Commons Sitting of 16 December 1819

MANCHESTER MEETING.—PETITIONS OF MESSRS. REDFORD, BOWKER, BARLOW, AND LEES.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he held in his hands a petition from a person of the name of Thomas Redford. He had not any acquaintance with this person, nor could he vouch for the accuracy of the statements in the petition, but it was couched in respectful language.
The petition was brought up and read. It purported to be the petition of Thomas Redford, of Middleton, in the county palatine of Lancaster, hatter; and sat forth,
"That for the purpose of agreeing to an address to his royal highness the Prince Regent, and of adopting such resolutions as might seem fit, the petitioner, with many others of his fellow townsmen, attended a meeting at Manchester, on the 16th day of August in the present year, which meeting was legally convened by public advertisement according to the form prescribed by a law recently passed in the House, and sanctioned by the other branch of the legislature, as well as by the executive power of the land; but though guarded by the solemn enactments of the legislature, though acting under, and confiding in, the stern mandate of the law, which saith to the ruthless and violent, 'so far shalt thou go with impunity, and no further,' though rudeness or insult had not been known that day, by the petitioner or his neighbours, nor outrage expected, yet, in the very commencement of their peaceable and constitutional proceedings, they were interrupted by an armed force, denominated the Manchester Yeomanry Cavalry, professing an extraordinary share of loyalty, which in the humble judgment of the petitioner is only to be found in a due observance of the law; by men thus circumstanced, disguised in military accoutrements, and with implements of death in their hands, was this sacred enactment broken, and the blood of his majesty's liege subjects shed without cause without warnings of any kind, and apparently without remorse; for be it known to the House, that the men disguised as aforesaid, rushed without delay into the crowd, cutting and bruising with their sabres, and trampling under the hoofs of their horses, the miserable victims of their fury, who were unable, through the intense pressure, to open a way before them,

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and after they had secured several persons as prisoners who were upon the hustings, even after this professed object of their interference had been accomplished, they suddenly wheeled round upon the astonished and defenceless multitude, and with a rage violent as it was unmanly and unprovoked, commenced anew the work of terror and destruction: in this moment of danger the petitioner was driven by the crowd towards some timber which lay upon the field, where, hemmed in on all sides by the military, and unable to escape, he received from one of the Manchester yeomanry Cavalry, named Alexander Oliver, a severe cut by the sabre, which separated his shoulder-blade, and penetrated deep into his back; that for this violent outrage and breach of the laws, the petitioner has not been able to bring the delinquent to the bar of his country, in consequence of the refusal of the local magistracy to receive depositions respecting the aforesaid transactions; therefore, to the justice and to the humanity of the House the petitioner now appeals, and humbly though earnestly, claims from it that indemnification which the law would award, but which is vainly sought for in the courts, and that protection from similar outrages to which every Englishman is entitled, but which the petitioner is convinced can only be obtained by the prompt interference of the House, in investigating the inhuman transactions of which he complains."
Mr. Lambtonpresented a petition from Thomas Bowker of Crawshawfold, in the county Palatine of Lancaster, setting forth:
"That on the 16th day of August last, the petitioner attended a public meeting at Manchester, which meeting the petitioner at that time supposed, and still believes, to have been perfectly legal, but that, notwithstanding its legality, and the decorum which prevailed, it was violently attacked and dispersed by the Manchester Yeomanry Cavalry, acting under the local magistracy; that in the confusion which ensued the petitioned was throw down and trampled upon by the horses, and by the crowd who were flying in terror from their attack, whereby he was shockingly bruised in many parts of his body and his limbs, and he had no sooner recovered from his perilous situation than he attempted, as well as his disabled state would permit him, to retire from the scene of danger and confusion, but had not proceeded farther than a street near
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by, the name of which is to him at present unknown, than he was attacked by a foot soldier whom he believes belonged to the 88th regiment, and received a severe wound in the belly from a thrust of his bayonet, at the same time that another soldier of the same regiment made a desperate push at the petitioner, which he avoided by throwing himself on the ground; that for these severe bruises and wounds, whereby the petitioner was prevented for a considerable time from earning his livelihood, and from the effects of which he is not yet recovered, he has received no indemnification, and trusting in the wisdom and humanity of the House, which cannot see the liberties of Englishmen wantonly violated, nor their lives put in jeopardy, he solicits such interference on the part of the House as shall bring the authors and executors of the above outrage to the bar of his country."
The petition having been brought up and read,
Mr. Lambtonsaid, he regretted extremely the troubling the House with any thing relating to himself. But in consequence of what was stated the other night by a noble lord, he had written immediately to his agent. It would be in the recollection of that House, that the noble lord had stated he was informed that his (Mr. L.'s) agent had dismissed several individuals from his mines in consequence of their being radicals. By a letter which he had this day received from Durham, his agent positively assured him that no radicals had been dismissed from his employment, that he was astonished such reports should be propagated; that the men were never more peaceable than at the present moment.
Sir Robert Wilsonpresented a petition from Thomas Barlow, of little Heaton, in the county Palatine of Lancaster, weaver, setting forth,
"That being at a public meeting which was legally convened at Manchester in the aforesaid county on the 16th of August last, and which said meeting was assembled in an orderly and peaceable manner, when it was assailed by an armed force, styled the Manchester Yeomanry Cavalry, and thrown into great confusion thereby, and a number of lives lost by pressure, by being trampled upon, and by wounds inflicted by the sabres of the yeomanry, aforesaid, and in the horrid confusion which ensued, the direct road of the petitioners retreat was obstructed by one of the said

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yeomanry, to whose humanity he appealed for that forbearance which in the day of battle himself had never refused even to the enemies of his country, but which, as a sailor and an Englishman, he now asked for in vain; for in attempting to pass the person aforesaid, the petitioner received from him a severe cut upon his head, followed by a lunge at his body, which with difficulty he parried from him with his arm, having no stick or weapon of any kind; that for this outrage and attempt upon his life the petitioner has not received indemnification, nor is he able to identify the person of his assailant, in consequence of his being disguised in the clothes and accoutrements of a soldier; wherefore the petitioner humbly prays, That the House would take such measures as may bring the authors, abettors, and executors of this unmanly outrage to justice."
Sir Francis Burdettpresented a petition from Robert Lees, of Oldham, the father of Robert Lees, a young man who died in consequence of the wounds he received on the 16th of August, at Manchester, chiefly complaining of the manner in which the inquest on the body of his son had been conducted by the coroner, and of the impossibility of bringing the persons guilty of the violence by which his son lost his life, to trial.
Mr. Blakesaid, it did not appear that any application had been made for a criminal information against the magistrates who were said to have refused to interfere. The petitioner therefore had not done what he ought to have done. The conduct of the coroner was complained of. It appeared from what took place in the court of King's-bench, in consequence of the application for a mandamus, that the inquest was one of the most illegal proceedings which ever took place—as soon as the coroner perceived he had done wrong, he did what he could to redress that wrong.
Mr. Broughamsaid, the hon. gentleman was quite mistaken as to the particulars of the proceedings in the Court of King's-bench, with regard to the inquest. The court entertained the motion for a rule to show cause why a mandamus should not be issued to the coroner, and the only reason why the mandamus was not issued was, that the coroner came forward and stated his own irregularity as an excuse for not proceeding further with the inquest. The coroner had acted illegally
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—he did not mean to say wilfully so—but he had acted illegally, first in proceeding with an inquest, which had been sworn by his deputy, and without having seen the dead body, and then adjourning the inquest for seven weeks. His own irregular proceeding rendered it impossible to proceed with that inquest. The coroner jumped at this. "O," says he, "if I have acted illegally, I shall stop here, and not go on any farther." The coroner himself had effected this—he jumped at it—and then they were to be told that the people were extravagant in their demands, when they were not satisfied with this mockery of all justice! He was always disposed to speak with respect of the courts of justice; but when he saw that called justice which was a mockery of alt justice; when he saw a bare-faced collusion like that which had long been exhibited in the face of the country, when he saw a coroner questioning his own irregularity, and availing himself of his own breach of the law, to escape from the necessity of executing the law, he could not think of dignifying such a mockery of the people of England with the name of justice. They might depend on it, the more they probed these disgraceful transactions, the more infamous they would appear. Gentlemen might wish to stifle all inquiry; but they would never succeed in stifling the discontent which existed, till they inquired both into the proceedings of the 16th, and the proceedings of the coroner. He did not approve of the transactions of the 16th of August, but he was convinced that not half the agitation and disgust had been excited in the country by those transactions, as by some which unfortunately had followed them; the first, the unhappy fatality (for he blamed no one) by which the grand jury for the county of Lancaster threw out the bills which were presented to them. For if there had been a trial before a jury of the county, and one of the twelve judges of the land, not before a Lancashire magistrate, or an Oldham inquest, whatever the result had been, the country would have been satisfied with it. That was the first unfortunate circumstance; the second, was the conduct of the coroner at the different examinations, coupled with the subsequent proceedings at Warrington, and the ultimate adjournment of that inquest, as if with a view to prepare the way for putting an end to the inquiry altogether, in the way

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which was afterwards pursued: these facts, he feared, had made the breach between the people and the constituted authorities, if not irreparable, at least infinitely wider than it had been before. It was said by an hon. gentleman, that there were false statements in the petition, but this was no objection to the reception of the petition, nay, even in the present practice, it seemed to be no objection to a speech. When it was necessary to raise a false alarm, there was no objection made to a statement, that 100,000 men were in arms, out of a population of only 150,000 men, women and children, altogether. The physical impossibility was not thought of. It was rather deemed an argument to heighten the alarm. What! it was said, in so narrow a district as that between the Tyne and Weir, in a district with so few people, good God—100,000 men in arms! Then afterwards, in a place which he could not name, it was said by one noble lord, that the colliers on the Tyne were all in arms, to the number of 16,000. Another noble person immediately took up the subject, for both seemed on the occasion respondere parati, and said "yes, they are all in arms, not 16,000, but 16,600 exactly." [A laugh.] But now it turned out on the statement of the hon. member for Newcastle, that the whole of the colliers in the district barely amounted to between 15 and 16,000: so that not only more than the whole male population were armed above ground, but more than the whole population were armed under ground also. The hon. member for Durham had also told them, that out of the whole of the colliers, his own amounting to more than 1,000, were not in arms. But it seemed that in the fervour and enthusiasm of alarm, gentlemen did not care what statements were made, or what statements were believed; it reminded him of the Hudibrastic couplet, so often quoted—
"Certes, the pleasure is as great
Of being cheated as to cheat."
The petition was then read. It purported to be the petition of Robert Lees, of Oldham, in the county palatine of Lancaster, cotton spinner; and sat forth,
"That the petitioner's son John Lees, a youth twenty-two years of age, having attended the meeting held at Manchester, on the 16th of August last, was, as the petitioner is led to believe, without any just cause or provocation, most inhumanly attacked and cut by the yeomanry cavalry, and afterwards most unmercifully beaten
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by the clubs or batons of the police and special constables, and also trampled upon by the horses of the cavalry, whereby he was so much injured that he was from that time incapable of attending to his ordinary employment, and lingered in pain and debility until the night of the 6th of September following when he died; that the surgeon who attended the petitioner's son having certified that his death was occasioned by violence, several householders in Oldham and the neighbouring townships were served, late in the evening of the 7th of September, with summonses from the coroner of the district, to attend the next morning, at half-past ten o'clock, to serve as jurors on an inquest to be held on the body of the petitioner's son, and, at the time appointed, the said jurors assembled, and were met by a person named Battye, who attended as deputy for the said coroner for the purpose of inquiring into the cause of the death of the petitioner's son; and, having sworn the jury, he attended with them to take a view of the body, but finding that several witnesses had arrived from Manchester to give evidence upon the said inquiry, he refused to proceed in the inquest; and having adjourned the same for three hours, he at the expiration of that time further adjourned the same until the 10th day of the same month, when the said Battye promised that either Mr. Ferrand, his employer, or Mr. Milne, a neighbouring coroner, should certainly attend and proceed in the investigation; that, on the next day, a surgeon attended by the direction of the said Mr. Battye, to open and examine the body of the petitioner's son, and he was then allowed to be interred; that, on the 10th day of September, the jury again assembled; but, although Mr. Milne attended, he refused to interfere, in the business as he said it did not belong to his district, and the inquest was farther adjourned until the 25th day of the same month; and during this interval some of the Manchester newspapers inserted the vilest falsehoods to depreciate the reputation of the deceased, with a view as the petitioner believes, to extinguish every feeling of sympathy, for his fate; that, on the 25th of September, Mr. Ferrand attended, and after swearing the jury, and ascertaining from them that they had all seen the body, he proceeded to examine witnesses; but in the course of the investigation he adjourned several times for

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days together, without any reasonable or probable cause, and merely, as the petitioner believes, to harass and tire out the witnesses, who came day after day a considerable distance to give testimony; that in detailing his complaint to the House, the petitioner exceedingly regrets he should be under the necessity of impeaching the conduct of any individual, especially one employed in the administration of justice; but the petitioner is compelled by a regard to truth to declare that according to all the information he had received from numerous individuals who witnessed the proceedings of the inquest the coroner throughout evinced a manifest partiality for the magistrates and yeomanry cavalry of Manchester, to whose illegal and violent conduct the petitioner attributes the premature death of his son; that, among other things, the said Mr. Ferrand refused to allow the witnesses to give in evidence numerous acts of violence and atrocity committed by the said Manchester yeomanry upon the people so assembled at the meeting in St. Peter's Field, or to state the names of the said yeomanry, immediately before they entered the field, evincing a determination to perpetrate the violent acts of which the petitioner complains: that the said Mr. Ferrand prohibited the reading of the acts of parliament passed for the regulation of the conduct of coroners, whereby all coroners were directed to receive the species of evidence rejected by him on this occasion; that, in the progress of the investigation, the solicitor employed by the petitioner inquired of the coroner whether or no he had seen the body of the petitioner's son, to which inquiry he peremptorily and repeatedly refused to give any answer; but sometime afterwards he went secretly and clandestinely, in the middle of the night, and had the grave of the deceased opened for the purpose of seeing the body; by which extraordinary proceeding the town of Oldham, and the surrounding neighbourhood, were in some degree alarmed and agitated, whereupon the coroner stated that he found it necessary to adjourn his court to Manchester to pursue the investigation; that, at length on the 13th of October, when the evidence on both sides was, as the petitioner believes, brought very nearly to a close, the coroner, without offering even a pretext for such an unparalleled proceeding, adjourned the inquest until the 1st day of December instant; that the pe-
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titioner believes, from the evidence before the said coroner, that a verdict of wilful murder must and would have been given against many individuals engaged in the cruel attack before mentioned; and the petitioner is informed, that Mr. Ferrand the coroner, stated that he had no doubt such a verdict would be pronounced if he allowed the jury to come to a decision; and the petitioner has good reason to believe that the last mentioned adjournment was made solely with a view to screen and protect the delinquents who were likely to be affected by the verdict of the jury; that it being understood the said Mr. Ferrand, intended still further to adjourn the said inquest, an application was made in the last term, by the petitioner's solicitors, for a rule to show cause why a writ of mandamus should not issue to be directed to the said Mr. Ferrand, directing him to proceed forthwith in the said inquisition; but the said Mr. Ferrand showed cause against such a writ being granted, and the court discharged the rule, as the petitioner understands, on the ground that Mr. Ferrand had probably rendered the proceedings of the said inquest invalid and nugatory by neglecting to view the body at the same time with the jury, that the said Mr. Ferrand, gladly availing himself of, and seizing with avidity the suggestion as to the illegality of the proceedings, wholly neglected to meet the jury on the 1st instant as he had appointed by his own adjournment, but, his clerk, Mr. Battye, stood at the door of the inn, and told the jury as they arrived that their attendance was no farther required, and that they might go about their business, and thus has terminated the proceedings on which alone the petitioner relied to bring the guilty before a superior court of judicature for trial, and ultimately justice; that it has been intimated, as the petitioner is informed, that the course of justice was not impeded by the proceedings of the before-mentioned inquest being set aside, because it was still open for the petitioner to proceed, either by obtaining a writ directing the magistrates of the county to take the inquisition, or by indictment before the grand jury, but, independent of the delay which must result by adopting either of these modes, the petitioner humbly submits to the House, whether it is not mocking his already agonized and harassed feelings, to refer him for justice to the very persons against whom he com-
§

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plains, or to a body who are likely to be composed of their relatives and intimate friends, especially when it is considered that the prejudiced opinion of a similar body has been already evinced by their throwing out bills of indictment against several of the Manchester yeomanry for maliciously cutting down the unarmed and unoffending people on the melancholy 16th August, and by their extra judicial denunciation transmitted to government at the very last assizes held for the county of Lancaster, wherein, after assuming that, the people are misguided and disaffected, they impute to the lower classes in general, "that their object is to reverse the orders of society, and by force to seize and divide the landed property of the country among themselves:'' that the petitioner, considering that he had no immediate legal resources to bring to justice the authors of his son's death, has presumed to lay a simple statement of the facts before the House; and he therefore most earnestly supplicates the House to listen to the facts he has detailed, and' take them into immediate consideration, so that he may have the consolation to find that his grievances are heard, and that the House will afford him that redress which he cannot obtain or expect from the legal authorities of the country."
The several petitions were ordered to be printed.

MOTION RESPECTING MR. OWEN'S PLAN.
Sir W. De Crespigny, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, rose for the purpose of moving that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the plan of Mr. Owen for ameliorating the condition, of the lower classes. He trusted that the same spirit of conciliation which had marked the debate of Tuesday last would be manifested on this occasion. Labouring under severe indisposition, he brought this question forward with increased embarrassment. It had been his hope that some hon. gentleman more conversant with the subject would have introduced it to the consideration of the House, and appeared in the character of an advocate for his distressed and suffering fellow-countrymen. Under these circumstances, the House, he doubted not, would extend to him its kindness and indulgence. He could assure it, that he would endeavour to contract his observations into the narrowest compass. The question was rather one of humanity than
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of political reasoning; and if he should be so fortunate as to obtain the concurrence of the other side of the House, he should hail the circumstance as the harbinger of better times. The interposition of the legislature was most imperiously demanded. General poverty must produce discontent, and general discontent led often to revolt. It was necessary that the higher classes should condescend to inquire into the miseries of the poor with a view to the effectual alleviation of their distress. He saw no other means of preventing the country from being involved in bloodshed and confusion. The plan which he had to recommend would, in his opinion, prove, if adopted, beneficial for the purposes he had stated. All that was required by its friends and supporters was, that it should be submitted to experiment. Let it not be said, he implored the House, that they were prodigal in furnishing the means of destroying mankind, but were resolute not to listen to any schemes for their preservation. There were some, he knew, who, on the study of half an hour, pronounced that to be visionary which was deemed practicable and useful by a man, who had devoted to the inquiry the labour and consideration of thirty years. He called upon such persons to produce a better plan, before they condemned that which he was about to recommend. It was a most important subject for the attention of the House, to investigate the consequences arising from that mechanism which had within the last few years so extensively superseded human labour. To him it appeared, that mechanism should always be made subservient to human labour. The events of the last 30 years had made a change in the internal policy of the country absolutely necessary—and the question was, whether it should take place, step by step, by reason, or be brought about by prejudices and ignorance, or, perhaps, through the convulsion of revolution. Under the present system, the unemployed poor fed on the labour of the industrious, communicated the bad habits acquired in idleness, to the general mass of the poor, amalgamated with them, and taught them their vices. The only remedy for this evil was, the prevention of the mischief at the root. One part of Mr. Owen's plan, to which he wished particularly to direct the attention of the House, was the system of education which it embraced; for education, it could not be denied, was the

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foundation of all virtue and order in society. He had seen the effects of it in New Lanark, and should never forget to his dying day the impression which it made on his mind. The children were there instructed in those principles which were calculated to make them useful and excellent members of society. That which most struck his mind, and which could scarcely be credited by those who had not witnessed it, was, that the education of infants was begun in this establishment at the early age of two years. He had seen at New Lanark upwards of 100 children, on a large plot of ground, engaged in various kinds of amusements, each contributing its share to the comfort and advantage of the whole; there was among them no mark of malevolence or quarrel; they were vying in acts of kindness to one another. He saw them afterwards at school, some engaged in their letters, and others at more advanced stages of improvement. From thence they were instructed in the reading of the Bible, and taught the duties which they owed to God, to their parents, and to themselves. When the hours of amusement and those of instruction were ended, he had seen them going to their little labours with an alacrity which was really astonishing. He trusted the House would allow him to read a few of the letters which he had received on this subject. The hon. bart. then read the following letter, which he said he had received by the post of the preceding day:—"Sir William; Having deliberately considered Mr. Owen's plan, I am of opinion, that there is not any proposition yet made for the improvement of the morals and general condition of the country, worthy of a comparison with it; and I am induced thus to intrude my sentiments on you, to propose a measure which may be likely, not only to secure its trial, but its general adoption. It may perhaps be your intention to show the benefits of such a plan, and to move for a parliamentary grant, for the purpose of trying the experiment. However favourable the general opinion may be, yet in the present feeble state of the revenue, I am fearful there may be a difficulty in obtaining the grant; and should that not be the case, yet only one establishment would, by way of trial, be produced. I, however, consider it unnecessary that the country should wait whilst another experiment be tried. In addition to the plain reason of the things, the experiment has
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been tried with the greatest success at New Lanark. I should therefore at once propose a bill, which should have the effect of rendering any application for a public grant unnecessary, and giving more facility to an immediate application of the plan on a general scale, as follows:—
"A bill to enable parishes, at a general (not a select) meeting, to make a permanent rate on the property, and to take up money on the security of such rate, for the purpose of raising an establishment on Mr. Owen's plan. To enable two, three, or four small parishes to unite for that purpose, each parish to have an interest in, and to derive a benefit from the establishment, in proportion to its amount of rate or contribution. The rates so mortgaged to be applied quarterly in the discharge of the interest, and the reduction of the principal money so borrowed, until the same be discharged. To enable lords of manors, and the parishioners, to sell and convey waste and commonable lands for such purpose with such other clauses as the wisdom of parliament may devise. I see by a little pamphlet which lately fell in my way, and which I enclose, that 96,000 l. are sufficient to found an establishment for 1,200 persons; and I lately saw in the public prints, that Mr. Owen considered an establishment for 1,000 more advantageous than for a greater or less number, and that would require 80,000 l., the interest of which would be 4,000 l. for the first year, and as much less every succeeding year, as the principal sum should be reduced. As there is plenty of unemployed capital in the kingdom, I think the money would easily be obtained, and it would be much more creditable to capitalists (and more beneficial to the country) to lend their money on such security, than to place it in the funds of other nations. In the neighbourhood of Mr. Ricardo, there is plenty of commonable land, and the poor are very numerous; the measure would therefore be peculiarly beneficial in that district, and, although no alarmist, yet I am of opinion that the safety of property in a great measure depends more on an immediate attention to the plan of Mr. Owen, than on any coercive measures. I remain with the greatest respect, &c.,
"Cirencester, Dec. 14. Jos. MOUNTAIN."
The letter also contained some calculations as to the time when the sum borrowed might be repaid, and the manner of repaying it, with which he did not

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feel it necessary to trouble the House. The next letter he would read, was from the bishop of Chester. His lordship "approved of a plan which would give to the poor an interest in the better cultivation of the land, and stated that he had tried the experiment by letting out from 70 to 80 acres to poor peasants, at about half an acre to each. The result was, that the lands so given were well cultivated, even with that time which the peasant could bestow after his usual daily labour. One of the great advantages of this plan was, the creation of a feeling of independence among the peasantry—a feeling which could not be too much cultivated, as it rendered them averse to any application to the poor laws; and in the instance alluded to, relief from the poor-rates was not sought by any of the peasants so engaged." If the House, in the present situation of the country, turned, its back upon any plan which had for its immediate object the relief of the lower classes of the people, they would excite a general spirit of disaffection and discontent. He trusted, therefore, the noble lord would not show himself averse from this inquiry; there could be no mischief in it, for if, upon examination, the plan was found to be inefficient, it might be abandoned. It might not be acceptable as a whole, but it should be recollected, that there was no flower of the forest from which the industry of the bee did not extract some honey. He might, if he did not fear to occupy too much of the time of the House, go on reading to eternity the letters which he had received from various parts of the country in favour of this plan. He, however, should only trouble the House with the reading of one more. He then read another letter in favour of the plan, which described the great advantages that might result from it, by the practice which it would encourage, of spade cultivation. A gentleman in the neighbourhood of Newcastle had proved that by this mode of cultivation, the produce of land had been raised to 7 or 8 quarters per acre. Before he submitted his motion, he begged to make one observation further. At the period when Adam Smith wrote his treatise on the Wealth of Nations, the great object was to increase the wealth of the country. This object had been since achieved by the increase of machinery, so as almost to increase the production of some articles much beyond consumption. Now,
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Mr. Owen's plan, to remedy this—to render the production of the necessaries of life fully adequate to the increase of population—would effect a reorganization, and a remoralizing of the lower classes, which there was no man of virtue who would not, he was persuaded, be most glad to see. He concluded by moving, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the nature of the plan proposed by Robert Owen, esq., and to report there on: and how far the same, or any part thereof, may be rendered available for ameliorating the condition of the labouring classes of the community, or for affording beneficial employment of the poor, by an improved application of the sums raised for their relief."
Lord Archibald Hamiltonseconded the motion. He was so well acquainted with the practical effect of Mr. Owen's plan, and with the great distress which existed in that part of the country near which his establishment was situated, and particularly he so well knew the anxiety which existed among the great body of those who were so distressed to have the plan inquired into, that he conceived the House ought to take the matter into consideration. At the same time that he asserted this, he did not mean to give his support to those numerous theories which had been founded upon Mr. Owen's plan. He saw, however, that a great part of it had produced an excellent effect, and he conceived that one ground why it was entitled to an examination. He did not look upon the present motion as one which went to embrace the whole of Mr. Owen's plan (which he feared, if taken up in a national or general view, would be attended with too great an expense), but to extract and separate the useful parts of it from those numerous and extensive projects with which it was combined. He would support the motion, in consequence of the good effects which he understood to have resulted from some of Mr. Owen's exertions, and from the feeling which he was aware existed among the poorer classes, that a trial of it might be made with advantage to them. One thing had resulted from the operation of this plan at New Lanark—that it had united large bodies of human beings in the strongest bonds of kindness and affection towards each, other; in such a manner indeed as he believed was never seen or known before. This was a strong reason with him in support of the inquiry, and he thought that

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inquiry alone was sought by the motion. He would strongly recommend the reference of the subject to a committee, to which it should be understood that every thing eligible should be submitted, and that the House should not be troubled with any details of improvement, except such as should appear in the report the committee might finally agree upon.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that he was anxious to state the grounds upon which he was disposed to vote for the present motion, without being understood in any degree to support the general principles with which it was connected. In the first place he thought, that in the present distressed state of the country, that plan which proposed to alleviate such distress should be very wild and exceptionable, indeed, against which the House should peremptorily shut its ears. It was no doubt among the misfortunes belonging to the distress of the people, that they were too ready to attend to any visionary scheme that promised them relief; that they were disposed, as it might be said, to catch at straws, in the hope of saving themselves from sinking. This was, however, too generally the consequence of popular calamity. But parliament should be guarded, not to give the sanction of its high authority to any visionary project, because that sanction might do considerable mischief, especially in this way, that if such an impracticable plan were recommended by the House, that recommendation would weaken its power of carrying into effect any plan of less extent, but more practicability, as the people would naturally be disposed to say—"What comparison do the advantages of this plan bear to the prospects held out by the project of Mr. Owen?" This was, therefore, with him one reason why the House should look with extreme caution to any of those measures which were proposed in the present shape. At the same time he did not wish that the House should reject all inquiry on the subject before them. He was desirous not to be understood as meaning to agree to Mr. Owen's plan. He conceived the theory on which it was founded to be wholly erroneous. It was founded upon a principle which he denied—that of the increase of population being a benefit to the country. On the contrary, he had no hesitation in stating, that the excess of population was one of the great causes of the distress which at present afflicted the country. Yet
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this proposition, which, from the best consideration which he had been able to give to the subject, he was fully prepared to maintain was quite discarded by the theory of Mr. Owen. But it was amongst the most melancholy malpractices of the low part of the press, to depreciate this, which was the soundest principle of political economy. Nay, the worst expedients were used to calumniate the writers by whom that principle was mainly supported, although among those writers were to be found men of the most exalted morals, of the purest views, of the soundest intellect, and even of the most humane feelings. An endeavour was made to raise an outcry against those writers, principally upon the ground, forsooth, that they proposed, to interfere with the main comfort of human life, by deprecating early marriages. But was it not incumbent upon any man who had enlightened views of philanthropy, or even a sense of common justice, to dissuade people from imprudent marriages—from forming connexions which they had not the means of subsisting? Could any thing serve more to aggravate the distress or mortify the feeling of man than the collection of a family for which he was incompetent to provide? Yet against the writers who sought to guard society against this great evil, the utmost obloquy was directed. Nay, an attempt was made to excite a clamour against the men who had the wisdom to devise, and the manliness to support, that which was agreeable to the soundest principle of political economy. The present was not, however, the time in which he thought it advisable to propose the adoption, or to enter into the discussion of that to which he had devoted a great deal of his time and attention, and which he deemed the true radical remedy upon the subject of population; for if a plan to remedy this evil were now brought forward, there was reason to apprehend, from the disturbed state of the public mind, that an outcry might be raised against it which would be but too likely to interfere with the usefulness, and prove detrimental to the interest of the plan itself. The proposition of such a plan must therefore be deferred to some calm period which would be more suitable for deliberate and candid consideration. But to return to Mr. Owen's plan—although he differed from the theory upon which that plan was founded, especially upon the subject of population, and thought it

1197
would increase the evil of which it was the ostensible remedy, he still agreed with the hon. baronet who brought forward the motion, and the noble lord by whom it was seconded, that there were certain parts of that plan peculiarly entitled to the consideration of the House. He meant especially upon the subject of education. The system proposed and acted upon by Mr. Owen in training infant children, before they were susceptible of what was generally called education, was deserving of the utmost attention. This indeed was the sound part of Mr. Owen's plan, and agreeable to the wisest principles. By all means then, he would say, let the House appoint a committee to inquire into the means by which those parts of Mr. Owen's plan, against which no objections could be made, might best be put in general practice. That which was wild or visionary might be slighted; but the useful and the practicable ought not to be discarded. But with respect to education he must say, that the assistance of government or parliament was not so essential to its advancement: as the interests of that subject might be very safely trusted to the public spirit and private benevolence of the country. This, indeed, he found to be the case from his own observation, with regard to the education of children taken from their parents, who were thus enabled to pursue their own industry. But he had had some experience upon this subject, where education alone was given to children without any food or clothing, and where children were taught moral, attentive and cleanly habits at that period of life when curiosity, the great spring and element of all education, was most active and ardent—when in consequence, that which at another period of life would have been felt as a burthen, was enjoyed as a pleasure. Thus the children were educated while the parents, or at least the mother, who would have been otherwise obliged to stay at home and take care of them, was released and left at liberty to work. This system then was useful, not only to the children but to the parents, where they were disposed to industry. But the training up of infant children was in every view a point of great importance. He had given this subject a considerable degree of attention, and the experience of several years strengthened him in the opinion which he had been led to form on it. He had seen in Switzerland an establishment, the plan of Mr. Fellenberg for
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infant education, carried on with excellent effects. That gentleman's plan was, however, better suited to an agricultural district, where the population were scattered, than to a manufacturing town, where the population was crowded together. For Mr. Fellenberg took the children to his school both night and day, thus separating them from their parents. Mr. Owen proceeded upon the same principle as to education, but then he did not separate the children from their parents, unless for the day, and therefore his plan was more applicable to manufacturing or populous districts than that of Mr. Fellenberg in Switzerland. The plan of Mr. Owen was, indeed, so much better, as it was calculated to improve the domestic habits of the people; the child being allowed, by remaining with its father and mother, to acquire those social and domestic habits which were of so much value in life, which begat those strong ties of affection, some of the best and most secure bonds of mutual assistance. With the example of what Mr. Owen had effected on the subject of the education of children, it would, he conceived, be impossible to refuse an inquiry into the practicability of extending it. If it were not vouched by such undeniable proofs, it could scarcely be believed that so much good had been done by the plan as was known to be produced at New Lanark. The example set there was, he conceived, much better than that produced in Switzerland. This system tended also, by a sort of reflex operation, to improve the habits of the parents themselves; for in the presence of children so trained, they would be ashamed of intoxication, or swearing, or any habits that might pollute the minds, or offend the feelings of those who were the objects of their attachment. This consideration, then, combined with the improved impressions of the children, was likely to produce the most salutary effect upon the morality and general conduct of parents, by checking the expression or exhibition of any impropriety, and hence he preferred the plan of Mr. Owen to that which he had witnessed in Switzerland. With a view to make an experiment of this plan, the hon. member for Bramber, the hon. member for Nottingham, had, with himself and a few other friends, made up a stock purse. He had proceeded in this experiment with the more alacrity, as he had the highest respect and esteem for Mr. Owen, whom

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he really believed one of the most humane, simple-minded, amiable men on earth. He was indeed a rare character; for although a projector, Mr. Owen was one of the most calm and candid men he had ever conversed with. You might discuss his theories in any terms you pleased—you might dispose of his arguments just as you thought proper; and he listened with the utmost mildness. His nature perfectly free from any gall, he had none of the feverish or irritable feeling which too generally belonged to projectors. But to revert to the committee association, of which he had the honour to be a member, he had to express their acknowledgments for the assistance which they had received from the right hon. gentleman the chancellor of the exchequer, who was always found ready to promote that which was most useful, namely, any plan of practical philanthropy. Through this association a school had been established in Westminster, according to Mr. Owen's plan; and if the experiment of that school were found practically useful, as there was every reason to expect, it was fairly to be calculated that the same experiment would be made elsewhere. The establishment in Westminster was a day-school, for which Mr. Owen had furnished the committee with an excellent superintendant, and it was going on in the most satisfactory manner, so satisfactorily indeed, that although originating in the charity of individuals, it was soon likely to be supported by the interest of those who were immediately benefitted by its existence. This was a most gratifying consideration. For although charity might begin, interest alone could continue or perpetuate institutions of this nature. If any person doubted the practical success of this plan, let him go into the school at Brewer's green, in Westminster, and he would sec both the nature of the plan and the benefits that attended it. There was indeed reason to expect that the schools established upon this system would soon and very generally enter into competition with those dame schools which had heretofore proved so very useful, and to which (while children of nine or ten years old were too often allowed to walk about almost as ignorant as beasts) infants were sent, to keep them out of harm's way, while their mothers went to work.—Of this indeed there could hardly be a doubt, as the schools to which he alluded would be conducted upon a better plan, and therefore parents would natu-
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rally rather pay quarter-pence to the one than to the other. Satisfied as he was that the success of this plan was likely to be promoted by inquiry, he was an advocate for the appointment of a committee of that House, by which that inquiry might be fully gone into, and effectually concluded. With respect to the spade husbandry which was recommended in Mr. Owen's plan, he must confess himself incapable of forming any judgment upon that part of the plan, as he was wholly unacquainted with the subject; and this was another reason with him for supporting the proposition of inquiry. But he was an advocate for inquiry, with a view to separate the wild and impracticable part of this plan from that which was sound, useful, and practicable; and he trusted that the House would not reject the latter along with the former.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there was nothing more usual, out of the House, than to see gentlemen of opposite political opinions uniting cordially and substantially in efforts for the benefit of the poor; and he was convinced that no spectacle could be more consoling than the display of the same spirit in parliament. It showed that that House did not act on party grounds when the welfare of the people was the subject of discussion; it showed that when they could see their way clearly, they would all agree in measures for alleviating the public distress. It would have given him great pleasure to concur in the present motion, if he had not thought that the House by going into the inquiry would give the sanction of parliament to a plan not only visionary and impracticable, but in the highest degree dangerous to the country. While he opposed the plan, however, he wished to do every justice to the character of Mr. Owen, whose humane and benevolent intentions could not be too highly praised. Though he was not particularly acquainted with the nature of the establishment at Lanark, he believed all that had been said of it. Indeed, some years ago he had visited Lanark, and though the establishment had not then attained its present state of excellence, the impression on his mind at that time was, that it was productive of great benefit, and reflected the highest credit on Mr. Owen. He had then thought the general system superior to any other that he had ever seen; and from what he had heard, he believed it to have been improved since that time. But, notwith-

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standing all this, he could not agree to the adoption of Mr. Owen's general system; and he should state to the House the grounds of his objections. In the year 1817, two public meetings were called at the city of London Tavern at Mr. Owen's request, at which he delivered a full explanation of the plan he had in view for the amelioration of society, and which explanation had since been given to the public. If he was incorrect in what he was about to state, he would thank a worthy alderman opposite, who was at the meeting, to correct him. At one of those meetings held on the 21st of August, 1817, Mr. Owen made a speech, from which he would now read the following extracts:—
"Why should so many countless millions of our fellow-creatures through each successive generation, have been the victims of ignorance, of superstition, of mental degradation, and of wretchedness?—My friends, a more important question has not yet been put to the sons of men. Who can answer it? Who dare answer it, but with his life in his hand; a ready and a willing victim to truth, and to the emancipation of the world, from its long bondage of disunion, error, crime, and misery? Behold that victim! On this day, in this hour, even now, shall those bonds be burst asunder, never more to unite while the world shall last. What the consequences of this daring deed shall be to myself, I am as indifferent about as whether it shall rain or be fair to-morrow. Whatever may be the consequences, I will now perform my duty to you, and to the world; and should it be the last act of my life, I shall be well content, and know that I have lived for an important purpose. Then, my friends, I tell you, that hitherto you have been prevented from even knowing what happiness really is, solely in consequence of the errors, gross errors that have been combined with the fundamental notions of every religion that has hitherto been taught to men. And, in consequence, they have made man the most inconsistent, and the most miserable being in existence. By the errors of these systems, he has been a weak and imbecile animal, or a furious bigot and fanatic; and should these qualities be carried, not only into the projected villages, but into Paradise itself, a Paradise would no longer be found.—In all the religions which have been hitherto forced on the minds of men; deep, dangerous, and lamentable princi-
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ples of disunion, division, and separation, have been fast entwined with all their fundamental notions; and the certain consequences, have been, all the dire effects which religious animosities have, through all the past periods of the world, inflicted with such unrelenting stern severity, or mad and furious zeal!—If, therefore, my friends, you should carry with you into these proposed villages of intended unity and unlimited mutual co-operation, one single particle of religious, intolerance, or sectarian feelings of division and separation—maniacs only would go there to look for harmony and happiness; or elsewhere, as long as such insane errors shall be found to exist!—I am not going to ask impossibilities from you—I know what you can do, and I know also what you cannot do. Consider again on what grounds each man in existence has a full right to the enjoyment of the most unlimited liberty of conscience; I am not of your religion, nor of any religion yet taught in the world!—to me they all appear united with much—yes, with very much—error!—Am I to blame for thinking thus? those who possess any real knowledge of human nature know that I cannot think otherwise—that it is not in my power, of myself, to change the thoughts and ideas which appear to me true. Ignorance, bigotry, and superstition may again, as they have so often done before, attempt to force belief against conviction—and thus carry the correct-minded, conscientious victim to the stake; or make a human being wretchedly insincere.—Therefore, unless the world is now prepared to dismiss all its erroneous religious notions, and to feel the justice and necessity, of publicly acknowledging the most unlimited religious freedom, it will be futile to erect villages of union and mutual co-operation; for it will be vain to look on this earth for inhabitants to occupy them, who can understand how to live in the bond of peace and unity; or who can love their neighbour as themselves; whether he be Jew or Gentile, Mahommedan or Pagan, Infidel or Christian; any religion that creates one particle of feeling short of this, is false, and must prove a curse to the whole human race!—And now my friends—for such I will consider you to the last moment of my existence, although each of you were now armed for my immediate destruction—such, my friends, and no other, is the change that must take place in your hearts and minds, and all your conduct, before you can enter these

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abodes of peace and harmony, you must be attired in proper garments before you can partake of all the comforts and blessings with which they will abound.—Such are my thoughts and conclusions, and I know you will hereafter ponder them well in your minds, and truth will prevail! When you shall be thus prepared, if life be spared to me, I will be ready to accompany you, and to assist with all my power in every particular step that may be necessary to secure your immediate happiness and future well-being.—Now, my friends, I am content that you call me an infidel; that you esteem me the most worthless and wicked of all the human beings who have yet been born! Still, however, even this will not make what I say one jot less true, or more false. No name can make falsehood truth; how can any name whatever make truth more true? Of what use, then, can names be, except to give a false validity to gross error? The interest of those who govern has ever appeared to be, and under the present systems ever will appear to be, opposed, to the interest of those whom they govern. Law and taxation, as these are now necessarily administered, are evils of the greatest magnitude; they are a curse to every part of society; but while man remains individualised, they must continue, and both must unavoidably still increase in magnitude of evil."
In reading these extracts from the speech of Mr. Owen, he did not wish to call down the spirit of persecution against him. He admired Mr. Owen's treatment of the persons under his care; and as to his religious opinions, he only regretted the aberrations of his mind. But it was evident, that he looked to the adoption of a plan subversive of the religion and government of the country; and however philanthropic his views might be, that House could not adopt the plan proposed by the hon. baronet, without countenancing those dangerous theories. But it appeared that Mr. Owen's plan was discountenanced by the unbiassed judgment of the public; for at the first meeting which he addressed at the City of London Tavern, his propositions were rejected. After Mr. Owen had spoken, several other gentlemen took part in the discussion. A worthy alderman proposed an amendment to one of the resolutions, and the purport of that amendment was, that no effectual relief could be given to the people without a fair representation in parliament. This amendment
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was adopted, so that it appeared, whenever a plan was proposed for ameliorating society, the grand panacea, parliamentary reform, was sure to be brought forward. He should regret, if the rejection of this motion led to the rejection of what was good in the plan; but he thought the hon. and learned gentleman who had preceded him in the debate, had cleared the way so well, as to show that this would not be a necessary consequence. It was, no doubt, true, that at a second public meeting a committee was appointed, for the purpose of considering Mr. Owen's plan, and a subscription had been opened for its advancement, to which the worthy baronet had liberally contributed. It appeared, however, that in this country of unbounded liberality—that in a city of unbounded wealth, the subscription completely failed. Only a small sum had been subscribed; and it was surely a strong prima facie case against the plan, that after it had been so long submitted to the public, it had received so little encouragement. He concluded by declaring, that as an official individual, he could not agree to a grant of the public money for the establishment of a plan that had been introduced to the public by a speech, in which all religions were pronounced false, and all systems of government bad.
Mr. John Smitheulogised the character of Mr. Owen, who had long exerted himself to alleviate the distresses of his fellow creatures. It appeared that the right hon. gentleman (the chancellor of the exchequer) was not disposed to give assistance to the plan, because it was proposed by a person who differed from himself on the subjects of religion and politics. In that respect he dissented from the views of the right hon. gentleman. No man could more lament than he did, the course which Mr. Owen had pursued; and indeed, he had told him, that if he introduced those obnoxious sentiments, he would prevent people from supporting his plan. Still he could not agree with those who thought this a sufficient ground for rejecting it. It was indeed a part of Mr. Owen's system to teach men to make allowance for such differences of opinion. He had never in the course of his life known a person so thoroughly exempt from prejudice or self-interest as Mr. Owen. The right hon. gentleman would allow him to remind him of an extraordinary circumstance attending the establishment at Lanark, and which particu-

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larly demanded his notice. Such was the nature of that establishment, managed as it was by a man of Mr. Owen's unfortunate religious belief, that during the last 14 years there was not one solitary instance of a man connected with it being convicted of a crime. Could the same be said of any other establishment in this country? Surely that system which produced such effects was at least worthy of consideration. He should perhaps have been silent on this occasion, had it not been for what had fallen from the learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham) in his excellent speech. On the subject of education he would speak out, and he denied that Mr. Owen's views on this point were visionary, for he knew them to be correct from the practical results which he had himself witnessed. Mr. Owen's plan embraced the education of children from the age of three years and upwards. He had seen the plan reduced to practice at Lanark, and Mr. Owen had there, by his system of instruction, taught those little creatures to do away all the contentious passions so common at that age. No man could see one of those little boys of nine years of age, without wishing that his own children had been similarly educated; that, he would freely confess, had been his own feeling. As to many parts of the plan of Mr. Owen, he did not pretend to understand them, and he could not give an opinion on what he did not understand. If a committee were granted to inquire into the subject, although he did not think they should go into the whole question of the poor-laws, still they might consider the present state of distress in which the population of the country was involved. He would take the liberty of asking the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues, whether they were prepared to come forward with any plan for the relief of the poor? If they were not, with what face could they refuse this committee? He did therefore hope, that if the right hon. gentleman persisted in his opposition to the appointment of this committee, he would, for the satisfaction of those who were anxious on this subject, state what he intended to do.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained. He did not object to Mr. Owen's plan, because Mr. Owen himself rejected the authority of all religions and all governments, but because Mr. Owen had stated the plan to be founded on those principles. As to the relief of the poor,
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it was only necessary for him to say at present, that there was a motion on that subject already before the House, and when it came to be discussed, he should take that opportunity of stating his opinions.
Mr. Ricardoobserved, that he was completely at war with the system of Mr. Owen, which was built upon a theory inconsistent with the principles of political economy, and in his opinion was calculated to produce infinite mischief to the community. Something had fallen from an hon. member on a former night, on the subject of the employment of machinery. It could not be denied, on the whole view of the subject, that machinery did not lessen the demand for labour; while, on the other hand, it did not consume the produce of the soil, nor employ any of our manufactures. It might also be misapplied by occasioning the production of too much cotton, or too much cloth; but the moment those articles ceased in consequence to pay the manufacturer, he would devote his time and capital to some other purpose. Mr. Owen's plan proceeded upon this—he who was such an enemy to machinery, only proposed machinery of a different kind: he would bring into operation a most active portion of machinery, namely, human arms. He would dispense with ploughs and horses in the increase of the productions of the country, although the expense as to them must be much less when compared with the support of men. He confessed he did not agree in the general principles of the plan under consideration, but he was disposed to accede to the proposition of a committee. Spade husbandry Mr. Owen recommended as more beneficial to production. He was not informed enough on the interests of agriculture to give an opinion, but that was a reason for sending the subject to a committee. For what did the country want at the present moment? A demand for labour. If the facts stated of spade husbandry were true, it was a beneficial course, as affording that demand. And though government or the legislature would not be wisely employed in engaging in any commercial experiment, it would be advantageous that it should, under present circumstances, circulate useful information and correct prejudices. They should separate such considerations from a division of the country into parallelograms, or the establishment of a community of goods, and similar vi-

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sionary schemes. Before he sat down, he trusted the House would excuse his offering a few observations on what he considered the cause of the distresses of the country. He fully concurred in what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend on the subject of population. The proportion of the capital to population regulated the amount of wages, and, to augment them, it was important to increase the capital of the country. But when he heard honourable members talk of employing capital in the formation of roads and canals, they appeared to overlook the fact, that the capital thus employed must be withdrawn from some other quarter. The causes of the insufficiency of capital, and the consequent disproportion between wages and population, were to be attributed to many circumstances, for some of which government were not to blame. Supposing a country with a numerous population, large capital, and a limited soil, the profits of that capital will be smaller there, than in a country populous, with lesser portion of capital, and with a great extent of soil. This country was one of large capital, but of increasing population and of an extent of soil necessarily limited; of course profits would be lower in it than in countries which had not the same limitation: still, though the profits were smaller, the capital continued in this kingdom, not only because persons felt a solicitude to keep their property under their own eye, but because the same confidence was not reposed in the security of others: the moment, however, other kingdoms, by their laws and institutions, inspired greater confidence, the capitalist would be induced to remove his property from Great Britain to a situation where his profits would be more considerable: this arose from no fault in the government; but the effect of it was to produce a deficiency of employment and consequent distress. Then came the question, had we taken the proper steps to prevent the profits upon capital from being lower here than in other countries? On the contrary had we not done everything to augment and aggravate the evil? Had we not added to the natural artificial causes for the abduction of capital? We had passed corn laws, that made the price of that necessary of life, grain, higher than in other and neighbouring countries, and thus interfered with the article which was considered the chief regulator of wages. Where grain was dear, wages must be
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high, and the effect of high wages was necessarily to make the profits on capital low. A second cause arose out of the fetters upon trade, the prohibitions against the import of foreign commodities, when, in fact, better and cheaper than our own. This was done in a spirit of retaliation; but he contended, that whatever line of policy other nations pursued, the interest of this nation was different: wherever we could obtain the articles we wanted at the cheapest rate, there we ought to go for them; and wherever they were cheapest, the manufacture would be the most extensive, and the amount of it, and invitation to capital, the greatest. Another cause of the existing disposition to send capital out of the country was to be found in the national debt. Instead of paying our expences from year to year, Great Britain had constantly pursued a system of borrowing, and taxes were accumulated not only to pay the simple interest, but sometimes even the compound interest of the debt; and the amount was now so enormous, that it became a matter of calculation, whether it was worth a capitalist's while to continue in a country where he not only obtained small profits, but where he was subjected to a great additional burthen. Every pecuniary motive impelled him rather to quit than to remain. For a great many of the various causes of the evil, some of the principal of which he had touched upon, there might not exist any immediate remedy. We had, however, a beneficial precedent in the proceedings of the last session. He alluded to the measures taken for a return to payments in specie; and he saw no inconvenience in keeping stedfastly to that system. Parliament had wisely extended the operations of that system over a number of years. They should follow the same course as to the corn laws. After the quantity of capital employed under the faith of legislative enactments in agriculture, it would be a grate injustice to proceed to an immediate repeal of those laws. But that House should look to the ultimate good, and give notice, that after a certain number of years, such an injurious system of legislation must terminate. The same observation applied to our prohibitory commercial code. From the variety of interests now in operation under that system, it would not only be necessary to look, but to look stedfastly, to a distant but certain period for its repeal. With respect to the national debt, he felt

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that he entertained opinions on that point which by many would be considered extravagant. He was one of those who thought that it could be paid off, and that the country was at this moment perfectly competent to pay it off. He did not mean that it should be redeemed at par; the public creditor possessed no such claim—were he paid at the market price, the public faith would be fulfilled. If every man would pay his part of the debt, it could be effected by the sacrifice of so much capital—With respect to the objection, that the effect of that sacrifice would be to bring so much land into the market, that purchasers could not be found for such a glut, the answer was, that the stockholder would be eager to employ his money, as he received it, either in the purchase of land, or in loans to the farmer or landowner, by which the latter might be enabled to become the purchaser, particularly when the government was no longer in the market as a borrower. He was persuaded that the difficulty of paying off the national debt was not so great as was generally imagined; and he was also convinced that the country had not yet nearly reached the limits of its prosperity and greatness. It was only by a comparative reference to the state of other countries that the opposite opinion could be entertained, and such opinion would gain ground as long as so many unnatural temptations, by our policy at home, were held out to withdraw capital from the country. He repeated his conviction that Mr. Owen's plan was in many parts visionary, but yet he would not oppose the appointment of a committee, if it were only for the purpose of seeing whether it was probable that the advantages which that gentleman expected from the use of spade husbandry could be realized.
Mr. N. Calvertopposed the motion. He saw no benefit that could arise from the appointment of a committee. Spade husbandry, whatever good effects it might otherwise be attended with in some places, would not afford permanent relief! because it would not afford permanent employment.
Mr. Alderman Waithmandisapproved of the plan as a general one. It was however much more objectionable when first brought forward than at present. With all the prejudices that were entertained against it, he saw no reason why it should not be sent to a committee, if it were only for the purpose of satisfying the public, and showing the impracticability of it Mr.
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Owen having succeeded in one instance upon a small scale, was convinced that he would be successful upon a larger one. This he (Mr. Waithman) was convinced was a visionary expectation. He would not follow his hon. friend who had spoken last but one through the various topics upon which he touched with so much ability. His hon. friend had gone over a large extent of matter worthy of most serious inquiry. The distress of the country might be traced to various causes; but the great one was the excessive and exorbitant taxation. The consequence was, that the profits of every species of produce were greatly reduced, and vast numbers, whose income was not sufficient to support them in this country, went to reside on the continent; so that what they received from the taxes here, as the interest of their capital, was sent abroad.
Lord Althorpwas sorry to differ in some respects from his hon. friend the hon. member for Portarlington. He agreed with him however, in the leading principles he laid down with respect to the causes of the present distress, and the mode of applying a remedy. He was not of the same opinion with his hon. friend on the subject of the corn laws. In principle they were wrong; and he opposed them when the subject was before the House. Still, he felt that in a period of war they would be of advantage in procuring an independent supply of that most necessary article. It was also a great object to secure the employment of capital in agriculture. It might indeed be said that it was bad economy to grow corn at home when it could be had cheaper from other countries. The answer to this was, that they could not secure a supply at home in time of war unless by imposing some tax on corn of foreign growth. He agreed with what was said respecting their commercial system, and was surprised that no means had been adopted for opening a more extensive market with foreign countries, particularly France. He did not allude to a commercial treaty; that, in his mind, was not desirable; but by admitting the wines and silks of France, the produce of this country would be taken in return, and produce mutual advantage. He did not think it would be prudent to agree to the present motion. All were agreed that the plan proposed was absurd; where, then, was the necessity for appointing a committee to prove its absurdity? If they were to engage in inquiry upon such grounds there

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would be no end to committees. With respect to spade husbandry, if advantageous it would soon be adopted. The public were sufficiently awake to their own interest, and it was better to let individuals pursue it in their own way. An experiment, if necessary, might be made by the board of agriculture, whose funds were adequate to the purpose.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that the wording of the motion, supposing it were otherwise unobjectionable, would induce him to vote against it, as it in fact recognized Mr. Owen's plan. It was impossible that he could give his support to any plan, which in its results could only, he thought, tend to delusion and disappointment. He did not intend to delay the House by entering at all into questions of employment of capital, or amount of revenue, to which indeed, he felt quite incompetent. Unquestionably a great deal was expected of them by the country; of that hon. gentlemen must be aware; and while he must admit that there was much which they could not do, he was not the less disposed to assist most warmly in the development of any measure which might have a tendency effectually to relieve the suffering poor.—But he really thought that, if the hon. baronet had the interest of Mr. Owen warmly at heart, he would not make an unfavourable impression on the public mind with respect to it, by pressing his motion to the division, which must, if he persisted, shortly take place.
Sir Charles Burrellopposed the motion. He was desirous to offer a few observations on the state of husbandry, in reply to some remarks which had been made upon the subject. In many cases, spade husbandry had been already tried, particularly in the hop counties, and most especially in Kent. This, therefore, was no new system. With regard to the printed papers which had been widely circulated—drawn up with the intention of displaying the large benefits likely to arise from, and the property to be rapidly accumulated by, the practice of spade husbandry, they were founded in mere delusion. It was quite impossible, he would venture to say, that any such quantity of corn could have been grown upon the same extent of land, as was said to have been raised by the superiority of spade husbandry. In particular instances, no doubt, much good might be effected by these means; but their general practice would be, in fact, the bringing back of agriculture, gener-
1212
ally, to a state of nature. There were, besides, many parts of the country where lands could not be so tilled. It had been said that this sort of husbandry would increase the food of the whole people. He denied that assertion; but suppose it did, what good would be done? What sale could there be for it, while no encouragement was given to the home growth of the British farmer—while foreign corn was allowed to be imported at a price which must defeat the British grower?—As to the corn laws, he thought it would be well to revise them in such a manner as to make corn yield a revenue to the British grower; and by doing so, he had no doubt, the state of the country would be materially improved.
Mr. Wilberforcecould not give his consent to this plan. His right hon. friend opposite, had already stated, as part of his objection to Mr. Owen's plan, the nature of his religious principles. This observation did not appear to be correctly understood by his hon. friend on the bench behind him. It applied, as he apprehended, not to the principles of any particular sect of any religion, but to those avowed by Mr. Owen himself; and if Mr. Owen, as he understood, objected to all the systems of religion at present established—if his whole plan proceeded upon a system of morals founded upon no religion whatever, but rather upon considerations of moral rectitude of conduct only, he was of opinion that it behoved the House to be cautious how it gave its sanction to an institution, which did not acknowledge as one of its essential features, that doctrine, on whose truth and piety it was not for him now to enlarge. In the year 1817, he had read a paper connected with this subject, which he presumed all who heard him had also seen. Till that paper came under his observation, he had really felt disposed to vote for the plan. That paper had, however, altered his opinion. It seemed an object of Mr. Owen, to establish a number of little communities, with each a certain allotment of ground through out the country. This, it was contended, would increase the quantity of sustenance. The conclusion implied that man would labour more diligently for the advantages to be distributed throughout a little community, than for his own individual profit. It was a position at variance with daily practice and constant experience. Societies which were to enjoy a sort of community of goods. He (Mr. Wilberforce) had not had

1213
the benefit of attending personally at the Lanark institution, but he had seen those who had; and he thought he understood the nature of it, from the very admirable speech in which it had that night been described. He was ready to admit that all those who visited it expressed themselves favourably of the system that prevailed there. It, had been brought to its present stale however, not by any particular rules of Mr. Owen's (though the exclusion of public houses and other circumstances must have greatly assisted) but by the good old system of Christianity. He trusted, however, while he could not support the present motion, that the House would not break up without at least expressing its inclination to devise some measure which might alleviate, if it failed to remove, the grievances of the lower classes. With respect to what had been said by the hon. gentleman about the misapplication of the public revenue, it was with the profoundest respect that he differed from a gentleman who had so greatly distinguished himself upon questions of political economy which had exercised the pens of some of the ablest writers this kingdom ever could boast of, and who, in that science, if he had not advanced any great new principles, had yet applied existing ones in such a manner as to claim for him the warmest esteem and admiration from his contemporaries. But, for himself, he must deny that we were in "an unnatural state." The idea of the application of capital to the prosecution of public works had been very generally entertained; but as to the capital, which some persons seemed to imagine as identified with land, it was well known that from various circumstances the value of land was too fluctuating and uncertain, to be considered as a species of fixed capital. Without instancing any particular cases, he would say generally, that when he saw great wealth on the one hand, and great distress on the other, he could not but be solicitous that some mode should, if possible, be devised of bringing them together; so as to render them mutually productive and beneficial. He believed, with an honourable gentleman who had spoken in the coure of the debate, that this country had not yet seen her best days. He did trust, and think, that she would go on increasing in strength, in greatness, and in happiness. We were, in fact, journeying in that road which was sure to conduct us to wealth, prosperity, and power; we
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were diffusing education. The reason why former states had been in all ages assimilated to the human frame, in its advance from infancy to youth, from youth to manhood, from manhood to decay, was this—the parallel proceeded upon this fact, that the religion of those states was founded on false principles. They went on from stage to stage of intellectual improvement, emerging from ignorance to knowledge, till the light of day beamed upon the fabric, and betrayed the rotten imposture upon which it was built. The pillar of our greatness, however, was raised upon that basis of all intellectual and religigions improvement—the christian religion. The pledge of our superiority was in the support of those doctrines, which, the more they were examined, were found to be the more excellent in their truths, the more beneficial in their effects. He was confident that the country would proceed in her mighty march of improving excellence, as she had hitherto proceeded; and that she would remain, to the end of time, the sanctuary of morals, the refuge of liberty, and the region of peace and happiness.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he would not detain the House more than a few minutes. The objections urged against Mr. Owen's plan were general, and yet almost every person so objecting, made some admission in its favour. It certainly ought not to be thrown out, as seemed to be the prevailing disposition, merely because it was Mr. Owen's plan. The great difficulties under which the country laboured, as had been repeatedly acknowledged, was the want of employment for labour and capital. This subject had been frequently before parliament, and, in some instances, it was deemed proper for government to interfere and lend its assistance to remedy the difficulty. Now, what said the excellent report of the commissioners who had been four years in Ireland, to examine into the state of agriculture; and to ascertain the quantity of waste lands? According to them, there were 2,500,000 acres lying waste in Ireland. And what did they assign as the cause of its so lying waste?—Why, the want of capital. There were, besides, the wastelands in England. He knew of one waste spot, which, if properly cultivated, would yield sustenance for 20,000 families, valuing them as 80,000 persons, and return 200,000 l. to government besides. Although he objected to many parts of Mr. Owen's plan, he
†

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thought that the part which related to the cultivation of the waste land was highly deserving of attention, especially when it was considered how large was the annual importation by this country of foreign corn. The plan ought certainly to be referred to a committee. It had been successfully adopted in commerce; what should prevent its efficacy in agriculture? Those who objected to it, from the dread of too greatly increasing the quantity of grain, did not consider that the country paid thirteen millions annually for grain beyond what the country could produce. Many more millions were also paid out of the country for flax and other commodities, and which he insisted might be and ought to be produced from the waste land and surplus labour of the country. This was the first motion that had been made for the appointment of a committee to consider of the best means of employing the poor, and it ought not to be rejected by the House merely because they did not altogether approve of the plan recommended. All who had seen the establishment at new Lanark, admitted that the course pursued by Mr. Owen had succeeded there; and why might not its benefits be extended? He was by no means partial to the whole of that gentleman's plan, but he conceived that a portion of it might be adopted with great advantage to the country. If his Majesty's ministers would come forward and say that they were prepared with any measure which might equally benefit the poor, by employing them in redeeming the waste lands of this country, he had no doubt the hon. baronet would cheerfully withdraw his motion: but he trusted he would not do so in any other case.
Sir C. Burrellin explanation observed, that no surplus grain was grown, simply for want of encouragement.
Mr. Maxwellexpressed his hope that the House would not refuse to grant the committee moved for by the hon. baronet.
Mr. D. W. Harveycontended, that the hon. member for Bramber had wholly misrepresented Mr. Owen's intentions, and his theological views. He had read the paper drawn up by a committee who had been appointed at Leeds to inquire into the nature of the establishment at New Lanark, and who had declared, that they never saw a purer system of morality than was there practised. While Mr. Owen did not disguise his own views of polemical subjects, he was not so extravagant
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as to think of introducing those views into his infant institution. To state, therefore, that it was an infidel institution, and almost an atheistical college, and that its tendency was to undermine Christianity, when the little community were as celebrated for their religious and moral deportment as for their intelligent useful, and industrious habits, was a gross misrepresentation. For himself, he was never aware that Christianity was aided by secular support, but on the contrary, he always imagined that it was wholly independent of it. The House were not called upon to discuss Mr. Owen's polemical or theological views. They had before them the fact, that a community of above 2,500 persons were, by that gentleman's system, brought into a state of great morality, of happiness, at a moment when the whole of the rest of the country was, comparatively speaking, in the greatest distress. Were they to be blind to that fact, because one honourable member thought that Mr. Owen wished to undermine Christianity, and another conceived that there was some miscalculation as to the advantage of spade cultivation? Unless his majesty's ministers would say that they had some other plan to propose, he thought the House bound to acquiesce in the honorable baronet's motion, were it only to show the people that they sympathized with them under the diversity of misery which they were suffering.
Sir W De Crespignyreplied. An argument had been urged against the motion, which was scarcely to be justified.—He owned that he felt extremely sore at that argument; recollecting, as he did, that in his life he had never witnessed a purer religion than that established at Lanark. It was true that more of the inmates belonged to the Methodistical church than to the Established; it was, however, a fine sight (and had the hon. member for Bramber been present he would have thought the same) to see them on each Sunday proceeding to their different places of worship. A right honourable gentleman, who had attacked Mr. Owen's plan, had coupled with it parliamentary reform. Now, he understood that to parliamentary reform Mr. Owen was decidedly hostile. Something had also been said about a community of property. There was no such thing at Lanark. Every man had his little cottage, purchased what he required, received his

1217
profits, and either deposited them in his own name in the savings banks, or did with them what he thought fit. Undoubtedly, such a general combination as that recommended by Mr. Owen would, in his (sir W. De Crespigny's) opinion, be highly beneficial; but that was not his present object. It was evident that something must be done for the relief of the poorer classes of the community. This was the first time that a proposition for considering a particular plan for that purpose had been submitted to parliament. He now asked his majesty's ministers, whether they had themselves any plan to propose on this important subject, as if so he would consent immediately to withdraw his motion?
After a pause, sir W. De Crespigny repeated his question. No answer being given, the House divided: Ayes 16, Noes 141. Majority against the motion 125.

List of the Minority.

Aubrey, Sir J.

Rancliffe, Lord

Barnett, Jas.

Ricardo, D.

Compton, Samuel

Smith, J.

Gaskell, B.

Sinclair, G.

Graham, Sandford

Waithman, alderman

Harvey, W. D.

Wood, alderman

Lamb, hon. G.

TELLERS.

Nugent, Lord.

Crespigny, Sir W. De

Pringle, J.

Maxwell, John

Palmer, F.

STATE OF THE SCOTCH MANUFACTURING DISTRICTS—RENFREW MEMORIAL.
Mr. Maxwellrose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his motion relating to the Manufacturing Districts in Scotland. He said, that at the time of his return from the continent he found the county of Renfrew labouring under a most severe pressure; but the pressure was most heavy upon those who were engaged in the manufacturing interest. They were wholly unable to support themselves by their exertions. Those who were appointed to relieve them had recourse to plans of artificial labour, such as the making of roads, &c., A large sum was subscribed for the purpose of that relief, under the idea that their distresses would prove to be only of a temporary nature; but after expending that, unfortunately another was found necessary to be demanded. In consequence of the situation in which Renfrewshire was placed, it was determined that a petition should be agreed to, stating the nature of the local distress, and
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pointing out to ministers that spirit of insubordination which began to manifest itself, and which would ever be found to prevail where such distress existed. This course was adopted principally for the purpose of giving to the House an opportunity of declaring what reason, if any, existed, for not bestowing on the northern parts of the kingdom that species of relief which had been granted to other districts of this country. It was felt that, if parliament took up the question, and showed an earnest desire to alleviate the wants of those individuals, the very fact that they had considered their case, would induce those who were visited by an accumulation of evils, to bear up against them with more fortitude than they would perhaps otherwise do. It was evident, that persons of moderate property, in those neighbourhoods where distress was strongly felt, could not, for any considerable time, continue to grant relief; for, if they did, the whole rental of their property would be consumed. In many instances, indeed, the relief afforded to the distressed operators swallowed up nearly the whole rental of the estates of well-disposed persons. When, in addition to this, he stated, that a great many individuals, who had made their fortunes by a connexion with trades and manufactures, had not felt it their duty to come forward and subscribe in this season of distress, and that a vast number of landholders in the distressed districts did not conceive that they were obliged to step forward with relief. When he declared this to be the fact, he felt that he was warranted in calling on that House to pay some attention to those who were now suffering, and to extend their fostering care to those districts in which the pressure of want was most prevalent. Such a proceeding would tend, in a great degree, to prevent the inroad of tumult and disaffection; and it would also operate in hindering the great defalcation of the revenue, which, under existing circumstances, was too much to be apprehended. If the House did not make any great sacrifice—if it showed that it was anxious, willing, and ready to take such measures as appeared best calculated to ameliorate the situation of those parts of the country, which, from various causes, suffered under almost unparalleled distress—if it granted even a trifling aid, much benefit would be derived from the manifestation of that feeling. For a long period an immense revenue had been cir-

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culating through the country—sums arising from loans, and from various other transactions, had been afloat. These encouraged industry, by the employment of many individuals in the different manufactures connected with war. This employment was the cause of a superabundant population; and, when war ceased, the population which had been thus created were left unprovided for. Other causes, the existing system of apprenticeship, for instance, tended also to increase the number of manufacturers. He felt it necessary, in calling the attention of the House to this subject, to advert to these points, in order to show that the House would be warranted in making some grant, since the necessity for it arose out of particular circumstances, which were not likely to occur again. The great point of complaint was, that gentlemen of landed property were called on to support those operative manufacturers; and very many of those who were obliged to contribute to their subsistence, had never derived any benefit from their labours. It would, therefore, be well for the House to consider what relief could, in such a case—a case of great hardship—be fairly and prudently granted. Even if his motion were not acceded to, the fair and liberal discussion to which he hoped it would give rise, would have a powerful effect in removing the discontent which prevailed. He conceived that it would be extremely proper to grant pecuniary assistance to those individuals who were desirous to emigrate from Scotland. There being no poor-rates in that country, many individuals were unable to procure the ten pounds which were necessary to enable them to leave the country. There were, in his opinion, certain points of taxation which demanded revision. Those who were scarcely able to procure a scanty subsistence, ought to be relieved from taxation altogether. He could never consider that a wise, just, or salutary taxation, which bore heavily on the lower orders, and augmented the pressure of that distress which originated in causes that could not, perhaps, be entirely removed. It should certainly be an object of great moment with the House, to consider how the immense superabundant population of the country could best be employed or relieved. He did think that some relief should be afforded to the poor in the distressed manufacturing districts of Scotland. It was extremely unfair that almost the whole burden should be placed
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on the shoulders of the landholder. Various modes might be pointed out by which this severe pressure could be avoided, and he hoped the House would adopt one or other of them. He thought it would be well if they seriously considered whether it would not be better to sanction some relaxation from the strict principles of political economy, in order to alleviate the evils which now confessedly existed in different parts of Scotland. The assistance hitherto derived from the land-owners was likely to be very much narrowed, if not wholly done away; because one-half of the produce of the land was frequently uncalled for; and, for the other half, the farmer was, in many instances, unable to obtain an adequate payment. If things went on in this way, it was clear that the source from which the operative manufacturer derived his subsistence, would soon be dried up. If this most important subject was not taken up warmly and zealously, those who were borne down by the pressure of distress would be led to think, that there was no sympathy for their situation. Feeling thus, the tie of their alliance would become weak; and, instead of acting on the doctrines of religion and morality, they would perhaps be incited to form themselves into bands of thieves. What must be the feelings of many fathers of families, when, owing to the extreme pressure of the times, they found it necessary to withdraw their children from school—when they were obliged to leave them in a state almost of nakedness, and saw them without food and without clothes in the midst of an inclement winter?—Would not such a state of things tempt men to question the excellence of those civil institutions under which they lived, and that form of government under which their rights were supposed to be protected? Would sot individuals, thus overwhelmed by distress, throw aside the system of good morals, and the love of pure character which they had previously cherished, and adopt other principles and sentiments? There had been instances in which the misfortunes of the people had produced such effects; and he much questioned whether the measures pending at that moment would prevent a similar result, unless they were accompanied by acts which would prove that their situation was not treated with coldness and apathy. He begged the House to consider, before they came in contact with the people, whether it would not be wise and

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prudent to look, with an anxious eye, to the circumstances which led to the present state of affairs, and to devise some means by which the affections of the people might be secured, and the great body of the population taught to reverence the laws of the land. There were circumstances which should induce every man of feeling to contribute his share towards alleviating the misfortunes of the labouring community. Whether he was in favour of a small pittance, or a large and liberal grant, he would have this consolation—that his efforts tended to reduce the sum of human suffering; that thereby discontent would be removed, and the interests of religion, of law, and of social order, would, in a proportionate degree, be asserted and preserved. Whatever feeling of discontent existed in the country was, he believed in his conscience, to be attributed to want, and to want alone. Individuals were to be found who were anxious for what was called radical reform; others called out for some new and undefined change in the constitution of the country; and the dissemination of their tenets had produced an alarming effect on the minds of the people. But he was firmly convinced, that such of the great mass of the population as had been brought to admire and to join in those tenets, acted more from the feelings engendered by want, and from the natural hope of having that want relieved, than from any disaffection to the government, or any dislike to the constitution of the country. The middling orders of society, though attached, on account of their property, to the existing government, were, by their feelings, strongly connected with the labouring classes; and he did not believe that, at the present moment, there was an individual in the former rank who would not contribute to any fair system of taxation, if he were satisfied that it would be the means of affording permanent relief to his less fortunate fellow-creatures.—The hon. member concluded by moving for "a copy of any memorial which has been transmitted to the Lords of the Treasury, relative to the distresses of the manufacturing part of the population of the county of Renfrew."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had no objection to the proposition of the hon. gentleman. It was obvious, however, that the object of his motion was pecuniary assistance; and he would state very shortly to the House the
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course which his majesty's ministers deemed it necessary to pursue on an occasion of considerable difficulty and delicacy. Every person must agree in the truth of the observation, that considerable distresses existed in the manufacturing districts of Scotland and of this country; but the mode of granting them relief was a matter which required serious consideration. Those distresses arose at different times, and from very different causes. Sometimes they were the effect of war, sometimes the result of peace. Fluctuations, created by a variety of causes, must have a powerful effect on manufactures. The demand for them would, at one period, be exceedingly large, and then the population would be generally employed; while at another, that demand would shrink and decrease so much, as to render it impossible to keep the manufacturing population at work; and of course, a considerable pressure of distress must be produced. The House must be aware, how much that distress was likely to be aggravated in a country where no law existed, which could be carried into effect, when the working population were thrown out of employment. When cases of this kind occurred in England, the poor tradesmen found relief by the operation of the poor-laws. In Scotland, where such a system did not exist, the pressure was, undoubtedly, much more severe. He was afraid that if parliament were to introduce the system of poor-rates among the people of Scotland, it would be very ill received; and, on the other hand, if they departed from the existing principle, and bestowed relief on, local districts, there was no place that would not expect to have its distresses alleviated in the same way. To show the view which ministers took of this subject, he would read the answer which had been sent to an application made by the duke of Hamilton for a grant to relieve the distresses of the inhabitants of Lanarkshire:—"Fife House, 14th December 1819. My lord; I have had the honour of receiving your grace's letter. I informed you some days ago of the course of proceeding which had been adopted in consequence of the application from the city of Glasgow. A petition has been presented to the House of Commons from that place, and measures are in progress for carrying into effect the prayer of that petition. As soon as the question of security can be settled to the

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satisfaction of parliament, government will have no difficulty in making an advance, with a view to immediate relief. Your grace does not seem to be aware that the government of this country has no fund at its disposal for the relief of the distresses of the poor; that the people of England provide for their poor by local assessments, and that it never could be expected in reason or justice that they should be called upon gratuitously to provide for the poor of the other parts of the united kingdom (where no assessment exists) in addition to their own. If the district of Lanark, or any other of the distressed districts of Scotland, will apply to parliament for leave to assess themselves in aid of their poor, government will have no difficulty in recommending, under the special circumstances of the case, that advances shall be made on the security of such assessments; or, if any plan can be proposed to parliament for giving employment to the poor, by means of local improvements, government will have the same disposition to forward the object by temporary advances, where reasonable security can be given for ultimate repayment. With respect to emigration, your grace is already acquainted with my sentiments. The object, important as it is in itself, can from its nature only admit of gradual accomplishment, and to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution of such a plan could only lead, in addition to unlimited expense, to the ruin and destruction of those whom it is wished to relieve. I request that your grace will communicate these sentiments to the gentlemen with whom you correspond, and at the same time inform them, that if they will come forward with some specific proposal, on the principle of that of Glasgow, government will have every disposition to give the most liberal and indulgent consideration to it, and to recommend it, if possible, to the adoption of parliament.—I have, &c., (Signed) Liverpool.''—From the nature of this letter, the House would perceive that the government was not inattentive to the distresses of that part of the empire; and he could further add, that every possible consideration would always be bestowed on the question by those who had the guardianship of the public interest.
Mr. Primrosesaid; there was a great difference between the distress of the manufacturing districts in England and in Scotland, inasmuch as in the one country
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it was relieved by poor-rates, which had no existence in the other. Now, some relief ought to be granted to the population of Scotland; for if they were permanently out of bread, they would be permanently seditious. At present, there was not only a want of employment amongst the manufacturers, but in the warehouses there was an excess of their commodities. This surplus of goods rendered the master-manufacturer incapable of paying the labourer as usual, and therefore the labourer was obliged to work more hours than customary in order to gain wages sufficient to supply the wants of nature. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the distress existing in the manufacturing districts of Scotland would be made the subject of inquiry, and that the House would enter into that inquiry, devoid of all political views, except as far as regarded the effects of taxation upon the manufacturing interests.
Mr. Kirkman Finlaysaid, that every attention was paid by lord Liverpool, and the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer to every remonstrance and memorial presented on the part of the distressed operatives of Scotland.
Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, that while distress so generally pervaded the whole country, he could not refrain from observing on the contracted, and unstatesman-like policy pursued by his majesty's government. Two special considerations had been omitted in their views of that great question, namely, the want of provisions for those persons whose families were in a state of starvation, and the general interests of the community. Ministers seemed inclined to throw the support of the distressed upon the more opulent, without considering that every pressure on them, would necessarily re-act upon the people. It would be no answer to those who could not procure food, that the army was increased, that coercive measures were necessary to be enforced, and that an increased expenditure was requisite to meet the general exigencies of the times. All that might be the case; but it would never satisfy the people, nor procure them the means of subsistence. Their distresses should be looked to, and the causes that produced them probed to the bottom; if any serious intention was entertained of effectually removing them. In a season of such emergency as the present, the government and he parliament should interfere; for the poor

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and the distressed were not only concerned, but the general peace and prosperity of the country. Society was only established, and governments created for the purpose of the general good, and the evil of starvation should not be thrown on one particular class of persons.—If the evil were distributed more equally, its pressure would be less severe; and if owing to the line of policy hitherto adopted, distress had multiplied to a most alarming height, the time was arrived at which measures should be taken for its diminution and relief. He could not forget the grants which were made to the Portuguese, the Russians, and the Germans, and even to persons nearer home—the weavers of Spitalfields. How, then, could it be said, that the present demand was new? or that the case submitted to their consideration did not loudly call for legislative interference? While aggravated misery existed, they should not sit with their arms across, and say, leave it to the natural cures for an overgrowth of population. These natural cures would be, famine and pestilence. But were these to be their remedies? Why was society at all invented, if not to provide remedies of a safer and a better nature? The present distresses were not confined to any one particular district: the causes that produced them operated but too generally; and when people were dying for want, it was high time to consider of the best means for the prevention of increasing evils. If a ship at sea was reduced to short allowance, no one would think of throwing a part of the crew overboard, in order to make ampler provision for the rest. No, the scanty provisions would be equally divided; and the same thing should be done in the present situation of this country. Temporary relief about two years ago was found of great assistance towards the mitigation of distress. Why then not try the same experiment on the present occasion? The peace of society, and the stability of the government depended on the exertions which might now be made to relieve the people from those calamities by which they were oppressed. He was a friend to all necessary measures for the repression of disaffection; but he called upon them, for God's sake, not to give the people to understand that no attention would be paid to their distresses.
Mr. Huskissonrepelled the charge of inattention made on the government by
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the hon. member, and added that the letter which had just been read must have satisfied any man of the disposition of ministers to use their best endeavours to procure relief. Distress existed in certain districts of Scotland, perhaps from the over-growth of population; but those very districts had increased in prosperity more than one hundred fold, by the industry of that very population, whose distresses had been so much dwelt on. In looking at the distresses of the manufacturers, they were bound to look at the state of the foreign markets, particularly that of America, one of the greatest consumers of British manufacture; and if they fairly looked to that, they would find no legislative measures of the government that could remedy those evils, whose existence he regretted as much as any member in that House. Violent speeches could not reduce distress, but would rather tend to increase that discontent, that feverish excitation, which were now so visible throughout the country. The parliament could do but little by direct relief; but much could be done by restoring that confidence and security to the capitalist, which recent measures had so much shaken. If this were not effected, capital would be naturally withdrawn from its accustomed channels of circulation, the industrious classes would be left without employment, and the general decay of commerce would most ruinously ensue. To prevent this accumulation of mischief should be the desire of all; and he felt satisfied it was the sincere and heartfelt desire of his majesty's ministers.
Mr. Tierney, thought it extraordinary that government, knowing all this distress to exist, had not been prepared with some measures to relieve it. He was not at all surprised that those who were connected with that part of Scotland, and who had themselves been eye-witnesses of the misery and starvation which prevailed there, should express themselves in warm language; and he trusted that the House, on taking that circumstance into consideration, would pardon any warm expressions that might have been used. There were occasions on which government was glad to employ the distressed part of the population on works of general importance. This had been done at Glasgow and elsewhere; but in the county of Renfrew, no public works could be undertaken; and thus the principle which was good in one part of Scotland, was bad in

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another, from being totally inapplicable. He was ready to admit that Scotland was as much bound to provide for its poor as England; but if there was any difficulty in raising a sum there to relieve them, (and he did not say that there was any such difficulty), government might be justly called upon to assist in obviating it. The right hon. gentleman had denied, with considerable vehemence, that any of our existing evils arose from the policy of ministers. Now he (Mr. T.) thought that some of them had. A principle of political economy had been violated by an issue of paper, that was not convertible into money: and this, as they all knew, had not been productive of any advantage to the state. The people of part of Scotland were now allowed to be in jeopardy of starvation. Was he, when they were in such circumstances, to understand that no relief would be granted to them, unless the gentlemen of landed property came forward in their behalf? No; that was not exactly the case: all the gentlemen on the other side said that something ought to be done, but they could not tell what. So said the poor and famished manufacturers, but with a meaning rather different. This something, which was to be done when the people required relief, appeared very like nothing; but when something was to be done to coerce the people, that something came before them in the shape of six or seven bills. Did gentlemen think that it was only by dint of law and a military force, that they could restore strength, and health, and soundness, to their convulsed country? He hoped not. It was too monstrous a proposition to be seriously entertained for a moment. They were now receiving complaints from different parts of the kingdom, not of imaginary miseries or fictitious evils; they were receiving petitions, not for absurd theories of representation, or wild changes in the constitution; but complaints of actual misery, and that, too, of the very worst nature—of starvation. It was a dreadful state of society to live under, and would become still more so, if relief was not granted. It was said that this relief ought to come from the landed proprietors; but was it not too much to ask, that the calamities arising out of the decay of the manufacturing interest, should be entirely relieved at the expense of the agricultural, which was not itself in the most flourishing condition. If ever there was a case in which the
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House ought to seek to extend redress to the people, either by granting a committee, or in any other way, this surely was one. He did not think this a party question; and if a committee was granted, he should not enter it with party feelings. He recommended it, because he believed it would be the best way of conciliating the disaffected, and restoring tranquillity to that part of the country which was disturbed.
Mr. Marryatsaid:—Mr. Speaker; I regret that language should have been used in this debate, the tendency of which is rather to aggravate than allay the discontents that prevail among the labouring classes of the community. I also regret as it is admitted on all hands that these discontents originated chiefly in distress, that his majesty's ministers have it not in contemplation to bring forward any measures by which that distress may be alleviated. I admit that the safety of the state is the first object that demanded their attention; but that being provided for by the various bills now in progress through the House, I think measures of relief, as far as relief is practicable, ought to go hand in hand with measures of coercion. It has been stated in many loyal addresses to the throne, echoed back again to us in the speech from the throne, re-echoed in our address, and repeated in various speeches in this House, that this distress is only of a temporary nature. Often as I have heard this asserted, I have never once heard it attempted to be proved; and I believe for this plain reason, that to prove it is impossible, because this distress is inherent in, and inseparable from, the situation in which this country is now placed. We are in an artificial and extraordinary state of things, different from that of any other nation on earth. We have to provide for the interest of an immense national debt, in addition to the expenses of our regular peace establishment, so that the ordinary sources of revenue, derived from taxes on internal consumption, which served to defray the expenses of other governments, will not suffice for our wants; but we depend also upon the revenue derived from manufacturing, to a great extent, for the consumption of foreign powers. This resource is of immense importance, as may be seen by the single instance of the cotton manufac-

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tory. The raw cotton annually consumed in this country costs about six millions, which in its manufactured state is sold for at least six times its original value, or thirty-six millions, leaving a profit to this country of thirty millions. At the close of the war, about one-third of the profits or income of every individual, found their way into the exchequer, as appears by the returns under the Income Tax act. That tax was paid on nearly 150 millions, for it produced 14,800,000 l.; adding one third or 75 millions, for short returns and exemptions, the total income of the inhabitants of this country will be something more than 220 millions, and the amount of the public revenue at the same period exceeded 70 millions, or nearly one third. Since the repeal of the income tax, the proportion is reduced to about one fourth; so that the cotton manufacture now produces an annual revenue of 7½ millions. Extend this calculation to our other great staple manufactures, wool, leather, glass and earthenware, hardware, and various others, a large proportion of which is exported, together with the produce of our mines, lead, iron, copper, tin, and coals, and it will be seen how much our revenue depends upon the export trade of the country. During the war, we commanded a monopoly of the commerce of almost all the world, and increased our manufactures to such an extent, that they actually occupy a much greater part of our population than are employed in agriculture. Every thing then wore the appearance of prosperity, for the workmen obtained high wages, for which the master manufacturers indemnified themselves, by the high prices they obtained for their goods in foreign parts. But when peace returned, and we came into competition with the manufacturers of every nation on the continent, where labour was much cheaper than in Great Britain, a great and sudden revulsion took place. Our master-manufacturers found themselves undersold, and were consequently obliged to reduce the price of their goods. To relieve themselves from this loss, and enable themselves to afford their goods as cheap as their rivals in foreign markets, they reduced the wages of their workmen, and at length even this resource has become ineffectual; for although the workmen who continue to have employment, are only paid a pittance insufficient for their support, the export of our manufactures
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is so much diminished, that great numbers of them are without any employ whatever—I know there are many individuals who think that British skill, capital and enterprise, will carry all before them; but I can assure those gentlemen that they tinder-rate the exertions of our rivals, as I can show them by referring to the trade of the Havana, which being open to all the world, is as fair a criterion as can possibly be furnished. From the returns of the vessels that arrived at that port for the six months ending in July last, it appears that out of 99 which came from Europe, only fifteen sailed from Great Britain; eighteen were from France, and twenty-one from Holland and the Hans towns. This enumeration shows that six parts out of seven of the wants of the inhabitants of the island of Cuba, can be supplied cheaper from other parts of Europe than from Great Britain; and confirms the positions I am endeavouring to maintain, that manufactures can be afforded cheapest where labour can be procured at the lowest rate, and that labour will be lowest where the taxes are the lowest, because the rate of taxation necessarily enhances the price of every commodity that men eat, drink, wear, or consume. Peace brought the same distress upon agricultural as upon the manufacturing classes, by exposing the British farmer to a competition with the foreign grower of corn, but the land-holders relieved themselves by passing the corn laws, which raised the price of bread upon the lower classes, at the very moment when their means of paying for it were diminished by the reduction of their wages. I impute no blame to the landed interest, for their distress, required relief; but I contended at the time, that they helped themselves with rather too liberal a hand; and the present state of things proves that the public burthens now press too heavily on the labouring classes of the community. The longer we attempt to go on upon our present system, the more, I fear, will our financial and political difficulties increase. Six years ago, the right hon. gentleman the chancellor of the exchequer, published a pamphlet entitled "Outlines of a New Plan of Finance," in which he predicted that according to his new plan, the whole of the national debt would be liquidated in the year 1837; and told the public "that he had found out a new discovered treasure of 100 millions, such as no country ever before possessed, raised

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without the impoverishment of any individual, or any embarrassment of the general circulation." Does any man, in his sober senses now believe, that the whole of the national debt will be paid off by the year 1837, or that the right hon. gentleman has these 100 millions in his pocket? Sir the fallacy of the right hon. gentleman's plan consisted in his taking it for granted, that taxation might be increased to an indefinite amount; his calculations were founded on an addition of 21 millions to all the then existing taxes; and one of the first acts of John Bull, after the peace, was, to kick off seventeen millions from the load of taxes he already bore. Thus vanished at once all the right hon. gentleman's visions of liquidating the national debt, and his newly discovered treasure. This retrospect is important, as it may serve to bring the right hon. gentleman to true principles of finance; and to show him that if he means his next plan to succeed, he must found it on the basis of reducing, not augmenting, the present weight of taxation. This appears to me (to use a proscribed term), to be the only radical cure for the evils under which the country now labours; and in my opinion would be best accomplished, by a general contribution of property of every description, for the purpose of paying off a considerable portion of the national debt, and thus getting rid of those taxes which render it impossible for our labouring classes to afford their labour as cheap as their continental competitors. I know of no other means of reviving the foreign demand for our manufactures, and thus securing constant employment to the distressed part of our population. The measure, though severe is certainly practicable. I happened to be in Holland in the winter of 1802, and the inhabitants of that country had then paid ten per cent upon their capital, besides a very considerable per centage on their income. Some gentlemen have recommended a renewal of the property tax, for the purpose of taking off those taxes which press most heavily upon the poor, and this would certainly give them considerable relief, but it should be considered, that the property tax must be perpetual, the other measure temporary that the relief given by the former would be only partial, that by the latter effectual; that by imposing a property tax in time of peace we exhaust a resource which ought to be reserved for time of war, and
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may be obliged to submit to insults from foreign powers which we dare not resent, on the contrary, this country would stand in a prouder situation than ever, if after incurring such a vast expenditure to deliver Europe from the most gigantic despotism that ever attempted to crush the liberties of mankind, she made such an unexampled sacrifice to relieve the suffering classes of her own population, on whom the public burthens pressed with too disproportionate a weight. I shall not go into any particular details on this subject. It is the province of his majesty's ministers to propose specific plans of relief, for the distresses which have produced such alarming symptoms of discontent; and I trust they will shortly bring forward some general and well digested plan of this description, such as will meet the full approbation, as I am persuaded it will receive the most serious consideration of this House. In the mean time, I cannot concur in any local or partial measures, such as that we are called upon to adopt by the present motion.
The motion was then agreed to.

SEIZURE OF ARMS BILL.
Lord Castlereagh Lord Castlereagh moved the order of the day for the third reading of this bill.
Mr. Calcraftstated, that he had been extremely desirous, if it had been possible, to give his support to this bill. The object of himself and the friends with whom he acted, in the opposition which they had given to the present measures was the security of the public peace; but even though such was their object, neither he nor they could support a bill which authorized the searching of a man's house by night for arms. If the noble lord on the other side would call to his recollection what had passed in another country, he would find that arms had been seized more easily by day than by night; and without any of those violations of decency and decorum which must naturally take place when a man's doors were broken, open, and his whole family suddenly exposed to the gaze and inspection of official intruders. For these reasons he should vote against the measure.
Sir Joseph Yorkewished to explain the vote which he intended to give this evening, as some gentlemen might not know how to reconcile it with his vote of a former evening. He could have wished the words "by night" to have been struck

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out of the bill; hut, as it had seemed good to a large majority to retain them, he should vote for the bill, rather than allow so necessary a measure, as it was to be lost altogether.
Mr. Dickinsonsaid, that no man was more anxious than he was to justify the right of the people of England to have arms; but, in the present state of the public mind, he thought it expedient to place this right under some restriction.
Lord James Stuartcould have wished the government to have come forward with some more conciliatory measure. He would have agreed to the bill now before the House if the clause, allowing the search by night, had undergone the amendment which an hon. friend of his had proposed. The bill in its present form contained something so hostile to the spirit of the constitution, that he could not possibly support it. He was not sufficiently acquainted with the forms of the House to know how to proceed, in order to throw it out; but he trusted, that some gentleman of greater parliamentary experience than he possessed, would take the proper course to effect that object.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that he should move to leave out the words "by night," if for no other reason at least for this—to give an hon. baronet on the other side (sir J. Yorke) the opportunity of voting twice in 29 years against the government [A laugh].
The Speakerthen put the question, that this bill be now read a third time, which was agreed to without a division, on the motion that the bill do now pass, Mr. Tierney moved to leave out the words "by night," on which the House divided—For the motion, 46; Against it, 158: Majority, 112. The bill was then passed.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, lord

Grenfell, Pascoe

Brougham, H.

Grosvenor, gen.

Benet, J.

Harvey, D. W.

Barnet, James

Hume, Jos.

Beaumont, J. W.

Howarth, H.

Calvert, C.

Hamilton, lord A.

Denman, Thos.

Howard, hon. W.

Evans, W.

Kennedy, T. F.

Ebrington, visct.

Lamb, hon. G.

Fergusson, sir R. C.

Longman, Geo.

Fitzroy, lord C.

Lambton, J. G.

Farrand, R.

Lloyd, J. M.

Grant, J. P.

Monck, sir C.

Guise, sir W.

Maberly, John

Graham, J. R. G.

Maberly, W. L.

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M'Leod, R.

Stuart, lord J.

Osborne, lord F.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Pryce, R.

Wood, alderman

Pares, Thos.

Waithman, alderman

Palmer, C. F.

Wilson, sir Robert

Ricardo, D.

Yorke, sir Joseph

Rancliffe, lord

TELLERS.

Sefton, lord

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Scarlett, James

Calcraft, John

Smith, hon. R.