Commons Sitting of 13 March 1818

PETITION OF ROBERT SWINDELLS, COMPLAINING OF THE OPERATION OF THE HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION ACT.
Sir S. Romillyrose to present a Petition from Robert Swindells, of Macclesfield, in the county of Chester, whose case he had adverted to in the course of his observations on the Indemnity bill.* The petition did, he perceived, differ in some respects from the statement which appeared in the Chester newspaper, but that statement substantially concurred with the petitioner in all material points. This petition was forwarded to an hon. friend of his, in order to be presented, before he alluded to the case in that House; but his hon. friend (Mr. Bonnet) being prevented from attending the House, had sent it to him to have it presented. He now proposed to have the petition brought up, in order to have it laid on the table. What might become of this petition hereafter he could not pretend to say. He did not know that the sufferings of the poor petitioner, with the loss of his wife and child, might not be made a topic of merriment to enliven some future debate. Be that as it might, he would do his duty in presenting it.
The Petition was then read; setting forth,
"That on the 10th of March, 1817, at twelve o'clock at night, when himself, his wife, and small child had retired to rest, a number of people came, with threats, knocking with great violence at his door, demanding entrance; the petitioner got up, and opened the window, requesting to know who was there; the reply was, "constables;" he told them to go away, that they had no right to disturb him in that manner; they threatened him with many threats and curses, and exclaimed, "If you don't open the door we will break it open, we will break it in pieces if you don't open the door and get us a light;" the petitioner's wife, being very much alarmed, and far advanced in pregnancy, did intreat him to open the door, which he did as soon as he got a light, and in rushed a number of men, viz. Mr. Samuel Wood, alderman, Mr. Joseph Tunnacliff, silk manufacturer, James Powell, banker's clerk, and several others, acting, as the petitioner supposed, under the authority of the magistrates, with staves lifted as if they meant to fell him to the ground instantly; the petitioner asked them for their authority for coming to his
* See p. 973.
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house in that manner; with their staves lifted over his head, they exclaimed, "This is our authority, and where are those men you have in your house?" the petitioner said, "What men?" they answered, "Why those men you have in your house?" the petitioner told them he had got no men in his house, that there was no person in his house except himself, his wife, and child; Mr. S. Wood and others took the light, and searched the house, but found no men there; Mr. S. Wood said, "There have some men slept in your house;" the petitioner told him that no man did ever sleep in his house but himself; they began to rummage his house and destroy his property; they demanded the keys of his chest and boxes; the petitioner said he did not know where they were; they threatened him, with their staves brandished over his head, that they would break the chest in splinters if he did not get them the keys; the petitioner's wife and child being down stairs, as They got out of bed, and she fearing the consequence of their threats, told them where the keys were; they got them, and opened the chest and box, one of them having the box under his arm, and said they would take it along with them; but as the keys were found, and the contents rummaged, it was left; all this was done to the great damage of the clothes and other contents, every thing being unfolded, broke open, and thrown about the house, every bonnet and hat being broke flat together; they demanded another candle, but the petitioner did not offer to comply, and they threatened him with staves as before, so that he got them one; that being lighted, a party went up stairs, pulled the bed-clothes off the bed to the floor, turned the bed up of a heap, went to the beaufet, pulled out most of the contents, and broke and threw them about the floor; they also opened his wife's work-bags, her sewing which she had been preparing for the child she then carried. was also thrown about the floor; when they had plundered his house in every direction, they took with them a bundle of printed papers and pamphlets, and went off saying it would not be long before they would visit him again, which they never have; neither have they returned his property which they took away with them; but the scene did not stop here, for on the next day, on the 11th of March, his wife declared to him and many others that the fright and starvation with cold

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had killed her, which she continued to express till the day of her death, for pains, coughing, and spitting ensued which rendered her for several weeks unable to lay down in bed till the 26th of April, when she was delivered without pains; being unable to rest, she expired on the 28th, the day but one afterwards, though all the assistance was got that lay in his power, leaving the petitioner, the child she was delivered of, and another one year and eight months old, to bewail her loss; the petitioner called on Mr. S. Wood, at his house, to know the reason of his being treated in such a manner, but got no satisfactory answer from him; the petitioner's troubles did not end here, for on the 17th of May he was served with a process of law from the court of King's-bench, under a penalty of 100 l for his appearance to answer such charges that should then and there be exhibited against him; on the 31st of May another process of law was served upon him, to the same effect as the former; at this time his little infant died, for the want of its mother; on the petitioner's being served by the attorney s clerk, he informed him he was not furnished with means sufficient to supply himself for such a journey; the petitioner said he was willing to go if means could be procured for the journey; the clerk told him he must try his friends; and he did so, but was not able to succeed; the petitioner went to the mayor to solicit his advice; the mayor said he knew nothing of the affair, and could give him no advice; the petitioner said to him, if he had been guilty of any misdemeanors, he should deliver himself into his charge; the mayor said, I know nothing of you, I know nothing at all about you; on Sunday June the 22d, about seven o'clock in he evening, Mr. Frost, constable, came to the petitioner, and said he had a warrant against him, and he took him to his lockup room, and kept him till the 27th; during this confinement the petitioner was allowed no subsistence; from there he was conveyed to Chester castle, to subsist on bread and water, having no means left to get any thing else, such is the change of his condition in the course of a few weeks; a wife whose endearing disposition lost her life by cowards, his child lost for the want of its mother, his other left to the mercy of a parish officer, and himself confined in a prison in the castle of Chester upwards of five weeks; he was then liberated without trial, on giving
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his future residence, without any thing to support him for a journey of forty miles home; but happening to meet in Chester with the coachman that brought him, the petitioner told him he was liberated, and had not the means' to carry him home; he said he did not care, he brought him there, and he would take him back money or no money, but he has paid him since his return; the petitioner states these facts, which he is willing to prove if called upon; he appeals to the House if this is the reward he has merited, after having been upwards of eleven years in his majesty's service, out of which he was upwards of three years on board his majesty's ship Ville de Paris, off Brest, upwards of three years in his majesty's gun vessel Insolent, upwards of four years and six months on board his majesty's ship Hussar, and returned from the East Indies with the earl of Minto, after being debilitated through the fatigues of war and severity of the country; and the petitioner calls upon the House to grant him, or cause to be granted, such redress as in their wisdom shall seem just."
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.

PETITION AGAINST THE MONOPOLY OF BEER—ADJOURNED DEBATE,
The Adjourned Debate on the motion "That the Petition against the Monopoly of Beer," presented on the 10th instant [see p. 933] do lie on the table, being resumed,
Mr. C Calvertrose. He said that he was prepared to enter into the petition the day on which it was presented, and to refute every charge which had been brought forward against the brewers. He came down to the House on the succeeding evening, when the hon. gentleman who presented the petition did not arrive in his place till other public business had prevented the discussion. He had no intention to go into the subject at any length, provided any gentleman felt inclined to move the appointment of a committee, to which the petition should be referred. The petition contained some very grave charges, which were well worthy the attention of the House, and more particularly the charge of the brewers being in the systematic habit of putting poisonous ingredients into the beverage which they caused to be retailed to the public. Such a charge was not a light one; but it was one which could be confuted with very little trouble.

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He had no intention himself to move the appointment of a committee, but, in the hope that some other gentleman would do so, he should sit down: but he trusted he should be allowed to go into the question provided it was not done.
Mr. Lockhartsaid, he had no intention to move for a committee. He had only performed his duty in presenting the petition. He had, however, no objection to a committee, if the hon. gentleman who had mentioned it on a former evening, should move it.
Mr. W Smithsaid, he had examined the subject of the petition clause by clause, and had likewise closely observed the evidence upon the subject as detailed in the voluminous reports of the police committee. His advice to his hon. friends upon the subject was, that if the hon. gentleman who presented the petition should move for a committee, it would not become them to refuse it; but he thought that on their part, such a proceeding was wholly unnecessary. Any gentleman in the House might put together the different parts of the evidence before the House, and then see in what manner they contradicted or supported each other. It appeared that the petition complained of three things; namely, the price, the monopoly, and the adulteration of one of the first necessaries of life. In the question of monopoly the petitioners themselves furnished the best answer, for they did not make any charge of agreement among the brewers as to price. Now, there could be no monopoly unless both price and quality were taken together. There was no sort of agreement as to the quality of the beer sold at a certain price, for every one of the eleven brewers charged with the monopoly, might make their beer of any quality they pleased; consequently, there was no monopoly. Now, with respect to the great article of adulteration, it would be absurd to imagine for a single moment, that such could be the case, for every one knew, that the laws against adulteration were severe in the highest degree. It could never be worth the while of any brewers to run the risk of adulteration when the penalties were considered, to which they would necessarily be subject. In the next place, as to the use of deleterious ingredients, it would not bear a question to be raised; for in the large breweries it would absolutely require such publicity as not only to be open to
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the servants engaged in the establishment, but to the whole of the neighbourhood. When it was considered that his hon. friend (Mr. C. Barclay) was engaged in a concern which brewed upwards of 300,000 barrels in a year, and that all the other houses charged with this monopoly were engaged in concerns, all of them upon a very large scale, although not so large as that of his hon. friend, how could the materials be carried in which could produce the slightest effect on so immense a quantity, without the fact being known to the whole neighbourhood, besides the persons connected with their concerns? Really this was too ridiculous to be listoned to for one single moment. For, abstracted from the positive denial which had been given, it was impossible that the parties should so risk their character and fortune. Such a supposition appeared to him to be too absurd. For these reasons, although he should not be one to urge the House to enter into a committee, yet, if the petitioners thought proper to press it, it was not the part of his hon. friends to refuse it. If the motion was made he should certainly assent to it.
Mr. Peter Mooresaid, he understood, when the hon. and learned gentleman presented the petition, that he had no ulterior object in view—that he did not mean to call for inquiry. But, be that as it might, there was one point they ought to look to before they received such a petition. They ought to consider in what situation the framer of these charges would stand, if he did not prove his allegations, and they ought to have something like security, that he should prove them. If he had gone privately to work, instead of proceeding by public petition, he would have stood a chance of being placed in the pillory, for some of the allegations he had been pleased to make; and which, Mr. Moore said, he believed, were utterly unfounded; for he had himself, some years ago, a good deal of practical experience on the subject. He did not conceive that any case had been made out for going into the committee, but if the House did go into one, he hoped it would be the means of exposing the malicious views of the person who had first agitated the question, and of showing the purpose it was intended to answer. He was not swayed by the number of signatures, because he knew how they had been obtained. Application had been made to himself, and he

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was begged to put his signature. He then said that he believed the whole statement to be utterly false. The House should look with great jealousy and suspicion at a matter which produced a great revenue, of which no one would dispute that the government stood in great need.
Mr. Calvertsaid, that it was with regret that he trespassed upon the time of the House, but he felt it necessary for the purpose of proving to the conviction of the House, that the petition of Mr. Barber Beaumont was a most scandalous petition. The attempt to procure signatures was not confined to one place, but every part of the town was resorted to. He had passed by one of the stations, and he had there seen boys and persons of all descriptions setting down their names. He hoped that the few words which he should have to submit to the House would carry weight with them. Certain charges had been made against the brewers, and among them that of having created a monopoly of an essential article, of mixing deleterious ingredients with it, and of advancing the price at their caprice, and without any justifiable grounds. With regard to the monopoly, which was stated to be confined to 11 houses, although the porter-brewers in London were considerably more numerous, it was only necessary to look to the evidence given before the police committee. Three gentlemen were there examined, one of them was the owner of only one-eighth of the public-houses which he served, and another of one-seventh. That surely would not be a monopoly; for looking to the total number, it was a most ridiculous and absurd charge, and he should say no more upon it. He should have a word or two to offer, however, respecting the capricious wantonness of advancing the price, and he should produce the statement of the person he had alluded to, Mr. Barber Beaumont. The first charge was, that in the year 1802, the price was advanced without any reason whatever. He rather thought, that for that rise, there existed good grounds at the time. These were, that the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer summoned the brewers, and told them, that he should increase the several duties 3s. 4d. a barrel on the beer, 8s. a quarter upon the malt, and 1¼d. and eight-twentieths of a pound on hops. That was a full justification for the advance in price. It was the same in the
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succeeding year, for then the war malt duty of 16 s. per quarter was laid on, and the price advanced 5s. The advance then was after the rate of 17 s. 6d. per quarter on the malt, leaving the brewer a profit of 1s. 6d. That was also a full justification. The petition stated, that at another period, namely in the year 1816, it was equally a matter of surprise, that the brewers had lowered the price of beer, but that the public were very much obliged. But what was the reason of this reduction, but because the war malt duty had ceased, and the 16 s. per quarter taken off? What would have been said, if when the war duty was taken off, the brewers had not done so? It would be too tedious to go through all the different times that alterations had been made; he would, therefore, only say, that the price was fixed, in 1762, at 3½d. a pot, when the price of malt was 195. 6d. a quarter, and hops 50 s. a hundred weight. It continued at 3½d. until malt was at 61 s. 4d., and hops 14 guineas. The brewers were subject to a loss for a great number of years, and he must here allude to an expression of Mr. Barber Beaumont, that when they once fixed the price, they would not fix a losing one. That was not the fact. After the advance in 1799, they made some little profit, but they had previously lost half their capitals. The next advance was in 1801, when malt rose from 61 s. to 84. per quarter. In every instance had the brewers been fully justified. With regard to the beer being rendered injurious to the stomach from the use of deleterious articles, he hoped he should have no occasion to tell the House, that the brewers of London were incapable of introducing poisonous articles into the common beverage of the town, day by day, week by week, and year by year. Of this his hon. friend (Mr. Barclay) had the other night given a convincing proof, when he said, that they must be brought in by cart loads, which could not be done secretly. What, then, could possibly be the consequence but loss of property and loss of capital? That was alone sufficient to convince the House, that no deleterious ingredient could possibly be resorted to. It was practically impossible that any thing could be used besides malt and hops. Legal proceedings had, a few-years ago, been taken against the proprietor of a Sunday newspaper, for the publication of a gross libel, charging the brewers with the use of the deadly night

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shade, the coculus indicus, the nux vomica, and tobacco. The affidavit on which the prosecution was founded, a copy of which he held in his hand, declared that none of the articles charged were used in the brewing of beer, and concluded by saying, that it was composed and made of malt and hops only. But the affidavit was held by the court to be insufficient, because it did not state, that during any specified time they had never used any of the articles alluded to, or that they had always made their beer of malt and hops only. By the advice of the counsel and solicitor, the deponents only negatived the use of the articles stated in the paragraph, but without saying of what the beer was actually compounded, and the next day made a fresh affidavit. They said that not only the articles named were not made use of, but no noxious ingredient whatever was then made use of in the manufacturing, nor while the brewery remained and existed under their control and power at any other time whatever. This was thought sufficient to satisfy the most scrupulous judge in the world. But no the court held that the last affidavit did not go the length of the former one, for it did not state of what the beer was really composed. The rule was not granted, but the parties were allowed to go on the next term. The offender, however, thought proper, in the mean time, to write him a most penitent letter, assuring him that he was not the author, but had only copied the paragraph from another paper; and that if the prosecution was dropped, his paper should be devoted to the brewers in general, and to himself in particular. He had refused any interference upon the occasion; but the prayer of the letter was ultimately complied with, and probably from the reason that the counsel were unable to frame an affidavit that should be satisfactory to the Court. So much for the legal proceedings to justify the brewers for the charge of using deleterious materials—And now to the petition which resulted from the meeting of a few persons on the 26th of January. It was hawked about in every direction. He had seen persons walking in Covent-garden, who assured the people, that by signing the petition, they would reduce the price of beer, and do away monopoly. In short, nothing was done upon it that was not worthy of the dirty place where one set of signatures were taken — the blacking shop in the Strand. By such
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means signatures were obtained from ignorant people, who really knew nothing of the nature of the petition; but they were imposed upon by the assurance, that its effect would be to reduce the price of porter in spite of the brewers, who were described to be a pack of extortioners. Such was the course pursued under the auspices of Mr. Barber Beaumont. He was aware that improper practices had prevailed in some districts in the licensing of public-houses; he had always reprobated such conduct on the part of the magistrates, who certainly carried the system of favouritism to too great a length. For his own part, he never took advantage of any thing of the kind, and he hoped for the introduction of an adequate remedy to the evils complained of.—He would not trouble the House farther than by expressing his sincere regret, that the House did not go into the committee, in order that the character of this Mr. Barber Beaumont might be exposed in its true colours, and that he might be exhibited not only to the House, but to the whole world what he really was—a disappointed man! He became a magistrate, and contrived to get into the commission with the view to his own immediate interest, and not obtaining licenses in the east and in the west, where, if he had succeeded, he would most probably have gone to the north and the south, he had made the present attack. He might, indeed, have some other motive besides that in which he was disappointed, and might expect by appearing solicitous for the public welfare to become a popular candidate for distinction. His first endeavour was, to serve himself by obtaining licenses, but having failed in this, he had been induced, in the bitterness of disappointment, to bring the present charge against the brewers.
Mr. Lockhartobserved, that if this had been the petition of the individual named, with whom he had no sort of acquaintance, he might have declined it; but he had presented the petition of 14,000 persons. It was not the petition of one particular individual, but of that individual, and 14,000others, and although the petition might have been in part signed by those who must be totally ignorant of what they were doing, yet there must be part of the petitioners who were qualified to judge of the price of the article and its flavour, although they might not be aware of the details which the hon. member had entered into. With respect to going about

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canvassing for signatures, it was a system which he greatly reprobated. It was borrowed from the mode that had been adopted in cases of a political nature; and those who introduced it, were, he conceived, liable to great blame. An hon. gentleman had taken a considerable latitude in his observations. He had supposed that some attack was intended upon an establishment. Upon what establishment? Here were eleven or twelve houses —and, if it were felt that a public grievance Was perpetrated by them, what was to prevent individuals from presenting a petition against it? Why should security be given that the petitioners should prove their allegations? If such a principle were once admitted, the right of petition would be completely destroyed. Two hon. gentlemen had denied the statements contained in the petitions; and he was very happy to hear their declaration. He was quite satisfied that no such ingredients were ever used in the breweries of cither of those gentlemen, but how could they pledge themselves for all the other brewers? They were persons of large fortunes and fine principles, and consequently above such arts; but, surely, it did not follow that less honourable men might not have recourse to the practices complained of. With respect to that part of the petition which related to the present system of licensing public-houses, it was evident, from the report of the committee, that some alteration ought to be made; and it would be recollected that a bill had been brought in last session for the purpose, though it was not carried. The hon. gentleman had denominated Mr. Beaumont a disappointed magistrate, who had drawn up this petition from personal motives. But it should be remembered, that he had given evidence before the police committee, and that that committee had coincided in the propriety of his conclusions. He ought not, therefore, to be spoken of merely as a disappointed man, when a committee of that House had thought his evidence worthy of being acted on. In order to give the brewers an opportunity of justifying themselves, he would, with the leave of the House, withdraw his motion, and move instead thereof, "That the said Petition be referred to a committee, to examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their observations thereupon, to the House."
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Sir G. Clarice, seeing a right hon. gentleman in his place, was desirous of putting a question to him, which, he believed, it would be in his power to answer. It would be recollected, that, two years ago, he had introduced a bill to establish the uniformity of weights and measures, which passed that House, but was lost in the House of Peers. A commission, it was then said, would be issued to the royal society, to determine what standard of weights and measures should be adopted. He had last session asked, whether that commission had issued, and if so, what steps had been taken under it? He was informed by the chancellor of the exchequer, that it had not then issued, but that it would in a very short time. He now understood that it had not yet been made out. He therefore Wished to know, what circumstance had occurred to prevent it, and whether it was probable that any commission would speedily be issued? If answered in the negative, he should move for an address to the Prince Regent, praying that a commission should issue immediately after the recess, since he could not bring in a bill on the subject, with any chance of success, till that previous step had been taken.
Mr. Bathurststated, that he could not give the hon. member the information requested, but he would inquire into the subject.

INDEMNITY BILL.
The Attorney Generalhaving moved, "That the bill be now read a third time,"
Sir J. Newportrose to propose the amendments, of which he had given notice. The first referred to a principle, which was recognized in the preamble of the bill, but for which there was no corresponding provision in the bill itself. In. the preamble it was recited as follows:—"Whereas some of the said acts done may not have been strictly justifiable in law, but being done for the preservation of the public peace and safety, it is fit that the persons doing the same should be saved harmless in respect thereof." To the principle of this passage he was quite ready to assent: for it was but just that an act done for the public safety, should be entitled to indemnity. But then, upon, whom, in equity, should the loss, occasioned by that indemnity, fall? Whether should the individual, who had unjustly suffered, be condemned still more to sut-

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fer, by being deprived of redress and of his right of action, or should the damages awarded by any verdict upon that action be paid from the public purse? According to the indisputable principles of common justice it would appear, that any expense or damage incurred by an act done for the public safety, should rather be defrayed from the public purse, than from the purse of the individual who had unjustly suffered through that act. It was, indeed, clear and demonstrable, that where an individual was called upon to suffer for the public safety, the price of that suffering ought not to be paid by that individual, but by the public at large. If, then, this principle was admitted—and he saw no ground upon which it could be disputed—he could not anticipate any valid objection to the amendment which he was about to propose. This amendment he was urged to bring forward, not only because its principle was good in theory, but because he felt its adoption to be necessary from experience. He had seen much of the consequence of indemnity acts in Ireland. Two indemnity acts were passed by the parliament of that country in 1798, and he could speak of their effects, not from the information of others, but from what he himself had witnessed. For what he was about to state, he could pledge his honour and veracity as a gentleman, and as a member of parliament. It related to the case of an honest and respectable trader, who was robbed of his property by an act of indemnity; and that case was enough to convince any candid man, that if an individual suffered for the public safety, the price of that suffering should be defrayed from the public purse. In the course of the year 1798, Mr. Matthew Scott, a respectable and affluent cornfactor, of Car-rick-on-Suir, in the county of Tipperary, was taken into custody by the well-known Thomas Judkin Fitzgerald, upon a charge of sending corn to the rebels at Ross. Tin's charge was preferred against Mr. Scott upon the evidence of a common informer, of the name of Devaney, a wretch whom lord Avanmore, upon a subsequent trial, pronounced one of the most perjured and infamous villains that ever appeared in a court of justice. Mr. Scott utterly denied the charge—demanded a trial—and bail to the amount of 100,000 l. was offered to Fitzgerald, for his appearance upon any prosecution that might be instituted against him. But this offer,
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which he could affirm to have been made, as his (sir J. N.'s) own brother was one of those who were willing to become bail, was peremptorily rejected by Fitzgerald, and Mr. Scott was dragged to the gaol of Clonmel. Yet, after being detained five or six days in duress, he was offered his discharge upon giving 20,000 l. bail, to be forthcoming when called upon. With this proposition, however, Mr. Scott refused to comply, observing to Fitzgerald, "You have blasted my character and deranged my trade in the country, by accusing and arresting me upon a charge of being connected with rebels; I therefore demand a trial, in order that my innocence may be-proved, and my reputation redeemed." The injury, indeed, done to Mr. Scott was such, that he became bankrupt, particularly through a fall which had taken place in the price of corn, against the consequence of which he might have guarded, if at liberty to attend to his business. Yet this gentleman was liberated from his imprisonment without any trial whatever, and without being aware at the time upon whose information he was committed, for he was never confronted with his accuser. Upon his liberation, Mr. Scott brought an action against Fitzgerald; but of the right of obtaining any redress he was robbed by the act of indemnity. Thus a man, most grievously oppressed, was precluded from obtaining any legal redress in consequence of an act of indemnity; and such a case afforded a strong lesson to the House to guard against the repetition of similar injustice, by providing, that if an individual suffered for the public safety, the public purse should pay the price of that safety.—But he could quote many other cases of still greater injustice—of, indeed, unexampled atrocity and barbarity—from the period of Irish history to which he referred. He spoke upon this subject with some feeling of reluctance, because at the period to which he referred, the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh) was the minister of Ire land. He acquitted the noble lord of knowingly countenancing such acts. But it was to be recollected, that after the atrocities related of Fitzgerald had been perpetrated, the act of indemnity to screen him from the consequence of these atrocities was passed by the Irish parliament; nay, that after those atrocities were fully proved upon several trials in the Irish courts of justice, Fitzgerald was created a baronet, and granted the favour of raismg

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a regiment, by which Fitzgerald himself boasted that he realized several thousand pounds. Why, then, should such a man be indemnified? He really believed, that the acts of indemnity then voted by the Irish parliament, served to seal its own ruin: that its character was so completely and irrevocably sacrificed, in the estimation of the Irish people, by these acts, that its extinction, soon afterwards, excited no regret whatever in the public mind. Even after, indeed, those acts were passed, the Irish people shrunk from the parliament, and were ready to seek protection from such a body in an}' government whatever. It was, indeed, the general belief among considerate men in Ireland, that if it were not for these acts of indemnity, the union would not have been carried. Nay, many were forward to say, that the noble lord opposite pressed the adoption of these acts, with a view to render the parliament unpopular, in order to carry the union, but he would not say so. From the odium, however, which attached to the Irish parliament in consequence of those acts, which so completely severed the people from it, he exhorted that House to beware of pursuing a similar course.— Another amendment which he proposed was, to recognize, by a distinct provision, that which some of the advocates of the bill so readily avowed, namely, that persons inflicting undue rigour in the arrest or imprisonment of any individual under the Suspension act, should not be skreened by the measure before the House. If the gentlemen who made the avowal alluded to were candid, he could not conceive any ground upon which they could consistently oppose such an amendment. After expressing a wish to know what was meant in the bill by the words "advised to be done,"—which words were inserted in one of the indemnity acts passed in 1801, namely, that for England, the right hon. baronet proposed his first amendment, that any damages which a jury might award to any one proved to have unjustly suffered in consequence of arrest or imprisonment, or other injury, for the public safety, within the period mentioned in the bill, should be paid out of the public purse. The right hon. baronet concluded by observing, that it was his intention, if the House did not adopt his amendments, to move the recommittal of the bill.
The Speakerobserved, that he felt some difficult)' on the question. He was not aware of any precedent which would au-
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thorize a motion for the recommitment of a bill on the third reading. When a bill originated in that House, the form was, that after it had passed through a committee, it should be ordered to be engrossed; when it came from the other House, the only difference was, that it came engrossed. As to any alterations proposed, it was as open to discuss them in the House as in a committee. But the only time for attaching alterations to a bill that had once come to a third reading, was after it had been read a third time.
A conversation then ensued between Mr. Wynn, sir W. Burroughs, lord Cas-tlereagh, and Mr. Bathurst, when it was agreed that the alterations should be reserved for the passing of the bill, and that the third reading should now be entered on. The question for the third reading being put,
Sir R. Heronsaid, that he could not allow that last opportunity to pass, without avowing his decided opposition to this most unjustifiable bill, and to every measure connected with it. He had too sincere a veneration for the constitution of his country—a constitution that had carried the nation through the most stormy periods of its history, not to feel satisfied that the laws were sufficiently strong to preserve it and the people who lived under it. What security had the people of England for the future against frequent invasions of their personal freedom? The same pretext that was now made subservient to the designs of the ministers would always present themselves. Such a case of justification as they made out was at all limes in their power, because there never was, and probably never would be, a period in which men of profligate morals and ruined fortunes would not be found engaged in some desperate projects against the public tranquillity. When his majesty's ministers had determined on manifesting their displeasure against the country, why had they not the manliness to go at once to the extent of their security? Why divide their system and do half by anticipation and half by retrospection When the Suspension act was opposed on the ground of possible abuse, the argument was, that the aggrieved would have their remedy. When the abuse was alleged in petitions on the table, the answer was—a bill of indemnity. It was thus that ministers kept their solemn pledges. It was by expedients such as these that the people were to be mocked,

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and defrauded of the protection of the constitution. But it was even now recommended, though the loyalty of the country bad been and was untainted, to persevere in the same vigilance, in other words, in the same abuses. Why, then, repeal the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act? There was just as true a ground now for that severity as when it was last session adopted. Now that a dissolution was approaching, it became the object of ministers, by mean endeavours and miserable subterfuges, to hold themselves out to the timid and the pusillanimous as the protectors of the peace and property of the country. Let ministers not deceive themselves. Public opinion in this country had passed its childhood and reached maturity; and to that opinion, soundly and firmly expressed, he would leave it, to appreciate the conduct of his majesty's government.
The question being put, That the Bill be now read a third time, the House divided: Ayes, 82; Noes, 23. The Bill being accordingly read a third time,
Sir John Newportrose, to move, as an amendment, the addition of certain words to the first enacting clause of the bill. His object was to render it more explicit, and to cany into more certain effect the principle which its authors and supporters professed to have in view. They had declared, that it was not their wish or intention to extend indemnity to cases of unnecessary rigour or severity. If they were sincere in this declaration, he did not think it possible that they could object to the amendment which he was about to submit. Such an amendment appeared to him to be necessary, in consequence of the vague and general language in which the clause was expressed, It was desirable that no doubt whatever should exist with regard to the cases to which the indemnity would apply; and that it should be distinctly understood, that it did not refer to cases of imprisonment, longer or more severe than was required by the purposes of the Suspension act. With this view, he should move for leave to bring up a clause, providing that the indemnity granted by the bill was not to be construed as extending to those who had exerciscd any unnecessary cruelty or severity in the apprehension or detension of persons under the act for suspending the Habeas Corpus.
The Attorney Generalrose for the purpose of objecting to the bringing up the
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clause; but it being agreed that it ought in the first instance to be read, he afterwards opposed its reception, on the ground that it was quite unnecessary for the purpose of declaring the true construction of the bill. The law had already secured to individuals the right of seeking redress and compensation for any unnecessary rigour or excess of severity which they might have experienced. The proviso, therefore, now brought forward by the right hon. baronet could not promote the object which he had in view. He recollected, although not then in the House, that in the year 1801 a similar clause had been moved in the indemnity act which passed at that time, and the argument urged in support of it was, that the bill, without this clause, would indemnify all gaolers and other persons for any acts of oppression of which they might have been guilty. But it was then answered, and he begged leave to repeat that answer, that no act in the nature of an indemnity act would prevent any individual from obtaining redress for unjust or unnecessary rigour, if he had in fact been so treated.
Mr. P. Mooreconsidered the bill, in its present shape, as indemnifying ever}' kind of enormity, and as excluding redress for every kind of private injury. The system of employing and protecting, by such means the race of spies and informers was a practice unknown to the old constitutional government of the country. He had opposed all the measures that had been proposed since the year 1792, by means of which a bastard constitution had been formed unknown to the legitimate constitution of England, and under which that venerable fabric could no longer be discovered. He should certainly vote for the clause proposed by his right hon. friend.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that he would apply the case of the petitioner Ogden to the clause now proposed by his right hon. friend. He was aware that it had already called forth the derision of a right hon. gentleman; but when he considered the age of that man, seventy-four years, and the infirmities under which he laboured, he could not help thinking, that to indulge in derision excited by such causes was not a very enviable display. He put the man's guilt or innocence wholly out of the present question. He did not care whether the infirmity of the man had existed previously to his arrest, or was the consequence of his ill treatment; let

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them take either alternative, and he would still contend, that if Ogden was in that dreadful state of health before his arrest, it was an extreme of rigour to have subjected him to the heavy ironing, which was sure to aggravate his agony; and the man who inflicted it thus unnecessarily ought to be punished. But if the disease was the result of the torture, no punishment could be too severe. Now, the question he wished to put to the attorney-general was this—could Nadin, the person who so heavily ironed Ogden, plead the present act of indemnity against an indictment? An answer in the negative from such an authority would go a great way [No, no! from the Opposition], although his hon. friends were mistaken, if they imagined he would accept that admission in preference to the clause of his right hon. friend. He wished the clause might be carried, as the opinion of a judge upon the bench might not coincide with that of the attorney-general. He was fully persuaded that many of the acts done in consequence of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus were unknown to the noble lord at the head of the home department, or to the right hon. gentlemen opposite. But scores of gaolers were to be found who, from want of sense of feeling, thought they were recommending themselves by such conduct to the favour of their superiors.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that with respect to the proposed clause, two questions came to be considered. First, if it were necessary or not; and next, what would be its effect should that necessity not be made out? The law had been clearly laid down by his hon. and learned friend, the attorney-general, who had shown that the clause was unnecessary; and if not necessary it would have a tendency to raise doubts in other cases, as the law did not presume abuse in legal enactments. No bill of indemnity could sanction cruelty and oppression, or be pleaded in justification of it. The bill of indemnity might indeed be pleaded, but the judge would direct the jury to ascertain the fact if any, and what kind of cruelty had been used; and every judge would tell the jury that the act of indemnity was extrajudicial. In the case of Ogden, the allegation of his having been put in irons had been denied, and upon that statement, a jury, should the case be brought before them, would have to decide, as also how far the confinement was justifiable. Nothing could
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be so dangerous to the liberty of the subject as to introduce useless qualifications in such a bill. The bill touched no question as to spies and informers, and only embraced four points; the seizure of arms, of papers, the detention of suspected persons, and the arrest of those who attended tumultuous meetings. By a special proviso, a greater latitude would be given in other matters to the construction of the bill.
Mr. J. H. Smythwas not satisfied with the explanation of the noble lord, and thought the object and principle of the bill would be made clearer and less disputable by the adoption of the clause. The words of the bill were at present extremely general, and applied the indemnity to "all acts or proceedings" under the Suspension act.
Mr. Bathurslobserved, that in 1801 the same point had been mooted, but had been determined. The attorney-general of that day, who was at present at the head of the court in which any actions for redress would be brought, had expressly declared his opinion, that the bill of Indemnity would not protect acts of unnecessary rigour. Honourable gentlemen had chosen to let the bill pass through the committee without stating their objections; and now they wanted to make it a totally new measure. Before he sat down he wished to say a few words respecting a right hon. friend of his, who had just left the House (Mr. Canning), who had been censured for treating with levity a subject of a serious nature. But what were the circumstances to which his right hon. friend had adverted? One, that the individual in question had had for twenty years, the disorder which it was said had been brought on by the duress he had sustained; the other, that by being brought to London, he was placed within the reach of abler professional assistance than he could receive in the country, and that by means of that assistance he had returned home totally cured, and as he himself expressed it "a new man." No doubt could exist that the disease had not been brought on in consequence of Ogden's confinement.
Mr. Lytteltonobserved, that the recent allusions in the speech of a right hon. gentleman to the case of the petitioner, Ogden, violated every rule of decency and public decorum. Not to dwell, however, on so disgusting a subject, he thought this question an extremely fair test of the sincerity of those who introduced the mea-

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sure under consideration. The proposed amendment was extremely simple, and could only operate to render the principle of the bill more plain and indubitable. Why should it not be generally understood, that if cruelty or oppression had been exercised under the powers of the late unhappy Suspension act, the authors of it were liable to be brought to condign punishment? The right hon. gentleman had observed, that the proper time for proposing amendments had gone by, and that they ought to have been submitted in the committee. To this observation he must reply, that the bill had been pressed through its various stages with extreme and indecent haste. For his own part, business of great importance had detained him for some days in the country from his parliamentary duties, and on his return he found that the bill had been most rapidly advancing. Other members were probably in the same predicament; and now that an opportunity offered for making the observations which occurred to them, their mouths, forsooth, were to be closed! If the bill came out of the committee radically erroneous, the present was the time to correct it. It was not the opinion of an attorney-general, given in the House of Commons, that could determine the point. The judge must look at the letter of the law, and unless the House chose to submit their understandings to the quibbles and glosses of lawyers, and especially of lawyers in the pay of the Crown, they would take care that that letter should be perfectly explicit. The object of the bill was to nullify the ordinary law—to legalise that which was illegal. He contended that it would prevent any one of the acts in question from being made the subject of judicial inquiry, so that the parties aggrieved might have redress. The right hon. gentleman had indeed said, that the attorney-general of 1801 who had expressed his opinion that the Indemnity bill would not defeat any action for acts of unnecessary severity, was now lord chief justice of the court of King's-bench. In the first place, however, the actions for redress might not come before that noble and learned lord; and in the second place, if they did, taking the present bill in his hand, he, from the light of experience, or from other causes, might not retain the sentiments that he entertained when attorney-general. The noble lord talked of the hon and learned attorney-general having laid down the law.
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The gentlemen opposite had been so long in the habit of finding that what they said was law in the common acceptation of the phrase, that they began to fancy that every thing they laid down was really law. Things were however not quite come to that pass. Until he found that their opinions were in fact law, he could not be brought to change his sentiments on the present question. Reverting to the whole of the transactions—the reports of the committee—the suspension of the Habeas Corpus—this indemnity bill, &c. he characterised them as forming one of the most impertinent but at the same time one of the most mischievous farces that had ever been played on the political stage: and as exhibiting still greater inconsistencies than any former proceedings of the present ministers, fraught as those proceedings had ever been with the grossest inconsistencies.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he had merely stated, that the case alluded to had been, denied; but if the person felt himself aggrieved, he was not precluded by the bill from proving it before a jury.
Mr. Lytteltonbelieved the noble lord was sincere in what he said; but opinions delivered in that House would not settle the law.
Lord Castlercaghsaid, the question of cruelty could only be decided by a jury. The bill did not take away the opportunity of such a decision.
Sir S. Romillysaid, he was surprised to hear the line of argument which had been pursued by gentlemen on the other side. Was there any thing in this case that could admit of any doubt? Were there any technical words in this clause which a lawyer could understand better than any other man? Here were plain words which every man could comprehend. This act said, that all actions brought for or on account of any act, matter, or thing, should be discharged and made void; and that every person by whom any such act, matter, or thing should have been done, should be freed, acquitted, discharged, and indemnified. Now, they were told, that this act did not mean what it said. It was stated, that it went only to all necessary acts. But; if this was the intention of the gentlemen who framed it, why did they not say so? The bill declared, that all acts whatever should be indemnified. What, then, was to become of the cases of those who had been treated with improper severity and cruelty? The pe-

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titioner, Ogden, whose sufferings had been treated with so much levity and want of feeling, declared, that the infirinity under which he laboured was produced by the weight of fetters. Was this, then, a necessary act? Did this come within the meaning of the bill? If so, the words of this legislative measure had a different meaning in that House from what they had in any other place. He did most conscientiously say, that this was not the construction which could be put upon this act of parliament. The right hon. gentleman who talked about the attorney-general of 1801 said, that his opinion could not fail to have very great weight; but was not that opinion given when he was attorney-general, and urged in support of ministers in the House of Commons? The opinion of an attorney-general was not law: nay, the opinion of a single judge was not law; the opinion of a judge at his chambers, or at Nisi Prius, might be, and often was, over-ruled: and were they now to be told, that because the person who formerly held the situation of attorney-general, had delivered such an opinion, it must be taken to be the law of the land? He would never submit to such doctrine. He knew full well the importance which ought to be attached to the opinions of his majesty's attorney-general in that House. But it seemed, that because gentlemen on his side did not think proper to propose this amendment in a committee; because they were not present at any moment which his majesty's ministers might command; because it was judged expedient to the government that this bill should be passed with the utmost precipitation; therefore it was not proper that this question should be discussed now. If this argument were to be allowed, in what manner could they justify themselves to their constituents— in what way could they hope to excuse themselves to the country—in what word? could they reply to those persons who were suffering from the severities which had been so wantonly inflicted upon them? If his hon. and learned friend, if the noble lord opposite and his colleagues, contended that the words in question meant only necessary acts, why did they refuse to add the word necessary in that clause? He would once more say, that this act of parliament, to be considered in the way which gentlemen asserted, required the amendment which had been proposed.
The Solicitor Generalsaid, that his
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learned friend had declared, that it was proper to insert the word "necessary," but his argument seemed to imply that it should be "unnecessary." Now, in his humble, but unequivocal and conscientious opinion, as the bill at present stood, no lawyer could contend with any prospect of success, that an unnecessary act done for the purpose of apprehending, detaining, &c. was protected by it. The acts, matters, or things, must obviously be necessary; for if not necessary, they could not be done for apprehending, committing, detaining, &c. An act of severity or cruelty was not done for the purpose of apprehending, detaining committing, &c. It must have some other object; and could not be protected by the bill. He could not help thinking, therefore, that the word "necessary" was implied in the present bill, as it had been implied in all other bills so framed. In 1801, lawyers on the opposite side of the House, as distinguished as any that ever sat in parliament, were perfectly satisfied that such was the legal interpretation of the Indemnity bill of that day. If this was the case, it would be pernicious to introduce a clause, or a superfluous word, the only effect of which might be to raise a doubt where no doubt at present existed, and to stimulate to proceedings that might prove highly injurious to the parties instituting them.
Mr. Broughamthought, that when the House saw there was as complete a difference of opinion between the two hon. and learned gentlemen on the construction of the clause in question, as there was between aye and no — when they heard his hon. and learned friend say, that he conscientiously entertained no doubt that the legal construction of the clause was in one way, and the solicitor-general, backed by the attorney-general, that he conscientiously entertained no doubt that it was in another, they would scarcely leave the words of it in so vague and undefined a form. What was the hon. and learned solicitor - general's argument? That there could be no difference of opinion on the clause. But there actually was a difference of opinion on it. And why not, then, insert the explanatory word recommended by his hon. and learned friend? The apprehension of tautology and surplusage!. How long had acts of parliament been so concise in their construction? When had brevity become the style of the statutes? Was it on the introduction of the present bill

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that the love of precision had seized the framers of it? Let the House observe what expedients had been resorted to, to avoid tautology and surplusage in it. The preamble stated, that "divers persons had tumultuously assembled, &c."—"to disturb the public peace," an ordinary man would have thought sufficient; but no—"to disturb the public peace and tranquillity." Again, to cause terror in the minds of his majesty's loyal subjects," might have been supposed sufficiently intelligible; but the framers of the bill, in their love of precision, expressed it—"to cause tenor and intimidation." When an author once got into a certain style, he generally continued it. The hon. and learned gentleman's style, or rather his penmanship (as lord Kenyon once called the composition of an auctioneer, which he did not think deserved the appellation of "style") manifested itself throughout the whole bill. It was declared in it to be necessary that the information which had been obtained of traitorous designs "should remain secret and undisclosed." It then spoke of "actions, suits, indictments and prosecutions," for "any act, matter, or thing, done commanded, ordered, directed, or advised, & c" But there it seemed the hon. and learned gentleman's love of conciseness stopped; for after that no word not strictly or absolutely necessary must be allowed. To men of common understanding it would appear, that as so many words had been introduced into the bill which were certainly not necessary, one word, the necessity of which was even doubtful, might, without great difficulty, be admitted. One single word! It would not cost much to engross it. It would be but a slight deviation from the classical style of drawing acts of parliament, so much insisted on by the hon. and learned gentleman, and it would certainly be very satisfactory to the country, after so much difference of opinion had been expressed on so important a matter. It was, perhaps, unnecessary for him to enter into the arguments of his hon. and learned friends as to the meaning of the words as they had left them. He could not, however, think them so clear as they supposed, especially when they considered the purport of this act. Was it too much to ask, that they should make that clear which the court was required to follow? Did his hon. and learned friend go so far as to state, that the opinion of the lord chief justice
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of the King's-bench, when he was attorney-general in that House, was now to be recognized on the bench? What use, he would ask, could be made of that opinion out of that House? He should like to hear his hon and learned friend tell the chief justice that this opinion was to bind him in the court where he sat, because he had delivered the same opinion on a former occasion. The chief justice would then ask, in what volume of East's Reports is that opinion to be found? To which question his hon. and learned friend would be obliged to answer: It is not contained in any volume of East, but is inserted in Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates. In Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates! the chief justice would say. What authority in this court are Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates? He thought this clause was exceedingly liable to the construction which had been put upon it by his side of the House. The question was, whether putting chains on a man was necessary for the purpose of detaining him, or whether the chains were not so wide of the purpose, that they were not necessary. If the hon. and learned gentlemen on the opposite side were sincere; if they did not mean to justify and to indemnify all acts of persecution and cruelty, they could have no objection to add the word "unnecessary," particularly in an act which was not drawn with all the conciseness of which they boasted, and which they might have employed on the occasion.
Mr. Wynnthought that a clause, such as that proposed by the right hon. baronet, might throw a doubt on other acts of the same description, though not on this. There could, however, be no inconvenience in inserting the word "necessary." It was the more requisite, because there was not one decision on acts of this nature. In the case of a justice of peace who had gone beyond his authority, and had done unnecessary acts, he would ask, if it had ever been held, that he was not as much entitled to notice of action, as one who was proceeded against after having acted properly? If so, the word "necessary" was by no means superfluous in the present case.
Sir John Newportthen withdrew his amendment.
Sir W. Burroughs, after reminding the House that the enacting clause proposed an indemnity for any acts whatever done under the suspension, proposed a clause

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to prevent its including cases where those acts were done maliciously and without probable cause. This clause differed from that proposed by his right hon. friend, as it was not confined to gaolers, but extended to malicious informations, and malicious acts done by magistrates, or police officers. He agreed, that where a magistrate made a slip, not malo animo, he ought to be protected, as he was by the 24th of Geo. 2nd, which entitled him to one month's notice of action, and limited proceedings against him in six months; but if he acted maliciously, he ought not to be protected; and that was the case his clause meant to provide for.
The Attorney-Generalcontended, that this clause would defeat the whole object of the bill. Upon what principle was the bill founded? It was founded on the presumption, that the acts for which indemnity was provided, were done for the public safety, and that the persons to be indemnified had acted honestly, fairly, and bona fide, and therefore they ought to be freed from the necessity of producing, in a court of justice, the evidence on which they acted, as the production of such evidence would be attended with danger. And yet the hon. baronet proposed a clause, which would have the effect of forcing them to lay all the evidence on which they acted before courts of justice; for how could a magistrate or secretary of state rebut an allegation of malice, or having acted without probable grounds, without disclosing all the circumstances on which he acted? If the House wished to reject the bill, in the name of Heaven let it be rejected; but let them not pass the bill, and adopt at the same time a clause which was contrary to the principle of it, and would completely undermine it.
The clause was negatived.
Sir W. Burroughsrose to propose as an amendment, that, after that part of the preamble, "And whereas, in case the acts and proceedings of the several persons concerned or employed in such apprehending, committing, imprisoning, and detaining in custody, and dispersing, and seizing, and searching, as aforesaid, should be called in question, it may be impossible for them to justify or defend the same," the words immediately following be left out—"without an open disclosure of the information given, and the means by which the said traitorous designs and unlawful purposes were discovered; and it is necessary, for the safety and protection
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of the persons by whose information and means the same have been discovered, and for the future prevention of similar practices, that such information and means should remain secret and undisclosed."— In the six bills of indemnity which had been passed since the Revolution, this recital was not to be found in any of them, with the exception of the bill of 1801. Some of them were followed by prosecutions and executions, but yet nothing of this import was found in the preamble of an act of indemnity. He saw no reason for introducing it now, particularly when the report declared that the mass of the population had continued loyal.
Sir F. Floodrose, amidst loud cries of question! The bill, in all its parts, he was pre-pared to support. It had obtained, he said, the test of the House of Lords—[Order, order!]—by a great majority; and the discontented on the other side of the House, might be very well satisfied with the great majorities that voted for it in every stage. Nothing, however, would content them but long declamatory speeches, ad captandum valgus; falsely imagining that they could thereby please their constituents before a general election. They were mistaken. Their speeches and their declamations went for nothing; not only with the greater part of the House, but with the people outside also. The bill was founded upon necessity—upon the report of the most respectable and the first characters in the country, one of which was the noble secretary for the fo-reign department. One of the papers had misstated what he said the other night: he did not wish that the duke of Welling-ton had been upon the committee; his words were, that he was very glad that his countryman, the noble secretary for foreign affairs, was a member of it, because no person was more fit to be so. He had reconciled the contending powers of all countries, and gloriousty effected a peace. He gloried also in his other countryman, the duke of Wellington; he had saved the world; but he (sir F. Flood) had never mentioned one word about his being on the committee. Thanks to the loyalty of the people of Ireland—thanks to the probity of her magistrates—thanks to the excellence of her government, it had not been found necessary to extend the Suspension act to Ireland. She had set an example to England; and, therefore, he was sorry to hear a right hon. baronet going back to cruelties committed twenty

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years ago in Ireland, and quoting them as examples for this country. The statute of limitations would prevent the recurrence of such times, and they should not be mentioned at all. He wondered to hear that right hon. baronet recommend that any damages incurred should be paid out of the public money. Was this economy? It was curious and strange, he must say, to hear such language coming from a person who had filled the place of chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, and filled it very well too, and with great benefit to his country. He voted for this bill, not as a party man; he did not belong to either side of the House. He supported it as an independent member of parliament. He would not say any more. He did not rise for the love of talking; for he would rather, any day, hear others speak than himself.
The amendment was negatived.
Sir J. Newport Sir J. Newport moved an amendment, providing that payment should be made from the public revenue of such damages and costs as should be awarded to any aggrieved person in a court of justice. This principle was, he said, recognized in the case of vessels captured illegally, when costs and damages were awarded against the captors, if it appeared that they had acted with a view to the advancement of the public service. In such case, the costs and damages were allowed out of the droits of admiralty. Why should not the public pay the price of its own safety? Anxious as he always was for public economy, he should never look for it at the expense of a dereliction of duty—he should not attempt to rob individuals, or avoid throwing on the public purse, instead of throwing on individuals, what was necessary for the public safety.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that the object of the bill was, to prevent the necessity of laying the evidence on which magistrates or others acted, before a jury; and yet this clause made the public pay damages and costs. Damages could only be given after a discussion of all the facts and circum-stances before a jury; because it would not be contended, that any damages which any body could guess at, should be paid out of the public coffers of the state. They could not adopt this clause without making the preamble a complete collection of unintelligible nonsense.
Sir John Newportsaid, that he wished so to alter the preamble as that the House should afterwards be obliged to
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alter the enactments. He thought these enactments ought not to be agreed to, as they were in every sense objectionable, and he wished, by means of the proposed amendment, to put the bill into such a shape as that the preamble, as altered, should be carried into execution by a change in the clauses which followed.
Mr. W. Smiththought that the bill, as proposed, had in view, not the safety of the state, but the security of a few individuals. It acted only for one party, but that party which he maintained was most injured, were by the present bill deprived of all means of redress. It went upon the unconstitutional principle, that all those who were arrested were guilty, whereas, the presumption of law was that they were innocent until it was otherwise proved. This bill shut every door of redress on those who had suffered in their persons or characters. He conceived an opportunity should be afforded to them to prove their innocence, and that the expenses incurred by the parties against whom actions might be brought, should be borne by the public.
The amendment was negatived.
Sir W Burroughssaid, that the object of the bill was not only to protect the secretary of state, the privy council, and the magistrates, but all persons who were in any way concerned in the late arrests, imprisonments, and searching of houses. This was most objectionable, because the same protection which might be deemed necessary for magistrates and others, ought not to be extended to those persons who, without any warrant or authority, entered the houses of individuals to search for papers. He therefore should move as an amendment to the preamble, that after the words "all proceedings whatsoever against," the words "any person or persons" should be omitted, for the purpose of inserting the following: "his majesty's secretary of state, the members of the privy council, all magistrates, peace officers, and constables." By this means, the persons engaged in the suppression of riots and arrest of persons would be sufficiently protected by the bill, and it would not be extended to those whom the laws ought not to protect.
The Attorney Generalobserved, that as far as the searching houses for papers, & c. was concerned, the bill was meant only to protect those who searched the houses of persons who were in custody or

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who had been afterwards arrested, or those who had been engaged in riotous assemblies, & c. It did not go to protect those who had entered without authority to search houses under other circumstances. The amendment was therefore unnecessary."
The amendment was negatived.
Mr. Brougham Mr. Brougham moved, that after the words "for or on account of any act, matter, or thing, by him or them done or commanded, ordered, directed, or advised to be done since the 26th day of January 1817,"there be added the words "which may have been necessary."
The Attorney Generalobjected to this amendment as superfluous. By the proper interpretation of the bill, and of every statute similarly worded, the protection afforded was understood only to extend to such acts as were necessary for accomplishing the objects in view. A magistrate was supposed to commit no act of rigour which was not called for in execution of the duty imposed upon him. To adopt the amendment, therefore, would be introducing useless words; but this would not be the only evil. The adoption of the amendment would excite doubts as to the enactment of other statutes where similar words were omitted. All laws regarding the conduct of magistrates supposed them to be liable to damages for excess of rigour in executing their duty: but from the first to the last statute in the statute book, the words "acts which may be necessary," had not been introduced.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the hon. and learned gentleman, who opposed the amendment on the common principles of law, ought to have remembered that the present bill was a violation of all law, and, therefore, that it ought not to be tried by such a test. He was of opinion, that the language of the bill should be rendered as precise, and as guarded as possible, and he put it to the House, whether he was asking too much when he requested them not to object to the insertion of three or four words, not limiting the indemnity claimed by ministers, but defining the extent to which the law of the country had been set at nought?
Mr. Lockhartwas against any alteration in the bill. As it now stood it did not preclude any individual from the sort of remedy in a court of justice which he could expect to have, if the words proposed were introduced.
Mr. Wynnhad no objection to the
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words being added, as they would not weaken the force of the bill.
The House then divided on Mr. Brougham's amendment: Ayes, 39; Noes, 149. On the question, That the bill do pass,
Mr. Broughamsaid, he did not wish to provoke any discussion in the present stage of the measure, but he was anxious to protest on his own part, and on the part of his hon. friends, against its being imagined that they had less objection to the passing of the bill, either in consequence of the arguments which were urged in support of it, or from the circumstance of their attempting to qualify it by amendments. He and they were as desirous at that moment as before to avow their hostility to the detestable principle upon which the whole bill was founded.
Mr. Tierneysaid, it was his intention, on a former evening, to have delivered his opinions on the subject; but he had abandoned that intention from a conviction that it was quite unnecessary after the speeches of his hon. and learned friend who had just quitted his place (sir S. Romilly), and his hon. and learned friend who had just sat down. He should avail himself, however, of the present opportunity to declare, that he believed this to be one of the most detestable measures that ever was introduced into parliament.
Mr. Wynnwas of opinion that the measure was a necessary one.
Mr.Peter Mooreentered his protest against a bill so fraught with injustice.
The bill was then passed.