Commons Sitting of 12 May 1820

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Earl Temple presented six petitions from the occupiers of land in the county of Buckingham, complaining of the depressed state of the agricultural interests, and praying for inquiry. On the motion for their being laid on the table,
Mr. Humestated, that observing the daily increase of these petitions, he could not avoid saying, that they appeared to him calculated to aggravate the general distress, by calling at such a time for the imposition of additional restrictions on the importation of grain. Could any man acquainted with the country, propose any measure more likely to increase the notorious sufferings of the commercial and manufacturing classes? The extent of those sufferings required of that House to give the fill up to industry, by the removal of all commercial restrictions; and he was the more surprised at the course to which these petitioners manifestly inclined, when it was recollected that the late corn law had altogether failed, as a measure of relief to the body for which it was intended.
Mr. Curwenobserved, that the hon. member was quite mistaken in his representation of the objects of the petitioners. Had lie given himself the trouble to attend to the allegations of the many that had been already presented, he would have found that they abstained from stating any specific measure of relief, but prayed generally for an inquiry. Was that inquiry to be refused by the House? He trusted not; and when it took place, he was convinced it would appear that the object was not to put money into the pockets of the landlord or the farmer, but to enable them to give employment to labour. In the present distressed state of the agricultural interest, he knew, and he said it with pain, that it was made the object of both the landlord and the farmer, to abstract rather than to employ labour. He should be very sorry that any premature discussion on the subject should take place, and therefore he regretted that a gallant and honourable member had on a former night sounded an alarum on the question. There could be no separate
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interest between the great branches of the public. The mechanic was as interested in the prosperity of agriculture as the farmer himself. Let it not, therefore, be sent abroad, that relief was sought alone for the landed interest. In the alleviation of that distress, the public creditor was deeply interested. He feared that nothing was calculated to afford actual relief, but a diminution of taxation—and that, to any great extent, the demands on the public income did not hold out any hope. In his conscience he believed that nothing could be effectually done, until the interest of the debt was diminished.
General Gascoynecontended that the hon. member, who wished too often to discuss a public question in detail, had either not heard him, or had misunderstood him. In place of sounding any alarum, he had implored the House to pause before, in the present state of the public mind, when too many were irritated without cause, it afforded any ground for increasing that agitation. What other object could these petitions all drawn up in a similar manner, and all complaining of the importation of corn have, but to raise the price of that necessary article? He had that day received a letter from a most respectable manufacturer in the neighbourhood of Manchester, requesting his opinion of the propriety of calling meetings and of petitioning, for the purpose of meeting these agricultural petitions. His answer was, that it would be better to wait until the objects of the petitioners were a little better defined.
Sir J. Newportconsidered that the gallant general had not a little contributed to that agitation which he deplored, having taken, in the earliest stage, the opportunity of giving a very decisive opinion on the object of the petitioners. He trusted the doors of that House would never be closed against any class of the people who conceived themselves aggrieved, whenever they approached it with temperate and respectful language. He deprecated the doctrine, that the agricultural body had a separate interest from the rest of the community. Believing the home market to be the most beneficial, the manufacturers had an equal interest in the prosperity of agriculture.
Earl Templesaid, that the petitioners asked only for inquiry; they did not presume to point out the means.
Mr. Ricardowas not disposed to refuse inquiry to the petitioners, though he thought,

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under the present state of the country, such a question ought not to be moved but under the soundest discretion. The labouring classes throughout the kingdom were reduced to the greatest distress. That was not the period, therefore when measures should be taken to increase the price of corn. The agricultural interest had its depression, but still it was to be considered as one class, whose prosperity ought not to be forced at the sacrifice of the general good. There was not a more important question than that of the corn laws. Nothing, in his mind, was better calculated to afford general relief than the lowering of the price of corn. It was the first step to that great remedy, the making labour productive.
Mr. Calcrafthoped that as long as petitioners approached that House in moderate and respectful language, their application for inquiry would be attended to. When the measure for increasing the importation price of corn was under the consideration of parliament, he had voted against it, but though he did not feel himself bound by that conduct to oppose inquiry, he never had conceived that this question could not be viewed as one in which the interests were divided. Agriculture and commerce had an equal and a common interest in their respective prosperity. It was also to be recollected, that the whole burthen of the poor was thrown upon the agricultural interest. That his hon. friend who spoke last, had, on a former evening, admitted to be a question worthy of investigation. Was it not right then to ascertain whether any relief could be afforded, even on that point?
Lord Nugentstated, that he could vouch for the unequivocal respectability of the petitioners. In their allegations as to the poor laws, he agreed with them; in many other respects he differed with them, most particularly as to the extension of the principle by which the price of corn was raised. Such an unnatural increase directly went to raise the price of labour, and add to the pressure of the poor-rates. It was, however, not to be denied, that the distress amongst the occupiers of land was excessive. Many farmers, who were in possession of property, were actually living on their capital, and those who had saved nothing, or but a little, were totally ruined. The country in fact, at the present hour, laboured under a stagnation of all its leading interests. The causes were, to him, plain and obvi-
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ous—an immense debt, and a fictitious paper currency. The measures adopted by that House, relative to the return to cash payments, were but in operation, and during their process he should have no objection to a temporary measure of relief.
Mr. Huskissondeprecated the continuance of any premature discussion on a question which every member must feel to be one of peculiar delicacy. He: therefore suggested that the similar petitions which were to be presented should be allowed to be placed on the table with out discussion, particularly as an hon.; member had already given notice of a motion on these petitions for a future day.
Ordered to lie on the table.

REFORM OF PARLIAMENT.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he held in his hand a petition from the merchants, bankers, and tradesmen, of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of parliamentary reform. The petition was signed by 3016 persons, and for the respectability of their characters he could vouch his own personal knowledge. The meeting at which the petition was agreed to was conducted with the greatest quietness and unanimity. It was the first meeting held under the restrictive laws passed by the last parliament. It sprung from that middle class of life, the respectability of whose characters and station placed their motives beyond suspicion. These petitioners looked for the correction of the evils under which the country now suffered, to a shortening of the duration Of parliaments, to the extension of the suffrage from decayed and notoriously dependent and corrupt boroughs to populous towns. The latter principle had been already acted upon, and he hailed it as a preliminary step in the successful progress of a constitutional reform in the representation. The petitioners begged not to be considered as the advocates of any mischievous doctrines—such as universal suffrage and annual parliaments.
Mr. Lambtonconcurred with the hon. baronet in stating, that the petitioners mere most respectable individuals. They principally belonged to that class of society which had not hitherto taken so great a share in the consideration of public affairs, as he was persuaded it would be highly advantageous to the country they should do—he meant the middle class.

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The original requisition for the meeting was signed by fitly respectable tradesmen of Newcastle. With this requisition, although supported by an eminent banker of Newcastle, the mayor of that town had refused to comply. The motives of that gentleman for his refusal he would not pretend to state, but he must be allowed to express his regret that he had withheld his official sanction to a meeting for the constitutional purpose of petitioning the House of Commons. Under these circumstances the meeting was held without his sanction; and he believed he might say, that its respectability was not thereby diminished. The hon. baronet who had just presented the petition had attended and expressed his sentiments. He hoped and example would be followed, and that those respectable individuals belonging to the middle classes of society who perceived how sensibly the condition of the country was affected by the existing state of the representation, would come forward without delay, and distinctly declare their sentiments. For unless they did so, neither himself nor other hon. members who thought with him, would feel encouraged to make the efforts which the importance of the case demanded. He had himself given notice of a motion on the subject, and when the proper time came, he should be prepared to show, that the prevailing dissatisfaction must inevitably increase, unless some step were promptly and decidedly taken to diminish it. Ordered to he on the table.

CIVIL LIST—PETITION FROM LIVERPOOL.
Lord Seftonpresented a petition from the merchants, housekeepers, and other inhabitants of Liverpool. It was signed by nearly 400 individuals of the highest respectability. The petitioners stated, that they observed that a bill had been brought into the House for the regulation of the civil list, and the}' hoped, that in proceeding to the consideration of that object, the House would bear in mind the existing national distress. The petitioners particularly adverted to the subject of pensions, and described the bad effect on the public mind arising from the lavish and indiscriminate manner in which they were bestowed. They hoped that the amount and disposition of these pensions would be clearly defined by parliament; and they also hoped it might be made the law of the land, that no part of the pension fund should ever be granted
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by the Crown to a member of the House of Commons, or, if so granted, that that member should no longer retain his seat, The noble lord observed, that from the intimate connexion existing between himself and the petitioners, and from his knowledge of their principles, he was persuaded that there were no persons in existence more anxious for the honour and dignity of the Crown: at the same time, they were earnestly solicitous that the situation of the country should be taker into serious consideration by the House.
Mr. Bennettook that opportunity of giving notice, that whenever the civil list bill should come into the committee, he would propose the introduction of a clause, providing, that members of the House of Commons who should receive from the Crown any such grants as those alluded to in the petition, should vacate their seats.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CONDUCT OF THE MILITARY AT OLDHAM.
Mr. Hobhouserose to present a petition from certain inhabitants of Oldham, the contents of which they prayed the House to take into their serious consideration. It appeared from the petition, that a series of military outrages, as the petitioners denominated them, had I recently been committed in the neighbourhood of Oldham. In the first place, he wished to state, that whether these were, or were not, exaggerated accounts of transactions which did not deserve the designation given to them, it was not possible for him to say; but, as far as he could collect information on the subject, he believed that every thing stated I in the petition was perfectly correct; and he would farther add, that there was nothing in the petition that was at all disrespectful to the House. It appeared, according to the petition, that the inhabitants of Oldham had, on two or three occasions, been subjected to the excesses of the military, who, immediately subsequent; to those excesses, had been removed, and replaced by others; in consequence of which, the inhabitants did not know who the soldiers were by whom they had been molested; and therefore they had not the means of procuring justice by a legal process. He understood that, most unfortunately, such a suspicion was entertained of the possibility of receiving justice at the hands of the magistrates, that the inhabitants would much rather go before the commanding officer than apply

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to a justice of the peace, or complain to the magistrates at the New Bailey. Of course, they were still more willing to come to this tribunal; but they particularly stated, that they would not have applied to this tribunal, as their last resource, if any other means presented themselves for procuring redress. The petition was signed by 3,000 individuals; and what they prayed for was, that an investigation into the matter of complaint should be instituted. They also prayed that there should be some diminution, of the standing army. This part of their prayer was not confined to Oldham, but was meant generally. The hon. gentleman then moved that this petition be brought up.
Mr. H. Clivewished to offer a few words on the subject of the petition, which, he believed, was drawn up by a person of some notoriety, who came from London, and was now connected with the Manchester Observer. That individual had, he understood, felt a strong inclination to charge the military with riotous behaviour. On the 25th of April, a sort of rejoicing took place at Oldham, and at one of the public-houses, where a number of the town people were assembled, there happened also to be a few of the military. A most improper toast was given by one of the former, on which the soldiers wished to withdraw, and they were grossly insulted. On the following day, the same toast was repeated at another alehouse. The obnoxious toast was, "May the skin of every loyal man be torn from his back, in order to make a drum for the reformers to beat to arms!" Was it possible, he would ask, for any person serving the king to hear such a toast without resenting it? There were only five or six soldiers in the room, and there were twenty of the inhabitants present, who attacked the military when they remonstrated on the impropriety of their conduct. One of the soldiers went out, in consequence, and called on his comrades to come and protect their companions from being murdered. In the mean time, the House was filled with townspeople, and about ten or fifteen soldiers procured admission, by breaking the pannels of the door, for they had been barricadoed out. They met with resistance, and they gave and received blows. There the business ended; but individuals in the town made the matter of more importance than it really was, and
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the commanding officer was induced to inquire into it. In consequence, he ordered the detachment of men to be removed from the town, and at the same time gave every publicity to the circumstance which the case required. He also believed that the magistrates directed an inquiry to be made into the affair; and therefore he conceived the House would think it hardly necessary to institute any further proceeding.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, that all that had been observed by the hon. gentleman was so very little to the purpose, in the present stage of the proceeding, that he certainly would not have risen, if it were not for the disposition which the hon. gentleman evinced to reject the petition. It appeared to him to be of very little importance who might or might not be the drawer up of that petition. And it would be most extraordinary, if, on a mere statement of the kind which the hon. gentleman had made to the House—a statement which he doubtless had received from some persons connected with the transaction—it should be decided, as a matter of course, that there was no ground for this complaint, which described an outrage affecting all the inhabitants of the town, and testified by 3,000 of them. It was of a more serious and important nature than the hon. gentleman seemed to suppose. It was indeed so important, that he hoped the House would not only receive the petition now, but would not let it remain long on their table, without instituting some inquiry into the facts. It appeared to him to be a subject of such magnitude, that he thought he should be hardly doing his duty to the country, if he did not call for an inquiry into the matters which that petition disclosed. He thought it was impossible for them to reject this petition, without any reason of any kind being given for such a proceeding—without even knowing the matter which it contained—merely from the statement of an hon. gentleman. When they were informed that the most weak and defenceless part of the community had attacked men who always had the power to overbear those whom they disliked, and who always, more particularly under the existing circumstances of the country, felt a strong inclination to use that power, they should listen to the assertion cautiously, and abstain from rejecting the petition on such a statement.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad

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no doubt of the truth of the statement made by his hon. friend, but still he thought it would be wrong to reject the petition in the first instance. The petition ought, in his opinion, to be received; but whether any further proceeding should be adopted respecting it, was a matter for future consideration.
Mr. Bootle Wilbrahamhoped that the motion of the hon. presenter would be agreed to; but in so desiring his object was different from that of the hon. baronet. He viewed the subject in a light very different from that in which the hon. baronet saw it. He wished the allegations of the petition should be known and canvassed, because he believed that the more they were known and canvassed, the less ground would there appear for the complaint. He believed the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clive) had stated the facts as they really were, and he trusted that the whole matter would go fairly before the public. They would be enabled to judge, from the reading of the petition, whether there was any good cause of complaint on the part of those individuals; and therefore he hoped the petition would be received.
Mr. H. Clivesaid, he did not think there was any good ground for the complaint, and he had, under that impression, opposed the petition in the first instance.
Lord Miltonsaid, that the statement of the hon. gentleman opposite, and the sort of opposition the petition had met with, were, he conceived, most unfortunate. He could not help thinking, that those who made such statements, and offered such opposition, were consulting their feelings and passions, rather than their justice and discretion. Whether the statement of the hon. gentleman behind him, or that of the hon. secretary opposite, were the true one, mattered nothing. The complaint was of too grave and serious a nature not to call for the consideration of the House. He was surprised to hear the hon. member declare that he wished the petition to be received, with a view different from that of the hon. baronet, because it was a complaint which, when it had undergone investigation, would appear to be groundless. Investigation was all that was demanded; and he trusted it would be pursued further than a mere debate in that House. It was not the statement of one gentleman or of another—it was not what much oc-
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cur in conversation, or in debate, that could satisfy the justice of the case, which could only be met by that sort of investigation and inquiry which would bring the country to a real understanding of its merits.
The petition was brought up and read. On the motion that it should lie on the table,
Mr. B. Wilbrahamsaid, that having expressed his anxiety that the subject should be thoroughly investigated, in consequence of the various matters that had come to his knowledge with respect to it, he wished, in order to guard himself from the charge of inconsistency, to state, that now, having heard the petition read, he was of opinion that the allegations which it contained were not a fit subject for parliamentary inquiry.
Lord Miltonwas unequivocally of opinion, that if a portion of the people had suffered any grievance for which the House could afford a remedy, it was then-duty to investigate its nature.
Ordered to be printed.

COMMERCIAL DISTRESS—PETITION FROM BIRMINGHAM.
Mr. Dugdalerose to present a petition from the manufacturers and traders of Birmingham, stating the distress which prevailed in that town in consequence of the stagnation of trade. The petitioners observed, that the distress and inconvenience under which they laboured had existed for a considerable time, and would, they were afraid, go on increasing, unless some effectual remedy were found. They did not pretend to point out any remedy, but they seriously hoped that this House would institute a solemn inquiry into the causes of the prevailing distress. After what had occurred on a former evening he would not trouble the House with the details connected with this subject; but he believed that the account of the distress contained in the petition was not at all exaggerated. He had received statements from various* sources, all concurring in the magnitude of the distress which at present existed—a fact that was farther proved by the increase of the poor-rates in that quarter. There never was, he thought, a case that required more decidedly the interference Of parliament; and he trusted that, if any means could be devised for alleviating the sufferings of the people, that relief and that assistance would be rendered them as speedily as possible.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that the petition was very numerously signed, and he believed a more respectable body of men did not exist than those whose complaints were now before the House. They were not persons connected with any particular political party; amongst them were to be found some who took one side in politics—some who took another. They were indeed the most respectable, and the most worthy of the attention of that House, of any of the members of the community to which they belonged. He was exceedingly anxious to support the motion, that they should have a hearing. But he could not help stating his own feeling, as he had done before the last recess, that a compliance with the prayer of their petition was not likely to be attended with any beneficial result. Not that he had the smallest kind of doubt of the facts stated in the petition; not that he did not believe that the distress of which they complained was deeply and widely spread over that district (he wished he was not justified in adding, that it extended also over all the rest of the country; but because, from marking the course of such a proceeding, he had come to an opinion which was firmly rooted in his mind—that a parliamentary inquiry instituted in that House, with a view to revising, altering, and amending commercial or agricultural concerns, was by no means the best mode that could be adopted for attaining the desired object. He conceived that ministers themselves, by their means of information, by the remedies which they might recommend to parliament, and which, above all, they could support by their influence, were the persons who should devise measures of this description. They presented the only rational means of affording substantial relief; and he was sorry to be obliged to add, that the present administration, from the view which they appeared to have taken with respect to the agricultural and commercial interest, and, indeed, with reference to every thing they had done on those great questions of political economy, were not very likely to go into an inquiry of this kind in such a spirit as the exigency of the times demanded. He must also add, if they did proceed to this inquiry, that the country must feel, looking to all their acts, and to the degree of confidence which they enjoyed, that they were not precisely that sort of government, who could, with a reasonable prospect of suc-
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cess, undertake the alteration and revision of the system which prevailed. This sentiment he had formerly expressed, as many gentlemen present must recollect; and he would now state, that nothing had since occurred to shake or alter his opinion. He had then observed on the state of the administration; and in the sentiments he spoke he had no idea of giving one set of men, an advantage over another. He thought then, and he thought now, that no one party in, that House was at present sufficient to form an administration that could meet; the situation of the country, and give confidence to the people.
Mr. Spooner,knowing the distress which the industrious manufacturers of Birmingham laboured under claimed the attention of the House while be offered a few observations. He meant when he came into the House to enter into a detailed statement of the distresses which prevailed in the country; but having heard what was said by the hon. member for Chichester, and the House appearing to feel with him the inconvenience of partial debates on such important subjects, he had come to a determination not to pursue the course he originally intended, and to that determination he would have adhered if it had not been for the most extraordinary reason which the learned member had just given to induce the House not to proceed with an inquiry. The learned gentleman had stated, that there, was not any party in that House fit to form an administration. This point, lie begged to observe, never entered the minds of the petitioners when they represented their grievances to parliament, in the only constitutional way which was open to, them. He hoped, therefore, the House would agree with him, that the reason given by the learned member was not sufficient to, induce them to refuse the prayer, of the petition—namely, to enter into full, deliberate, and solemn inquiry, as to the distressed state of the town and neighbourhood of Birmingham. He was sorry to hear the learned member say, that an inquiry so instituted would be of no use. He should feel deeply grieved if the opinion of the country agreed with that of the learned gentleman. For his own part, he relied with confidence on the wisdom of that House, and so likewise did the petitioners. They looked to parliament for assistance in this emergency, and-he trusted they

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Would not be deceived in their hopes, He would now, with the leave of the House, state a few facts which lie had received from the neighbourhood of Birmingham, and which would point out the great extent to which the distresses of the manufacturers had gone. It would be recollected that the year 1816 was a year of peculiar distress. During the first four months of that year the sum paid for j the relief of the poor was 5,857 l., and the sum paid in the corresponding months of the present year was 10,843 l. He requested the House likewise to bear in mind the difference in the price of commodities in 1816, and at the present moment. They would then form something of an adequate idea of the increasing distress and misery to which the population of Birmingham and its neighbourhood had been reduced. There was another striking fact Which also tended to prove the extent of that distress. He alluded to the consumption of animal food in that district; and here he would press on the minds of those who were anxious to bring the interests of the agriculturists before the House that those interests, and the interests of the manufacturer, were intimately combined. In the first four months of the year 1818 the slaughter of animals for the supply of the town of Birmingham amounted to 5,147 beasts, including cows and oxen. In the corresponding four months of the present year the number of cattle slaughtered was 2,788. This circumstance, he hoped, would have its full weight on those who imagined that they could procure high prices for agricultural produce without giving to the manufacturer the means of purchasing it. The diminution in the slaughter of sheep bore the same proportion to that of cattle. In the first four months of 1818, the number of sheep slaughtered was 11,479, and in the corresponding four months of the present year it was reduced to 8,216. As to the causes of this distress, or the remedy which should be applied to it, he would say nothing. But he believed the House would find that the circumstances which injured the manufacturers operated; Equally in reducing the agricultural interest to that deep distress which was so universally felt. He begged to state one more fact, which was contained in a letter which he had received that morning; but, before he read it, he would observe that he did not mean to urge it as a motive to induce the House to enter into this in-
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quiry. When he introduced it to the House, he must accompany it with this remark, that he feared the unfortunate persons to whom the letter referred had taken the least likely way to interest the House in their cause. The letter stated that "the nailors about Haleys-owen, Stourbridge, &c. are riotting, and mobbing. They left their work on Monday last, and the colliers and iron-workers have joined them." He did not on account of this violence recommend the situation of these people to the notice of the House, who had certainly adopted the most improper course that could be pursued; but he did entreat gentlemen to consider what the consequence would be if they followed the advice of the learned member, and turned a deaf ear to those petitioners, who came before them in the only constitutional way, who requested their attention, and humbly called for that remedy which it was alone in the power of the House to grant.
Mr. Brougham,in explanation, said, he had a right to complain of two misrepresentations which the hon. gentleman had made of his speech. He had in two instances wholly mistaken him. The hon. gentleman had talked as if he had said, that no party in that House could form a ministry. He had not stated any such thing. What he had said was, that the exigencies of the state at this moment called for most important measures; and that no ordinary ministry could meet that task satisfactorily, which could alone be effected by a ministry so constituted as to conciliate the whole country. In the second place, he never had called on the House to turn a deaf ear to the petitioners; He had said the very reverse. He had called on the House to turn their ear to them, with the assistance of those Who possessed great influence, and who could carry such measures as they thought fit—he meant his majesty's government. Let the petition be brought up; let it be laid oh the table; and he hoped it would lead his majesty's ministers to institute an inquiry on the subject.
Mr. Spooner,in explanation, said, that he had merely alluded to the observations of the learned gentleman, with respect to the formation of an efficient administration, as a matter that had not at all entered the contemplation of the petitioners when they addressed the House.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CIVIL LIST BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Sir R. Heronsaid, he could not help expressing his gratitude to ministers for the forbearance they had manifested on tin's occasion. His majesty had in his speech from the throne, been graciously pleased to recommend economy. The distresses of the country loudly called for its adoption. The country was in such a situation, that it could with difficulty pay the interest of the national debt. And, under all these circumstances, what was the forbearance of ministers? Why, they simply contented themselves with fixing the civil list at the highest rate at which it had ever been—at a rate at which it stood when money was three times more plentiful than it was at this moment. They would have better consulted both the dignity of the Crown and the situation of the country, had they commenced a system of economy in that quarter where it could be enforced with so little comparative inconvenience. He feared that the ominous mention of the word "economy," in the royal speech, was only for the purpose of dispensing with it in practice. If this was so, ministers were responsible, and deserved the just indignation of the country [Hear!].
The bill was then read a second time. On the question that it be committed on Monday,
Mr. Humerose to enter his protest against the proceedings of ministers. He did not do so on the grounds which the hon. baronet had stated, because he was not prepared to say, that, if the expenditure of the household for the last five years were laid before parliament, the amount would appear to have been extravagant. If any thing could induce ministers to lay full information on the table of the House, before any money was voted, the statements made by an hon. gentleman on this side of the House, and by another hon. member on that side of the House, representing the difficulties and distress of the country, ought to have that effect. Yet ministers came forward and called upon the House to vote 850,000 l. without one tittle of information, from 1815 to that hour. In this conduct his majesty's ministers were inconsistent with themselves. They now refused what they had granted up to 1815. Why not lay accounts before the House up to 1820, as they had done up to 1815? It was said, indeed, there
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was not time to get the accounts printed. Yet what had they done? They had printed accounts of all the expenses of the civil list. He complained, then, because the household charges were not given distinct from the other charges of the civil list; he complained, because the hereditary revenues were not distinguished from the other revenues of the Crown. A committee of the House would simplify all those accounts and charges, and render them intelligible to that House and to the public. He supposed the amount for his majesty's household was 450,000 l., unless that which formed an important part in every gentleman's household in the country was left out. Every man's wife occasioned a part, and an important part, in the expenses of his household. The queen, then, he supposed, would have her expenses as part of the household. But by this mode of proceeding now, at the commencement of a reign, the civil list would continue throughout the reign (which he hoped would be a long one) perplexed and mystified. The right hon. gentleman had said, that ministers had a right to apply the surplus of one class of the civil list to make up the deficiency of any other class. Now, this right was inconsistent with three acts of parliament. One was Mr. Burke's, which prescribed a certain age for ambassadors. Another was by a right hon. gentleman on the floor, and enacted that no ambassador should have a salary exceeding 2,000 l., per annum, nor that salary till he was 35 years of age. If accounts of the ambassadors and their salaries were not laid before the House, how could the object of those acts be answered? But the 56th of Geo. 3rd, ch. 4, enacted, that the surplus of the third class should be carried into the consolidated fund. If, then, ministers had the right of applying the surplus of one class to the deficiency of another, or if full and regular accounts were not laid before that House, how could the House exercise the control which those acts required? It might be said, that ministers attended to the provisions of those acts; but was he clear that they really did attend to them? From the year 1756 every civil list act had been violated. His majesty's ministers had judged extremely ill in giving no account, at least of the third class. He could only express his regret that concealment was thus adopted and acted upon, instead of a candid and fair declaration of all the charges and items.

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The country would suspect from this, as he really was disposed to suspect, that there was some grounds for this concealment. Whether he could prove that there were grounds or not, millions in the country could not be persuaded that there were not grounds for concealment. There were many items which were not explained, though they ought to be explained. He would mention, for instance, that of plate given to several individuals. It might be right, but the House had no means of judging that it was so. The House knew not why services of plate should have been given to lord Jocelyn, the marquis of Winchester, lord Yarmouth, or Mr. Canning. He presumed it was for some good reasons. But why services of plate—no, pieces of plate—for 8,000 l. to Mr. Canning would only buy a piece of plate, he supposed—why those pieces of plate had been given was unknown to the House. He was one who deprecated, who dreaded secrecy and seclusion; and he would not cease to think that things were not all right, till a fair and manly avowal of all should be made to that House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the surplus of the third class had regularly been carried to the consolidated fund, and the accounts of the consolidated fund uniformly accounted for every such surplus. To that fund he referred the hon. gentleman for an account of this part of the civil list. A few days ago an order had been made for an account of all pensions, including the pensions to which the hon. gentleman had alluded. This account, would soon be laid before the House. Plate was usually given where official situations required greater display and splendor than the salary could afford. In general, presents of this kind were very moderate, and below the amount which the station of those to whom they were made might seem to require. Since the year 1816 services of plate had been given to all ambassadors to foreign courts, in order to enable them to support the dignity and splendor of representatives of the sovereign.
The bill was ordered to be committed on Monday.