Commons Sitting of 7 May 1819

GRAND DUCHY OF BADEN.
Mr. Sinclairsaid, that he was desirous on this occasion to put a question to the noble lord, which he had been prevented, by want of a proper opportunity, from asking at an earlier period. It related to a transaction which had excited considerable interest, not only in this country, but throughout the whole of Europe. A treaty had been entered into between the courts of Munich and Vienna, for effecting, in behalf of the former, an eventual dismemberment of the grand duchy of Baden; and it was understood that this arrangement had received the sanction of several other powers. In order to avert this calamity from his subjects, the late grand duke of Baden executed a formal deed of settlement, by which he declared his dominions to be indivisible, and called to the succession a regular series of heirs. He (Mr. S.) therefore wished to know from the noble lord, whether this solemn act had been considered and recognised by the congress at Aix-la-Chapelle, and whether the courts which had entered into a conspiracy for despoiling a defenceless ally, had been induced to renounce this unjustifiable design?
Lord Castlereaghreplied, that if the hon. member would wait until the treaties connected with the territorial arrangements of Europe were before the House he would be better enabled to form an

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opinion on this subject. In the mean time, he could assure him, that no such communication as he had alluded to, was made to the congress at Aix-la-Chapelle.

ELECTORS OATHS BILL.
Mr. W. Williamsrose to move the second reading of this bill. After every consideration that he had been able to give the measure, he felt assured that his bill went neither to alter the mode by which members were seated in that House, to impair the rights of individuals, nor to disturb any species of property. Its object was solely to make that illegal which was acknowledged to be prima facie fraudulent, and to extend to boroughs the same principle which was so salutary in the election of representatives for counties. It demanded that a legal consideration should have been paid, and that the party voting should have actually the freehold in his possession. The fraudulent practice of splitting freeholds first took place in the reign of Charles the 2nd, at the period of the Popish plot, when the Presbyterians, inflamed with deadly animosities against the Papists, introduced, for political purposes, that practice; but its introduction was considered by the highest authorities of that day as illegal and unconstitutional; and on a cause tried at Kingston before lord chief justice Pemberton, that learned judge declared it to be a practice contrary to the principles of the common law, and subversive of the purity and dignity of parliament. In the reign of James the 2d, the practice was renewed, as a means of enabling that monarch to effect his favourite object of restoring Popery. Thus it was that the two parties, with objects so opposite, had recourse to the same fraud to accomplish their respective ends. The evil had so much increased, that in one county, on the eve of an election, 500 fictitious and fraudulent freeholders were made. The Act of Anne checked its progress, and since the passing of the 19th of George the 2nd, he believed there was no instance of any of these occasional and fraudulent votes being allowed at elections for counties. Why, then, should such a practice be tolerated for boroughs? On what principle could a distinction be made? And yet no man could deny that the practice existed in these places to a considerable extent. It might be said in answer, that it was open to the party complaining to prove such votes fraudulent before a se-
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lect committee of that House. The hon. member then proceeded to state circumstances within his own knowledge some years ago, to prove that such a mode of redress was inefficient. With the greatest respect for the House of Commons, the guardians of the liberty of the people, he must say that election committees frequently came to a decision not consonant to the law of the land. Was he wrong in trying to get rid of such practices? Was he wrong in trying to establish as a principle, that all who voted at elections should have bona fide votes? The remedy which he proposed was not new. There was some approach to if in the reign of Anne, and there were two acts of George the 2nd, which got rid of the evil as far as counties, and towns which were counties in themselves, were concerned. His object was to extend the operation of those acts to every borough in the kingdom. Who would say that such a proposition was adverse to the constitution, or to the principles of law? He knew there were persons who thought that there was something peculiar in what were called burgage tenures, which ought to exempt them from the operation of his bill. He really could not understand why they should be so exempted. Why should members of parliament be returned in any place by illegal means? Let the legislature, however, expressly declare that, and he should be satisfied. For himself, he thought those burgage tenures the greatest blemish in the constitution, and subversive of the rights of the people. It could not be expected, therefore, that with such an opinion he should introduce the exemption in the bill, but if the bill were allowed to go into a committee, and the sense of the committee should appear to be in favour of taking the burgage tenures out of the operation of the bill, he would not oppose it. The oath that he proposed was not a new one. By the 25th of the king, an oath was prescribed, of which that which he now proposed was only an alteration. All that he wanted was, that the oath should state distinctly, in virtue of what right the individual taking it was about to vote. At the present moment when the public mind was so much agitated on the question of parliamentary reform, he intreated the House to consider what a support and what a handle they would give by the rejection of such a measure to those who, under the pretence of reform, wished to overturn the constitution. Although he

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objected to all speculative and wild schemes, he gloried in being a parliamentary reformer to a certain extent, so that the people should have their due influence, and the prerogative its fair weight, In conclusion, he entreated the House not to reject a bill which would remedy a great evil, and was founded solely upon a practical view of necessary amelioration.
Mr. Davies Gilbertcomplimented the hon. member on the bold and manly manner in which he had treated the subject; and which rendered it, on the first view, of the question, difficult to see what objection there could be to the adoption of the bill. The bill purported not to make any alteration in the existing law of the land, but only to render it more effectual. To one provision of it, indeed, he saw no objection, namely, that which required every proprietor of a house or other property coming to vote at elections, to state the particulars of his right, the nature of the tenements on which it was founded, the locus in quo, and so forth. But his objections to other parts of it were most decided, for the bill in fact went to an entire subversion of one essential part of the constitution of the kingdom. He alluded to the most material and radical alteration it intended to make in the rights of voters in burgage tenure boroughs. It was known that according to the present practice, any one possessed of burgage tenure property to a sufficient extent, was permitted to give his vote, without the qualification of having been in possession a certain time before. Now, the bill went to make that qualification necessary. The hon. gentleman said, very candidly, he Lad a dislike to that mode of exercising the elective franchise. He (Mr. Gilbert), however, undoubtedly looked upon it as one of the essentials of our excellent constitution He contended, that that assembly did virtually represent the people of England, and that the interests of all classes were there effectually protected. But he thought it one of its principal excellencies, that, while it represented the people, it never yet consisted of a direct delegation from the whole body of the people. It was not possible that such a House—a House composed of delegates from all the nation—could co-exist with the remaining branches of the constitution, unless it were to be kept in awe and order by a military force. He was persuaded either that the execution would prevail by means of a military force, or
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that the delegated body would overthrow the monarchy. Foreigners and theoretical writers were fond of imagining that there was a balance in our constitution of parts opposite in views and interests. Such a balance he esteemed wholly visionary, or if there was any balance, it was to be found in the elements of the House itself; and he asserted, that the balance was effected through that part of the representation which came from the boroughs in question. He supposed that, after the strong manner in which the hon. gentleman had expressed himself of burgage tenures, as that they were a scandal and a disgrace to the country, he would scarcely give up the provisions of his bill which respected them. Unless, however, the hon. gentleman would consent to take away the provisions to which he referred, he thought he should best; discharge his duty by taking the sense of the House on the motion. He begged leave to repeat, that he did not object to that clause of the Bill which called on an elector to explain the foundation of the right on which he wished to vote, though, perhaps, it would be difficult to say how far it was applicable to burgage tenures; and certainly it would be embarrassing for the tenant in all cases to say whether he tendered his vote in right of freehold or burgage tenure tenements. Undoubtedly, all the objectionable parts to which he had adverted, might be removed in the committee, and he therefore trusted the hon. member would declare whether, if the House agreed to the motion, he would consent to introduce such amendments as he had hinted at.
Mr. Williamssaid, that thinking as he did of burgage tenures, it could not be expected that he should himself exempt them from the operation of the bill; but if in a committee the sense of the House should be adverse to that part of the bill, they might deal with it as they thought proper.
Mr. Brandmaintained, that the system of nomination was one of the greatest blots on the constitution. He thought the hon. mover's proposition perfectly fair. Let the bill go into a committee, and then let the hon. member for Bodmin propose to take the nomination boroughs out of the, operation of the bill. Besides, it should be considered, that the provisions of the bill were applicable to other descriptions, of franchise besides burgage tenures, to the correction of the irregularities attend-

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ant on which he supposed the hon. gentleman opposite had no objection. It was, in his opinion, the duty of the House to go into a committee on the bill as a declaration of general law; and it would then be for the hon. gentleman to point out what he thought ought to be the exceptions.
Mr. Courtenaysaid, that if the Bill was to pass, they were to assume a defect existing in the law, which it was not at all clear was so. At common law, occasionality, if made out, was decisive against the right of voting. His objection was, that that being so, it was not prudent to introduce a doubt respecting it, and, by a side-wind, to make a material alteration in the existing law regarding the exercise of the elective franchise. The bill enacted, that a person claiming to vote in right of a freehold should not be permitted to do so, unless he made a declaration, that he had been in possession a certain time before. He objected to that enactment, because he thought it was law already. The question was, was it prudent to make that law in the case of burgage tenure, which was law in the case of freehold? He thought the Bill unnecessary. When it was said that occasionality was against the general law of the land, he was aware, it might be urged, that that was not so, as the legislature had, at no very distant period, interfered, and enacted laws against it. But all the legislature did was, to explain the law, and supply certain deficiencies. Voting on burgage tenure property, in the mode referred to, had been so long acquiesced in, that it now formed a part of the law of the land. The learned member then moved, as an amendment, "That the bill be read a second time this day six months."
Mr. Serjeant Onslowmaintained, that the learned mover of the amendment had been inconsistent with himself, having first argued that the bill was unnecessary, and then admitted that parts of it might be made the subject of a separate measure. He would support the bill, on the ground that it only called on the voters to give certain criteria, in order to afford the means of ascertaining whether or not the general principle of the law against occasionality had been violated.
The question being put, "That the bill be now read a second time," the House divided: Ayes 46. Noes 127. The second reading of the bill was then put off for six months.

NEW POST OFFICE.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. R. Gordondesired, before the Speaker left the chair, to put a few questions to an hon. friend of his opposite, relative to the New Post Office. There had been already expended, in preparing the site of that edifice, the sum of 238,000 l.—a sum of such magnitude, that during the last parliament he had called the attion of the House, or if not of the House, at least of the country, to it. This scheme, which, on its first agitation, had been a mighty favourite with the hon. secretary of the treasury, though he had now perhaps repented of it, had been originally brought forward in the year 1814, just one year before the system of economy commenced. The questions which he wished to ask, referred to the manner in which the 238,000 l. had been expended for the ornament, accommodation, and convenience of the city, and the estimate of the expenses which were hereafter to be incurred. He had heard that the city of London was to pay one-third of the whole expense; but that was totally impossible. The only way in which they could attempt to do it, would be by the duties on coal and on wines, or by taking from the Orphan fund. That plan, however, would also be insufficient; so that he had no doubt that not merely the sum of 238,000 l. already expended, but also 158,000 l. which he heard was to be expended, would come out of the pockets of the people. He would also call the attention of the House to the manner in which the edifice had been ordered to be constructed. The secretary of the treasury and the chancellor of the exchequer had assured the House, on proposing the measure to its notice, that there should be a fair competition among architects for its plan; that there should be no favoritism, no partiality in the selection of the plan; in short, that there should be no job in the execution of it. In addition to this assurance, there was the report of one of their own committee containing a similar declaration. Such were the declarations of the first advisers of this scheme; and he therefore thought, that he was only seconding their intentions in preventing the erection of this new building from degenerating into a job. Now, he had heard that the architect of the post-office had sent in a plan to the secretary of the treasury, and that the secretary of the treasury had transmitted it

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for their approval to the commissioners of the board of works. He did not say that this was fact, but he wished to know whether the competition of architects was no longer to be allowed.
Mr. LushingtonStated, that until all the buildings were pulled down on which the new post-office was to be erected, it was quite useless to take any plan into consideration. Preparatory steps had lately been taken to promote a competition of architects. When it was recollected that 7 or 800 individuals were to be accommodated in the new office, the selection of a plan ought not to be made in a hasty manner. He could inform his hon. friend, that what he had chosen to denominate a job, would be not more an ornament than an accommodation to the city.
Mr. Alderman Woodobserved, that whatever money might be wanted for the new post-office, ought very properly to be defrayed by the public, as it was an absolute convenience for the carrying on of business. The city of London would pay 10,500 l. a year towards this expense as long as the orphan duty remained.
Sir J. Newportsaid, the best mode of producing a good plan, would be by exciting a free and fair competition of artists.
Mr. Lushingtonhad no hesitation in promising that that would be done.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having gone into a Committee of Supply,
Lord Palmerstonsaid, in rising to move the Army Estimates for the present year, he should not trespass long on the attention of the House. The report of the committee of finance on this subject was so full, and so minute in its details, as to leave very little to state by the person who brought forward the estimates. Upon a general view of the numbers of the army for the present year, as compared with the number of men voted last year taking, in the first instance, the permanent establishments of the two years, and leaving out the troops in India and in France, there would be found a diminution of 9,800 or in round numbers of 10,000 men. Upon a general view of the whole of the estimates of last year and the present year, there appeared to be a diminution in the present year of 26,042 men. This was the amount of the reduction of force which had actually been effected since the estimate of last year.
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From this diminution of numbers the House might be led to expect a considerable diminution of expense; but the House would recollect, that the expense of the troops employed in France was chiefly defrayed out of the contributions received from France; and that on their return to this country, after the allied troops had withdrawn from France, the pensions and half-pay of the officers necessarily became a burthen on this country. He should state to the committee the amount of the increase and decrease in the estimates of the ordinary services of the army in the present year compared with the last:—The increase in 1819 amounted to 362,194 l. 7s. 9d. The decrease to 273,359 l. 9s. 4d. Leaving an increase for 1819 of 88,834 l. 18 s. 5d. In point of fact, however, there was only an increase of 58,000 l. In the charge of the present year there was included 203,254 l. 11 s. the charge for the reductions of the regiments intended to be disbanded in the course of the year. The whole of this charge, however, was not of a temporary nature, for a part of it would continue after the reductions had taken place. After allowing, however, 58,000 l. for half-pay and Chelsea pensions, the remainder would be a saving to the country; and it was to be recollected that this sum of 58,000 l., the amount of the pay and pensions for the present year, would merge progressively into the reductions. If we looked at the whole expense of the establishments included in the estimates, and those included in the estimates of last year, there would be found a decrease of 763,000 l. But this of course included the army in France and the army in India, which could be considered a saving to this country. But then it was proper to view this, not merely with reference to the expense, but also with a view to the diminution of the patronage and influence of the Crown; and in this point of view a reduction of 763,000 l. from our expenditure was of very considerable importance. It was not necessary for him to go minutely into the causes and amount of the differences between the ordinary services of the army in 1818 and 1819, as a very full statement on this subject would be found in an appendix to the report of the finance committee. In the first class, which comprised the whole of the active and effective army of the country, the land forces, the staff, the public depart-

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ments, medicines, and yeomanry corps, In this first class there was a decrease of 272,000 l., as compared with last year. On the land forces there was a decrease of 263,000 l. produced by the reduction of 9,800 men. On the staff there was an increase of 2,236 l. But it was proper to state, that this increase did not arise from that part of the staff called the military; for there was one general officer less this year than in the last. The increase arose in the medical staff. When government first revised the medical staff some years ago, it was but justice to state, that the reductions ordered on the medical staff, appeared to the head of the medical department greater than he thought necessary. But if was thought advisable by the government to carry the reductions into effect, and to leave it to the commanding officers of the different stations to ask for an augmentation if it should be found necessary. Accordingly, various representations had been made by the commanding officers on foreign stations, in consequence of which augmentations had been ordered, which occasioned the increase of 2,236 l. In the allowance to the principal officers of the several public departments there was an increase of 4004 l. But this increase arose chiefly from 1000 l. for clerks employed in consequence of a temporary pressure of business, and from additions of 821 l. 5s. 6d. the grant of allowances to the deputy-paymasters lately employed with the army in France, on the disbanding of that army. The increase of 4004 l. might be said to consist of three branches.—First, temporary charges; secondly, half-pay in consequence of reductions; and thirdly, the transfer from the extraordinaries of 1,700 l. the charge of the military branch of the public departments in Ireland. Under the head of medicines, there was a diminution of 8,600 l. This was occasioned by the return of the army from France, by which the medical stores of that army were made available. On the volunteer corps there was a diminution of 1,872 l. This arose from the diminution in the charge for the Irish volunteers; for, in the English establishment, there was a small increase, in consequence of the augmentation voted last year to the yeomanry cavalry of this country. Taking together the various sums of increase and decrease, there remained a diminution on the first class of 272,000 l. With respect to the second class, it was not
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necessary for him to enter into any particulars now. The expense of the troops in India, as the House knew, were charged on the India company; for though it was charged in the first instance on this country, it was ultimately paid by the East India company. In the third class, which comprised the half-pay, pensions, &c. there was a considerable increase. In the military college, one of the heads, there was a diminution of 340 l. In the item of garrisons there was an increase, as compared with last year, of 259 l. In the article of pay for retired officers and unattached officers there was a decrease of 5,371 l. In the charge for half-pay and military allowances to reduced officers, there was an increase of 87,398 l. This increase arose from the reductions which had taken place. In the half-pay of the foreign corps however, there was a diminution of 6,635 l. In the charges for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals there was an increase of 121,325 l. But this sum could not properly be considered all increase; for 30,000 l. was taken in 1818 from the unclaimed shares of prize money, in aid of the charge of out-pensioners, and none was taken in the present year; and 14,257 l. 18 s. was taken last year from the poundage on out-pensions, making together 44,000 l.; so that the real increase was only 77,000 l. In the military asylum there was an increase of 3,631 l.; but this arose entirely from the increase in the price of provisions which were supplied by contract. In the widows' pensions there was an increase of 5,247 l. In the compassionate list there was an increase of 6,726 l. In the superannuation allowances there was an increase of 2,965 l. arising from the reductions which had been in the establishments in the commencement of the year. It might be satisfactory to the House, on stating this increase, to know what had been the effect of the reductions which had taken place in the official establishments in the years 1816, 17, 18, and 19—The reductions, on the whole, were 24,954 l. from which the retired allowances fell to be deducted, leaving a saving of 11,262 l. There was this farther consideration, that the appointments having been abolished, the remaining expense would only continue during the life of the persons enjoying the allowances. He wished, before proposing any resolution to the House, to draw their attention to that part of the Report of the Committee which related to

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the proportions between the charges for the active and the charges for the inactive heads of service. The whole of the estimates for the present year amounted to 6,379,548 l.—Of this sum, the charge for the effective part of the army amounted to 3,503,337 l. leaving 2,876,210 l. for pensions and other charges. In calling the attention of the House to this, it was far from being his intention to insinuate, that that part of our expenditure was either improperly or unfairly incurred, The pensions were first, for those officers whose professional prospects were closed by the very victories they had achieved; and next, for officers and men crippled in the service; and lastly, for the widows of officers fallen in the service. These were claims that he was sure a British House of Commons would always be led to respect. He knew how averse the House and the country were to all manner of charges, however trifling in amount, of which they did not see the justice or the necessity; but expenses necessary to the national honour and character, however heavy, were always willingly borne. With respect to the charges for the active and effective part of the army, he should proceed to state the effect of the reductions effected in the last two years. If they compared the permanent force remaining after all the reductions effected, with the force on foot—in the beginning of 1817 there would be found a reduction of 41,298 men, and a decrease of charge of 1,336,000 l. If they went back one year farther, and compared the army after the reductions with the amount of the estimates of 1816, the reductions would be 62,982 men, and the decrease of charge, after allowing for the increase of half pay, 1,566,000 l. He should not detain the House longer at present, but proceed to move the various Resolutions. The noble lord then concluded with moving,—"That a sum, not exceeding 258,776 l. 11 s. 2d. be granted to his majesty, to complete the sum required for defraying the charge of his majesty's land forces, for service in Great Britain, and on the stations abroad (excepting the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India company), from the 25th of Dec. 1818 to the 24tth of Dec. 1819, both inclusive, being 365 days."
Colonel Daviesconceived that a saving might be effected in the estimates of 120,000 l. It was not his intention to enter into any detail on the subject now; he
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should merely observe, that the saving might be effected by reducing two regiments of cavalry and a certain number of regiments of infantry, and retaining the reduced troops in the other regiments. By reducing three regiments of cavalry, without affecting their effective force, a saving of 50,000 l. would be produced. By the reduction of 15 battalions of infantry, a saving of 90,000 l. might be effected. He should not now take the sense of the House on the subject; but when the report was brought up, he should move, that 120,000 l. less than the sum then mentioned be granted. He could not help expressing his astonishment at the increase of the staff, and particularly when he compared the staff of Ireland with that of this country. In England, Scotland, Guernsey, and Jersey, there were seven general officers, exclusive of the commander in chief, and the heads of departments. In Ireland, there were no fewer than eleven general officers. The smaller staff was attached to the larger force. In this country there were 25,000 men, while in Ireland there were only between 17 and 18,000. He really did not see what called for this increase. The detection of smugglers was not a duty on which general officers could be employed. With respect to the military college, as far as he knew, it was of very little use. He himself was at the military college before he entered the army. We were then at war, and there was a constant drain from it for the army. Then, however, the number of cadets were only about 200, whereas now there were upwards of 300. What necessity was there for such a number of cadets, when there were so many officers on half pay who had a claim to be restored to the service before the reception of a single cadet? These young men were kept there at a considerable expense to themselves. It seemed to him as if a pretence only was wanted for keeping tip this enormous establishment. He should not, however, enter farther into the subject at present, but when the report was brought up he should show how the saving of 120,000 l. might be made, and propose a deduction to that amount from the estimates.
Mr. Humesaid, that the objections he had to make on the present occasion to some parts of the military estimates, would not, he hoped, be considered as in any way reflecting on the army. No man in the House was more sensible of the merit

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of the army, and of their gallant and glorious exertions to place this country in the high and commanding position in which it now stood. It had defended our rights in the most perilous times, and raised the glory of the country in an unexampled degree; but, on the present occasion, he had a duty to perform, as a member of the House, which was paramount to every other, to endeavour to lessen, if possible, all unnecessary expenses to the nation in its present condition. He thought, that, after the exemplary patience with which the people of this country had borne the great expenses of a long-continued war, they had a right, now that we were at peace, to expect such a reduction of the expences, as could be made without diminishing the force actually necessary for the safety and protection of the state. He was not one of those who thought a standing army should be entirely disbanded in time of peace; but he considered it important, that it should be as small as possible, and regulated only by the exigency of the times, not by comparison with times of war, and of extraordinary exertions. As to the numerical force proposed to be kept up, he thought it too great, but he should not offer any opinion as to what ought to be the exact number. He thought, that in considering the number, reference should be had to the amount of former peace establishments, to the circumstances in which the world is placed as to the distant prospect of war, and not by comparison with what force had been maintained during the three past years; and he must say that in the present state of the country 3,503,337 l. appeared to be a large sum for the efficient troops of a peace establishment. Highly as he respected the noble lord, the chairman of the finance committee which had laid a report on the estimates of the army for this year on the table of the House, he could not agree with the noble secretary at war, in the eulogium passed on the noble lord and on the labours of the committee on this occasion. He had to offer an opinion, certainly with great diffidence, but he believed that it was an opinion very generally adopted, that the finance committee had not on the present occasion fulfilled the expectations which were entertained of it. Their report on the table, as far as he could judge, was only a compilation and comparison of returns and accounts, which had been laid before the House, as
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called for from the public offices, and which any accountant might have easily prepared. The comparison of the establishment, and expense of the present year had been made as between those of 1817 and 1818, and in some of the establishments between those of the year 1814, a year of the greatest exertions this or any country had ever made in war, and which he believed could ever again be equalled. He had expected, that the Committee, in considering a proper military establishment for the fourth year of peace, would have had reference to the peace establishment of 1792, and not to a comparison with the estimates of 1814, or 1818. He was well aware, that we could scarcely expect to return to the military establishment of 1792, but he had no hesitation in saying, that we ought to approximate as near to it as possible, as the finance committee of 1817 had recommended. The finance committee of the year in their report state, that they avoid giving any opinion upon the numerical amount of the army, for the reasons given in the report upon the army estimates in 1817; and it was somewhat curious, on reference to that report, to find that that committee recommends an approximation to the military establishments of 1792, as absolutely necessary for the welfare of the country in the following words: "Your committee, in making reference to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which was deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit, that as near an approximation to the low scale of establishment and expense, as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions, and with the augmented rates of various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the burthens, and in supporting the public credit of the country." He could not avoid observing, that the suggestions of the committee of 1817 had not been attended to by the finance committee of this year in any one particular of the estimates, although they had referred to their report as an authority. He begged also to ob-

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serve, that by the orders of this House to the finance committee, they were to consider and report "What farther measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interest;" but in the whole of the report which the noble secretary at war had eulogized, there were no measures of that nature pointed out. He should only observe, that their report afforded a melancholy prospect to the country, if there was to be no relief from the burthen of taxation, necessarily heavy in war, but which should be lessened by retrenchment and economy, during the opportunity afforded by the return of peace. The noble lord stated a reduction in the amount of several items of the estimates as compared with those of last year, but there was also an increase in other items which rendered the total expense of this year greater than that of last year by 88,512 l.! This committee had to consider the total amount which the nation had to pay; and it appeared that no reduction had been made in the military expenditure in this year, as compared with 1818and it was, therefore, a question as to the credit for economy which was due to government for their exertions. It was, indeed, a fact worthy the most serious attention of the committee, that, by the estimate of the finance committee, the expenditure for 1820 would be, within a few hundreds, the same as for the past year. In 1818 the amount was 6,494,290 l.; in 1819 the estimate is 6,582,802 l.; for 1820, the estimate is 6,496,700 l. With an estimated peace establishment of that amount, it behoved the committee to consider what reductions should be made, as he was satisfied several might be effected with perfect safety to the country. He should not detain the committee with any observation on the number of troops, as the hon. member who had last spoken, intended to call the attention of the committee to it; but in the expense of recruiting, and the amount of the staff, here was great room for reduction. The Military College presented itself as particularly deserving the notice of the committee. Its expense for this year being 25,173 l. He was aware that during the war, when we had 3 or 400,000 men in arms, the college on its present scale might be highly beneficial; but it became a question worthy the serious attention of the committee, whether or not it
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should be continued on the same extensive scale, in the fourth year of peace, and with the prospect of its continuance. He had no hesitation in stating, that it ought to be very much reduced. It might be said, that the army was supplied with scientific officers from the college, and that it would be very bad policy to cut off that supply. He should prove to the committee, that such an assertion was in reality erroneous, and that the army neither had nor did derive that advantage from it which was generally supposed. There were now 400 cadets at the college, and as four years were required for their education, there should be one hundred a year supplied as officers for the army: But by a return now on the table, which he had moved for, it appeared, that in the three years preceding January l819, only twenty-five a year had been supplied, making in the whole seventy-six cadets, appointed from the Military College to commissions in the army, from Jan. 1816, to Jan. 1819; so that the country had paid for the education of these 25 cadets, upwards of 1,000 l. each; and 374 youths had been educated, in the expectation of obtaining commissions, and had been disappointed. He begged leave to read what the finance committee of 1817 had reported to the House respecting the Military College which he regretted had remained so long unattended to: "Your committee cannot however but question the expediency of continuing the establishment on its present extensive scale. They most heartily join in the feelings which would induce parliament to provide for the orphan children of those gallant men who have sacrificed their lives in the service of their country; and also for the children of meritorious officers now actually serving, but if the whole number at present on the establishment are to be provided with commissions, it must unavoidably operate nearly to the exclusion of all other classes from the army. And your committee submit whether such a system would not be in direct variance from what has hitherto been practised in this kingdom; and whether it might not justly be considered as inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution. But if these young men cannot be promoted, it is almost superfluous to remark on the inexpediency, and eventual cruelty, of educating them for stations which they are not likely to fill, and of encouraging hopes that must be disappointed." [Hear.] The next item upon which he should

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make a few observations, was the half-pay list, amounting to 2,876,210 l.; which although great, he was confident the nation would, under all its pressure, willingly pay, as the reward of long and arduous services in the defence of the state to deserving officers; but the great amount, and the distressed state of the finances of the country, rendered it the more necessary that it should not be increased farther, by placing on it new pensioners, who had not served in the war. By a rectum on the table made up to March last, it appeared that there were 1,663 captains, 3,063 lieutenants, and 1,214 cornets and ensigns on the half-pay list, of whom many would be glad to join the army on vacancies occurring. It appeared that in the three years from January 1816 to 1819, there had been 720 gentlemen, appointed to commissions in the army, of which number 294 had been appointed without purchase, (i.e. had their commission given to them) and in the same time, 294 of these cornets and ensigns had been placed on half-pay, at an expense of from 54 l. to 63 l. a year; thereby creating an annuity of 16 or 17,000 l. a-year, which might have been entirely saved, by bringing officers from the existing half-pay; and by that means there would have been a double saving, amounting to 35,000 l. as the half-pay of the officer brought in full-pay would have been saved to the public. [Hear.] If the half-pay of the 598 officers is calculated at twelve years purchase, there had been an unnecessary expense created to the public of about 400,000 l., and which he contended ought to have been saved. It must be evident that some alteration must be made in this mode of proceeding, equally expensive and ruinous to the nation, as it was cruel and unjust to the officers on half-pay, who would have been most happy to have been placed on full-pay and actual service, instead of those new men who got the commissions, and were, as appears by the returns, soon afterwards placed on half-pay. He knew that it might be considered as an interference with the patronage of the illustrious duke who presided over the army, but it seemed only equitable, that, while every one was suffering some privations, and making some sacrifices, he should forbear to add to the burthens of the country as he had done, by giving yearly to one hundred persons, pensions of from 50 l. to 60 l. for life, by granting new commissions, while so many merito-
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rious and tried officers were anxious to be employed. He trusted his majesty's ministers, who professed themselves anxious to adopt every means of economy, and which they had in many cases, he believed, exercised with pain to themselves, would not allow so unreasonable a course of proceeding.—There was another head of expenditure to which he begged the attention of the Committee—The Royal Military Asylum, supported at an expense of 36,482 l. Although that establishment might be considered proper daring the extensive military exertions this country had made, he must express his strong doubts of the policy of continuing it on so extensive a scale in time of peace. At this particular time, when the country was suffering from over population, and when the grown-up population could scarcely get food, it appeared to him to be bad policy to encourage an increase of population from the army at so great an expense to the state. He thought the scale of the establishment should be much reduced, though by degrees. He should not ground any motion on these observations at present, as he considered that any reduction, to be effectual, should be undertaken and made by his majesty's ministers, which he sincerely hoped, they would do.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that the great question for the consideration of the committee was, whether an army of 29,553 men was not too large an establishment to be kept up in time of profound peace. It was impossible that such an army could be employed in performing the duties of the country, particularly when it was considered that there were numerous corps of volunteers established in the different districts. The army kept in Ireland amounted to 20,670 men. If such a number of soldiers were necessary to the maintenance of tranquillity in Ireland, it was a disgrace to the government of this country. It was the duty of ministers to adopt such measures as would make the people of Ireland attached to the government, instead of making them detest it. He had been told, that nearly the whole administration of justice in Ireland, was carried on by means of the military; and it was in evidence, that all the gaols of that country were guarded by soldiers, in the room of police; nay, he understood that the offices of turnkeys and attendants, were performed in the same way; and that in one gaol alone, there were no less than

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37 soldiers employed to do the duty which could be done by three turnkeys. There were major-generals on the Irish military establishment, in number equal to those employed in England and Scotland. There could certainly be no occasion for so large an establishment. There was one subject which he should feel it his duty to bring forward on a future occasion, if the noble lord did not inquire into it; he alluded to the Waterloo prize-money. Whether it was from the vague and unsatisfactory regulations made for the distribution of this money, or from what other cause he knew not, but the effect was, that numbers of those who were entitled to it had been refused, while it was foisted upon those who had no claim whatever to receive it. The troops not actually engaged had been deprived of this money, though they were employed as beneficially, in protecting the flanks of the army and guarding the baggage, &c. as they otherwise could be: yet those troops who were on their passage from America, and those who had been lounging in St. James's-street, when the battle was fought, and who had travelled over to Paris, en bourgeois, in their gigs, were allowed to participate in it. The whole of the medical department, who had the care of the wounded of all countries, were also excluded from any share of this money. Was this fair or equitable? The whole of the Hanoverian corps, who had sustained great injury in the action, had also been excluded, with the exception (and it was rather a curious sort of exception), of those officers who had run away, from their regiments, either before or during the action. Those officers who had so ran away, having joined the army before it reached Paris, were allowed prize money, while those who had remained at their posts were, according to some new-fangled rule, refused it. Some more fair and liberal division of this prize-money ought to be made, and he hoped the noble lord would take the subject into consideration.
Sir A. Hopewas surprised to hear an hon. member, advocate the abolition of the Royal Asylum. It was due to those who fought for the country that this provision should be made for their children.
Mr. Humebegged to explain. He would be the last man to advocate the abolition of that establishment. What he had said, was, that as we were now in a state of peace, a considerable reduction might be made in its expenditure.
Sir A. Hopebegged pardon. He had understood the hon. member differently. The next objection which had been made was to the Military College. This subject had been discussed before, and a committee had reported to the House that it was beneficial to the country in supplying officers for the army. The hon. member here entered into a detail of the present expenses of the establishment, which, he observed, were much reduced from what they had been during the war. None of the cadets were promoted to commissions in the army, but such as were found fully qualified, and of these only sixteen now remained to be provided for.
Sir I. Coffindid not mean to find any fault with the army estimates, but he hoped, if an opportunity of reducing the expenditure of the country offered, it would be embraced by ministers.
Lord Palmerston, in answer to the objections which had been made to the number of men in each regiment, said, that it would be impolitic to fill them up to the usual compliment in a time of peace. If that were done, and a war were to break out, the only means of augmenting our forces would be by raising now regiments; which it was obvious would be attended with great delay and inconvenience; whereas, by the present regulation, considerable addition could be made to the army, by filling up each regiment. He did not mean then to enter on the subject of the Irish staff, as it was under the consideration of government, and would be matter of future discussion. The Military College merited the support of the country, as it had supplied the army with many able and meritorious officers. It was well known how great an inconvenience, on the breaking out of a war, it was, not to have scientific officers—and scientific officers could only be obtained by experience or by instruction. Such an establishment as the Military College was necessary to keep the army in a state of efficiency; for notwithstanding the gallantry of our officers, without either that experience which war afforded, or that instruction which it was the object of this college to give, they must yield to men of superior science. As to the extent of that establishment, it was not found that it turned out more cadets than could be provided with commissions, for the support of the army on its peace establishment. If that were the case hereafter, there could be no hesitation in making a proportionate

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reduction in that institution. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hume) had said, that the half-pay system required serious attention, and recommended, as a measure of justice and economy, that the commissions should be filled up from that list. He had not gone the length of saying, that all commissions should be so filled up. Many officers on half-pay, it was recollected, were those who had obtained commissions for raising corps, and who had always been given to understand, that they would be reduced and put on half-pay; they had, in fact, merely purchased in that manner an annuity for life. Yet the commander in chief had always paid attention to the expediency of filling up commissions out of the half-pay list, and if the half-pay of the officers removed from that list were calculated at twelve years purchase money, 2,678,000 l. had been saved in that way to the public. On the augmentation of the army in 1815, there had been appointed to commissions 339 officers from that list, whose half-pay at 12 years purchase would have cost the public 226,000 l. It was said that the commander in chief might, by putting an officer on half-pay, grant an annuity without the consent of parliament. But this view of the subject was not correct, as, unless by exchange with another officer on half-pay, no officer was put on the half-pay list except by the reduction of his corps, which was a matter of general arrangement. As to the Military Asylum, the object of it had met with general approbation from all parts of the House. It was, in fact, a charitable institution; and there could not be better objects of charity than those for whom this establishment provided—the orphans of officers who had died in the service, or the children of those, who, being ordered on foreign service, were unable to attend to their education. It was said, that with a peace establishment such an institution was not necessary. But how short a time had elapsed since we had a most numerous army? There were now constantly more candidates for admission, from among the orphans of soldiers, than could be taken in; but if peace continued for some time, there might be room for reduction. In reply to the observation respecting the Waterloo grant, and the complaint, that the medical staff at Brussels had no share in it, he stated, that the rule was, that as this sum was granted as prize money to those who had been engaged in the battle
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of Waterloo and the capture of Paris, those only who were engaged in the battle, in the sieges of fortresses, or in the capture of Paris, were to share. The garrisons in the rear of the army at Ostend, Brussels, and other places, were, by this rule, excluded, It often happened, that those who performed duties of great danger, did not obtain prize money which was shared by persons who had undergone less difficulty or hazard. But this was inherent in the nature of prize money. It was necessary to draw a distinct line somewhere; and as to the medical officers at Brussels, though they had performed a laborious and responsible duty under very disadvantageous circumstances, they could not be admitted to share unless, the whole of the troops in the rear, including a veteran battallion, which had two days before arrived from England, had been admitted to share also. If the care of the wounded of itself gave a claim to prize money, the medical officers at Deal (whither many of the wounded were removed) would have a claim. He contended that former years did not form a fair criterion as to the amount of force required in the present year. In the last year, sir W. Burroughs had moved to reduce 10,000 men, and a noble lord (Althorp) had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men only; yet, in the present year, 9,800 men had been reduced.
General Gascoynecould not concur in the construction which the noble lord put on prize money, which he seemed to think the effect of chance rather than the reward of brilliant service.
Lord Palmerstonexplained, that he meant to put no such construction; all he had stated was, that the prize-money was limited to the army actually in the field, either at Waterloo or at the capture of Paris.
General Gascoynewas glad to hear this explanation given; still, however, he thought the medical officers immediately attending on the wounded at Brussels, ought to have been considered in the distribution of the prize money. In the late promotions, he certainly believed that the appointments were made in two cases out of three when they were not taken out of the half-pay list, from promises made to meritorious officers, who had faithfully served their country. In his own regiment, the only five vacancies which had occurred were filled up from the half-pay list.
Lord Althorpsaid, that when on a former occasion he had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men, it was not that he desired no greater reduction, but because the House had previously negatived a motion for reducing 10,000 men. The establishment for England of 29,000 men seemed to him enormous, especially at a time when only two millions were applicable to the reduction of our debt. The force in Ireland, great as it was, might be necessary; but that necessity was only created by the misgovernment of that country.
Mr. Bennetcontended that this was the 6ingle solitary instance in which the medical staff had not shared in prize money, as matter of course. At Lisbon they shared with the army for the capture of Badajos, at Salamanca for the battle of Salamanca, at Vittoria for the battle of Victoria, and it was now, for the first time, that a ray of light had broken in upon the generosity of his majesty's ministers.
Sir R. Wilson, after highly eulogizing the character, services, and merit of the medical staff, and contending for their right to a participation in the Waterloo grants, particularly in the case in question, where they were exposed to considerable personal risk, proceeded to put a question to the noble lord. He observed in the army list the names of officers continued four years, yet having a mark against them, to denote that they had only temporary rank. Now, he thought it would be very unfair and injurious to the service, if they were to be permitted to count this as part of their time, and so be enabled, eventually, to dispose of their commissions.
Lord Palmerstonreplied, that it was the usage of the service to confer this honorary distinction on particular individuals; but they held no commissions in our army, nor, of course, derived any emolument from that honour. It was purely, indeed, honorary, and had been in the present case conferred on some distinguished foreigners as a mark of favour.
Sir R. Wilsonasked, if any of the officers alluded to, as standing on the army list without a commission, did not receive pay.
Lord Palmerstonreplied, that, there was not one as he believed.
Mr. Bennet, again adverting to the subject of prize money to medical officers,
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said that the distinction made by the noble lord regarding the medical officers at Brussels and (hose on the field at the battle of Waterloo, did not hold in other cases, as the medical officers in garrison at Lisbon had received prize money on the retreat of the French from before Torres Vedras, though at a great distance from the scene of action.
The resolutions for the different items of supply were then successively put and agreed to.

BANKRUPTCY LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. John Smithrose to move, that the House should resolve itself into a committee on this bill. He said, that the necessity of making some alteration in the present system was so generally acknowledged, that it would be unnecessary for him to dwell upon it. Some of the most eminent lawyers had given their opinions on this subject, and had suggested the means of correcting those abuses which now existed. He had had communications with many individuals high in the estimation of the country upon this subject; who had advised him to divide the bill into two distinct bills. This advice he had also received from many professional gentlemen, whose recommendation was entitled to the highest consideration. He had, therefore, divided his bill into two parts; the first was the regulative part, and related chiefly to the new administration of a bankrupt's effects, the appointment of assigness, the receipt of dividends, and the recovery of debts; the second contained the alterations which he wished to make in the existing law. The hon. gentleman then moved, that the committee should have power to divide the bill.
Mr. Alderman Waithman, after complimenting the hon. mover upon the diligence with which he had investigated the evils of the bankrupt-laws, said that there were certain clauses in the present bill to which, he could by no means give his support. It appeared to him inconsistent with reason, that there should be seventy commissioner appointed to decide on bankrupt cases, and that there should be only one judge to decide upon the petitions of insolvents, of which he understood that 4,000 were presented annually, affecting the property and interests of numerous individuals.
Mr. Courtenaycould! not allow the exertions of his hon. friend on this sub-

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ject to remain without that meed of praise to which they were so justly entitled. There were some clauses in the bill which were highly beneficial; others in which he could not concur. On the clause for appointing assignees with the powers and privileges which the law of Scotland gave to agents, be should say a few words when the matter was discussed on the recommitment of the bill.
The Solicitor Generalsuggested, that if it were printed in two several bills, the discussion on each might take place separately, and thus save much of the time of the House.
Mr. Smithhad no objection to this proposal.
The House then went into a committee.

ILLICIT DISTILLATION IN IRELAND— TOWN-LAND FINES.
General Hartpresented a petition from Jeremiah Loughry, complaining of the hardships which he had suffered under the Illicit Distillation laws, and praying that his grievances might be taken into consideration.
Sir John Newportsaid, that he should take the present opportunity of asking the right hon. gentleman opposite what had been done with regard to the distillery laws. On a former occasion, he had expressed his surprise at the very extraordinary conduct of ministers on this question; and now he had to express his surprise at a still more extraordinary determination (if men whose principles were so wavering could be said to have any determination) to which they had, as he was told, very recently come. They had abandoned the town-land fines, and had abandoned them after the obstinate defence of them which they had lately made, in such a manner as showed, that they had not done so from any conscientious alteration of their opinions, but from the influence of threats which had been held out to them of a loss of support in several of their adherents. If a ministry could be found that were cowardly enough to sacrifice one-fourth of the revenue of their country to the threats of individuals, was that an administration which deserved the support of the House, or the confidence of the people In what a situation would the House be placed, if another body of their supporters should go to them and say, that they would withdraw their support, unless the ministers retracted the resolution which they had previously formed? For his own part, he
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did not conceive that the determination of his majesty's ministers would be productive of any advantage whatever; on the contrary, he anticipated great mischief from it. From papers that had been printed since the last discussion, it appeared, that this measure, which had just been rescinded, had driven into a small compass illicit distillation. He had no doubt that immediately this decision was made known in Ireland it would again revive and flourish. However reluctant he was to differ from those of his countrymen with whom he was accustomed to act, and he was sorry to say that he did differ from them on this question, he knew that none of them would differ from him when he said that ministers ought not to consult what would be the result to themselves if certain threats were executed, but what would be best for the interests of the country? He believed the statements which he had heard that morning to be perfectly true. In order to give ministers an opportunity of contradicting them, if they were not true, he would repeat them. A body of Irish members had waited that morning on the chancellor of the exchequer, and the secretary of state for the foreign department, and had stated, that unless the town-land fines were abandoned, they would abandon the ministry.
Lord Castlereagh, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. R. Martin, and several other members rose. The rest, however, gave way to
Lord Castlereagh, who said, that he had never witnessed a greater exhibition of intemperate warmth than that which the right hon. baronet had just displayed. The exultation of the right hon. baronet was so great, in consequence of the idle story which he had heard, that he could not restrain the ebullition of his feelings till the order of the day for taking this question came on, but had vented it upon the presenting of this petition. He did not rise with any intention of repelling the aspersion which had been thrown upon the members who had risen along with him; they were able to defend themselves; but he rose with some warmth, and a good deal of indignation, to repel the charges which had been urged against his majesty's ministers in general, and himself in particular The right hon. baronet's connexion with a commercial town might account for his feeling with regard to the measure. That the measure
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was successful in a great degree, he would admit; but if it was attended with hardships, it was the duty of ministers to consider what might be the effect of a change in the law. It was premature to discuss, at the present moment, what the chancellor of the exchequer might propose as a substitute, as it was unnecessary to answer the stories which the right hon. baronet had picked up that morning. He could, however, assure the House, that his majesty's ministers had not been intimidated by any threats, but were solely influenced by a wish to relieve Ireland from the oppression she suffered under the system. If the evils resulting from it could be avoided without injury to the revenue, he was sure the House would receive the alteration with satisfaction. He had himself attended the meeting alluded to that morning, and could assert, that nothing of the kind described had taken place. His right hon. friend had intimated, that by the encouragement of small stills the evils likely to result to the revenue from the abandonment of town-land fines might be avoided; and that was the whole case upon which the right hon. baronet had got up the tragedy or farce, or whatever description of dramatic entertainment it was, with which he had just amused the House.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldagreed, that it might have been better if the right hon. baronet had omitted his observations, of which, however, an unfair advantage had been taken. If the chancellor of the exchequer had indeed changed his opinions, and abandoned the system, at least it would have been but decorous if he had stated to the House the grounds of his alteration. The question was, whether he had abandoned that system of cruelty, tyranny, and injustice: if he had, credit was undoubtedly due to him, though at a heavy expense of personal consistency. Was the rumour true or untrue? If true, had he communicated with the representatives of the great towns, and those who were most interested as to its effects only? The other night he had maintained, with much earnestness, that if the system of town-land fines were abandoned, great injury would arise to the legal distillers; their ruin would ensue: yet now it appeared that he had consigned them to ruin without the slightest compunction. He had said, that the system was essential to the morals and happiness of the people; yet now he had consented to leave them a
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prey to immorality and misery. If any new plan were in project, it was to be hoped that it would secure the collection of the revenue by the proper officers, without taxing the land, and without endangering the morals of the inhabitants. It was certainly most singular that the right hon. gentleman's opinions should have undergone so strange a revolution in, the course of a few days; but the more singular it was, the more bound was he to state his reasons, and to take especial care to obtain information and advice from every quarter capable of affording it.
Mr. V. Fitzgeralddefended the system of still fines, upon the ground of necessity, and deprecated the epithets that were applied to it. He had supported the principle while in office as a choice of evils, and if he were still in office, he would do the same. He hoped that the measure intended by his right hon. friend would prove effectual; for no man could more rejoice in the abandonment of the principle, provided it could be done without injury to the revenue and the morals of the country.
Sir J. Stewartsaid, that whatever his opinions might be on the law relating to still fines, he should not be influenced by the opinion of any chancellor of the exchequer, for he never knew two of them to agree. It was the constant misfortune of Ireland, that it never had a chancellor of the exchequer who seemed either willing or able to entertain sentiments of general policy calculated to serve the common interests of the realm, and yet not conflict with local concerns. There were no fixed principles, but the country was oppressed by an imperium in imperio, by which the general advantage was sacrificed to local and partial interests. He took shame to himself that this law originated in an Irish parliament, and the history of it was this: the chancellor of the exchequer induced the country gentlemen of Ireland to vote for this savage and barbarous enactment, by promising them, if they supported him, that all the spirits of the country should pay a certain duty. In the course of another session, however, this engagement was forgotten, and the system was maintained without the advantages that were promised.
Mr. Wildman, though not an Irishman, could not hear such accusations brought against the Irish without feeling indignant. Accustomed as he was to follow in the train of ministers, he could not hear

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such gross attacks upon them without warmly resenting them. He had come into the House with a strong prejudice in favour of ministers, and a disposition to support their measures; but this was from a conviction that they were right. If ever he regretted one vote which he had given in the House, it was that which he gave a few evenings ago, against a motion from the other side of the House upon this subject. That vote pained him a great deal, because he thought the system which the motion opposed was one which went to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty; but he was now glad to find that it was likely to be altered. He could not bear to hear the chancellor of the exchequer attacked in the way he had been. If he could think that the chancellor of the exchequer was capable of yielding to any threat, the House might depend upon it that he never would vote with him again upon any question.
Mr. Dawsonsaid, he felt the greatest indignation at the attack which was made by the right hon. baronet upon the gentlemen connected with Ireland. He was one of those who had waited that morning on the chancellor of the exchequer and the noble lord, upon the subject then under discussion. They had found every disposition to attend to their statements; but he utterly denied that any thing like a threat was made use of.
Mr. Peelsuggested that the House had better abandon the discussion into which it was surprised, and return to the petition, which was the only subject regularly before the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that he had recanted the opinion which he formerly held. He still thought that the measure was useful in suppressing illicit distillation, though it was attended with hardships in particular cases. With this view, he had agreed to the proposal of going into committee on the subject. Subsequent reflection had suggested a measure which he hoped would operate as a substitute, and which he should propose in a few nights; till that time the House would do him the justice to suspend their judgment. With regard to the interview of that morning, he should only say that he had met the gentlemen with every disposition to conciliate, and that they had made no attempt to deter him from the adoption or rejection of any measure.
Sir G. Hillmaintained the necessity of the principle of still fines, and expressed
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much doubt as to the efficacy of any substitute that could be devised.
Mr. Martin, of Galway, did not rise to offer any thing in defence of the noble lord or the right hon. gentleman: he did not think they needed it. But when the right hon. baronet had stated, that a number of Irish members had gone in a body to ministers, for the purpose of intimidating them, he had, though intending to wound the government, wounded the character, or attempted to do so, of those members. Could it be believed, that because their own object was not carried, they would inflict a wound on the government in the most tender point, by voting for those measures which originated on the opposite side of the House? It did not follow, that because he could not attain a great good, that he should support a great evil to the country, by giving his support to the measures of the right hon. baronet and his friends. He did not mean to defend the noble lord, and the right hon. gentleman. The noble lord and his friends did not require it; but it was absurd to say that they could be intimidated. If any hon. member thought that the noble lord could be intimidated, he would seriously recommend him to try the experiment. He gave credit to the motives of the right hon. baronet. He had no doubt they were sincere. The right hon. baronet was a very useful watch upon the measures of the administration. He was well skilled in accounts and other minor matters, and was of service on the opposite side of the House, where, as long as he had a vote, he would endeavour to keep him [A laugh].
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, he did not rise to defend his right hon. friend,—he thought his conduct was not only out of the reach of censure, but above all praise. He did not know any public man who laboured so hard, who acted so zealously, or so much to his own honour, for the benefit of Ireland and the general good of the empire, as the right hon. baronet. The noble lord had, without meaning it, acted unkindly towards his right hon. friend—he had charged him with directing his attention to local and particular interests. He did not direct his attention to local interests, but where he was called upon to do so as a public man. As to the system of distillation, he would not enter into that subject for the present; he would merely state, that a great portion of the revenue of Ireland arose from

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the distilleries. He would also state, that the great distillers of Ireland had suffered most severely from the vacillating system which the government had adopted respecting their trade When he reflected on the course that was now to be adopted,—when he reflected on the sudden and unaccountable manner in which it had been adopted—when he saw ministers suddenly abandon a system which had succeeded, and to adopt one alike opposed to the increase of the revenue and the morals of the people—nothing was more just, nothing more reasonable, than to call for a declaration to satisfy the great distillers of Ireland, who had laid out their capital. He thought it was but fair to ask, whether they were to be turned round again, and whether their interests were to be sacrificed to the expediency of the day? For his part, he could not but hear, with surprise and indignation, of the determination that had been come to, without ministers ever consulting the distillers of Ireland.
Sir J. Newportrepeated his assertion, that he had received his information from authority on which he could depend, though the fact had been, in some degree, disavowed by those who were concerned! in it. He wished to know when it was the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer to bring forward his measure, and whether he proposed to communicate with those persons in Ireland who were interested in the question?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he would bring it forward in a few days, and communicate in the mean time with those who ought to be consulted.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that feeling as he did for the morals and the prosperity of Ireland, he was rejoiced at the step the Prince Regent's ministers had taken to abolish so cruel, so unjust, so oppressive a system. If gentlemen would only inquire into the subject—if they would consider the cruel operation of the still fines—if they would reflect on the utter falsity of the charge made against the character of the gentlemen of the north of Ireland, they could not hesitate to put an end to a system which was unjust and oppressive, impolitic and absurd. The distilleries in the north of Ireland had been more particularly adverted to—and here again he would entreat the attention of gentlemen to a consideration of the system, to the expense of its machinery, to the employment of military power, to
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the wretchedness which it occasioned. The desolation which it caused was more than sufficient to counterbalance any pecuniary advantage to be expected from it; and the expense with which it was attended, rendered it one of the most miserable means that could be devised for recruiting the treasury.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.