Commons Sitting of 17 December 1819

PENRYN BRIBERY BILL.
Sir Charles Burrell Sir Charles Burrell moved the order of the day, for receiving the report on the Penryn Bribery bill, with the view of postponing it to the 21st February next. This he did at the suggestion of several members, who wished him to wait till the Grampound bill came under the consideration of the House. He was not prepared to say that he had renounced his original intention with respect to Penryn; for in his opinion this case differed materially from that of Grampound. The district to which franchise was extended in the Penryn bill, contained a population of 20,000 souls. At the same time, however, he felt it his duty to comply with the request. He concluded with moving, that the report be received on Monday the 21 st of February next.
Mr. Wynnagreed that an advantage would be derived from delaying the consideration of this case till after the discussion on the Grampound bill. The present bill was free from one material objection to the Grampound bill; namely, the proposition for giving to the unconvicted voters of Grampound votes for the county. If there was one part of our representation which ought to be more sacred than another, it was that of the representation of counties. The principle of the Grampound bill went to put another class of voters on an equality with freeholders. There were now three bills in the House relating to boroughs in the same county. In Wales, four or five boroughs all contributed (not by delegation, as in Scotland) to return one member. It might be possible, in like manner, to class together the unconvicted voters of the different boroughs of which the district would not be greater than one of those in Wales.
Sir C. Monckwas happy, that in the projected alteration of the Penryn bill, the right to elect would be given to a district including such populous places as Falmouth and Penzance. There was no necessity for adhering rigorously to the same precedent, when the adherence would not be productive of the same be-
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nefit. He thought nothing could be more advisable than to deal with Penryn as boroughs under the same circumstances had been dealt with before. The imperfection in the manner in which they had hitherto proceeded with boroughs such as Penryn was, that in the hundred to which the franchise was extended, there were sometimes other boroughs, which by this means obtained a share in returning a number of members. Thus, for instance, Wooton Basset, in the county of Wilts, was in the hundred to which the franchise of Cricklade was extended. A person inhabiting a freehold house in Wooton Basset, had a vote for the two members of that borough, the two members for Cricklade, and the two members for the county, in all six members.
Mr. D. Gilbertobserved, that in many of the boroughs the right of returning the members was vested in the corporation, which could take no part in returning members for the hundred.
Mr. Sergeant Onslowobserved, that the circumstance of a person possessing a freehold in a town having a right to vote for both the town and county was by no means uncommon. If they acted, therefore, on the principle of excluding persons from a county vote, because he had already a vote in the hundred, the next step would be, to deprive those who had a vote in a town of their vote for the county. He protested against depriving any man of his franchise on speculative grounds. He was friendly to the principle adopted in the case of Shoreham.
The report was ordered to be received on Monday, the 21st February next, till which time the writ for the borough was. suspended.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Lord Althorpbrought in the Insolvent Debtors bill, and moved its first reading.
Mr. Calcraftwished to call the attention of the noble lord to a part of his speech on a former day, which, contrary to his intentions he was sure, had wounded the feelings of a most respectable individual, whom he had known for a number of years. He alluded to the late chief clerk of the Insolvent Debtors court.
Lord Althorpsaid, he was sorry that anything he had said should have wounded the feelings of the individual in question. He certainly did not intend to do so. In the course of the investigation before the, committee nothing came out which would

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warrant any imputation against him. He had stated that he was glad that his majesty's ministers had removed every officer of the court, because from the manner in which the court had been conducted, it had lost the confidence of the public, and could not go on. In stating this, however, he did not intend to throw out any imputation against the individual in question.
The bill was then read a first time, and the second reading was fixed for the 16th of February.

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES Bill
Lord Castlereagh Lord Castlereagh moved the order for the farther consideration of the report of the Newspaper Stamp Duties bill, for the purpose of re-committing it.
Mr. J. Smythsaid, he had that day seen a great many persons connected with the book trade, who were of opinion that their interests would be much affected by this bill. He hoped the noble lord would therefore allow full time for the consideration of so important a measure. The booksellers, notwithstanding the alterations which had been made, were still in the greatest alarm. He was willing to believe that it was not the intention of the noble lord to affix a stamp duty to certain publications respecting which their apprehensions were excited, but the bill as now worded would have the effect of doing so. It would require a day or two at least to examine the bill to see in what way it would operate. He wished to know from the noble lord whether time would be granted for the proper examination of this bill?
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he would consent to have the bill re-committed on Monday next. He did not think it would be advisable to fix a later day, as it was desirable that a measure of the kind should be discussed with the fullest attendance. In the interval between this and Monday, the bill might undergo the examination which gentlemen wished.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, it appeared to him that this was by far the most important of all the measures proposed to parliament, principally when considered as the foundation of future legislation. He put it, therefore, to the noble lord, whether there was any necessity for pressing it forward at present. It seemed to him to require the most mature consideration.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the principle of the bill seemed to his majesty's ministers to be of great importance. So far
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he agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman; but he candidly confessed, that if some measures were not taken to deliver the country from the abuses of the press, he thought the consequences would be pregnant with danger and calamity. All the changes introduced consisted in mitigating and narrowing the operation of the measure. If gentlemen opposite objected to the details, they might be discussed on Monday, but he had hoped that the principle would be debated this night.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that the principle of the bill was so involved and mixed up with the details, that it was impossible to discuss the principle till the details of the arrangement were known.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that after the arrangements were agreed to in the committee on Monday, the discussion on the principle might take place.
Mr. Broughamhoped that between this and Monday such alterations might be devised as would secure the interests of this trade, not merely for the sake of the trade itself, but for the sake of the community. His objection was chiefly directed to the principle of resorting to stamp duties, not as a means of revenue, but of prohibition of publication.
The bill was ordered to be recommitted on Monday.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred,
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the House had seen the abstracts of the estimates on the table. It had not yet been in his power to make out the usual detailed estimates for the year. At present his object was merely to move a vote of certain sums on account. After the recess the detailed estimates should be laid before the House in the usual form. The sum now required was nearly one million and a half, which included the expenses incurred by the call of out-pensioners, and the forming of them into royal veteran battalions, up to Christmas. The noble lord then moved—"That it is the opinion, of this committee that a sum not exceeding 900,000 l. be granted to his majesty, towards defraying the charge of his majesty's land forces, for service at home and abroad, excepting the regiments employed in Ireland and the territorial possessions of the East India company, for the year 1820."
Mr. Calcraftsaid, he should not press the discussion of the subject against the wish of the House, but it did appear strange, that when 10 or 12,000 men were added to a standing army in time of peace, and that standing army too the largest that ever was known in the country at any similar time, the noble lord should pass it over as an ordinary matter of business which called for no explanation. Though he was not prepared, under all the circumstances of the country to say that he should peremptorily oppose the calling out of the pensioners, yet he thought it the duty of members, to awaken the jealousy of the country to such proceedings He hardly knew, however, how to begin a discussion on which he should be ready to enter, as the noble lord had given no reasons for the vote. He saw too, among the votes, a sum for the military college. He, for one, should object to that vote at that moment, as the utility of that application of money was very questionable He had rather that the noble lord should take a sum on account generally, without specifying particular heads, as parliament would then be pledged to no principle except, perhaps, that of the increase of the army, by calling out the pensioners.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, the House had at the beginning of the session been made acquainted with the increase of the army. He had proposed a vote generally for the service of one quarter; and he should have no objection to propose a vote for the whole on account, without specifying particular services, with the exception of that for the military college and asylum, which did not pass through the hands of the paymaster-general, and which it was from that reason necessary; to have under a separate head. But if any gentleman wished to put an end to the military college, it would not certainly be proposed to abolish it before the 24th of March, and it was only till, that time that the sum to be voted would supply the establishment. The expense of the college was less than it had been last year, as reductions were in progress. It would be desirable, too, that the measure of calling out the pensioners should be recognized by a vote.
Mr. Calcraftintimated that he should leave the subject for discussion at a future period.
Colonel Daviessaid, he had the strongest objections to the military college. He
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wished to know what the increase of 100,000 l. on the charge for volunteer corps arose from? It was to be observed, that though not more than half the items of the estimates were brought forward, there was an increase on them of half a million beyond the last year.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, the number of volunteer and yeomanry corps had been increased. The exact number he could not state, as the services of those corps were accepted, not by the War office, but by the home department. The increase on the estimates was merely on the volunteer service, and from the charges of calling out the pensioners.
Colonel Daviessaid, that after all the professions and pledges of economy and retrenchment which the House had heard last session from his majesty's ministers, he had hoped they would have made some sincere and effectual effort to redeem their promises. It now appeared that he had been deceived in such an expectation. He therefore embraced that occasion of giving notice, that he should on some night immediately after the recess, move for a committee to inquire into the whole of the army expenditure. In the state in which the country was placed, it was their duty to look to every possible means of lessening the public expenses.
The vote was then agreed to.

MISDEMEANORS BILL.
The report of this bill was brought up.
Lord Ebringtonsaid, that as he had opposed all the other new measures which had been proposed to the House, he was glad to state that the clause in this bill which limited the time for prosecuting ex officio informations, met with his warm approbation.
Mr. Denman, said, he considered the bill as an improvement in the law of England. Though he was not desirous of clogging its progress by the addition of clauses, he should mention, that as the law now stood, every prosecutor on a misdemeanor had the power, without cause assigned, of removing the cause by certio rari to the King's-bench, by which process it often happened, that if the defendant was found guilty, he had to pay much more for expenses than any fine imposed on him by the court. Now, as the defendant was to be prohibited from removing the case, without showing cause, the prosecutor should in like manner be restrained. Unless some gentlemen of

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greater weight took the matter up, he should bring it before the House. He suggested too, that it would be an improvement on the bill if the certiorari was not to issue without a notice to the opposite party.
Mr. Bernalsuggested that the officers of the Crown should, in the case of ex-officio information, be allowed to enter a nolle prosequi, without putting the defendant to the trouble of an application to the court.
Mr. G. Lambsaid, that having originally put the question respecting the limiting of ex-officio informations, which had been so satisfactorily answered by the clause of the bill before them he felt it his duty to state his approbation of the alteration which had been made. He trusted, too, that this would be sent out to the country as the only permanent measure, and that the other bills would be considered as medicines beneficial only for the moment.
The Attorney Generalinserted as an amendment after the words directing an application to the court, the words "free of all expense to the party applying." Mr. Denman said it had been doubted (though he believed it applied to Wales) whether it applied to that country. The Attorney General said it certainly did. The report was agreed to.