Commons Sitting of 9 June 1820

BANKRUPT LAWS.
Mr. Finlaysaid, that as he saw an hon. gentleman in his place, who had paid great attention to the present system of Bankrupt Laws, he would take the opportunity of asking him whether he intended to bring forward again the alterations which he thought it advisable should be made in them.
Mr. J. Smithsaid, that it was his intention to persevere to a certain degree in the measures which he had proposed on a former occasion, and to bring forward either a bill or bills to correct the evils of the present system of the bankrupt laws. He was placed, however, in a situation which prevented him from bringing them forward at present. From a communication which he had received from the first legal authorities in the kingdom, he had learned that many of the evils to which he had called the attention of the House could be remedied by the authority of the lord-chancellor. He was likewise given to understand, that not only was that noble and learned personage willing to exercise that authority, but that he was even then engaged in drawing up the necessary orders to remedy them. He was well aware that the authority of that noble and learned personage could not remedy the whole of them; but he thought he should not be justified in bringing any specific plan before the House until he saw the orders of the noble lord, and the manner in which they met or avoided the present evils.

MOTION FOR A SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE PAPERS RELATING TO THE CONDUCT OF THE QUEEN.
Lord Castlereaghrose for the purpose of moving that the order of the day for "referring the papers presented on Wednesday last to the House to a secret committee, to consider the matter thereof, and to report the same, with their observations thereupon, to the House," should be then read, in order to its being further adjourned till Monday next [Cries of Hear!]. In making that proposition to the House, he thought it right to state, that he made it in consequence of a proposition which had been received at a late hour that day

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by the earl of Liverpool. As it had been: received at so late an hour as to prevent an answer from being given to it previous to his coming down to the House, he trusted that the House would see the necessity of not calling upon him to communicate to them the nature of it. There had been no impression made upon his mind by the communication to which he alluded that led him to alter the caution which he had formerly given the House on this subject; that caution was, that they should not allow their minds to be biassed by the negotiations which were taking place, but should consider matters to stand in the same relative situation that they did before [Hear, hear!].
Mr. Broughamconcurred with the noble lord in the import which he had given to his present motion. It was with a view to have matters kept for Monday in the same state as they were at present, or rather as they were on the last night of adjournment. To be explicit, he wished members to act as if every thing was in that state. He wished to add a few words regarding the delay which the noble lord seemed to insinuate to have taken place on his part. The noble lord had said, that certain propositions had not been received till so late an hour in the day that it was impossible to answer them before the meeting of the House. He would inform the noble lord of the reasons of that circumstance. The party from whom those propositions came thought it most important not to begin a negotiation, lest in beginning it she should appear to be making improper concessions, especially also as the other party, who did not commence any negotiation, stood in a situation not to be injured by making concessions. The strong and earnest remonstrances of her legal advisers had, however at a late hour in the day, overcome the reluctance which the illustrious individual in question felt to being the first to negociate [Hear!]; and he therefore trusted that the noble lord would feel convinced that there was no intention either on his part or on the part of his hon. and learned colleague, to take ministers by surprise in sending to the noble earl at a late hour in the day the communication which they had sent him [Hear, hear!].
Lord Castlereaghdisclaimed any intention of imputing improper delay to the hon. and learned gentleman or his client. He had merely mentioned the lateness of the hour at which the proposition had
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been received as a reason for the postponement of the present question. As that proposal was still under consideration, he did not think it necessary to explain the reasons why some proposal had not originated from another quarter.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that in the delicate situation in which both the noble lord and himself were placed, a superfluous was better than an imperfect explanation.
Mr. Wynnobserved, that one of the great advantages arising from the step which the House had taken on the night of the adjournment was this—that no one could suppose that the renewal of the negotiation, come from whichever party it might, was the result of any other feeling than a deference to the wishes of the House of Commons, re-echoed back to it as those wishes had been by every individual from one end of the country to the other [Cheers].
The order for taking the papers into consideration was then further adjourned till Monday.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The navy estimates having, on the motion of sir George Warrender, been referred to a committee of supply, it was moved by him, "That a sum not exceeding 1,980,566 l. 3s. 11 d. be granted to his majesty, for further defraying the ordinary establishment of the navy, for the year 1820." The hon. baronet observed, that it was a satisfaction to him to be able to inform the House, that there was a diminution of the expenditure of 114,000 l.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he had no objection to the grant, and admitted that a reduction to the amount of 114,000 l. had taken place within the last year. The lords of the Admiralty, and the commissioners for the victualling department, were still as numerous as in the year 1815. He thought that some further reduction could be effected. There was another subject to which he hoped that an answer would be given, relative to the clerks, who having been engaged in men of war, had not been raised to the rank of pursers, and were not, therefore, entitled to half-pay.
Sir G. Cockburnexplained the causes of the clerks not being raised to the rank of pursers. The number of them was considerable; and if the system of raising their rank was to continue, no end could be put to the number of persons who would require half-pay.
Sir Joseph Yorkeobserved, that nothing was more flat, stale, and unprofitable, than the generality of discussions in that House upon the expenditure of the public money, and especially with respect to the naval estimates of late years. His hon. friend who had just sat down, had stated that there was a reduction of 100,000 l. in the estimates of this year; but the reduction ought to have been, in his view, much more material, considering that we were now in the sixth year of peace. He animadverted upon what he called the lumping sum of 3,000 l. allowed for fire, lamps, and postage for the Admiralty, which he thought much more than was necessary. This, indeed, was an item of the naval estimates which he had never been able to understand. Then there was the allowance for superannuations to persons who were healthy and strong, and who were likely long to live, but which they were to enjoy until, according to the modern language, they ceased to exist." Where were the means of defraying such expense to be found, as money was so scarce? The noble lord (Castlereagh) might make one of his consolatory speeches, and tell the House that a considerable saving would in time be made on this head, by what, in the modern language, was termed the "ceasing to exist"; oat, notwithstanding this "ceasing to exist," they still found this item of expenditure increasing. But, whatever ceased to exist, the expenditure did not: on the contrary, it appeared to be "the never-dying worm" of this county. How it was to be continued he did not know; and, unless the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had laid up treasures for them in heaven, they would be without any, for he was sure they would have none upon earth [A laugh]. With all those burthens, the first cannon shot that was fired would, in his opinion, reduce the 3 per cents as low as 30; and that would be eaten up by superannuations. How these could be provided for he did not know, unless the chancellor of the exchequer had some private resources; and perhaps he had; but with all the difficulties under which we laboured, we found that situations were doubled, trebled, and quadrupled, in all directions. We had two or three lord chancellors walking about, and commissioners of the navy, commissioners in the Victualling-office, and many others of that sort in abundance; all of whom were very
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comfortably provided for, and might live a thousand years. What a saving might be made in such things. But none such was meditated, while expense was going on to beautify and adorn the great house at the Admiralty. Again he asked, amidst such public distress and public expense, what was to become of the country in the event of war? He did not mean to say that war was now probable with our great and old rival, as both governments appeared to be on pretty good terms. Neither, indeed, seemed inclined to war; perhaps, because no money was to be found in the exchequer of either.—After objecting to some late arrangements with respect to our dock-yard in Nova Scotia, the hon. member animadverted upon the expense incurred for constructing a wharf near Gibraltar. The order for building this wharf was originally made by that gallant admiral, earl St. Vincent, in 1802, and an expense of 4,000 l. a year had since been saddled upon the country, making in all 72,000 l. which had been spent to build a wharf that had not yet made its appearance above water. It reminded him of the child which was growing eleven inches every year, and yet had never come to its full growth. This intended wharf had sums expended on it year after year, and its head could not yet be perceived above the water. It seemed to him that instead of the money going for the wharf, it had been applied to uses not so good. Having now made an opposition speech, he would say something on the other side. He was glad to see the hon. baronet (sir G. Cockburn) looking into the business of the navy, as a great deal of good was to be expected from his capacity, industry, and knowledge of the subject. He also expected much advantage from the superintendence of his hon. friend the comptroller of the navy, who was so well worthy of his place, and who would not, he was sure, allow any ex-pence that could be avoided. But parsimony might sometimes be as unjust and more injurious than expense. For instance, he had been lately at Sheerness, when a tremendous order came down from the Admiralty for the discharge from the yard of 200 navigators; that is, fellows who worked with spades and wheelbarrows, and that convicts should be employed in their place. Thus were suddenly thrown out of bread no less than 200 honest men, who had no means of subsistence unless they contrived, if possible,

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to become convicts themselves. He had, indeed, heard of strange questions put by these poor men at Sheerness; for instance, whether, if they applied to the noble secretary for the home department, he would make them convicts, or give them the employment and subsistence which convicts enjoyed? He might as well apply to his right hon. friend on the floor to make him a maid of honour [A laugh]. The question, however, of these poor men, was not extraordinary; for the fact was, that rogues and felons were of late much better provided for in this country than honest industrious men; for what a bustle had we about the building and improvement of gaols and the construction of penitentiaries; yet we had 1,500 convicts employed on our coast, who would "rader go to Bottom-house Bay, in de Vest Indis." Yet those convicts were taken such peculiar care of, that if, upon being taken out to work, a cloud appeared, one of Mr. Capper's men immediately exclaimed, "Bring them back, it is likely to rain." Here the hon. member happened, by a movement of his arm, to strike of the hat of a member near him, to whom he apologized, stating that a man was never attended to upon subjects of this nature unless he spoke with vehemence [A laugh]
Sir T. B. Martindefended the superannuation allowances alluded to by his hon. friend, and as to the convicts, he stated, that when these people were idle and unemployed, scenes of tumult and vice perpetually prevailed among them, while, through employment, they were rendered industrious and regular. An allowance of 3d. per day was granted to each of those convicts, in remuneration for his labour, one half of which was reserved and allowed to accumulate until his final discharge, in order to furnish him with the means of defraying his expenses home, and thus to provide some guard against the temptation to repeat the commission of crime.
Mr. Humeobserved, that, from the statement of the estimates which he held in his hand, he could not see that the saving in the estimates this year was so large as was stated. He was at a loss to know how such a saving as had been mentioned could be shown. There was a reduction in the total amount of salaries, but this was overbalanced by the excess in the half-pay and superannuations. In the very large items for build-
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ings and repairs, he could see no saving that deserved mention. It was in 1819, 1,145,430 l.; and in 1820, the sum was 1,142,580 l. He now wished to call the attention of the committee to the Navy Pay office. He found that the expense in this department was very nearly the same, now that we had only a sum of six millions to pay, as when the payment amounted to two and twenty millions. He did expect that some very considerable reductions would have been made in this department, after the reports of the finance committee respecting it. There were, indeed, some few clerks with trifling salaries reduced, but none of the higher offices were touched. The same objection would apply to the Navy-office. The House had received two reports on the subject of the navy estimates, in one of which a recommendation was given for the reduction of the number of commissioners, but no such reduction had taken place. One deputy-comptroller was reduced, but the allowance for house-rent granted to three commissioners was equal to the salary of the comptroller. He put it to the House whether the same expense in this office was necessary at a time when there were only 15,000 seamen and 8,000 marines kept up, as had been incurred at a time when our naval force required 145,000 men; and yet with this immense difference, the amount of expense at present in the Navy-office was very little less than what it was at the period to which he had alluded. In the victualling office there was the same ground of complaint. The expense of conducting that department was this year 97,287 l.—a sum not much less than that which was required when we had 1,000 ships in commission. How could the continuance of this enormous expense be accounted for at this period of peace? In the dock-yards also the committee would find that a proportionably extravagant scale of expense was continued. Reductions had been recommended, but none had taken place. Making a comparison of the years since the peace, it would be found that in the sixth year of peace, when every thing was said to be reduced to the lowest peace scale, only a very paltry reduction had taken place. It was now nine months since he had moved for a return of the number of ships employed in the years 1792, 1793, and 1794, and also in the years 1817, 1818, and 1819; but that account had been laid on the

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table only a few days back. On looking over it, he was surprised at the extraordinary increase which had taken place in building and repairing. From the 5th report of the finance committee, it appeared, that the whole number of ships in the navies of Europe and America amounted only to 169—but the number kept up in this country was 594, of which there were this year 38 not included in the fifth rates. Of this number, there were not more than 112 at sea at a time. With this number, however, the proportion of expense in building and repairs was much greater than at any former period. On looking over the returns to which he had alluded, it would be found, that he was not so very much out in the calculation he made on a former occasion, when speaking on this subject, and when his information was derived from the Journals. In the year 1791 the expense of building and repairs amounted to 440,000 l. In 1792 the sum was 381,920 l.; and in 1798, including some improvements which were then made, it amounted to 387,000 l. Let those sums be compared with the expenses in the same department for the last three or four years, and a mighty increase would be found, though we were now in the sixth year of peace, when we had no shattered vessels to repair, as we should have in time of war. With a number of ships less than we employed in 1801, our expense for building and repairs were—in 1817, 1,139,270 l.; in 1818, 1,230,990 l.; in 1819, 1,145,430 l.; and in 1820,1,142;580 l. This enormous increase, though not condemned by the committee of finance, was very well commented upon in their eighth report. The report said—"They" (the committee) "conceive, that the amount and preparation of ships of war must be left to the sound discretion of the government generally, and of the board whose duty it is more particularly to manage this most important department of the state; always bearing in mind, that not ships and stores, and military arrangements, are alone necessary for the safety or the glory of the country in the event of war; but that finances recruited during peace, and wealth and industry generally diffused through the nation by all practicable savings of expense and consequent diminution of burthens, are at least of equal importance, while they mainly contribute towards the happiness and comfort of all classes of society at the present time." He had, as far as it had lain in
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his power, consulted persons conversant with naval affairs, and he found such persons generally of opinion that very large sums, expended by government, had been and were absolutely thrown away. An hon. baronet, whom he then saw in his place, had stated to the House—at least so he had understood the hon. baronet-that the longer ships remained in ordinary, the better they became; that a ship three years in ordinary was better than a new ship; and that a ship ten years in ordinary would be still more valuable. He really could not coincide in that opinion. It was not his wish to reduce too hastily the force of our navy; he only wished to reduce it to that point which would leave us in possession of twice as many ships of war as could be sent forth by the united efforts of the whole world. He felt confident that whenever the time should come (and he trusted that time was far distant) which should involve us again in war, the sums which we might save in this item of public charge would be far more service able in maintaining a contest than the result of those sums expended in the manner in which it was now proposed to expend them. No man could say that 590 ships could be kept up at any thing like a reasonable expense. From the very perishable nature of the wood of which those vessels were composed, the thing was impossible. If the present system were persevered in, the country would find too late, when she came to a contest, that she wanted that money which at this moment she was wasting. An expense of 451,000 l was proposed for alterations and improvements in the yards in this very year. We could scarcely do more if we anticipated a war at the beginning of the next. The hon. member concluded with a declaration that he did not seek to shake off, or throw out of employment, the poor and meritorious individuals whose earnings were paid out of the estimates in question; he aimed at reductions less distressing to the individual, and more serviceable to the public.
Sir T. B. Martinsaid, that since the peace, 374 ships of war had been sold, and 178 broken up—a reduction almost equal to the number now remaining. He thought that ministers were open to a charge directly contrary to that which had been urged by the hon. member, and that they had been too hasty in diminishing the strength of our navy. We had now a formidable fleet ready to go to sea at a

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moment's notice; but those vessels would, from time to time, require repair. There were perhaps some of them that would be fit for service only for three or four years to come; and it was surely better to keep up those vessels as long as they would last than to find ourselves, at the commencement of a war, destitute of a navy to protect our commerce and our colonies. Subsequent to the American war, from the year 1783 to the year 1790, the workmen in the yards were employed three hours a day extra in summer, and an hour and a half in winter, in repairing ships, and putting them again into a condition for service; and, in the course of those seven years, they put out of hand 75 sail of the line, and 78 frigates. The hon. member opposite had spoken of increased expenses. Was it strange that the expense of repairs should be doubled since the period stated, when the price of timber, and of every description of shipbuilding materials, was trebled? The hon. member then stated, that no fewer than 68 clerks had been discharged from the Navy-office; and an equal number from the Navy pay-office.
Sir F. Ommannysaid, that such was the reduced state of the navy that he believed no naval officer in that House could go on board a common guard-ship and find men enough on board to man a boat in an officer-like manner. He thought the lords of the Admiralty had not discharged the duty which they owed to the country, in reducing the navy so low as they had done; and said, he was not one of those who believed that the continent was in such a state of security as to justify the dismantling of our army and navy.
Sir Isaac Coffinsaid, that as an hon. and gallant officer had, for once, made an opposition speech, he would make a mi-material speech, and declare, that he thought his majesty's ministers had neglected nothing which could contribute to the happiness and security of the navy.
Mr. Tierneyhoped that the opposition speech which had been made on the other side the House would produce more effect than those which proceeded from the quarter in which he was standing; and he further hoped that the hon. member who made the opposition speech would follow up that measure by giving an opposition vote. If there were some branches of the naval service in which expenditure had been too profuse, there
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were others, he thought, in which an undue parsimony had been exercised. A petition had some time since been put into his hands, which could not be read by any man without the deepest feelings of compassion and regret. The petition of which he spoke proceeded from two ladies of respectable family, one of whose ancestors had not long since filled the office of sheriff in the county of Cornwall, and who, by the loss of nearly all their relatives in the military and naval services, were literally so beggared as to be in the high road to a workhouse. These women were the daughters of a gentleman of small fortune, who had devoted his limited means to the education of seven sons, in the hope of their success in the service of their country. Six of these sons had entered the navy, one had gone into the army, and all had lost their lives in the performance of their duty. Worn down by disappointment, the father died of a broken heart; and, after his decease, the only surviving son, who was then an officer of artillery, aided his sisters to the utmost extent of his means; and they endeavoured to eke out a scanty subsistence by keeping a day-school. This young man, however, died at Gibraltar; one of the sisters became ill; they were obliged to give up their little school, and were absolutely left to starve. Under these circumstances the unhappy females had applied to the duke of York, reciting the facts which had been detailed to the House, and asking a pension as the sisters of an officer who had died in the army, stating the names of their brothers, and the services upon which they had been employed. No one who knew any thing of the character of his royal highness could doubt the feeling with which that petition had been received; but it was intimated to the ladies that, under all the circumstances, their application would more properly be addressed to the Admiralty. They did so, and no fault could be imputed to lord Melville for answering, that there was no fund at the control of the Admiralty out of which the petitioners could be relieved; but he would ask the House, if it was honourable or decent that lord Melville should have been compelled to give such an answer? It was not, Mr. Tierney continued, until these ladies had for some time suffered the extremity of penury that their petition had been placed in his hands. He had made the strictest inquiry into their characters, and

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had received the most ample testimony to their conduct. He had then, previous to presenting the petition, stated the case to an hon. member opposite, and to the chancellor of the exchequer; and he was bound to acknowledge the kind reception which he had experienced, the chancellor of the exchequer having undertaken immediately that the unfortunate ladies should receive a pension from the civil list. It was no longer necessary that the petition in question should be laid before the House; but he should not discharge his duty to the navy, which he ever wished to see the favourite service of the country, if he did not endeavour to establish some provision for similar exigencies. In the army there had been at one time a fund for the aid of sisters, but that was now taken away, and the services both stood in the same situation. He had no connexion with the ladies for whom he had fortunately obtained relief; but he wished that some measures should be taken in favour of similar sufferers. Not that he would lay down a general rule, that the sisters of officers should be entitled to pensions; that would throw too heavy a load upon the public; all he wished was, that a fund should be placed at the disposal of the army and navy boards, to be resorted to only in those cases where a sister had no reliance but upon the protection of her brother; because such a woman stood exactly, in the same situation to her brother as a daughter who depended for maintenance upon her father. The want of such a fund was a disgrace to the service and to the country. Doubtless there were many cases in which a father brought up his son to the army or navy, trusting to the success of his son for the safety of his daughter. In such cases, a daughter acquired a most direct and unqualified claim. He would make no motion to the House upon the subject; but, if ministers should be accused of profusion for applying a fund to the purpose which he had mentioned, he, for one, would most cordially lend his aid to their defence.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the statement just made by the right hon. gentleman could not but interest the feelings of the House. He could not agree, however, with the right lion, gentleman as to the expediency of extending the limits which it had been deemed expedient to apply to the granting of pensions. Pensions had increased to so great
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an extent that it was thought proper to confine them to the wives and immediate descendants of the gallant officers who had fallen in the service of their country. No doubt such cases would arise as that to which the right hon. gentleman had alluded; and, when they did arise, he trusted that they would always, as in the instance in question, be considered to afford fit opportunities for the bounty of the Crown. Still he did not think it advisable to open a door to applications of that description. The army and navy were upon an equal footing; each had their compassionate fund. Certainly, the compassionate fund could not afford relief to that extent which might be necessary in some cases, and particularly in such an instance as that which had been cited by the right hon. gentleman; the assistance of the Crown, however, would not be wanting, where such assistance was merited. As the right hon. gentleman, however, had made no motion on the subject, all he thought it necessary to say was, that the attention of government would be directed to it before another session of parliament.
Sir M. Ridleymoved an amendment, that the grant should be reduced 2,000 l,the amount of the salary of the two junior lords of the Admiralty, which was rejected.—The resolutions was then agreed to Sir. G. Warrender next moved, "That 1,594,480 l. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the charge of what may be necessary for the Building, re-building, and Repairs of Ships of War, in his Majesty's and the Merchants' Yards, and, other extra works, over and above what is proposed to be done upon the heads of Wear and Tear and Ordinary, for the year 1820."
Mr. Humeasked if it was proper that a transport board should be kept up at Portsmouth, at the expense of 477 l.; while there was another at Cowes, nearly opposite, which cost 368 l.? These were parts of the expense of that department, both of which, or at least one of which, he thought might be spared. He had another observation to make. Under the head of "stationery" in the Admiralty Office, he found a charge of 2,000 l; but the charge under the same head in the Navy Office amounted to 6,900 l.; and he had been told that this great difference arose from the continuance of an old and irregular practice of charging under the same head various articles of

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totally a different description. For this, however, he had no certain authority, and therefore he should be happy to hear if it was the practice in the Navy office to charge any other articles than paper, pens, and ink, under the head of stationery.
Sir G. Warrender,in reply to the first of the lion, gentleman's observations, observed, that Portsmouth and Cowes were necessary transport stations, as the embarkation of troops for foreign service generally took place at one of these ports, With respect to the remarks on the; charge for stationery, the excess under that head in the Victualling and Navy offices over the expense in the Admiralty office was occasioned by the greater number of ships' books, and other articles of the same description, which were required in the former. As far as he knew, however, no articles but such as were generally called stationery, were classed under that head.
Sir F. Ommaneysaid, that if the hon. gentleman was acquainted with nautical matters, he would readily perceive that the necessity of having transport stations both at Portsmouth and at Cowes arose from the obvious circumstance, that the direction of the wind might be more favourable to embarkation at the one place than at the other.
The resolution was agreed to. Upon the resolutions, that the sum of 389,500 l. be voted for the provision of troops on foreign service, and 245,924 l. for the transport service of his majesty's navy,
Sir Joseph Yorketook that opportunity of asking the chancellor of the exchequer, if sir Robert Seppings had yet received the pension which parliament had recommended last year—he meant, had sir Robert actually touched the cash? He needed not remind the committee that Mr. Harrison, who had been one of the secretaries to the Treasury, had stood precisely in the same situation as sir R. Seppings, and had received a sum of 5,000 l. over and above his pay as a secretary.
Sir T. B. Martinbore testimony to the valuable saving of sir Robert Seppings. His services were beyond all pecuniary reward; and the benefit which the country had derived from those services, was incalculably greater than any sum which could be voted for them. He thought the pension had been too long delayed.
Sir E. Harveysaid, that no officer in the civil department had ever done so much for the navy as sir R. Seppings.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that, upon its being considered that some further remuneration was due to this gentleman for the benefit which the navy had derived from his invention, a communication to that effect had been made to the Treasury by the first lord of the Admiralty. In consequence of that communication, it had been arranged that some provision should be made, by which his family would be benefitted, and he believed that this arrangement had since been carried into effect.
The resolution was then agreed to.

LOAN—WAYS AND MEANS
The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that he should not have occasion to trespass long on the attention of the committee, it having been generally understood, in consequence of a former arrangement, that he should defer any specific explanation of the finances of the present year until Friday next, when, on submitting to the House certain resolutions respecting the sinking fund and the loan, the supply, and the Ways and Means he would enter fully into the subject. All he had now to-do was, to state the terms of the loan that had been contracted for on the present day. In recommending its confirmation to parliament, he must observe that it was one of the most advantageous bargains ever concluded between the Treasury and the contractors. The price of stocks had this day coincided precisely with what it was when the loan was contracted for last year; and though last year there was an extraordinary degree of competition, the competition was still greater on the present occasion. The contract, in this instance, was a half per cent more favourable to the public than it was in the former year, although the price of the funds was in each case the same. The 3 per cent reduced annuities were now, as they were last year, at 69. The last price, before that stock was shut, was 70½ from which if they deducted the July dividend of 1½ per cent, it reduced it to 69, which was the present price—the same price even to a fraction, which the 3 per cent annuities bore last year. The contract for the loan of last year amounted to

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18 s. per cent: in the present year, the contract was concluded at 142 l. 4s. per cent being 14 s. in stock, or 10 s. in money, more favourable than the preceding contract. Considering it by the ordinary calculation of the price of stock, the contractors had taken the loan at nearly 2 per cent above the current price of stock, which was highly beneficial to the public. At the same time that the bargain was so favourable to the public, he thought it was one that would produce a fair profit to the contractor. Looking to the small amount of the loan, the bargain was almost as favourable a one as had ever been concluded by the Treasury. Under these circumstances, he considered it unnecessary for him to take up the time of the House and should therefore move, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that, towards the supply to be granted to his majesty, the sum of 5,000,000 l. be raised by annuities."
Mr. Grenfellexpressed his approbation of the loan, which was undoubtedly very Favourable to the public. It was always an evidence of a beneficial contract when the premium was moderate. The right hon. gentleman was however mistaken when he said, that this was the most favourable loan that had ever been concluded. Other loans had been more favourable, with reference to the existing prices of the funds when they were contracted for.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not mean to refer to the present loan as the most favourable that had ever been concluded; but undoubtedly he considered it to be one of the most favourable. He had no recollection of a higher relative price of the funds except in one former year.
Mr. Ricardoobserved, that the present loan was made on very satisfactory terms. It was impossible, he thought, that it could be obtained at a more favour-ablerate. He however traced those favourable terms to the recommendation of an bon. friend (Mr. Grenfell) who, some years ago, had advised that the commissioners of the national debt should be allowed to subscribe for the loan to the amount of the balances in their hands. This advice was followed on the present occasion; but if the old course had been adopted, and the loan had been for 17,000,000 l., the result would have been very different. Another cause which tended to procure terms so favour-
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able was the smallness of the loan. It was within the power of a great number of persons to bid for a loan of 5,000,000 l. and therefore the competition for the present loan was much more extensive than usual, and far greater than if it had been for 17,000,000 l. In consequence of these circumstances, the right hon. gentleman had certainly obtained such terms as must be highly satisfactory to the country. He conceived that no fairer mode could be devised in forming contracts for the public than by open competition. That system, he hoped, would be generally acted on. An hon. gentleman had, been a former night, asked some questions relative to a large amount of exchequer bills, which had been issued by government at par, when they were at a discount in the market. From the explanation of the right hon. gentleman it seemed that they were given in consequence of a contract for a quantity of silver. Now, it was quite evident that the 7s. or 8s. received by government from the persons with whom the contract was made would be reimbursed by a profit in the price of the silver; they would undoubtedly raise the price to the amount which they were likely to lose. He thought, in this instance too, that the system of competition should have been acted on, and that they should have been purchased in that way. He wished for some explanation with respect to the quantity of exchequer bills relative to which information had been demanded a few evenings ago. A statement had then been made, which his hon. friend, and other gentlemen, declared they did not understand. It appeared to him to be a very mysterious transaction, and he could not make it out. It seemed that a provision had been made for appropriating the growing amount of the consolidated fund. His hon. friend had noticed this, and had observed that the growing amount might be made productive and useful to the public. In consequence of his representation a bill had been brought in some time ago, to enable the public to make use of its growing amount, by which it was provided, however, that they should not borrow more than 6,000,000 l. from it. But it so happened that this growing consolidated fund was not equal to the discharge of the advances that had been made on it in the preceding quarter. He would thus explain himself;—Sup-

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posing this was the beginning of the quarter, that the public accounts were made up, and that there was a deficiency of 3,000,000 l; the Bank, in the first instance, made this good; and out of the amount of the consolidated fund in the commencing quarter the Bank was repaid those 3,000,000 l. Supposing, over and above this sum of 3,000,000 l., an equal sum accrued, the public, under the act, would., he understood, have the advantage of those 3,000,000 l., since, by its provisions, a sum of 6,000,000 l. might be borrowed for the public service. This was the system; but how, he asked, was it possible that the public could have the advantage of any part of this growing fund, when in fact it was in debt? It was exceedingly difficult for him to comprehend this. In April, 1819, there was a sum of 2,027,000 l. so issued for the use of the public; and it was stated that from that period to April 1820, the public had the benefit of that money. But how could they have the use or benefit of it out of a growing consolidated fund, on which there was no surplus whatever, but which, on the contrary, was in debt, and that debt amounting to more than the 6,000,000 l. which "they were by the act of parliament empowered to borrow? As he could not understand this, he would be obliged to the right hon. gentleman to inform the House whether the public had really derived advantage from this 2,027,000 l. from April, 1819, to April, 1820.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that, in the first place, he entirely con curred with the hon. member in applying the principle of competition to all con tracts for the public, wherever it could be safely introduced. There might, how ever, be cases where it would not be practicable to adopt the system. As a general principle it was a good one, and in a variety of instances it was adopted by government. With respect to the hon. member's remark relative to the advances made from the consolidated fund to the public service, the hon. member would understand the matter better by a reference to the 59th of Geo. 3rd, cap. 93, than from any explanation which he could give. He would, however, briefly answer the hon. member's observation. It had been a frequent complaint of different Members, in that House, that a great pro fit was made by the Bank, by holding in
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their hands the growing produce of the consolidated fund, without any corresponding advantage being derived by the public; and various plans had been devised to enable the public to make use of their own money during each current quarter. In 1808, an arrangement was in consequence entered into between the then chancellor of the exchequer, Mr. Perceval, and the Bank, for the advance of 3,000,000 l. without interest, in consideration of the advantages which they derived from those balances. This arrangement, after subsisting for some years (for it was stipulated that it should remain in force till a certain number of years after the war), expired last year, "it was then thought advisable that the growing produce of the consolidated fund should be applied in a different manner—a statement being made by the Bank, that the public money rying in their hands was so small in amount, as not to warrant them to continue the advance of 3,000,000 l. without interest. In lieu, therefore, of the former arrangement, by which the public had the use of 3,000,000 l. without interest, a bill was introduced to enable the Treasury to borrow from the consolidated fund to the extent of 6,000,000 l., the use of which the public were to have without interest. This was to be paid in any particular quarter, and to be renewed at the commencement of the next quarter; so that, instead of its being a permanent, it was a running advance. To prevent the disadvantage of anticipating too large a sum before the quarter, it was provided that the advances made by the Bank under this act, together with other advances to cover any deficiencies, should not exceed 6,000,000 l.; and as the advance made by the Bank amounted to 3,400,000 l., that sum, and 2,600,000 l., making a gross amount of 6,000,000 l., remained from that time to the present available to the public. From that period to the present time, the public had had the benefit of 2,600,000 l. in exchequer bills, from which they derived very considerable advantage.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, the right hon. gentleman would, he was sure, recollect that, in the commencement of the session in February, 1819, a question arose during the. discussion, relative to the Bank balances, whether the sum of 18,000,000 l. should not be applied to the public service. In consequence of that inquiry the 59th of the late king was introduced,

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But he had never yet been able to understand how a sum of 6,000,000 l., or of 2,600,000 l., had been, in point of fact and practice, made available, so as to save the public interest on that amount of money, he understood from the right hon. gentleman that 2,600,000 l. were taken from the growing produce of the consolidated fund, for the service of the public; but it now appeared, that exchequer-bills to that amount, and bearing no interest, were tying in the teller's chest in lieu of this available sum. But how did it happen that this amount of exchequer-bills remained stationary? The consolidated fund must vary every quarter: it might be 6, or 7, or 8 millions; but still this sum of 2,600,000 l. continued stationary. He had read attentively the act to which the right hon. gentleman alluded, and he thought the practice there recognized advantageous to the public; but he must repeat that he was wholly at a loss to know how the right hon. gentleman could make out his statement that the public were deriving advantage from the use of 2,600,000 l., drawn from a fund which was so deeply in debt. With respect to the balances in the hands of the Bank, he had within the last three or four years repeatedly called the attention of the House to them. The system had been altered; but he was one of those who thought that, at a time like the present, some farther benefit might be derived from them by the public, with perfect fairness to the Bank of England.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the 2,600,000 l. taken out of the consolidated fund were replaced by exchequer-bills without interest.
Mr. J. Martinsaid, that at several different quarters there were seven or eight millions due on the consolidated fund; and yet the right hon. gentleman stated that he borrowed from it. By the act of parliament he could not borrow unless there was a surplus, and therefore he conceived that the statute had been violated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that any violation of the act had taken place.
Mr. Humesaid, that the authority to borrow 6,000,000 l. from the consolidated fund would be very well, as long as there was any surplus of that fund; but on the 12th of April it appeared that it was 6,800,000 l. in debt; consequently, out of that fund none of the sums stated could possibly be taken.
Mr. Grenfellsaid, it would be a most desirable thing if some means were devised to get rid of this deficiency of the consolidated fund. One objection to its continuance was, that it rendered the accounts so extremely complex, that he doubted much whether the right hon. gentleman himself understood them. He did not say this with any intention to offend the right hon. gentleman; but he did most positively know that many persons in official situations in the exchequer declared that they could not master them. When such men as his hon. friends, who had spoken in the course of this discussion, and who were in the habit of inspecting figures and accounts, stated that these accounts were unintelligible to them, something ought to be done to simplify them. The deficiency of the consolidated fund was a blot on the statement of their annual finance. It was clear that there was a deficit of from six to eight millions: he knew that that deficiency was provided for quarterly by the Bank; but it should be recollected that they paid the Bank interest for it. If they even paid a little more interest than they did to the Bank, in order to procure money to cover it completely, it would be advantageous to the public, since it would simplify the system. But if they did not raise the money by loan, and chose rather to issue exchequer-bills, still they would not be paying a greater interest than they now paid to the Bank. He was not sanguine enough to contemplate the period, within any moderate lapse of time, when the increase of the resources of this country would enable them to get rid of this deficiency. If the right hon. gentleman could state that in two or three years such an improvement was likely to take place as would be adequate to the expenditure, and also get rid of the deficiency of seven or eight millions, he would not be averse to giving him the full time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there was one point which might account for the hon. gentleman's observations, which was, that he did not really understand the mode in which the sum of 2,600,000 l. was borrowed from the consolidated fund. A great many gentlemen of knowledge and sagacity were often puzzled by a simple statement: their own knowledge and sagacity, which led them to unnecessary refinements, operated to defeat the object they had in view. He agreed with the hon. gentleman that it

1029
was desirable there should not be a deficiency on the consolidated fund; and he trusted, at no distant time, that such an arrangement would be made, with the assistance of parliament, as would effectually meet the evil. This, however, could not be done in the present year. The hon. gentleman stated the deficiency to be 7,000,000 l. or 8,000,000 l.: in this, however, he included the 2,600,000 l. that were borrowed; so that in fact the actual deficiency was only 5,000,000 l. He entertained hopes that it would be made good in the course of the next year. If in the next session he found that those hopes were not likely to be realized, he would submit a proposition to parliament relative to a part of it.
Mr. Ricardoobserved, that on the 5th of July, 1819, there was a deficiency of 8,400,000 l. But," said the right hon. gentleman, "you have, without interest, 2,600,000 l., for which exchequer-bills have been deposited." This he denied; and he would contend that the public had not the advantage of that sum.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if that sum had not been advanced from the consolidated fund, the difference would be, that the Bank would have 2,600,000 l. of the public money in their hands, during the quarter, which would be employed by them for their own benefit, and not, as now, for the benefit of the public.
The resolution was then agreed to; as were also the resolutions, granting to the contractor, for every 100 l. money, 100 l. 3 per cent reduced, and 42 l. 4s. consols. On the resolution being put, relative to the discount to be allowed on an anticipation of the period of payment,
Mr. Grenfellrose, and, adverting to the 12,000,000 l. which it was proposed to take from the sinking fund, demanded whether it would not be better to do away that part of the machinery of the system altogether. The fact was, they borrowed 12,000,000 l. from the commissioners of the national debt; but they must, in the first instance, advance those 12,000,000 l., to enable them to lend it. Now, of. what consequence was it to the public whether they granted that sum to the commissioners, to be lent back to them, or retained it themselves, in the first instance? The system was completely absurd, and differed from every thing that was contemplated in 1783, when the fund was established. At present it was entirely
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nominal and delusive, and had no other effect but to render the finance statements perplexed and unintelligible. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that there was a sinking fund of 17,000,000 l.; and then, said he, "see what a fine flourishing state we are in." But the fact was, they had no sinking fund left at ail. They took 12,000,000 l. from the fund, and 5,000,000 l. from the public, the interest of which must come out of the sinking fund; for he understood there were to be no new taxes. For his own part he did not think the loan contracted for this day necessary. If they really had a sinking fund, instead of taking 12,000,000 l. from the commissioners, it would be better to lay hold of it all, and thus get rid of the delusion, At present, they were only borrowing 12,000,000 l. from the commissioners, having previously furnished them with the means of lending it.
Mr. Humeunderstood the right hon. gentleman to have said, that he hoped this would be the last loan the country would require for a long time. But how could that be? Were these 12,000,000 l. to be made up next year? If they were not, and this delusive system were to be continued, the right hon. gentleman might go on borrowing every succeeding year. Such a system could only embarrass the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, in reply, that he feared there would be much confusion in the supposed simplification of proceedings which had been suggested by hon. gentlemen.
Mr. Alderman Heygatebelieved, that during the war the loans would have been borrowed on worse terms if the public credit had not been kept up by the, sinking fund which had been established by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, and ought to be held sacred. No delusion could now prevail upon the subject; for if its nominal amount had been stated at 17 millions, all classes in the country knew that it only consisted of five. With respect to loans, their result was evident. The present he conceived to have been contracted for on terms disadvantageous to the public; for it was done in a stock, the, nominal price of which was at a discount, of 30 per cent, and that price itself 14 or 15 per cent lower than the stock which, might have been created three years ago. It was most important for every man in the country, in whatever trade or profession, to know how the circulating medium

1031
was to be kept up. It was the most sacred duty of government to secure the maintenance of a circulation adequate to the taxation of the country. New, the money which this loan would take out of circulation could only be returned to it on the part of the Bank by purchases of gold, or exchequer bills by discounts. The last mode was inadequate, but he could not conceive what rational objection could exist to the Bank purchasing and selling exchequer-bills as they formerly did, by which means the circulation would be kept up when deficient and reduced when superfluous. He was persuaded the great cause of the present distress of our agriculture and trade arose from the continual reduction of the circulation which had of late been going on, and which tended, by raising unnaturally the value of money, to augment the pressure of taxes, pensions, and all fixed payments. It had been recommended to his majesty's government to issue bills to repay the Bank the advantages of the consolidated fund; but it was impossible to raise a loan to pay the Bank without producing a reduction of the circulating medium, which must be attended with increased distress throughout the country. He would therefore oppose any measure having that tendency; Such a reduction at present was unnecessary, for the price of gold being the same as the mint price, the Bank note was at par. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would state how the circulating medium was to be kept up notwithstanding the present loan. He deprecated the practice of taking loans after five years of peace. He thought the time was come when the country should look her situation fairly in the face; and was convinced that she still possessed sufficient wealth and energy to encounter and surmount her difficulties, without pertinaciously adhering to the ruinous system of borrowing.
Mr. Ricardothought it quite unnecessary for the Bank of England to reduce its circulating medium any further than it? was at present reduced. The worthy alderman had said that gold was now at the Mint-price; perhaps he might have said that it was a little under it; for he knew that many persons took gold to the Mint at the. Mint-price, in order to have it coined; and this they could not do if gold was not, in fact, a little under that price, because some space, of time must, elapse
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before they could receive the benefit of the coinage. But the worthy alderman appeared to labour under a mistake in supposing that a reduction of the circulating medium would be a consequence of this loan, or repaying the Bank. The reduction of bank-notes within the last year did not exceed 2,000,000 l.; that reduction of 2,000,000 l. was all that was necessary to bring about that state of the currency which all had united with the finance committee in desiring to see obtained. Indeed, if the Bank was desirous to follow their own interest, it was a clear and obvious one: if they were to effect a Very great reduction in their paper, which he should most sincerely lament, the consequence would be such a rise in paper, and such a fall in gold, that individuals would carry their gold to the Mint, and endeavour to fill up the circulation with it. As to the alarm felt by his hon. friend it was quite groundless, for there could be no fear but that the Bank would keep up a sufficient quantity of notes, as their own advantage depended upon the issue. As to the sinking fund, the argument of himself and his hon. friend had been, "Take away all which tends to delude the country—take away so much of that sinking fund as is not in reality an excess of income over expenditure;" Therefore he entirely concurred in the opinions of the worthy alderman, that they should immediately get rid of so much of the fund as, being nominal, was merely a delusion.
Mr. Humeobserved, that if the worthy alderman would refer to former cases, he would find, that upon occasions when the heaviest loans had been borrowed to the amount of 20,000,000 l. and upwards, the contracting of such a loan had not withdrawn more than 1,000,000 l. from circulation. The present loan could therefore have but little effect on it.
Mr. Alderman Heygatedenied that he ever intended to say that the circulating medium would be reduced to the full amount of the loan; but he was at a loss to know by what channels it would be poured in again upon the public. He should be most happy to find his fears groundless, and that the circulating medium would be kept up; in which case the industry and the revenue of the country might revive.
The resolution was then agreed to.

IRISH PROTECTING DUTIES.
The report of the Protecting Duties (Act of

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Union with Ireland) bill was brought up.
Sir J. Newportremarked, that some of the duties were extremely oppressive to Ireland and injurious to its commerce. Among the articles materially affected were those of books, pictures, and statues. The effect had almost extinguished the value of copy rights, and annihilated the trade of printing books. Through this, authors naturally sent their works to other parts of the empire; capital was in consequence withdrawn, and in proportion to the amount so withdrawn, the commerce of the country must be injured; he therefore wished the duties might be altogether repealed. The duty on coals was also most severely felt in many parts of the country; and was most injurious to the manufactures and to the poor. He wished these to be gradually diminished.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, that in many cases that which was called a protecting duty was, in fact, a tax upon Ireland, particularly the duty of 10 per cent on British manufactured articles imported into Ireland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had listened with the greatest attention to the opinions expressed upon this topic from both sides of the House, and particularly from those gentlemen, who as representatives for Ireland were better able to understand the subject than he was. But he found so many jarring interests, and so many conflicting opinions, that he thought it better to take up the subject at a future day upon a general scale, than attempt to discuss minutely a point in which both opinions and interests were at variance. It was his most anxious wish to disembarrass the intercourse between both countries by the abolition of all impeding duties on both sides of the channel as soon as the state of the public revenue would permit. One of his first objects was, to open a free intercourse between the literature of both countries. Others would follow as they seemed most expedient and practicable; and he trusted that before the lapse of many years, those final arrangements so very desirable to every friend of both countries would be adopted.
Sir John Newportbegged leave to suggest that the most speedy and effectual means of promoting the commercial intercourse between both countries was, to begin by an annual reduction of one per cent on the Custom-house duties of ten per cent between both countries recipro-
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cally; and thus in ten years the whole would be abolished. So persuaded was he on this point, that he would take an early day for calling the attention of the House to it.
Sir H. Parnellthought it would be of the highest importance to the interest of both countries to have the commerce of this country thrown open to the whole population of Ireland; and he should shortly call the attention of the House to the subject.