Commons Sitting of 16 June 1817

SPIES AND INFORMERS.
Sir F. Burdettrose to call the attention of the House to a subject of the greatest importance, both to the welfare of the government and to the liberty of the subject. He had found it stated in a Leeds paper, which he had read that morning, that a person of the name of Oliver had been in the north, trying to excite people to illegal acts, for the purpose of entrapping them. The hon. baronet then read the following statement contained in the second edition of the Leeds Mercury:—
"Since the first addition of our paper was prepared for the press, the highly important fact has been communicated to us, from a respectable quarter, that the plot referred to in the above statement has been got up under the instigation of an agent from London, and that the principal offender has been suffered to escape with impunity. In confirmation of this fact, which was communicated to us at a late hour yesterday afternoon, we were refer

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red to Mr. Willans, a bookseller, in Dewsbury. To develope a transaction so important, not only to the government and the people of this country in general, but so intimately connected with the liberty and lives of the accused, we felt it to be our imperious duty to repair to Dewsbury, without a moment's delay, and there to ascertain, on the spot, the truth of the allegation.— As a precautionary measure, we drove to the House of one of the first merchant manufacturers in the town, and Mr. Willans being sent for, he suggested, that in order to render the investigation complete, Mr. John Dickinson, a linen-draper in that place, should be invited to attend. This suggestion being adopted, Mr. Dickinson also attended, and the following is the result of our investigation into the mysterious transactions which formed the subject of our inquiry:—Mr. Willans stated, and the truth of his assertions he is willing to confirm by his solemn affirmation, that about two months ago, a person of the name of Oliver called upon him, and introduced himself as a parliamentary reformer, sent from London, to ascertain the dispositions of the people in the country. This man he describes as a person of genteel appearance and good address, nearly six feet high, of erect figure, light hair, red and rather large whiskers, and a full face, a little pitted with the small-pox. His usual dress, he says, was a light fashionable-coloured brown coat, black waistcoat, dark blue mixture pantaloons, and Wellington boots. The description of such a character is important, and may form a clue to farther discoveries, connected with his proceedings in other parts of the country. Mr. Oliver, he says, called upon him several times after his first introduction, and in one of his subsequent calls, said, that as it was quite obvious that government would not listen to the petitions of the people, it had now become necessary that they should be compelled to attend to their demands.—These insinuations Mr. Willans silenced by the observation, that he could not engage in any proceeding that implied the use of force, or the shedding of human blood.—On another occasion, Mr. Oliver told him, that he (Oliver) was one of a committee of five that effected the escape of young Watson, and that if Thistlewood had had equally prudent counsels, he would also have escaped. In fact the whole tenour of Oliver's conversation went to show that he had traitorous designs,
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and that he was in league with traitors.— Such conversation, as might be supposed, awaked Mr. Willans's suspicions, and the intercourse between them had almost ceased, when, on Friday morning last, the day the ten persons were arrested at Thornhill Lees, near Dewsbury, he again called at Mr. Willans's shop between ten and eleven o'clock, and Mr. Willans being absent on business, he begged that his wife would tell him, that a meeting of delegates was to be held on that day at Thornhill, and earnestly requested that she would use her influence to prevail upon her husband to attend. Before Oliver quitted Dewsbury to attend the meeting, he called again at the shop, when he found Mr. Willans had returned. He accordingly renewed his solicitations to Mr. W. to attend the meeting, telling him at the same time, that his friends in London "were almost heart-broken that the people in the country were so quiet." At the same time he informed him, that he had walked over from Leeds that morning, and two persons, supposed to be Leeds men, appeared in his train. Unmoved by Oliver's solicitations, Mr. Willans persisted in his resolution not to attend the meeting, and owing to his obstinacy, Dewsbury was prevented from swelling the number of deputies so called.—"At the appointed time the meeting was held at Thornhill Lees, and the toils being set, eleven deputies, Mr. Oliver being of the number, were taken by a detachment of cavalry, and all except Mr. Oliver, who had the good fortune to be liberated, were conveyed to Wakefield in custody. While the examinations were proceeding at the court-house, Mr. Oliver had repaired to his quarters, which were the Strafford arms, that is, the head Inn in Wakefield. Here, to his great consternation and confusion, he was recognized by Mr. John Dickinson, who had seen him at Dewsbury, and had heard that he was a leading man at the private meetings. Advancing up to Oliver, Mr. Dickinson addressed him, and the following conversation took place: "Mr. Dickinson— How does it happen, Mr. Oliver, that you, who appear to have taken so leading a part in the meetings, are at liberty, while your associates are likely to be sent in custody to London?"—"Mr. Oliver— No papers were found upon me, and being a stranger, the persons who apprehended us were obliged to set me at liberty."—These observations were made in a very hurried

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manner, and Mr. Oliver withdrew to take a seat in the Wakefield coach to Leeds. As soon as Mr. Oliver had placed himself in the coach, a servant in livery stepped up to him, and, moving his hat, entered into conversation with him. This circumstance, combined with the extraordinary reasons that Oliver had given for his liberation, induced Mr. Dickinson to inquire of the servant, after the coach had left the inn, if he knew that gentleman? to which the servant replied, that he had seen him at Campsall, and he had driven him a few days before in his master's tandem from that place to the Red house to meet the coach. On receiving this information, Mr. Dickinson inquired who his master was? to which the servant replied, General Byng. He then left him, and asked Mr. Tyler, who keeps the Strafford Arms, if he knew Oliver? to which Mr. Tyler replied, that he had been there several times—that he believed he was from London—and that several London letters had come directed to him at that inn. From every thing we have heard of the character and conduct of General Byng, we are persuaded that he has been merely the medium for receiving Oliver's information, and that whoever may have employed this double-distilled traitor, the general has acted merely in the discharge of his official duty. But every circumstance we have just related, proves, that somebody has employed him, and the question is—who were his employers? What the trade of this man may be, we cannot pretend to say—but that he is a green bag maker by profession, is, we think, sufficiently obvious."
Now, continued the hon. baronet, it was stated, that this Oliver was a spy of government, and the report which had been recently produced in another place acknowledged that such persons had been actually employed by government. The greatest exertions, it appeared, had been used by such characters to excite others to illegal acts, and for this they were paid and rewarded by ministers. Nothing, he thought, could be more atrocious, especially in these times of wretchedness and distress, than for government to hire and pay people to excite sedition. This was, indeed, an act so atrocious, so infamous, so diabolical, that he was almost ashamed to say he could give credit to the statement that ministers had been guilty of such transactions. The fact, however, of such persons having been engaged, and
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afterwards rewarded by the government, could not be denied. The character of Reynolds had been lately before the House; he was a notorious spy, and had committed the most atrocious acts—acts at which human nature shuddered; but now he was under the auspices of government, and had become a person of great splendour and affluence. This infamous man had been frequently summoned on juries to sit on the lives of the people of England; nay, he had been one of the grand jury who found the bill against the unfortunate persons who were now under trial for high treason [Hear, hear].
Mr. Wynnrose to order. He did not mean to say, that the hon. baronet was out of order, but he should be equally in order in moving that strangers should withdraw. [Loud shouts of Hear from the ministerial benches, which were repeated by the opposite side].
Mr. Broughamthen rose and moved, that the House do immediately adjourn. This motion was seconded by the hon. Mr. Bennet. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. During our absence, the House divided three times on the question of adjournment. On the first division the numbers were. Ayes, 29; Noes, 162. On the second division. Ayes, 26; Noes 157. On the third division. Ayes, 26; Noes, 136. On our re-admission to the gallery we found the House in a committee of supply, on the Army Extraordinaries.
Mr. Bennetwished to ask the noble lord whether Mr. Reynolds, of infamous memory, was appointed consul-general to Malta?
Lord Castlereaghbelieved that several juries had given credit to Mr. Reynolds testimony, and he did not understand why the hon. member should attach infamy to Mr. Reynolds's character, unless it rendered a man infamous to be instrumental in the discovery of treasonable practices. Mr. Reynolds had been employed in his majesty's service in Portugal, and also in the post-office at Dublin, and had performed his duties with great integrity and credit; and therefore he had no hesitation in recommending him as consul-general to Malta.
Mr. Bennetdid not impute any discredit to a man for coming forward and giving his evidence On such occasions, but he held, that a man who had been an accomplice in the crime, and who betrayed his associates, was an individual on whom no reliance could be afterwards placed.
Lord Castlereaghrepeated, that he did not consider it any degradation to a man to give his evidence in a court of justice in support of the laws. He had never heard any imputation against Mr. Reynolds's personal character, or the evidence which he had given; nor had he heard of any act discreditable to him, except his having been engaged in a rebellion, for which he had made the best atonement in his power.
Sir F. Burdettalways understood that Mr. Reynolds was a man of notoriously infamous character. It had been proved on a trial, in which he gave evidence, that he had been guilty of the most atrocious crimes. Captain Lymington and his brother had sworn, that he had poisoned their mother; this stood recorded on the printed trial; and that he had broken open some private drawers, from which he had taken many hundred pounds. Many other circumstances were sworn to, as appeared in the printed trial. It was sworn on that occasion, that he was not worthy of being credited on his oath; but he had since become an important personage, and the protegé of his majesty's government. This was an infamy attaching to the noble lord and his colleagues, which they could not get over without some explanation. He would speedily take some means of bringing the subject under the consideration of the House, as it was necessary that this heavy charge against government should be cleared up.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that such a motion would unquestionably be strictly parliamentary. As to the assertion on the trial, that Mr. Reynolds ought not to be believed on his oath, successive juries had believed him on his oath, and parliament also had believed him. He did not think Mr. Reynolds's character was tainted with any thing more than rebellion, though that was a great taint: but he had avowed his error, had expressed his contrition, and had manifested his sincerity in a court of justice, by bringing traitors to deserved punishment.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, his view of this matter had no reference to any particular government. He would reprobate such conduct by whatever government it was countenanced. With respect to the general character of spies and informers, they might merit their reward, but to hold them up as objects of respect was most extraordinary; and in regard to the credit due to their testimony, no jury ought to believe
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it, unless it was strongly corroborated by other witnesses of unimpeachable integrity.
Mr. Wynndesired that the question before the House might be read.
Sir F. Burdettapprehended, that in a committee of supply the subject was quite open to discussion. He now asked the noble lord, did Reynolds receive a pension from the government?
Lord Castlereagh gave no reply.
Mr. Broughamobserved that, notwithstanding the enforcement of standing orders every question of supply was necessarily connected with the grievances of the people. The Crown demanded the money; the Commons had a right to demand a redress of grievances, and it was no light matter to have persons like Reynolds quartered upon them as pensioners. What would the country say, when they heard that the noble lord intended to send forth a person of this degraded cast as his majesty's consul-general to a foreign part? What would the continental ministers say, when they became acquainted with the character of this representative of the government? In all commercial concerns, he was to represent the government, at least as far as concerned the merchants of this country. Was it to be maintained seriously, that a person clothed with a character of a spy and an informer was to hold this situation? This, he believed, was the first time that any man had ventured in that House to pass a panegyric on spies and informers—persons of such infamy, that no one judge in England, or in Ireland either, would desire a jury to take cognizance of a case where their evidence was not fully and clearly corroborated. This Mr. Reynolds, it appeared, had for lucre come forward to swear (no matter whether truly or falsely) against his associates; he had turned informer, and this was sufficient to stamp him with all the infamy that attached to such characters, notwithstanding all the subtlety of the noble lord. He could not sufficiently express his abhorrence of such a character, nor his grief to hear the eulogium which the noble lord had thought proper to pronounce on it.
Lord Castlereaghappealed to the House whether he had pronounced any eulogium on Mr. Reynolds. He had said, that Mr. Reynolds had been engaged in the rebellion, but that he had afterwards avowed his error, and discharged his duties with, fidelity.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that if the hon. baronet had objected to the supply because the question of grievance had not been answered, he should not have interfered. He did not think, however, that the question of what credit a jury would give to such a witness was a grievance. Certainly, that House had always held, that grievances might be inquired into when the Crown came to demand a supply.
Mr. Curwenthought it most disgraceful in ministers to employ such a man as Reynolds in any public situation. He trusted that the noble lord would undo what had been done on this subject; because, though Reynolds might be rewarded for his services, it certainly was not fit to hold him up as a person to be employed in a public capacity.
The resolutions were then agreed to.