would move a reduction of this proposed grant to the amount of 3,050 l.
Lord Palmerstonobserved, that the agent alluded to had not been appointed by him. The only concern, indeed, which he had had with that officer was, to reduce the percentage allowed him from 3½ to 2½. As to the comparison between the half-pay of native and foreign officers, the former could, if in this country, receive their half-pay personally without any deduction for agency; and the agency objected to was merely meant to put those foreign officers upon the same footing.
Colonel Daviesobserved, that several foreign officers receiving the half-pay of England were serving in the army of other
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nations. He asked, whether the duke de Guiche, who was now holding a commission of high rank in the French army, was not still receiving half-pay from this country, as a captain in the 10th dragoons?
Lord Palmerstonreplied, that the gallant duke had never received any half-pay from this country since he entered into the army of his legitimate sovereign, and that his name was inserted in the half-pay list merely as a record of his services to this country.
Mr. Bennetfelt it his duty to offer a tribute of respect to the character of the duke de Guiche, and concluded with moving, as an amendment to the motion of Mr. Hume, that the proposed grant be reduced 2,000 l.
The Committee divided on Mr. Bennet's Amendment; Ayes 35. Noes, 89. The original resolution was then agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Birch, Josh.

Monck J. B.

Belgrave, visc.

Milbank, Mark

Beaumont, T. W.

O'Callaghan, col.

Bright, H.

Phillips, G.

Bernal, R.

Powlett, hn. W. J. F.

Crompton, S.

Russell, lord J.

Davies, col.

Rice, G. R.

Denman, Thos.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Evans, W. M.

Wharton, J.

Forbes, C.

Wyvill, M.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Wood, M.

Harbord, hon. E.

Wilson, Thos.

Hamilton, lord A.

Wilson, sir R.

Latouche, R.

TELLER.

Lushington, S.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Maxwell, J.

On the resolution, "That 42,796 l. be granted for the charge of the in-pensioners of Chelsea-hospital,"
Colonel Daviessaid, that the eloquence of angels would be useless against the majority of that House: he would, however, do his duty. He thought the duty which was at present done by six medical attendants at this hospital, might be amply discharged by two. He also complained of the increased salaries paid to the officers of the medical establishment.
Sir C. Longsaid, that all the medical attendants were fully occupied. No one acquainted with the duty they had to perform could think they were overpaid.
Mr. Gordonsaid, he found a charge of 100 l. a year to a magistrate for attesting out-pensioners. The nature of this duty he could not understand.
Sir C. Longexplained, that tins magistrate took all the attestations necessary before the board.
Mr. Humethought it might hereafter be advantageous to consider whether Chelsea Hospital ought to be continued.
The Resolution was agreed to, after which, the chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.