Commons Sitting of 8 June 1819

STEAM ENGINES.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, that Steam-engines were at present so numerous in many places, that the smoke which issued from them clouded the atmosphere, and endangered the lives of his majesty's liege subjects. To prevent these consequences, he wished the legislature to compel them to consume their own smoke. He had made inquiries of those who were best capable of judging whether or not this was practicable, and all the artists whom he had consulted agreed in thinking it might be easily accomplished. All lawyers considered the evil which he was now desirous of remedying as a nuisance, and an indictable offence; and in a late trial before Mr. Justice Bayley, the Court had held it to be incumbent on the defendant to show, that he had used all the means in his power to prevent the nuisance complained of. His motion was, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire how far it may be practicable to compel persons using Steam Engines to erect them in a manner less prejudicial to public health and public comfort." If the motion were agreed to, it was his intention to examine artists on the practicability of the plan which he had in view; and then to move that the report be printed, in order to have it circulated during the recess. Should he succeed in convincing the committee of the benefits that would result from the adoption of his plan, he would, if he lived to see another session, move for leave to bring in a bill to carry the recommendation of the committee into effect.
Mr. Curwenthought the plan of his hon. friend would be productive of the greatest benefit to the public, and that it only wanted publicity to ensure its general adoption.
The motion was then agreed to.

SLAVE-REGISTRY BILL.
Mr. Goulburnin a committee of the whole House, rose to state the object of the bill which he proposed to introduce, to be the prevention of illicit slave trading by means of a Register of the Slaves in the West Indies.

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So far as the sense of the House had been ascertained on this subject when the bill of his hon. friend (Mr. Wilber force) was under discussion, no objection had been made to the principles of the measure; all the objections offered had been against the details. One great argument urged in favour of the measure was, the extent to which illicit commerce in slaves had been carried. He did not place it upon that ground. He did not believe that the laws respecting the slave trade were generally transgressed. Some instances of violation undoubtedly occurred, but the practice did not generally prevail. The proof adduced to show the extent of illicit trade was, the number of slaves found at one period in some of the islands above the number at a former period. The difference, he was of opinion, had arisen from the superior accuracy of the latter enumeration. A similar increase of numbers, beyond any actual increase of population, was observable in our own census. It had been stated, that 5,700 slaves had been imported into Trinidad in the course of two years. If so many slaves had really been imported, it was impossible but some captures should have been made. He was confirmed in his opinion on this point by the state of others of our colonies. There was the greatest difficulty of introducing slaves into Barbadoes, as it was the great naval station for the West Indies; the island was besides so fully supplied, that there was no inducement for introducing slaves; yet, it was said to have had 9,836 more slaves at one period than it had had two years before. The number, too, of African slaves in the island of Barbadoes, at the latter period, was 5,496; so that, if a real increase of 9,336 had taken place, slaves born in the island must have been imported. Still, he considered it of importance to the character of the West Indies, and to our own character, that there should be a registration of the slaves. Our purity and innocence ought to be placed on record. Viewing the trade in slaves as a blot upon the national character, he could not think that any obstruction should be thrown in the way of the proposed measure. If the House could not annihilate the trade, they ought at least to do all in their power. The plan to be proposed was, that there should be an office in this country, in which duplicates should be lodged of the number of slaves in each colony; that an individual
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should be appointed for its superintendence; and that power of reference to the duplicates in this office should be given to all parties. On the removal of slaves from one colony to another, certificates were to be given to that effect, and precautions adopted to prevent abuses of the permission given by the act 46th of the king to slaves to accompany their masters from one colony to another. His bill would be more restricted than the bill of his hon. friend, but the cause was, that the colonial legislatures had made it unnecessary to pass a more extended law. He concluded by moving, That the chairman do ask leave to bring in the bill.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that it could not be supposed that he rose to object to the motion. One material part of the bill which he had himself proposed was comprehended in this measure. He could better judge of the details when he should see the bill. One thing he was ready to contend, and he believed it would be conceded to him, that registration was necessary to afford assurance that there was no illicit trade carried on. In vain had we passed the acts against the slave trade, unless we followed it up by measures like the present. He trusted that the French would follow our example. That great and generous nation would not, he trusted, suffer their banners to be polluted by this foul traffic. We were looking forward with earnest expectation to the time when no nation on the face of the earth would afford protection or encouragement to the trade in human beings. But far short of this were we at present. Not less than 50,000 slaves were stated to have been imported to the Havannah in the course of the last two years. The bill which he had introduced made the slave illegally imported free, because he was considered as involuntarily a slave. The hon. gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that the intention had been to give them nominal freedom without providing for their future protection. But whatever delay might be interposed in giving them freedom, he hoped those emancipated would be really taken care of. He trusted, that every island would either have a register, or not be allowed to carry any slave into it. If this measure should be carried into effect, and be accompanied with the good-will of the colonies, he should rejoice.
Mr. R. Gordonwarmly remonstrated against the establishment of a new office

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for carrying the object of the bill into effect. An additional clerk to that third secretary of state's office, which already cost the public 29,000 l. a year, would be quite sufficient for the purposes of the measure. Instead of which, it was proposed to create a number of fees, upon each registry, and that the overplus, after paying the new officers, should be carried to the credit of the civil list. Now, after what had recently transpired in the House, he thought that it was too much to establish a new and expensive office, with fresh patronage to the Crown.
Mr. Marryatdid not mean to oppose the bill, because he thought the registry of slaves would be attended with beneficial results; but he agreed with the hon. member, that there was he necessity for the introduction of a large and expensive establishment in this country to produce those good effects. That it was intended to be an expensive one would be seen from the clause which provides that the principal officer in it should not have a seat in the House. The very introduction of the clause showed, that the person to be chosen must be highly respectable. As to the trouble which the establishment of the registry might give in this country, he conceived that if any gentleman in the colonial office, would devote two hours of two days in the week, he would do all that was necessary.
Lord Miltonagreed, that some decisive step should be taken for the effectual abolition of the slave trade; and if a registry in this country could tend to that great object, it ought to be adopted. This duty was the more imperative upon England, as by many nations on the continent her motives were suspected in this business.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO THE PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.
Mr. Brogdenbrought up the report of the Resolutions relating to the Public Income and Expenditure. On the question, that the first resolution be agreed to,
Mr. Curwenrose. He did not mean to object that some measures for providing for the deficiency of income should be adopted; but he felt great distrust in those which proceeded from the noble lord opposite and his colleagues. He had heard in the commencement of the session, a long account from the noble lord of the flourishing state of the country; but he
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had since found, that the reverse of the picture was unfortunately true. He could not, therefore, give to the noble lord and his colleagues that credit for the present measure which they claimed. After all the petitions which had poured in from various parts of the country, describing the general distress, could they be ignorant of the real situation of the country? Ought they not to see that this was not a time for laying on new taxes? In fact, the situation of the country was worse at the present moment than when it was paying an income and a malt tax. The wages of labour were reduced one-third in consequence of the decrease in the consumption and value of our manufactures. In the city of Carlisle, there were not less than 4,000 persons who, by the hardest labour of 14 hours per day, could not earn more than 5s. 9d. per week. The situation of many other parts of the country was hot much better. Was this, then, the time for the imposition of new taxes? If the country could afford it, he would not be one to object; but the fact was, it was not able to pay those already imposed, as might be seen from the very great difficulty in their collection. The malt-tax he condemned, as tending to decrease the use of malt liquor, and thereby giving an inducement to the lower orders to resort to the consumption of spirits. By the proposed tax on wool, a material injury would be done to a very important branch of our manufacture. The effect of both would be, to create greater evils in the country than those which they were intended to prevent. Could any man look at the present situation of our revenue, and seethe many useless situations which were paid for under the head of its collection, and say that the economy was observed by ministers which the distresses of the nation required? Collectors, with large salaries, and whose duties were performed by deputies, were kept up, in order to support the patronage of government, and the people were pressed to their last farthing to support this unnecessary extravagance; Had a system of economy been commenced at an earlier period, we should have seen a disposition in the country to make the greatest sacrifices. He must once more repeat his decided opposition to the resolutions.
Sir H. Parnellcontended, in opposition to what had been advanced by the noble lord, that the present resolutions were a perfect departure from the financial system

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of Mr. Pitt. For if the system of Mr. Pitt had succeeded, we should now have a sinking fund of 21 millions, and a peace establishment supported without the aid of war taxes. In place of this being the case, we had a sinking fund of two millions and seven millions of war taxes. So that it was not to be disputed, that there was a complete financial failure of the sinking fund system. He believed that during the war, the system of expenditure had been carried to a greater extent than the exigencies of the war required. Several millions a year were unnecessarily wasted. In the ordnance department, for instance, nine millions had been wasted in works which had never been applied to any use. If the House had not interfered, and repealed the property tax, they would never have seen any of those retrenchments, for which the noble lord took credit. Whether the reductions could be carried farther was a question, that admitted of no difficulty. Without the sacrifice of a considerable degree of the patronage of the Crown, it was vain to expect any farther reduction; but the state of the country required a more extensive sacrifice of patronage, and a greater innovation in the whole system of carrying on the government, than might have been justifiable under other circumstances. If we persisted in adhering to all the old; forms, it was absurd to suppose that any considerable degree of retrenchment could take place. In the collection of the revenue there was great room for improvement. With respect to the different public offices, there was hardly any one branch of any one department which was not faulty, in the manner in which accounts were kept. The mercantile system was no where in use; the consequence was, great delay and great inequality, and many more clerks being employed, and much more expense incurred than, otherwise would be necessary. There was the most complete evidence of this in the 5th report in 1810. The forms of office, too, were tedious and expensive. In the Customs, a man was occupied a day with what ought not to occupy an hour. The laws regulating the collection of the revenue were full of inconsistencies and minute arrangements, which gave rise to much difficulty and expense; and this was particularly the case with respect to those pacts of them which related to protecting duties, bounties and drawbacks. The various boards, too, would admit of great
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reform; for a much smaller number of commissioners and boards might be sufficient. There were no less than 64 commissioners in the several boards of England, Ireland, and Scotland for collecting the ordinary revenue. The principle of consolidation of boards might be carried into effect with great benefit to the public service. Why might not Ireland and Scotland be placed under the superintendence of the boards here, just as well as the whole superintendence of the revenue was placed under one board of treasury? He believed this would not only be more economical, but, from the superior manner in which business was conducted here, of great advantage in other respects. If they were to look also to what they were voting and paying every year for the proper application of the public money, they would also find great room for retrenchment. The treasury board alone cost 90,000 l. It appeared from the report already alluded to, that the exchequer forms were useless and inconvenient; that accounts were kept in a character difficult to understand, and by which the operation of summing them was impossible. It was an abridgment of old Latin. There was no character to express a million, and it was wholly unintelligible except to a few clerks, till translated by others. This was in itself a source of useless expense. In the public departments of the navy, army, and ordnance, there was great room for retrenchment. In many departments the salary was as high now as in the war. From the confused manner in which accounts were kept, the audit of then became necessarily expensive—the audit office cost the country 53,000 l. a year. The sum of 1,200,000 l. was paid merely in order to take care of the public money after it came into the exchequer. If the right hon. gentleman had been sincerely actuated by the spirit of the last resolution proposed by him, he would soon be able to effect a considerable reduction in our expenditure. Another branch of the expenditure which admitted of considerable reduction was, the civil government of the country. The foreign department cost 63,000 l. The home department cost 32,000 l. a year. The colonial department 28,000 l. The privy council 27,000 l. The expenses of the lord lieutenant of Ireland 100,000 l., making in all 250,000 l. a year. From his knowledge of Ireland, he would say, that the executive government of that country might be car-

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ried on much better on cheaper principles. Though great improvements had taken place under the gentleman who lately filled the office of chief secretary (Mr. Peel), there was still great room for retrenchment. A great deal of the old system of the Irish castle government still remained, and the sooner it was wholly abolished the better it would be, not only for the public good, but for more easily governing the country, and even making the patronage of it more useful to the Crown. Many of the bounties paid in Ireland were quite unnecessary. There was no need, for instance, of 50,000 l. for bounties to a manufacture so well established as that of the linen manufacture. There were 3 millions paid by this country, on account of Ireland. The cause of this had been attributed to a mistake in settling the quotas of contribution at the time of the union. This however would not prove to be the case, if the matter was fully investigated. For the expenditure of Ireland amounted to the full quota of her contribution, or very nearly to it. The financial difficulties of Ireland existed at the time of the union, and, lord Clare in his printed speech on that question positively denies that they had been occasioned by the war, as some supposed, and wholly set them down to what he called a war against our own people. He fully made out his case, and showed that the military establishment which had occasioned the debt to advance so rapidly from 1795 to 1800, was the result of the Irish rebellion; or in his own language to those measures which had become necessary "to put down the brutal Irish." This was a useful illustration to show the effects of governing Ireland by resisting the wishes and rights of the people. If lord Fitz-william had been allowed to conciliate their affections to the state, England would not now be paying 3 millions a year on account of the Irish debt. This was the effect of taking an opposite course, and of keeping down the people with a large army. If Ireland had been governed on wise principles, that expense might have been saved. He protested against the imposition of new taxes at the present moment, arguing that they would not prove productive, and that the revenues of the country ought to be allowed time to recover.
Mr. P. Moorecommenced by an affecting detail of the miseries to which the manufacturing people of England were
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reduced: he said, that skilful tradesmen belonging to the place which he represented, worked for hours for a few farthings. He asked, were the ministers of the Crown acquainted with the state of the country? If they were, if they really knew the state of distress and wretchedness to which the people were reduced, they were most criminal in proposing additional taxes; if, on the other hand, they were not acquainted with the state of the country, they were still more criminal not to have informed themselves of that important fact, before they proposed to place three millions of additional taxes on the necks of a people already groaning under burthens which they were no longer able to bear. The true mode of reducing the debt would be by purchasing when the funds were low; but ministers adopted a contrary principle. In various operations during the war, had this principle been pursued, there would have been saved a sum equal to one-fourth of the national debt. He could not consent to the infliction of any new taxes, until he should see the ministers sincerely disposed to relieve the distresses of the people.
Mr. Humedoubted much whether the surplus so much spoken of really amounted to two millions; he apprehended it would be found to fall 500,000 l. short of that amount. The country had certainly to thank ministers even for this tardy avowal of the condition of its finances; but if taxes were to be accumulated upon taxes in the way proposed, it would have little to thank them for on the score of economy. It ought not to be forgotten, too, that the new imposts almost exclusively pressed upon the lower orders. Rather than vote for them, he would willingly have consented to a property-tax, by which the rich proprietors of the country would be compelled to contribute their fair proportion. It had been objected that no particular branch of expenditure had been shown to be exorbitant, but he insisted that they were all too enormous; and if ministers had been sincere in their professions, they would have done more and promised less; promises would not relieve the starving manufacturers of Carlisle or of Coventry. If ministers wanted information where to begin their retrenchments, he would refer them to the finance report of 1817, where the committee recommend that steps should be taken to enable our newly-acquired colonies to support their own expenditure. Had go-

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vernment made any such attempt? Unquestionably not; and in the colonial estimates no less than 67,000 l. was voted in one mass to general Brownrigg for Ceylon, and 48,000 l. to governor Farquhar, at the Mauritius. In the whole, nearly a million was disposed of without the slightest attempt at specification. The same remark would apply to the Ionian islands, and if ministers had been so anxious to stick to the letter of the treaty with Spain, why had they not stuck to the letter of the treaty regarding the Ionian islands. The immense civil list ought instantly to be diminished from 1,200,000 l. to 900,000 l.; and if sacrifices were required from the people, they ought first to be made by the Prince. The higher the station, the more bound was the person filling it to set an example to the rest of the country. Instead of that, a military mania prevailed that cost the kingdom incalculable sums; bands trapped in scarlet and gold were daily paraded about the streets, as if to mock the squalid poverty of the lower orders [laughter from the ministerial benches]. Ministers might laugh, but let them look at the other side of the picture; let them survey the misery of the poor laborious industrious wretches at Carlisle, or even of the unhappy beings they met in our streets. The right hon. the member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning) had taunted the right hon. member on the floor (Mr. Tierney) for stating that a reduction of 1,000,000 l. in the public expenditure might be made, and had told the House, in a sarcastic and ironical manner, that 2,000 l. from the lords of the admiralty, and 6,000 l. from a secretary of state, had been pointed out for retrenchment, making the large sum of 8,000 l.; and that only 992,000 l. remained to make up the million. He regretted, that that right hon. gentleman was not present, as he bad last night ridiculed the idea of economy, and had, in a most unwarrantable manner, talked of the puny savings of a few six shillings and eight pences. But let that and other hon. gentlemen consider what support and assistance even such small sums would afford to respectable and industrious families, who could not at the time obtain so much wages for a whole week of hard labour. It could not be alleged that the right hon. member was ignorant of those facts, as the petitions on the table from the workmen of Carlisle, Coventry, and Perth, described m strong language the distress of those
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poor and suffering wretches. He (Mr. Hume) could not detach his feelings from the condition of thousands now under the greatest sufferings in every district of this country, particularly when he thought that many of those now suffering penury and want with their families, were perhaps born with as good prospects in life as himself or the right hon. gentleman. Gold lace and gorgeous trappings added nothing to the British character; economy was what was needed—strict, undeviating economy; and instead of it, waste and expenditure ran riot in all departments. Look at the office of commander in chief: would any man believe that we were paying 16 guineas a day to an individual for filling an office which was wholly useless? The income of that royal duke was scarcely less than 100,000 l. per annum. The expenses of the Mint and of the Woods and Forests ought also to be reduced: the latter was not of the slightest use, and he hoped to live to see the day when even the pretence of necessity was taken away, by the sale of all the Crown lands, which cost the nation far more than they were worth. When ministers talked of economy why did they not begin themselves by making sacrifices? why was the example of the noble marquis (Camden) still solitary? In the staff of the army only 50,000 l. might be saved; in the ordnance department 30,000 l. and in the army extra ordinaries no less than 150,000 l., without the slightest danger to the great interests of the state. The navy he did propose to diminish, though it cost 6 millions for only 20,000 men, because the greater part was expended upon place and patronage. One great source of charge to the nation was, the mode in which stamps were distributed. In all cases much more was paid to the distributors than they merited. In Aberdeen, the distributor was paid 1,400 l. to do that which hundreds would gladly undertake for 300 l. In truth, the profit upon stamps was 10 per cent; so that no salary at all ought to be allowed. He perfectly agreed in the propriety of applying 5 or even 8 millions to the sinking fund; but he was much averse to the imposition of three millions of taxes, in the present distressed state of the country. For the reasons he had stated, if no other member proposed an amendment to the last resolution, he should himself divide the House upon it.
Mr. Primrosesaid, that, however anxious he might be for retrenchment in

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every quarter, yet he was not prepared to go the length of rejecting the measure proposed altogether. Whatever economical arrangements were made, they ought to be upon such a principle as would go hand in hand with the proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer. The sum of 5 millions had been proposed as a sinking fund, and he confessed that he was anxious that even a larger sum should be applied for that purpose. The only true sinking fund would be formed when the income exceeded the expenditure. He thought no man would maintain that with a debt of 800 millions, the sum of five millions was too much to be devoted to its reduction. With respect to the taxes themselves, he objected to, particularly, the tax upon malt; and he thought that a tax might be imposed upon the importation of foreign corn, from whence the agricultural interest might derive great advantages. This might, perhaps, he said to be favouring too much the landed proprietor, but he always had considered that the interests of the fund holder and the landholder were so intimately connected, that in supporting the one, the other was sure to be benefitted.
Mr. D. W. Harveyopposed the Resolutions. This was not the period for adding to the burthens of the country. If it was deemed necessary to add to the sinking fund, let it be done by reducing the expenditure of the country. It was the fashion at present to propose reductions; he would therefore recommend the curtailment of the enormous expense incurred to the country by prosecutions for offences against the Excise laws. At present, five barristers were engaged on the part of the Crown in each case. Taking this expense at an average of 40 l., it would amount to about 24,000 l. a year, which sum might be saved to the country. If every gentleman would propose a reduction which could fairly be made to a similar amount, there would be no need of additional taxation. Until such reductions were made, he should oppose every attempt to increase the burthens of the people.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanobjected to the imposition of even a shilling, in the shape of new taxes upon the people. The real question to be considered was, not what ought to be the amount of the sinking fund, for whether it was to be five millions or ten millions signified little; but Was the country now in a state to bear
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these taxes? The minister had been unable to make a loan to the extent he wished for, and had recourse to the sinking fund. To this expedient he had been driven, and he would find, ultimately, to his astonishment, that although the taxes were increased, the revenue would be grievously diminished. The malt-tax, the tax from whence the largest revenue was to be derived, he had the greatest objection to, as it would weigh the heaviest upon the poorer classes of the community. The chancellor of the exchequer had complained of the frauds of the brewer upon the public; but he begged the House to mark the course which the right hon. gentleman had taken; he had indeed complained of these practices, but had not expressed the least objection to participate in the profits thus derived by the brewer. "No," said the right hon. gentleman, "the public shall not be robbed without my having a hand in it." So that, if the brewer had acted honestly, the public must be content to pay an additional price for the beer; but if he had acted dishonestly, then the chancellor of the exchequer would participate in the profits. With respect to the tax on wool, he had also a strong objection to it, because the evident tendency of it would be, to drive this most important manufacture out of the country, and thus throw thousands of individuals out of employ. By a reference to the returns before the House, it would be seen that the amount of woollen goods exported was upwards of 9 millions per annum, while the amount of the importation of the raw material did not reach to above half that sum. Another effect of the imposition of the new taxes would be, and it was one of much importance in its consequences, to send out of the country many thousands who either were not able to pay, or would not pay the taxes. The greater part of those, however, who thus fled their own country, were the very men who lived upon taxation, and who having imposed fresh burthens upon a starving people, retired to enjoy themselves in a foreign country. These were not subjects to be treated in a sportive manner, and it would become his majesty's ministers to deal in something more than generalities when they called upon the House to impose fresh burthens on the country. They might talk of their majorities, and boast of their influence elsewhere; but he was one of those who thought the Prince Regent would have little difficulty in find-

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ing successors for them, and that too for the advantage of the country. If no other hon. member would do it, he would himself move for a committee, composed neither of placemen nor pensioners, to inquire whether it was possible by retrenchment to avoid laying taxes on the people. Sent there as he was, freely and without expense, by the metropolis of the British empire, he entered, in the name of his constituents, his protest against and declared his abhorrence of this attempt to lay new burthens on the people. Nor would he vote a single sixpence until it was made manifest that the country had no resource in economy [Hear, hear!].
The first resolution was agreed to. On the second resolution being put,
Sir J. Newportobserved, that from the wording of this resolution, a censure was passed, and would be conveyed to posterity, upon the whole Irish nation. Ireland had contributed her full share to the heavy demands that had been made on the united kingdom. In propotion to her capacity to pay, she had been taxed more severely than Great Britain. It was stated in a report of the finance committee, that, large as was the increase in the revenue of Great Britain, that of Ireland had increased in a greater proportion. Justice to Ireland required that so unqualified a declaration should not be put upon the journals of the House. He proposed, therefore, as an amendment, that it should be stated what was the amount of supplies actually raised, and what the efforts had been which Ireland had made since the legislative union of the two countries. It was no satisfactory answer to tell him that such a statement would contain a mere truism; it was right that the whole truth should be distinctly, avowed. Ireland had shed her best blood, and sustained the heaviest pressure of taxation, in support of the common cause; her incapacity to bear more taxes could only be attributed with truth to oppression and misgovernments With these views he should propose the addition of the following words:—"notwithstanding there had been raised by taxes on the people of Ireland, and paid into the exchequer, within the period which elapsed between the union of the kingdoms and the consolidation of the treasuries, the sum of 60,125,000 l., being an annual average of 3,750,000 l. raised by tax, and exceeding the annual average of twelve years preceding the union, which was
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1,344,000 l., in the sum of 2,400,000 l. net revenue."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought the proposition of the right hon. baronet might be objected to without any discussion of the truth of the facts which it set forth. Admitting the correctness of the statement, it would be foreign to the present question to enter into an inquiry as to the cause which had produced such a result. A load of debt existed which must be provided for, and he trusted that neither himself nor the House were disposed to treat Ireland with injustice. He knew how to estimate at their proper value the exertions which Ireland had made during the war; but this was not a fit occasion for entering into a general discussion of the subject of Irish finance.
Sir J. Newportsaid, his object in moving the amendment was, to vindicate Ireland from the libel which was contained in the resolution.
The amendment was negatived and the resolution agreed to; as were also the 3rd 4th and 5th. On the 6th resolution being put, viz. "That to provide for the exigencies of the public service, to make such progressive reduction of the national debt, as may adequately support public credit, and to afford to the country a prospect of future relief from a part of its present burthens, it is absolutely necessary that there should be a clear surplus of the income of the country, beyond the expenditure, of not less than 5,000,000 l. and that, with a view to the attainment of this important object, it is expedient, now to increase the income of the country by the imposition of taxes to the amount of 3,000,000 l. per annum,"
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he should not be doing justice to his constituents, if he did not express his dissent to the present proposition. The noble lord had asked for confidence and accused a part of the House of not acting with openness and candour. He, for one, could not entertain that confidence in his majesty's ministers which would induce him to place in their hands a larger disposable revenue. What was the opinion which a retrospect of their conduct was calculated to suggest? They had been compelled most reluctantly to abandon the property tax, and to reduce the army estimates. The whole system of their administration might be judged of by these instances. That general distress prevailed was not denied; but the right hon. gentleman, nothwith-

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standing, proposed three millions of taxes on articles of the most general consumption. He believed the calculation of their amount was fallacious. The duty on tea might be called a regulation, but it would not fail of raising the price. It was, too, a singular period for imposing a new tax on tobacco, for the price of it was already high, and the supply of it from America very scanty. The right hon. gentleman was determined to pursue the labourer through all his enjoyments; he began by taxing beer, then spirituous liquors, then tea, and at last the quid of tobacco. It was premature to impose any taxes till the effects of the resumption of cash-payments upon the prices of all articles should be seen. He was one of those who entertained no very high opinion of the utility of the sinking fund, and he believed it would not be long before some change would take place in the public mind respecting it. He should move by way of amendment to leave out from the word "that" to the end of the resolution, in order to add these words, "with such an estimated surplus applicable to the reduction of the national debt, it is not expedient at this time, in the present distressed state of the country, and until every practicable retrenchment has been made in the national expenditure, to add to the burthens of the people by the imposition of new taxes," instead thereof.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the course adopted by the hon. baronet was certainly a more fair and open one than that which was taken on the preceding evening, by the gentlemen opposite. His amendment went to negative directly all that had previously been agreed to, and appeared on the Journals. Indeed, the effect of it would be, to declare, that the finances of the country were in such a state as did not require any remedy or alteration. It went, in fact, further. It declared that the people ought to be satisfied with their present situation, and that no improvement was necessary—[Hear, hear!]. It certainly did convey that idea, except so far as a remedy for distress could be devised by economy and retrenchment. Now, so far were he and his hon. colleagues from shrinking from a system of economy, that he had, in the last resolution, embraced all that was useful in the hon. baronet's amendment on the score of retrenchment. Those gentlemen, who thought that parliament ought not to make an effort for the
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arrangement of the finances, and those only, would vote for the amendment.
Lord Miltonremarked, that the right hon. gentleman appeared to confound the country with the revenue. The questions for the House to consider' on this occasion were, first, whether the taxation proposed would serve to increase the revenue; and secondly, whether, if such increase would take place, which was problematical, it was wise to take so much of the capital of the country from the productive sources of industry, in order to put it into the hands of the exchequer? In his opinion, it would be much better to leave these three millions in the pockets of the people, than to apply them to the increase of the sinking fund, for the present he could by no means regard as a proper opportunity for such a proceeding, nor could he pretend to say when that opportunity would offer. The resolution of the right hon. gentleman with respect to economy, was not, it would be recollected among his original resolutions, and the motive for introducing it yesterday, could not be misunderstood. But, as the right hon. gentleman's resolution was a mere profession of economy, it could be easily appreciated by those who had any opportunity of judging of the sincerity of ministers upon that subject. He wished for a stronger pledge in favour of retrenchment and economy than that resolution contained, and therefore should vote for the amendment.
Mr. Primrosesaid, in explanation of what he had stated in the early part of the evening, and to avoid the charge of inconsistency that he would vote for the 3,000,000 l. of new taxes now proposed in consideration of the object he had in view, that of increasing the sinking fund, if no other means could be devised for attaining that important end. The principle he conceived to be unexceptionable. The conduct for which he most censured his majesty's ministers was, their putting off for so great a length of time the question of the resumption of cash payments by the Bank, which had occasioned many of the evils that pressed so heavily on the country.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, that all that his hon. friend's amendment proposed to establish was, that for the satisfaction of the country, every practicable degree of retrenchment and economy should be adopted, and until that adoption was determined upon, he, for one could not agree to any additional taxation. Without

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entering into the question between those who disapproved of, and those who supported the system of a sinking fund, he would maintain that the present was not a favourable opportunity for augmenting our taxes, with a view to the creation or increase of such a fund. He would ask any person conversant in commerce, whether any article, for some time back exported, would bring the same price abroad for which it was purchased in this country? or whether any article imported could find sale here for the price at which it was purchased abroad? Combining, then, these circumstances with the melancholy state of our population, how could the present be deemed a fit season for the imposition of new taxes? Nothing was more absurd than to suppose that government could create wealth; for that resulted alone from the usefully employed labour of the people. But it was in the power of the government to transfer wealth from one class of the people to another; and the effect of the measure under consideration would be to transfer wealth from the industrious part of the community to the stock-holders, for whose advantage the new sinking fund was to be created. Upon the subject of a sinking fund, he was aware that both Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox concurred; but neither, it was to be recollected, had had the advantage of experience. It was notorious, that ever since the adoption of Mr. Pitt's plan, the country never had had an efficient sinking fund. The only efficient sinking fund ever known in this country, was that established by sir Robert Walpole, and which amounted to 1,200,000 l. Here the learned member read extracts from pamphlets published by sir Robert Walpole, and Mr. Pulteney to show the important operation of a real sinking fund both concurring in the opinion, that the effect of such a fund would be rather to indispose the public creditor to press for the payment of his debt. Such, indeed, was the fact at the time those pamphlets were published in 1733, as appeared from the provisions of the South Sea company, and other claimants upon the public purse. But no such consequence had ever followed from the sinking fund established by Mr. Pitt, and with regard to the merit of which, he was authorised to state, that Mr. Fox had declared elsewhere a decided change of opinion. However, as to the principle of a sinking fund, he would not now enter into any discussion, but he
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would caution the House against any vote of new taxes upon a mere chimera. He would have no objection to the creation of a real sinking fund, if it were practicable to establish such a thing. But he did not think the present a favourable occasion for the attempt; and therefore he could not consent to impose fresh burthens upon the country, amidst all its accumulated misfortunes, merely with a view to any problematical good.
Mr. Callaghandeclared himself friendly to the principle of improving our income, and to the means proposed for that purpose. Those who had become the creditors of the state, on the understanding that the public debt should be reduced by a sinking fund, had a right to expect that the pledge given by the legislature for this purpose should be kept. In law and in equity they were entitled to the advantage of this fund, not in name but in reality. If he agreed, therefore, in the principle of increasing the efficiency of the sinking fund, he was no less friendly to the means by which it was to be done. The taxes proposed would most of them increase the income of the state without pressing on the consumer. The right hon. gentleman had proved this in the case of malt.
Mr. Frankland Lewisbegged leave to state the grounds of the opinion on which his vote would be founded, as he had not had an opportunity of doing so last night. The vote of last night pledged the committee to a declaration, that it was now expedient to raise a fixed sum in taxes every year to pay off the public debt to a specific amount. In proposing this question, the first thing to be considered was, whether this or the following session was the best to determine on the arrangement of a permanent financial peace establishment. In the present session, the question of the currency ought, in his opinion, to have been settled, and that of the finance peace establishment left to the next. In this manner the arrangement of the one might have aided that of the other, and they could not have come into collision. But he was free to allow, that there were many and strong reasons against delay. The speculation that was going forward—the agitation about loans—the falling and rising of the public stock with every rumoured scheme of finance, and the consequent effect upon the property of every man in the nation, afforded strong grounds for coming to a decision as soon as pos-

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sible, as they constituted evils of such magnitude that their removal could not be too soon attempted. As far, therefore, as the question of time was concerned, although he would have at first preferred the next session, he was not disposed to negative the resolution which fixed upon the present.—The next question was, should we have a real and effective sinking fund? The resolution did nothing but declare the fact on this subject; that we had properly no amount of sinking fund adequate to the reduction of our debt within any limited period, and that it would be proper to provide farther for a more rapid extinction of it. In this he was likewise disposed to concur. The third question was, as to the expediency of increasing the sinking fund by new taxes. It was necessary to provide a surplus revenue for this purpose; and he agreed that, though all taxes were an evil, there was no other mode of creating this surplus but by taxation. The only three modes of obtaining a sinking fund were—1st, reduction of expenditure by savings or retrenchments in our establishments: and this resource, though it had been carried to a considerable extent, was not pushed to its full limit; but even though it were, it would not produce the surplus necessary. 2. The increase in the produce of the taxes already imposed; this, likewise, appeared to offer no adequate resource. 3. A reduction of the amount of interest of the debt; but though this was contemplated in the report of the finance committee, by a conversion of the 5 per cents into a stock at a lower interest, it could not be looked to as a resource any more than the former. There was nothing left, then, but new taxes. The only question that remained was, what ought to be their amount? The resolution stated them at 3, thus making a sinking fund of 5 millions; but though he had listened last night to all the speakers on the opposite side, he could not learn the reason for fixing upon this exact sum. He would not at present enter minutely into the subject, but he would refer to the precedent of 1786, as a ground for his opinion, that new taxes ought only to be imposed to the amount of two millions, making a real efficient sinking fund of 4-millions. The interest of the debt was then 9 millions, and the sinking fund 1 million; the interest was now 29 millions, and a sinking fund of 4 millions would bear the like proportion to the debt.
Mr. Abercrombywished that the question of the currency had been settled this year, and the peace finance establishment with new taxes reserved for the next. Some embarrassment would be felt, as was contemplated by the secret committee, in the return to cash payments; and coupled with the new taxes, it would be impossible to separate the effects of the two measures, and to assign to each its due share in causing the pressure. In addition to this, it was to be recollected, that the great overtrading arising from the facilities which a paper currency afforded, when checked by the measures adopted respecting the Bank, would occasion many difficulties. These difficulties of course would be increased by the additional taxes proposed; and it was not unlikely that those who felt the pressure of them most severely, might ascribe to the one measure those evils which resulted chiefly from the other. Under all these circumstances, the more prudent course would have been to abstain from all new taxes in the present session. But the real question was, whether we were to have 5 millions or 2 millions of a sinking fund for the liquidation of the national debt; and he really could not discover on what principle those acted who preferred the larger sum, considering all the vacillation, difficulties, and dangers likely to be occasioned by measures affecting the trade of the country. With respect to the advantage of having this increase of the sinking fund at present, he would not give an opinion; because he was not sure of the capacity of the country to bear the additional burthens from which alone such an increase could arise; but if he was convinced that the country could bear the proposed increase of taxation, he should certainly prefer a sinking fund of 5 millions to a sinking fund of two millions. For these reasons, he thought it most prudent not directly to negative that proposal, but to take a course expressive of the opinion that this was not the proper time for carrying it into effect. He cordially concurred in the amendment.
Mr. H. Sumner,while he professed his hearty concurrence in all the resolutions, regretted that so considerable a part of the taxes proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer, were of a nature so immediately affecting the landed interest.
The question being put, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question, the House divided: Ayes, 186;

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Noes, 76. The resolution was then agreed to; as was also the seventh.

List of the Minority

Abercromby, hon. J.

Macleod, R.

Allen, J. H.

Milton, visc.

Althorp, visct.

Martin, J

Anson, hon. G.

Merest, J. W. D.

Aubrey, sir J

Mills, G.

Blandford, marq. of

Monck, sir C.

Barham, J. F.

Moore Peter

Barnett, J.

Newport, right hon. Sir, J.

Becher, W. W.

Belgrave lord

North, Dudley

Bernal, R.

Nugent, lord

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Ord, W.

Birch, J.

Osborne, lord F.

Brougham, H.

Parnell, sir H.

Byng, G.

Philips, G.

Calcraft, J.

Phillips, C. M.

Calvert, C.

Price, R.

Campbell, J.

Rickford, W.

Clifton, visc.

Ricardo, David

Curwen, J. C.

Ramsden, J. C.

Davies, T. H.

Rancliffe, lord

Denman, T.

Robarts, A.

Denison, W.

Robarts, W. T.

Duncannon, visc.

Rumbold, C.

Ebrington, visc.

Scarlett, J.

Ellice, E.

Sefton, earl of

Fazakerley, Nic

Smyth, J. H.

Grant, J. P.

Spencer, lord R.

Gordon, R.

Stewart, W.

Graham, Sandford

Webster, sir G.

Grenfell, Pascoe

Walpole, hon. G.

Griffiths, J. W.

Waithman, ald.

Guise, sir W.

Webbe, E.

Harcourt, J.

Western, C. C.

Harvey, D. W.

Whitbread, W. H.

Hill, lord A.

Wilkins, Walter

Honywood, W. P.

Wilson, sir R.

Hume, J.

Wood, ald.

Hutchinson, hn. C. H.

TELLERS.

Longman, G.

Macdonald, J.

Lloyd, J. M.

Ridley, sir M. W.