Commons Sitting of 26 May 1820

SUNDAY NEWSPAPERS.
Mr. Courtenaypresented a petition, signed by certain dealers and venders of newspapers. The petitioners complained that in consequence of the great increase of the Sunday newspapers, and their being exposed for sale on that day, much injury had been
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done to the public morals, and the breach of the Sabbath was thereby occasioned to an alarming extent. The petitioners said, that many of them had made great sacrifices in their opposition to this practice, whilst others of them were not able, in consequence of their limited circumstances, to reject the business, which would only have the effect of throwing it into the hands of others who had not such scruples. They said that the increase of the Sunday newspapers, and the principles they contained, had a direct and alarming tendency to the destruction of public morals; that their having been sold and read on Sundays kept numbers of persons from attending divine service. The petitioners prayed that the House would adopt such measures as might suppress so great an evil. The hon. and learned gentleman, in presenting the petition, said, he ever felt that the true liberty of the press was most endangered by the abuse of it, and that maxim was illustrated in the conduct of some of those publications. He felt it to be his duty to present the petition, at the same time that he had declared to the petitioners that he could not promise to found any measure upon it. He therefore simply moved, that the petition do lie on the table.
Mr. Lambtonsaid, that he would not object to any set of men approaching that House in a constitutional way. At the same time he could not help expressing his extreme disgust at the hypocritical cant of the petitioners. That the circulation of Sunday newspapers was injurious to public morals, was a doctrine to which lie could not subscribe. He thought that wherever the press laboured to oppose the advances of slavery and corruption, the circulation of newspapers on any day was a moral as well as a constitutional act; but if those dealers and venders thought otherwise, if they felt those conscientious scruples, they might easily retire from a pursuit, which they considered immoral. He could not but condemn the language of the petition; he could not sit silent and hear so gross a charge brought against the Sunday newspapers. Where, he asked, was to be found an immoral of indecent, or seditious Sunday newspaper? He did not know of one. He thought, on the contrary, that the newspapers conveyed instruction, political as well as moral, to the people of England. He thought that the peti-

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tioners, instead of coming forward to attack the Sunday newspapers, would have done well to remain at home, and endeavour to amend their own lives. This would be more agreeable to the true principles of Christianity.
Ordered to lie on the table.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—ROB. C. BURTON, ESQ.
Mr. Wynn presented the following Report from the Committee of Privileges: 1. Resolved, That it appears to this committee, that the action of Christopher Bolton, Robert Gleadow, and Caius Thompson, against John Eyles, esq. warden of his majesty's prison of the Fleet, being founded upon the alleged escape of Robert Christie Burton, esq., from his custody as warden, which escape was no other than a discharge of the said Robert Christie Burton, under the order of this House, of the 28th day of January, 1819, the commencing and prosecuting of the said action is a high breach of the privilege of this House. 2. "That it appears to this committee, that Christopher Bolton, Robert Gleadow, Caius Thompson, Charles Frost, and Archibald Rosser, have been concerned in commencing and prosecuting the said action."—The first resolution being agreed to, it was ordered—on the motion of Mr. Wynn, "That Christopher Bolton, &c. do attend this House on the 5th of June."

BOSTON ELECTION.
The order of the day was read for resuming the adjourned debate on the Petition of W. Augustus Johnson, esq. On the question being put,
Sir R. Heronsaid, that the question before the House was one of the greatest importance, and one with which the House ought not to interfere upon grounds so slender as those advanced by the hon. gentleman who made the motion. The hon. gentleman principally relied on two grounds; first, the absence of Mr. Ellis; and, secondly, that the House could not anticipate a case which would come before a committee. If the last ground were tenable, the House had in fact no case before them at present. It was argued last night, and he believed it was the opinion of most members present, that if the qualification of the absent candidate were called for and not produced at the election, he could not be legally returned; but at the Boston election, the qualification of Mr. Ellis had been demanded, and the returning officer, after consulting with
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some persons, not lawyers, decided that it was not necessary for the friends of Mr. Ellis to produce a qualification. As the House had determined to reject the numerous petitions of the people of England for a more equal representation, it ought surely to vindicate, in the fullest extent, the right of the people to that representation which it had thought fit to give them. If the committee was postponed to the time proposed, in consequence of the absence of Mr. Ellis, the session of parliament might pass away. He did not rely on the declaration, that Mr. Ellis was on his passage from the Cape of Good Hope. If Old Sarum elected the dey of Algiers, would the House allow him to take his seat? Certainly not. The dey of Algiers was not more incapable of holding a seat in that House than Mr. Ellis. The hon. member read an extract from an act, which provided, that any person holding a new office under the Crown, or one created by the Crown after the 25th of October 1795, should be incapable of holding a seat in parliament. From the returns of the civil department of the Cape, it appeared that Mr. Ellis held the office of deputy colonial secretary, an office appointed by the Crown.
Mr. Wynnwas sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but he thought he was pursuing a very extraordinary course in calling upon the House to discuss the merits of the case in the present stage. That should be the business of a committee.
Sir R. Heronwas obliged to the hon. member for setting him right; but he conceived he was driven into the observations which he had made by the application of the hon. gentleman opposite. He thought it right to refer all to the committee. He was able to prove, by viva voce evidence, that Mr. Ellis acted officially at the Cape. He thought no case was made out sufficient to induce the House to interfere and take the question from the committee.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that many members did not know upon what grounds the hon. member moved.
Mr. Courtenaysaid, that this was a petion which had been fixed for consideration on the 6th of June, and that he, in consequence of the absence of Mr. Ellis, wished to have the time enlarged to the 18th of July.
Mr. Bernalsaid, that Mr. Ellis had no authorised agent in this country.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that his reason for offering a word on this occasion was, that

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the hon. member opposite had said that he had no doubt that Mr. Ellis was disqualified from holding his seat in parliament. About that he thought there could be no doubt, and the only point on which the question turned was, did he accept the office. His hon. friend (sir R. Heron) said he would adduce proof of that fact. Under such circumstances, was anything so monstrous as to say that the House must, because the electors of Boston had elected Mr. Ellis, presume that he ought to sit? Would any man in the House get up and say he thought Mr. Ellis eligible? Would the hon. gentleman say, he had any doubt on the subject, that Mr. Ellis had no idea when he went to the Cape that he would be elected for Boston? He would wish to know, whether any member would not be at liberty to move for a new writ for a member in the room of Mr. Ellis? If the House made use of the Grenville act, he hoped they would not use it for the purpose of mischief. The effect of the present motion would be, that Boston would be unrepresented for this year and probably for the next. No one doubted that the electors had a right to elect Mr. Ellis; but the hon. member who made the motion had declared that the impression on his mind was, that the office of Mr. Ellis was a disqualification, and the only question now was, did he accept it? He thought the present motion was not a fair way of dealing with parliament; he thought it competent for any member to move that a new writ be issued for Boston.
The Speakersaid, he thought the petition on the table must be disposed of before any member would be at liberty to move for a new writ. The next question was, how the petition could be withdrawn after recognizances had been entered into. By a clause in the 28th of Geo. 3rd, the House could not issue a writ unless the seat were vacated by death or some other cause, which must arise subsequently to the election; and by the 53rd of Geo. 3rd, it was lawful for the House to permit a petition to be withdrawn upon matter which might subsequently arise verified upon oath.
Mr. Bathurstbegged the House to consider that the object of the present motion was only to remove the consideration of the petition from the 6th of June to the 18th of July, a day on which another petition of a similar nature was to be taken into consideration; and it might happen, that the person complained of in that peti-
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tion would be proved in the committee to be as incapable of holding a seat as Mr. Ellis. An hon. member had said that it was late in the session, and the consequence would be, that it would go over for another year. In that respect the petition was not used differently from others of a similar description. The sum and substance of the observations were, that it could be proved that Mr. Ellis was incapable of accepting a seat; but such proof could not, he conceived, be now submitted to the House. The House had been informed by the' Chair, that they had not the power to reject the ordinary mode of proceeding adopted by parliament, and that proof could only be offered in the usual way adopted by the House.
Sir R. Heronsaid, he did not undertake to prove that Mr. Ellis was now in possession of the office, but that he did accept it.
Mr. Broughamsaid, the House ought to hear all before they made up their minds on the present case. He would suppose this motion was never made; and if he had the same impression on his mind as the hon. gentleman opposite, he should hesitate before he would make such a motion, as the hon. gentleman seemed to be certain that the utmost delay would only tend to show that Mr. Ellis was ineligible. For his part, he thought a greater difficulty existed in point of fact than in point of law. He thought the person who proposed this measure was not a friend to Mr. Ellis. If the committee were ballotted for, and in the act of sitting, he would defy the petitioner to make out his case; and why? His hon. friend said it was an office created since 1795; yes, but it must be proved that Mr. Ellis was in possession of it on the day upon which he was elected. If any member moved for a new writ for a person to serve in the room of Mr. Ellis, it might turn out that some other person was entitled to take the seat. It appeared to him that it should be proved that Mr. Ellis actually held the office on the day of his return for Boston. He thought that could not be ascertained, except by the appearance of Mr. Ellis, or by sending out to the Cape. He did not see the possibility of proving the contents of the petition. The gentleman alluded to had left the Cape a month previous to the election; and he therefore could not say that Mr. Ellis held the office at the time of his return for Boston. It might happen, if a new writ were issued, that

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Mr. Ellis would come in a day after and say, "I resigned a day or two previous to my return." What then would the House do in order to extricate itself from such a situation? The only way, in his opinion, by which the difficulty could be got rid of was, by a new act of parliament.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he apprehended that official intelligence from the Cape would be sufficient to warrant the committee in coining to a decision on the question, but at the present moment it was quite impossible to have any intelligence of that kind. Me did not think it possible to move for a new writ, now that the case was sub judice. The Grenville act deprived the House of that jurisdiction. From the words in the petition it appeared, that the petitioner did not only intend to contest the right of Mr. Ellis, but to urge his own; and if the House would now take the question into consideration, the parties would be deprived of that protection intended to be afforded by the Grenville act. On general grounds, he thought the House ought not to act hastily in depriving a man of what was of the highest respectability in the country—namely, a seat in the House of Commons. If the question were permitted to stand over until next session it would be a hard case; but in postponing it to the 18th of July, he did not think any great injury would be done.
Mr. Courtenayadmitted, that considering the office Mr. Ellis held as a notoriously new one, he was inclined to suppose him ineligible; but he had stated that there were many possible ways in which he might have become eligible.
The question "that the order for considering the petition of W. Augustus Johnson, on the 6th of June next, be discharged, and that the petition be taken into consideration on the 18th of July next," was then put and agreed to.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Lord Althorpproceeded to describe the principal provisions of the Insolvent Debtors' bill, the seond reading of which he was about to move. In consequence of what had passed with regard to this measure upon a former evening, he felt it necessary to preface his motion with a few observations. It was now universally admitted among candid and considerate men, that the imprisonment of a debtor should not be continued at the will of a creditor, in other words, that a creditor
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should net have the power of imprisoning his debtor for such a period as could not possibly do himself any service, while it must be ruinous and tormenting to the debtor. Upon this indisputable principle, the late law for the relief of insolvent debtors was founded. That law was, however, deemed by some persons to be so defective, that a number of petitions, complaining of its operation, were presented to the House within the last parliament, and these petitions were referred to the consideration of a committee, who found that certain of their allegations were not without grounds, but it was also found that many of the complaints of the petitioners were as applicable to the old law as to that against which they were especially directed. The principal objection to the late law was, that the creditors had no power to inquire into the effects of the debtor at the time of his arrest, or until the period of his application for a final discharge. This it was proposed to remedy in the bill before the House. But as it was objected to the bill brought forward in the course of the last session, that a debtor should not be peremptorily required to deliver up, on the petition or demand of a certain proportion of his creditors, a schedule of his effects, within fourteen days after his arrest, that period being deemed too short, it was proposed, in the present bill, that if such a demand should be made by the creditors within those fourteen days, the debtor should be allowed fourteen days time to comply with that demand after the petition containing it was presented. The debtor was, however, in the mean time, liable to be called upon for the surrender of his property into the hands of an assignee of the court. Another complaint preferred against the late law was, that the agents who practiced in the insolvent debtors' court were not attorneys, or in a due degree under the control of the court, and to remedy this it was proposed that none but regularly admitted attorneys should be allowed to practise. But against this proposition many objections were urged, and among others it was stated, that if none but regularly admitted attorneys were allowed to practise, the whole of the business was likely to be thrown into the hands of the lowest class of attorneys, from whose practices more evil was apprehended than from any description of agents hitherto connected with this court. Hence it was deemed expedient to propose in the pre-

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sent bill, that the court should have the power of appointing agents for the insolvents, whether attorneys or not, according to its discretion, while it should be open to the creditors to appoint their own agents or attorneys. The next important provision in this bill was, that of enabling creditors to compel debtors to take advantage of the act, and to surrender their property after they should have been in custody for a period of nine months. It was of course meant to include in this provision, that if any surplus property should remain after his debts were discharged, such surplus should be delivered over to the debtor, according to the principle of the old law. With regard to the property acquired by debtors after their discharge, it was found by the inquiries of the committee before alluded to, that notwithstanding the provision of the law upon the subject, very little if any such property had been found available for the benefit of the creditors. One of the new provisions, therefore, was, to enact some security for the creditors upon this subject, by investing the court with the power of prohibiting any debts found due to the debtor after his discharge from being paid to him; and also to intercept any legacy which might be bequeathed to him before it reached his hands; the funds arising from such sources to be placed in the hands of the assignee of the debtor, for the satisfaction of the creditors.—Now, as to the constitution of the court: according to the late law, only one judge presided over its proceedings, and that arrangement, it was proposed by the bill of last session, still to continue, with the addition of two examiners. But upon farther consideration, and especially in consequence of the multiplicity of business to be done, previous to the final decision upon the case of petitioning debtors, that business being of such a nature as to require great attention and acute discrimination, it was thought desirable to have three judges appointed. If there were only one judge, it must be obvious that in case of his removal or sudden death, it might be very difficult, if not impracticable, at once to find a successor duly qualified to conduct the affairs of such a court; and the delay, with the inconveniences of a change of system, perhaps, would be productive of serious injury to the debtors.
Mr. Macdonaldrose, not to oppose the motion, but to make a few remarks upon
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the proposition with which his noble friend had concluded. With the proposition of appointing three judges id the court under consideration, he could by no means agree. He objected to such an appointment upon the ground of the increased expense which it must occasion, and any addition to the public expense was peculiarly objectionable at a period like the present. But the ground of necessity alleged for this new appointment was, he must take leave to say, not at all of an adequate nature. In his view, indeed, the additional or what was termed the previous business of this court, might be done in a more effectual way, by the two examiners which were proposed on a former occasion, to inquire into each case, than by the two new judges whom the noble lord now recommended. But upon what ground did the noble lord think it necessary to propose three judges, while he thought one judge sufficient in the month of December last? The business of the insolvent court could not surely require more previous inquiry than that of any of our courts of equity, and in those courts the previous business was all done by officers delegated by each court to inquire and report, but not to adjudge upon each case respectively. Why, then, should not the same principle be applied to the insolvent debtors court, that was found to operate with such effect in the other courts of justice? The expense of the new appointments was, he repeated, a considerable objection to his noble friend's plan—more particularly, as any previous business which the two new judges might have to discharge, and for which, no doubt, it was meant to grant them settled salaries, might be quite as well done by examiners, for a moderate fee upon each case. What he had said on the discussion of the motion, with respect to the appointing the vice-chancellor he could not help adverting to upon the present occasion, namely, that the public should not be encumbered with the expense arising out of the appointment of any new judge, while there were such anomalies as the Welch judges, who were comparatively unemployed. Here, he observed, the public might find a fund of judges, who could be used in aid of any of the ordinary tribunals in Westminster-hall, if such aid were required, or to discharge the duties of any new judicial office that might be deemed necessary. These judges could find ample leisure

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from the performance of their duty in Wales to attend to any such objects. Should, then, any additional judges be deemed necessary for the business of the Insolvent Debtors court, he hoped that it would be determined to draw upon this fund of judges, rather than to encumber the country with the expense of any new appointments. His noble friend had observed that it was necessary to have more than one judge in the court alluded to, lest upon his death there should be any delay or difficulty in finding a person competent to succeed. But how could such difficulty be apprehended, as an adequate successor could be readily selected from among the practising barristers in this court, and he must suppose that a successor to such an office was most likely to be taken from that body. Such certainly appeared to be the more eligible course. His noble friend's apprehension, then, upon this ground furnished by no means a satisfactory reason for his proposition. But his noble friend's apprehension of the inconvenience that might result to a court where only one judge presided, in case of that judge's death, because another might not be readily found to take his place, would seem to call for the appointment of other new judges as well as those at present proposed; for it would be recollected that there was only one judge in the court of chancery, as well as in the vice chancellor's and the Roll's court. If more sufficient reasons were not assigned for his noble friend's proposition than he had yet heard, he should feel it his duty to move an amendment in the committee upon this bill, that instead of three judges, there should be only one judge, with two examiners appointed in the court under consideration.
Mr. Brightthought that some means should be devised to make a distinction, in the operation of the measure before the House, between the case of the honest unfortunate and that of the fraudulent debtor; for it was obviously unjust that the same measure of punishment should be inflicted alike upon all debtors before they could avail themselves of the proposed law. Some scale of imprisonment then, or some criterion of distinction, ought to be established. The cases of fraud and of suffering disclosed before the committee upon this subject forcibly called for such an arrangement. If an accusation of fraud were made by any one creditor, by the practice of the Insolvent Debtors court
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the accused was allowed to compound with that accuser, while he was released with regard to the claims of his other creditors. Of this practice he very much disapproveed, thinking that whenever any accusation of fraud was proved, the fraudulent debtor should be remanded for the usual period, upon all the claims preferred against him; for this law should in no case be allowed to shelter the fraudulent debtor from condign punishment. Some provisions should also be made in this bill to facilitate the recovery of property acquired by the debtor after being person all discharged from the claims of his creditors. He concurred with the noble lord in thinking that three judges were better than one for a court of this nature, as cases of great difficulty and troublesome investigation were so likely to be brought before it, and therefore he thought judges with settled salaries, would answer much better than examiners with occasional allowances, as these allowances would be too apt to tempt such officers to an unnecessary prolongation of their inquiries. There was another provision which he would take the liberty of suggesting, namely, that in any case in which a judge might think it necessary, he should be empowered to have a jury called in to assist his inquiries. For in such cases of complicated fraud as were likely to come before this court, it was most desirable that a judge should be at liberty to appeal for aid to that noble institution of British jurisprudence, the concentrated judgment of a jury. The hon. gentleman concluded with observing that he could see no reason why persons confined for Crown debts should be exempted from the benevolent operation of this bill, or that any distinction should be drawn between the Crown and any other creditors of an imprisoned debtor. It ought, at least in his judgment, to be provided, that Crown prisoners should be allowed to appeal to the court of King's-bench, which court should be empowered to commute the claim, or to discharge any prisoner, where it saw due cause for clemency.
Mr. Littletonbore testimony to the excellent conduct of the noble mover, throughout the whole of the investigations and discussions which had taken place upon this question. That conduct was, indeed, the subject of praise in every circle where he heard the question alluded to. He therefore hoped the noble lord would follow his own views upon the mea-

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sure before the House, being convinced that this was the course most likely to meet the general approbation of the country.
Lord Althorpthanked the hon. gentleman for the compliment which he had thought proper to bestow upon his labours; but he begged it to be understood that whatever he had been enabled to do was owing to the assistance of the very intelligent committee with which he had had the honour to co-operate. He indeed went into that committee comparatively unacquainted with the subject, but he found himself enlightened in the progress of the inquiry, both as to principles and details, by the information and judgment of his able colleagues. He agreed entirely with the hon. member for Bristol, that Crown debtors ought not to be exempted from the operation of the proposed law. But when he mentioned his wish upon the subject in the committee, he found the attorney-general's objections were such that he was afraid of pressing the proposition in that House, lest he should hazard the fate of the bill. With regard to the hon. member's suggestion to authorise the appointment of a jury in certain cases, it was to be recollected that a jury could not be impanelled without expense, and that the petitioners to the Insolvent Debtors' court were generally mere paupers, who had not the means of defraying any expense. Again, it might be apprehended, that if a judge of this court were allowed to call in the aid of a jury, he might feel too much disposed to throw the responsibility, in certain cases, from his own shoulders. Besides, it was to be remembered, that the court alluded to was appointed not so much to, try matters of fact as to decide upon cases or equity. On these grounds he found the objections to the impanelling of a jury in this court so very strong, that he could not persuade himself to make the proposition, notwithstanding his reverence for that noble institution the trial by jury. The appointment of three judges he had been induced to propose from a variety of reasons which to his mind were quite satisfactory, and among others from the experience of the commissioners in bankrupt cases, which cases were so very analogous to those usually brought under the consideration of the Insolvent Debtors' court. When, indeed, the advantages likely to result from the proposed appointments were taken into consideration, be could not
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suppose that the amount of the salaries annexed to those appointments, or any expense of that nature could at all weigh with the House against the attainment of such advantages.
The bill was then read a second time.

MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE WOOL TAX.
Lord Milton,on rising to submit the motion of which he had given notice, said he felt the difficulty as well as the importance of the duty he had undertaken, from the particular relation in which he stood to the petitioners, and from the great interest which a large body of his constituents had at stake. He might, however, say, with truth, that he was not swayed by the opinion of his constituents, for, whatever had been their sentiments, he should have entertained the same opinions that he now held. Those opinions were not new or speculative, but were founded on principles that appeared to be as immutable as truth itself. It had invariably been our policy to import the raw material of our manufactures at as cheap a price as possible; for he would not admit, that in particular instances, such as in the importation of cotton wool or raw silk, a contrary principle had been acted on: and if, as in the case of cotton a different policy had been pursued, it was only where the particular article of trade could bear an increase of price. It was during the last session, that that principle had, for the first time, with respect to the importation of wool, been departed from; and here he would observe, that there was considerable difficulty in dealing with the question, on account of the different appearances which it assumed; it was a sort of Proteus that changed its face as arguments were addressed to it. He did not mean to say that it had been so stated in that House; but he had seen many persons to whom it had been represented as a measure intended for very different and very opposite purposes; for to some it had been represented as a duty imposed merely for the purpose of assisting the revenue, and to others as a protection to the agriculturists. Now, it was impossible that it could be viewed in both these lights. As a measure of revenue it must necessarily be ineffectual, because at the time this duty was laid on, a greater revenue was derived from the importation of wool than had since been produced. Those who supported the tax might say, that it had not yet had time to be productive;

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but still the returns showed that the importation had been so much reduced that the revenue lost considerably. It appeared from the Custom-house returns on the table, that during the eight months previous to the operation of this tax, 11,000,000 lbs. had been imported at the old duty, and, that, during the next four months only 230,000 lbs. had been imported at the new duty: and this document clearly proved that the importer of the raw material was unable to support the duty imposed. He knew it would be said, that this reduction was owing to the great quantity of wool in the country before the tax was imposed; and those who used this argument, would refer to the great importations made in 1818. He was aware that in that year twenty-four or twenty-five millions of pounds of wool had been brought into the country; but that was, at a period when the expectations of the importer were encouraged by the manufacturer, and when there was likely to be a great demand for the raw material. Now, however, instead of an increase of the manufacture, there was a great diminution in every part of the kingdom, and consequently no encouragement to the importer. But it did so happen, that there was only one part of the kingdom, the West Riding of Yorkshire, where the state of the woollen manufacture could be accurately known; and the account of the quantity of cloth milled in that district, proved this at least, that the state of the manufacture was such that it was madness on the part of the legislature to attempt increasing the revenue by such a duty as this. By this account it appeared, that during the last year only, 7,000,000 yards of cloth had been milled; and, on comparing this quantity with that of former years, he was obliged to go so far back as to the year 1794, before he could find so small a quantity. When the increased population of the country must have increased the demand at home for these articles, he nevertheless found, that the present demand was less than it had been in any of the last twenty-five years. That could not be merely owing to the distressed state of this country, but must be ascribed, in a great measure, to the falling off of our foreign trade. On the subject of foreign trade he might entertain opinions which some persons would, perhaps, consider singular: his opinion was diametrically opposed to that of those who contended that the more you export and the less you
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import the richer you must be. It was not his intention to enter into that question at present; but he thought that we could not deal with other parts of the world but on terms of reciprocal advantage, and that we could not export our manufactures to other countries without importing their commodities in the same proportion. The documents of the Custom-house could not show whether the country was in a prosperous, or in an adverse situation; and too much stress he apprehended was laid on them both by ministers and others. They could not overcome the evidence of people's senses, which was the best proof of prosperity or adversity. In a country like this, when the great and opulent were not satisfied with even all the luxuries of the world, there must be an import trade, and in return for these commodities there must be other articles exported. If we imported sugar from the West Indies, and tea from the East Indies, we must export our manufactures in return. It would not do to export raw produce. Let the House look at Poland, the greatest exporter of grain. Would they wish this country to be reduced to the exporting poverty of Poland? In the same manner in the exportation of timber from Prussia and North America, they had additional proofs of the poverty which the exporting of raw materials always indicated. If they traced the progress of states, they would find that a retrogradation of prosperity had always led back from manufacturing to agricultural and pastoral labours. This country had. an immense load of debt, whether incurred justly or not he would not inquire; and with that debt it could not afford to be poor. If we wished to bear it, as honest men should bear their debts, we must go on increasing; in wealth. The increase of wealth was nothing but the increase of the productions of the earth; and, as it was the industry and labour of man that called these productions forth, the greater the industry that was bestowed on them, the more valuable they became. Now, he would ask, if it could be the interest of this country, to check the importation of those raw materials on which, by the ingenuity and industry of man, so great an additional value might be conferred? He believed the value of wool imported into this country was doubled by being manufactured into cloth—[cries, "More, more"]; indeed, on recollection, he believed it was

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in some cases quadrupled, and even quintupled. Thus, the finest wool imported cost 6s., and the finest manufactured cloth exported from this country was sold for 35 s. He did not mean to say that in this case the value of the wool was multiplied by 5, because there were other articles employed in the process of manufacturing the cloth; but, the instance he had given showed at least that in the manufactured state its value was more than doubled. In the account of the examination which took place last winter before the privy-council, he found it stated by one of the persons examined, that in the American market our cloth manufactures had an advantage of 7½ per cent over those of French and Flemish manufacture; that was, when French and Flemish cloth was sold at 100, English cloth of the same quality could be sold at 92 or 93. Now, if to this price the new duty were added, it would make English cloth rise to 97 or 98; and this, he thought, was running a race with France and Flanders, and incurring a risk of losing the American market, which, on every principle of policy and prudence, ought to be avoided. By this course we were running the risk of losing America, with whom, of all countries in the world, it was most important that we should maintain connexion. Franklin had told America, and told her truly, that she ought not to think of manufactures for a century to come; and yet we were driving a rising country, and an increasing population, either to manufacture for themselves, or to purchase their goods from the manufacturers of the continent. But it was not in America only that we should find ourselves pressed by the continental manufactures; that opposition would meet us in every quarter of the world. England had enjoyed a monopoly of commerce during the war; but it was not to be supposed that she could rest upon her oars, and enjoy the same monopoly during peace. The face of affairs was changed—changed, not as had been said by some gentlemen, by our transition from a state of war to a state of peace, but changed as regarded our sole command of that element, upon the bosom of which our commerce was carried on. Let not the landed gentlemen suppose—let them not hope—that they could ameliorate the condition of their tenants, by the simple expedient of a tax upon foreign wool. The wool produced in England did not amount to a fifteenth part of the general produce of
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the country; and it was ridiculous to suppose, that by increasing the value of a fifteenth of our produce, any material effect could be produced as to the whole: the very idea was as foolish as that which had occurred to several gentlemen whom he admired and esteemed; and which had tempted them to introduce a foreign breed of sheep into the country, with a view of raising, within ourselves that finer wool which we were now obliged to purchase from bur neighbours. To him it appeared that nature; up to a certain point, had indicated by her own acts the peculiar species of animals, as well as vegetables, properly adapted to particular climates; and that he who attempted to introduce into England the finer wools of Saxony or Spain, would be as much disappointed in the result of his endeavours, as the man who should carry to the torrid zone the long-fleeced sheep peculiar to England. He had not, his lordship continued, countenanced the signing of petitions upon the subject; he had found it impossible to prevent petitions from being drawn up; but he felt that he should have acted dishonestly towards the suffering classes, if he had even held out an idea that the abolition of this tax would restore to them a trade which had been lost to them by causes entirely unconnected with it. All he intended—all he had said—was, that when a manufacture was of itself declining, that measure was impolitic which should cause it to decline still farther. It was impossible to look at the situation of the manufacturers in the county which he represented, without feelings of the most agonizing description. In the name of prudence, as well as in the name of common feeling, he called upon the House to repeal a duty which distressed the manufacturer without assisting the agriculturist; and which, so far from increasing or aiding the revenue, went to destroy those sources from which the revenue ought to be derived. The noble lord then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Tax on Foreign Wool."
Mr. Wilsonseconded the motion, and said, that it was necessary that a great manufacturing country should depend upon its exports, to enable it to indulge in the luxuries which were obtained from foreign countries. It appeared to be the general feeling of the House, that a more liberal system of commercial policy should be pursued, and in that feeling he was happy to find that the president of the

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board of trade participated. If taxes were levied upon articles which were not taxed before the war, they would operate as a premium or bonus to foreign manufactures. The tax would press most severely upon the coarser manufactures; and it was quite clear that in articles of this description, such as the Yorkshire cloths, which fetched from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d. a yard, no degree of ingenuity would enable the manufacturer to compete with foreigners, when he had to pay an additional duty of 6d. a lb., from which the foreign manufacturer was wholly exempt. With respect to the increase of value, upon which the noble lord had made some observations, it was to be recollected, that a considerable proportion of the raw material was brought from Smyrna and the Cape of Good Hope. When, therefore, the freightage to the ship-owner, the expenses of carriage, and other circumstances were taken into calculation, it could not be doubted that the original cost of the article was increased tenfold. As to the effect of the tax upon the interests of agriculturists, it was uniformly observed that the poor's rates pressed most heavily upon agriculturists, when the manufactures of the country were in a state of depression. It was the interest, therefore, of agriculturists to oppose a tax which was calculated to throw a number of manufacturers out of employment, and consequently to increase the burthen of the poor's rates. Ministers would do well to repeal the additional duty, which had added nothing to the revenue, and which, even if it had better answered their expectations, it would be a wiser course to give up, than, by retaining it, to create distress and increase the burthen of the poor's rates.
Mr. Westernthought that the hon. member who spoke last had taken rather too much for granted. If he believed that the tax would prevent the manufacturer from going freely into foreign markets, he should concur with that hon. member in his disapprobation of it. It should not be forgotten, however, that one of the first effects of this duty had been to induce Spain to take off part of her export duty. It was a curious circumstance, that during a period of the most extensive exportation of coarse woollen manufactures, not more than half the quantity of foreign wool had found its way into this country, which came into it at present. In the year 1790, not more than 3,000,000 lbs. of wool had been imported.
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The annual importation during the last five or six years had been 17,000,000 lbs. Was it not probable, that in proportion to the ease with which foreign wool was obtained, the growth of our native wool would be discouraged? It had been said by the noble lord that this could not at once be a measure of revenue, and protection. It might answer both those purposes. It might prevent the inundation of foreign wool, without amounting absolutely to a prohibition. It had been said, and with truth, that within the last four months, little or no wool had been imported; but it should not be forgotten, that heavy importations took place just before that time, with a view to avoid the payment of the additional duty; and besides, the importation of the preceding year had amounted to 26,000,000 of pounds. The noble lord had adverted to the introduction of the growth of fine wool in this country. His conduct, however, upon that point should not be governed by the advice of the noble lord; but it would be materially influenced by the advice of that noble lord's constituents. Those persons, it was evident, differed in opinion from the noble lord, for they thought and declared that the introduction of that wool was likely essentially to benefit the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he continued in the same sentiments which he had expressed in the course of the last session, and agreed with the hon. gentleman, that whatever might be the ultimate effect of the measure, no sufficient experiment had yet been made to warrant the proposed alteration. If it was improper, generally speaking, to apply a tax to the raw material, it was a principle no less sound, that by the effect of taxation our natural produce should be supported. The noble lord had adverted in his speech to general principles, as regarded the present question, and if the ordinary rules of political economy could be dispensed with in one case they might be dispensed with in another. That noble lord had stated, that the present measure was sometimes called a measure of protection, and sometimes a measure of revenue; and he had declared, that whatever might be said in its defence upon the one ground, must necessarily operate against it upon the other. Now, he saw no such inconsistency. The article would be a fair article for the support of the revenue; if it could

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be proved that the consumption was not so far diminished by the tax, but that to a considerable extent it would still remain. The measure would operate as a protection to our native wool, if, while it admitted sufficient foreign material for the purposes of manufacture, it prevented such an influx of low priced foreign wools, as would destroy the production of the raw material at home. He knew no fitter article for taxation than one of which the consumption was gradually, constantly, and continually increasing. Such ah article was foreign wool. It would be found, that in the year 1791–2 the quantity annually imported amounted to about 2,800,000 lbs. This was before the commencement of the late war. It was not until the year 1814 that the importation amounted to 6,000,000 lbs. and in the year 1818 it arose to 26,000,000 lbs. It would be found that the increase of our exportation of manufactured goods had by no means kept pace with our importation of the raw material; during that period, in which our importations had increased, in the proportion of nearly five to one, our exports had only risen two-sixths upon their former amount. It would be evident, therefore, that a great quantity of the imported wool must have been thrown for a considerable time upon the market. The woollen trade, as regarded the raw material, might be divided into three classes; the finer wools, which were imported from Saxony and Spain, some of which were now produced at home, and some from the British colonies, from New South Wales, and from the Cape of Good Hope. This species of wool formed two-thirds of the whole quantity imported, and upon this species of wool it was not supposed that the duty in question had any sensible effect. With respect to what had been said, as to his previous statement of the amount of revenue to be produced by this tax, the importation of fine wool alone would nearly cover that amount: 4,300,000 l. to arise from a duty of sixpence per pound, from which the old tax of one penny per pound being deducted, 250,000 l. would remain, was all that he had promised to parliament. Now, the average produce of the last year had amounted to 19,000,000 lbs.—say 16,000,000; and supposing one-fourth of it, on account of the low priced wool to be deducted, there would then remain 12,000,000 lbs which at once would give the 300,000 l. The second class to be considered was the
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long wool, which was the exclusive product of this country, and which he had heard afforded to us in our manufactures a peculiar advantage over all other nations. If this was true, little danger, he imagined could be apprehended from the tax in question. It was contended by some manufacturers, that there was a certain class of articles, articles of recent invention, which could not be made without a mixture of some portion of foreign coarse wool. At all events, that assertion deserved examination, for every branch of British industry deserved to be encouraged. The interests of the wool grower and bf the manufacturers were most intimately connected, and if the wool grower was ruined by free importation, the manufacturer would be deprived of his best and safest reliance. The exportation of woollen manufactures had not fallen off more than the cotton, the hardware, and not so much as many other articles. The distress which had been quoted as existing in Sheffield was a sufficient proof that distress was not produced by the operation of the wool-tax alone. Much of the present distress, in fact, the greater part, might be attributed to a want of exportation to America. It would be found upon examination, that the circulation of bank paper in that country was reduced from 110,000,000 to 45,000,000 of dollars. He did not mean to attribute the whole embarrassment of the American trade to that cause, but that cause had doubtless operated to a very considerable extent. America, however, would recover rapidly, and the inconveniences which we were experiencing from a want of exportation to that country would at the same moment be removed. It was not in England only that a depression of the woollen trade had taken place. The manufacturers of France had quite as much cause for complaint as the manufacturers of this country. In France, however, no new wool-tax had been imposed and therefore their distress, at least, must be referable to other causes. The right hon. gentleman concluded by declaring, that he should oppose the present motion. He was not of opinion that the tax had been fairly tried, but as far as it had been tried, it certainly had not failed.
Mr. Stuart Wortleyfelt that both his noble friend and himself, as representatives of the county in which this great manufacture was principally carried on, would be listened to with some suspicion

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by the House. No power, however, should induce him, and he was sure that no power would induce his noble friend, to advocate any cause which he did not conscientiously believe to be a just one. He would advert, in the first place, to the time when the tax in question was originally imposed, in order to separate any distress which that tax might have produced from the distress which had existed before that tax was in being. He did not mean to say, that any very great degree of distress had been produced by the, operation of that tax, but he could not think that no ill effect was to be attributed to it; because, if he was to believe that which was stated by the merchants, and by the manufacturers of the country, he must believe that it had prevented those persons from speculating upon the orders, which, at this period of the year, they usually expected to receive, and, as a natural consequence, had gone to deprive the labouring classes of employ. That the situation of the country was pitiable beyond the conception of that House, he of his own knowledge could assert. The change in the appearance of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the change of appearance in the great market of Leeds, within the last two years, was incredible. Two years ago, the people of the West Riding, were some of the best-looking, best dressed, and most cheerful in the country; and when he went back to canvass the county upon a late occasion, the difference in the appearance of the people, the change in their countenances, the change in their clothes, and the general alteration in the aspect of the town, had impressed him with feelings which would not be easily erased from his mind. The chancellor of the exchequer had laid much stress upon the circumstance of the Spanish export-tax having been taken off as soon as the present import-tax was imposed, as if it were merely taking so much money out of the exchequer of Spain, and putting so much money into the exchequer of England. The manufacturers complained, "this tax drives us out of the foreign markets," and the right hon. gentleman answered, "the Spanish export tax is taken off." It was taken off certainly, but it was not taken off as regarded this country alone, but as regarded all other countries, and if there was only a probability that the manufacturers were right, he, notwithstanding the attachment which he professed to the government, and the
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support which he had been accustomed to afford it, would say, that the present tax was as cruel a blow as ever was inflicted by any government upon a suffering people. No doubt, fine wool might be produced in the country, and no doubt we had lately produced finer wool than we had formerly been accustomed to produce, but we never could produce that quality of wool which was imported from Spain, and which was in dispensable to the manufacture of the finer cloths. If the tax had only been imposed upon fine wool, it was possible that fine wool might bear it, because that wool must come to this country to work up, the English wool. As to the coarse wool, there was a great quantity of cloth necessary for the foreign markets, which required a quality of wool not grown in this country to be mixed with the long wool; and if we were shut out from obtaining that coarse wool, we could not manufacture such cloths. Then could there be a doubt that wool which was imported at the cost price of eightpence must be totally excluded, by a duty of sixpence? He would ask any farmer who had the happiness to possess land which would bear these long-woolled sheep, whether he could be so well paid by any other description of produce? Unless the long wool could not be consumed by the manufacturers of our own country, it would be folly to allow its exportation, because that wool would be worked up abroad with the foreign short wool which we were now seeking to exclude, and the consequence would be, that foreigners would beat us even in our own manufactures. It was the universal opinion of those persons whose means of existence depended upon the woollen manufacture, that the tax in question had been a deadly blow to it, and from that tax he trusted they would be released by the decision of the House.
Mr. Huskissonthought that the hon. gentleman who spoke last had mistaken the meaning of the chancellor of the exchequer as of the abolition of the Spanish export duty. It had merely been stated, that the tax being levied now in England, and not in Spain, went into the treasury of England, and not into the Spanish treasury. He believed it would scarcely be denied, that three-fourths of the foreign wool which was imported into this country was consumed by the population of this country; consequently, if the tax which had existed in Spain was now levied in England, that tax, as regarded the

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people of this country was no additional burthen. Three-fourths of the quantity imported was consumed in this manner; the remaining fourth was manufactured and exported. The question was, whether that was a wise tax which put 250,000 l. a-year into the Treasury, without levying any new burthen on the people? He should have liked to have asked the hon. gentleman what was the proportion of Spanish wool exported to other parts of the world as compared with England? He believed it would be found that France imported not less than 500,000 lbs., certainly not exceeding a million pounds, and that in fact more than 7–10ths of the Spanish wool exported came to this country alone. The question was narrowed to the consideration of the coarse wools only, the importation of which into this country first took place about four or five years ago, when our coarse wools were at most enormous prices. The hon. gentleman had stated that the admixture of these wools was necessary to make a certain description of woollen goods, that is, the whole consumption of British and foreign wool together being about 160 millions of pounds, of which about three millions of pounds were of foreign wool paying the tax, which was the enormous grievance complained of, and that was to occasion the total ruin of all our woollen manufactures. In the whole history of the system of protecting duties, as they were called, he challenged the noble lord and the hon. gentleman to show him a single instance like that of the wool-growers of this country: they were confined to the markets of England for the sale of their produce, and before the tax was laid on were without any protection from the competition of the foreign wool-grower. What would the West India merchant say, if foreign sugars were thus allowed to come in competition with the produce of our own islands? The tax, he thought was necessary as a protection to the growers of British wool, and it was but common justice to allow it them; for if a free export were permitted, he was satisfied much greater advantages would accrue to them than any which they could derive from the protective power of the tax. He wished, on the part of the wool-grower, nothing more than a fair competition with foreigners in all the markets of the world; but if he was confined to the market of this country only, then certain-
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ly they ought to protect him in that to which he was so limited. The noble lord said that this was the only instance of a tax on the raw material? Was not cotton a raw material? Was not timber taxed, and was not that a raw material of considerable importance to this country? The numerous packages in which goods were exported from hence were thus all taxed. The dying drugs and oil used in that very manufacture of woollens, were they not raw materials, and all taxed, but taxed with a reference to the wants of the country on the one hand, and with the least possible prejudice to the manufacturers on the other? The distress to which the noble lord had alluded had arisen from more general causes—causes pressing on every class of trade, agriculture, and manufactures. If he had inquired into the state of the cotton trade, he would in that have found the same diminution in demand, the same reduction of wages, in short, the same distress as complained of in the woollen trade. How, then, could the distress in that branch be attributed to the tax? The diminution was attributable to the diminished demand in America; for on a comparison of the exports of last year as compared with the exports of the preceding year to that country, it would appear that there had been a falling oft" in the cotton trade of more than one-half; in the hardware manufactures, full one-half; and the export of woollens, though considerably diminished, had, in fact, suffered the least diminution of any. Comparing the exports of woollens to all the world, after deducting the diminution of America, it would appear that there was very little falling off; indeed, less in that article than in any other: from which it was evident that that effect had not been produced by any of our internal regulations. The order which was said to have been received in this country from Russia, and which could not be executed at the price limited, might have had that price fixed so low, that notwithstanding cur reduced rate of labour it could not be executed; but was it executed any where else? He would answer that it was not; for in no other place could it be executed for want of British coarse wool, which was only to be had here. He had thought it his duty to inquire into the state of the woollen trade on the continent, and had found it, from the operation of the same causes, still more depressed and distressed than

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it was here. He thought there was no reason to expect that the tax would affect the export of any articles of which British wool was a component part, and that they were bound to give it a fair trial, not as regarded the revenue, which he conceived to be a secondary consideration, but for the protection of the wool-grower, whom the House would be bound, if they repealed the tax, not to leave in the situation he was before placed in; for he was confident the manufacturers themselves must think the monopoly of British wool was a boon to them, far more than adequate to any loss arising from the tax. If, therefore, it was not thought desirable by any party to open the trade for the export of British wool, it was essential that the British grower should be protected from the competition of the foreigner in the market to which he was limited.
Mr. Curwensaid, he thought the woollen manufactures, above all others, demanded the peculiar protection of the House, and that a more impolitic tax than the present had never been proposed; for at the same time that it failed to assist the agriculturist, for whose benefit it was said to be laid on, it operated a direct and considerable injury to the manufacturer. Whatever tended to decrease productive labour must be injurious, and this measure was of that description; for it discouraged the woollen trade, which employed a larger proportion of people than any other. He wished that every labouring hand in the country should be productively employed; as many as possible in agriculture, and the remainder in commerce and manufactures.
Mr. Philipssaid, he must give the noble lord's motion his support, because he was of opinion that the tax was calculated to prevent exportation, and by no means adapted to relieve the distresses of the manufacturing classes.
Mr. J. Smithsaid, that in the present state of the country, he should be unwilling to vote for the repeal of any tax, unless it pressed heavily upon the people, and was peculiarly injurious to their interests. The reason for this unwillingness was the alarm he felt from the present financial state of the country. Any measure tending to lessen the means of supporting the public credit should be viewed with some degree of alarm. He did not, however, feel disposed to continue the wool tax, as he considered it liable to great objections. The cloth manufacture
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was declining when government came forward to propose this duty. It was a branch of manufacture that required a large capital, and the consequence of the tax must have been to lessen that capital, at a time when the manufactures were in want of it. It was probable also, that the great extension of the cotton manufacture was injurious to that of cloth. It was not correct to say, that the tax produced 300,000 l. a-year.
Mr. Barrettopposed the motion. He did not see how this tax could have raised the price of wool, it being in operation only since October last.
The previous question being put, "That that question be put," the House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 202: Majority against lord Milton's motion, 74.

BRITISH MUSEUM.
The House being in a committee of supply, Mr. Bankes moved, that 10,009 l. 16 s. 16 d. be granted to his majesty, to be applied towards the expenses to be incurred in the management of the British Museum for the year 1820.
Mr. Colbornesaid, that although the country had every reason to expect that a system of economy should, as much as possible, be adopted, still he would not, on an occasion of this kind, be too rigid in pursuing that system. He should be sorry that so important an establishment as the British Museum, which was indeed a national one, should be cramped for want of proper funds. He suggested the propriety of an easier and more general access to the library, which ought also to be put in better order than it was at present. Considerable public advantage had been derived from the readiness with which admission to the other parts of the Museum was allowed, and many individuals had greatly benefitted by it. He could not help regretting that the same liberality was not acted on with respect to other public buildings. He knew not why those who visited Westminster-abbey, St. Paul's, &c., should be obliged to pay for their admission.
Mr. Bankessaid, as the trustees of the Museum had some time since purchased a very large library, which cost a considerable sum, they were determined, oh this occasion, to ask for such an aid as would not bear too hard on the public funds. With respect to placing the books in a more eligible situation, he was afraid it would require a large sum, because the

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present building was not in a secure state. On a survey made by one of the most respectable architects in this country, it was declared to be in a state that did not promise durability. But, as to the situation in which the books were, the hon. member might go to the library, and call for any work he pleased, and he pledged himself that, within five minutes, the identical book would be brought to him. He was of opinion with the hon. member, that greater facilities should be given to the public in visiting their national buildings. With respect to the beautiful pile which was in the immediate vicinity of the House, he recollected the time when greater facilities were given to those visiting it than were afforded at present. Why it was so he could not tell. In France public buildings were open to every visitor; but there no person attempted to deface any of the objects shown to them: here, however, a sort of mischievous feeling, which induced individuals to deface works of art, was sometimes observable. With respect to the library, he did not think it was possible, with safety, to allow a greater degree of access to it than was now permitted. It contained many manuscripts and prints, which curious individuals might damage in the course of their examination. In the course of the last year 63,000 persons had visited the Museum, and during the present a great number of individuals had been admitted. That noble collection, (the Elgin marbles) which had been added to the rich stores of the Museum, had tended greatly to the encouragement of the fine arts.
Mr. W. Smiththought there never was an instance in which the trustees of any institution had more completely seconded the views of parliament than the trustees of the British Musuem had done. The improvements introduced by them, in the last 10 or 15 years, must strike every man who had visited the Museum before and since that time. He conceived it was discreditable to the country, that other public works were not equally open to inspection. Whosoever went to St. Paul's, at the present moment, must pay for admission, as if they visited an exhibition. The only point in which it differed from an exhibition was, that the public convenience was never once thought of by the persons who showed the place. They thought of nothing but the collection of a trifling tax from those who visited the
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building from a laudable curiosity or otherwise. There was not to be found in Europe any one building of the importance of St. Paul's, in such a state of filth, and presenting so much of every thing reprehensible as might be observed there. Little attention was paid to the cleanliness or even permanence of that fine structure; and to its beauty none whatever. All that was considered was, the paltry profit of some equally paltry individual.
Sir R. Wilsonobserved, that the doors of St. Paul's were almost constantly closed. In fact, it was neither ventilated by the air, nor visited by the rays of the sun.
The resolution was agreed to.