Commons Sitting of 25 June 1819

BANK ADVANCES BILL.
Mr. Peelhaving moved the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Grenfellexpressed his satisfaction at its enactments. It was, he conceived, a measure which, allowing to the Bank their fair proportion of profit, would prevent those abuses to which he had so frequently called the attention of the House. It was now four years since he had first called the attention of the House to the nature of the transactions between the Bank and the government—since he had pointed out where it was that a saving might be made without any injustice to the Bank. Perhaps, now that the country was to be let into a portion of the large profits which were made—now that there was to be established those regulations for which he had contended, it became him to say, that he would now take his leave of the Bank subject. There were still, however, some details which remained to be settled, such as the charge for the management of the public debt, which amounted to some 200,000 or 300,000 l. annually. Yet he felt satisfied upon this head, as he understood they were to be submitted to the committee of finance, or some other committee in the course of the ensuing session. He could assure the House, that he had no other than a motive of public good in all the motions he had made. He was actuated by no feeling of personal hostility towards the members of that respectable body, the Bank; and if in the course of arty observations which he had had occasion to make, he had expressed himself with unbecoming warmth, he was sorry for it.
The bill was then passed.

EXCISE DUTIES BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Westernsaid, he felt himself bound to oppose the motion. Much had been said on the subject of taxes affecting the poor, and taxes affecting the rich. The distinction was more apparent than real; for taxes on the poor must inevitably be felt by the rich, and taxes on the rich must diminish the funds for the employ-
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ment of the poor, and consequently affect them as well as the rich. But certainly the more immediate operation of these taxes would be first felt by those whose means were already so inadequate for their proper support. For this reason, he objected to the tax on malt. He objected to it, as throwing a heavy burthen on the lower orders, and pressing with peculiar severity on an article of the first necessity. The new taxes amounted to three millions, and two millions of them were on an article, the consumption of which was of the utmost importance to agriculture—there being 1,500,000 l. on malt, and 500,000 l. of additional duty on British spirits. Were the House aware, that at that moment there was no less a sum than nine millions of taxes on malt, beer, and British spirits? The effect of this heavy taxation on malt must be, to diminish the consumption, and consequently the growth of barley. In 25 years, the consumption of malt had been reduced one-fourth. In 1790, and ten succeeding years, the average consumption of malt was 3,390,000 quarters. For the ten years ending 1816, the average consumption was only 2,907,000 quarters; so that, at this last period, there was a reduced consumption of 420,000 quarters. But it appeared from papers on the table, that if, in comparing the consumption of the two periods, an allowance were made for the increase of population in the latter, the consumption of 1816, in order to be equal to that of 1790, ought to have been above 4,200,000 quarters. Did not this clearly show, that when taxation was carried beyond a certain point, it had the effect of diminishing consumption? The House here saw the most useful articles for the consumption of the people positively reduced by the operation of this tax. In the period commencing with 1790, the price of barley was 31 s. the quarter, and the duty 10 s. a quarter. In the tatter period, barley had advanced to 40 s., when at the same period the duty had advanced to 24 s. Under these circumstances, it was thought necessary to take off the increased duty. By the imposition of taxes at the present moment, the House were taking a dangerous step. Whatever effect might be produced on our finances by having an actual sinking fund as contradistinguished from an imaginary sinking fund, he thought any advantage to be derived from this would be bought too dear by adding to the burthens

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of the country. He did not wish to underrate the resources of the country; but at the present time he thought the best policy would be to husband them, and not to press too severely on the people. For this reason he would move as an amendment, "That the bill be read a third time this day six months."
Mr. Ordsaid, he should not discharge his duty, if he did not protest in a more formal manner than by a silent vote against the present bill. Nothing could, in his opinion, justify any additional burthens on the people at the present moment.
Mr. Farrandcontended, that it would be highly unjust to levy the new duty on the stock in hand. On account of the great fall in the price of barley, by the importation of foreign grain since the beginning of the season, the malster would not be able to realize from his malt the cost price of the raw barley.
Lord Ebringtoncould not help calling the attention of the House, to one point connected with this question, which he thought of considerable importance. When the proposition for the new taxes was first brought forward by the chancellor of the exchequer, it was accompanied with a resolution on the subject of economy and retrenchment, which could not have been forgotten by the House; and he (lord E.) was much disappointed, that, whilst the House had so readily acquiesced in the imposition of these burthens, no measure whatever had been proposed by ministers, for carrying the above resolution into effect. But how much was that disappointment increased, when, by the paper lately laid on the table, entitled "Increase and Diminution of Public Salaries," it was shown that the expense of the public offices for the last year, had exceeded the former one by above 100,000 l.; that, in the two departments of Customs and Excise, 136 additional officers had been appointed in 1818; and that the increase of expenditure, under different heads, in these two branches alone, amounted to 107,000 l. It was true that some reductions had been made in other departments; but setting the one against the other, there still remained a clear increase of no less a sum than 103,000 l. in the course of the last year. He could not but hope, that those who had been so ready to impose burthens on the people would give some more specific pledge of their disposition to enforce economical reform than was contained in the
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high sounding but empty professions, the vox et prœterea nihil of ministers.
Sir R. Wilsononce more entered his dissent to the proposal now before the House. At this moment new rumours of disturbances were afloat in the manufacturing districts; plots probably not planned by desperate leaders, but by insidious instigators. But what materials would these men have for their work, were it not for the burthens under which the people were groaning. The new taxes were, when compared with the whole present amount of taxation, said to be small; but it is the last feather that breaks the horse's back.
The question being put, "That the bill be now read a third time," the House divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 65.

List of the Minority.

Barham, J. F.

Heygate, ald.

Barnard, viscount

Hume, J.

Barnett, J.

Hutchinson, hn. C. H.

Becher, W. W.

Lamb, hon. G.

Bernal, R.

Lawson, M.

Benyon, Ben.

Lefevre, C. S.

Birch, Jos.

Lemon, sir Wm.

Brand, hon. Thos.

Monck, sir C.

Brougham, H.

Moore, Peter

Burdett, sir F.

Neville, hon. Rich.

Byng, G.

Newman, R. W.

Buxton, T. F.

North, Dudley

Burrell, Walter

Newton, Wm.

Calcraft, J.

Onslow, A.

Calvert, Nic.

O'Callaghan, Jas.

Calvert, C.

Palmer, C. F.

Cavendish, lord G.

Pares, Thos.

Coffin, sir I.

Parnell, sir H.

Colborne, N. R.

Phillipps, C. M.

Concannon, L.

Powlett, hon. W.

Crawley, Sam.

Price, R.

Crespigny, sir W. De

Robarts, A.

Davies, T. H.

Robarts, W. T.

Denison, W. J.

Rowley, sir W.

Duncannon, visc.

Smith, John

Ebrington, visc.

Smith, Wm.

Ellice, Ed.

Smith, hon. Robt.

Fane, J.

Wharton, John

Farrand, R.

Wilson, sir R.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M.

Wodehouse, Ed.

Grant, J. P.

Wood, ald.

Gordon, Robt.

TELLERS.

Griffiths, J. W.

Orde, W.

Gooch, T. S.

Western, C. C.

Harvey, D. W.

CASH PAYMENTS BILL.
Mr. Peel, on rising to move, that the House should accede to the amendment introduced by the Lords into the Cash Payments' bill, observed, that in the alteration of their lordships was involved no departure from the principle of the clause upon which it was founded. By that clause, the option

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was left to the Bank of resuming the payment of their notes in the current coin of the realm on the 1st of May 1821, and the only change made by the amendment of the Lords was, to defer that option until the 1st of May 1822, this change being deemed necessary to enable the Bank more effectually to prepare for the complete resumption of cash payments.
Mr. Ellicesaid, he thought it ought to be left to the discretion of the Bank to return to payments in specie as soon as it might be deemed expedient; that it should be allowed to proceed as early as convenient, from the price of bullion or other causes, to discharge imperceptibly (if he might use that expression) the one and two pound notes, the bulk of which ought to be taken out of circulation previous to the entire resumption of cash payments. He would agree to the amendment, although it fell short of his views, rather than risk the clause altogether. Another reason for pressing the principle of that amendment was this, that in case the Bank should contract its issues of paper, while bullion should fall in price below the rate at which the Bank was to pay its notes, he could not conceive how the transactions of the country were to be carried on, if the Bank was prohibited from paying in specie, especially as gold in ingots was not a legal tender. Besides, any gold coin paid into the Bank could not again be issued, until the period mentioned in this amendment, and thus the currency of the country would be limited. Another reason for the adoption of the clause referred to was this, that although it was provided by the bill that the Bank should pay certain notes in ingots of gold, there was no provision that those ingots should be again received in payment by the Bank.
Mr. Manningexpressed his concurrence in the views of the hon. gentleman, with regard to the expediency of leaving it to the discretion of the Bank to determine at what time, and under what circumstances, it would be proper to commence the payment of its notes in the currrent coin of the realm.
The amendment was agreed to.