Commons Sitting of 6 June 1817

LORD COLCHESTER.
The Speaker reported lord Colchester's Answer to Vote of Thanks of yesterday; as follows:
"London, 6 June 1817.
"Sir;— I have the honour to acknowledge your letter of this day, communicating to me, a resolution of the House of Commons, by which the House is pleased to express its thanks to me for my services as their Speaker, during the period in which I have been called upon to fill
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that high office. And having devoted the best years of my health and strength to the service of the House of Commons, with the consciousness that during that long period, I have never ceased to exert my best endeavours to execute the various duties of the station which I held by their favour, however inadequately those duties may have been performed, I beg you will assure the House of the deep and lasting gratitude with which I now receive this distinguished testimony of its approbation.— I request also that you, Sir, will be pleased to accept my best thanks for the expressions of kindness with which you have conveyed to me this communication. I have the honor to be, &c
To the right hon. COLCHESTER.
the Speaker, & c. & c.
Lord Castlereagh then reported the Answer of the Prince Regent to the Address of yesterday. It was as follows: —
"The Prince Regent has the justest sense of the long services and great merit of Charles lord Colchester, late Speaker of the House of Commons: and, in the name and on the behalf of his majesty, had already taken the same into his consideration.
"The Prince Regent is desirous, in compliance with the wishes of his majesty's faithful Commons, to confer upon the said lord Colchester some further signal mark of his favour; but, as the same cannot be effectually granted and secured without the concurrence of parliament, his royal highness recommends to the House of Commons the adoption of such measures as may be necessary for the accomplishment of this purpose."
Ordered, That the House do resolve itself into a Committee on the said Answer on Monday next.

ALE-HOUSES LICENCES REGULATION BILL.
Mr. Bennetrose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of Ale-houses throughout the kingdom. The report of the committee, which had been presented went at great length into the existing management of those houses; but it was not his intention to detain the House long, as he had but a few observations to make. The motion was brought forward in consequence of a vote of the committee, which had sat, as the House knew, during the greater part of last session, and a considerable part of the present, for the pur-

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pose of inquiring into the state of the police of the metropolis. It early occurred to them, that a large proportion of the vice and immorality which prevailed might be traced to the bad system at present acted upon, in licensing and regulating public Houses. It was therefore thought expedient to make a special and distinct report upon that subject. It would be seen by the evidence in that report, not only that houses of the most nefarious kind were permitted to exist, but that they existed with the full countenance and concurrence of some of the police officers who frequented them, and who had a fellow feeling with the persons assembled in them. There were above 200 houses of that description in London, in which a nightly and promiscuous assemblage took place, not only of men and women, but of boys and girls, of eight, nine, ten, and eleven years of age. In some of them there was established a sort of regular court of justice, at the head of which a jew presided, before whom was brought all the pillage and profits of the day and night, and who superintended their regular distribution. He knew one instance, of a boy not 13 years old, who, in the course of one night disposed of property in one of those houses to the amount of 100 l. The propriety of putting down such monstrous abuses, would be admitted by every one. The law by which all public houses were at present governed, was the 29th of George 2nd. According to that law, it was necessary that any person applying for a licence, should have a testimonial of character; and that certain recognizances should be entered into. But a regular system of evasion was practised, which rendered both these precautions nugatory. Haifa crown would, at any time, purchase the requisite character, and as to the recognizances, they were mere nonsense. The clerk had a list of publicans alphabetically arranged, according to which list A. became security for B., B. for C, and so on. In that way, both the character and the recognizances became a mere nullity. It was his intention, if the House permitted him to bring in the bill, to provide that bona fide characters should he given, not only by persons residing in the parish where the public house was to be set up, but by persons belonging to the parish where the publican himself lived, and where, consequently he would be well known. With respect to the recognizances, he would specifically enumerate
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the different kinds of offences by which they would become forfeited; and the publican himself should be bound in a greater sum of money, as well as the other party, than was now required. Upon transgressing any of the rules laid down for his conduct, he should be liable to a greater fine than could be inflicted at present; upon a second transgression, the fine should be still farther increased; and upon a third, it should be imperative for the magistrates to send him before a jury at the Quarter Sessions. If found guilty there, his recognizances to be forfeited, his licence taken away, and he to be declared incapable of keeping a public house afterwards. His house was to be shut up, and the licence suspended, whenever he was sent before a jury, and not to be reopened till the general licensing day, when it was to be considered as a new house. Another part of the bill would go to prevent that system which now prevailed of brewers compelling their tenants to use only their own beer— a system which completely deprived the public off the advantage of having a good and wholesome beverage. He meant to introduce a clause, declaring such contracts between brewers and publicans null and void, and leaving the latter at full liberty to obtain their beer wherever they could get it best. He was aware that those contracts were already so considered in the courts of justice, where it had always been laid down, whenever such cases came before them, that the brewer was bound to supply good beer, or else the publican had a right to obtain it elsewhere. The effect of the clause in question would be to open the trade, and greatly to benefit the public. The next important point which would be embraced in the bill, was an alteration in the powers now possessed by magistrates of refusing and taking away licenses at their own discretion. That was a power, he contended, with which no man ought to be invested; a power which enabled a magistrate, from whim, caprice, or resentment, to reduce an individual from a state of comparative opulence to one of utter pauperism. Many instances of that kind had come to the knowledge of the committee. It was no answer to tell him, that the magistrates could be called to an account for their conduct. They could not be called to any account, unless they assigned a corrupt reason for refusing or revoking a license. So long as they kept themselves snug and quiet in

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their licensing room, and grounds for their proceeding, the duals aggrieved were wholly without redress. By the alteration which he proposed to make, the property of publicans would be put where it ought to be put, where, in fact, all other property was put, in the hands of a jury. He should therefore move, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for amending the laws for regulating the manner of licensing alehouses in that part of the united kingdom called England, and for the more effectually preventing disorders therein."
Mr. Stuart Wortleythought this proceeding of his hon. friend very extraordinary. A committee, of which he was chairman, had been appointed to inquire into the police of the metropolis, and had produced a report which was as yet in the hands of very few members; yet upon this report of a partial case, the information contained in which was still unknown, he moved for leave to bring in a bill for the whole kingdom. He not only objected to the mode and the hurry of the measure, but would oppose some of its most important clauses. He could not allow the power of depriving publicans of their licenses to be taken from the magistrates, which he conceived to be the only great check which the laws had imposed upon irregularities, and the only safe-guard of public morals, till he heard it proved that they had misconducted themselves in so important an exercise of their authority.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowgave the hon. member high praise for the perseverance and labour he and the committee had bestowed on the subject. Every country gentleman must have felt that the most painful part of their duty consisted in being obliged to stop the license or permit the abuse, and that no middle course existed to check the mal-conduct of the publican.
Mr. Sumnersaw no irregularity in the manner of introducing this bill. It might have been introduced on the suggestion of the hon. member, without any recommendation on the part of the committee, but being backed by that recommendation, it came with more force.
Mr. Shaw Lefevrepronounced a high panegyric on the labours of the committee and his hon. friend. The evil called loudly for remedy, and now, when it was proposed that something should be done effectually, it was but an ungracious re-
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turn to that committee to object a point of supposed irregularity.
Mr. Goochconsidered the hon. member entitled to much praise for the pains he had bestowed in investigating the evil complained of.
Leave was then given, and the bill was brought in and read a first time.

EXTENTS IN AID—PETITION OF MR. EVENNETT.
Mr. W. Smithstated, that he held in his hand a Petition which appeared to him to be of a most extraordinary nature. It was signed by Thomas Evennett, formerly a farmer of Waltham-Abbey, in the county of Essex, and had been sent to him by a barrister, who, he apprehended, had been employed by the petitioner in the course of the transactions of which it complained. The cause of complaint was the process, and execution upon an Extent in Aid; and he would venture to say that a greater complication of injuries had never been committed upon an individual, than in the present instance, in the course of what was called law and justice. About 60 weeks ago the whole of this person's property of every kind had been seized, and he himself had laid in gaol ever since. He could not obtain his discharge either by the insolvent act or a commission of bankruptcy, because his creditor was nominally a debtor to the Crown. The prosecution was at the suit of a Mr. Bignold, a banker at Norwich, and secretary to the Norwich Insurance company, and he had succeeded in obtaining this extent from the court of Exchequer, although the debt in question was due to him in his capacity of a private banker, by representing himself to be liable to government for the securities furnished by the Insurance company for the satisfaction of the claims of the revenue. It was quite clear, however, that he was no more liable, though he might be the person sued on the part of the society, than any other subscriber or proprietor; and if he had employed the funds of the society in his banking concerns, that was his own fault, and what indeed he had no right to do; it being in his power, and it being his duty at the same time, to keep these funds in a separate chest. This, however, was the only possible view in, which he could be indirectly regarded as a debtor to the Crown, and of course entitled to sue out this sort of execution against his own private debtors; and a more scandalous or fraudulent pretence,

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applied to more oppressive purposes, he had never known. This poor man, who was sixty years of age, had been afflicted since his confinement with a paralytic stroke; he had been compelled to depend for sustenance on the charity of his neighbours; the creditor, under this species of execution, not being obliged to contribute to his support; and he now prayed for such relief, as the House in its wisdom might think proper to afford him.
After a few words from Mr. Protheroe, sir J. Newport, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Barclay, the Petition was read, and ordered to be printed.

CIVIL SERVICES COMPENSATION BILL.
On the order of the day for going into the committee on this bill,
Mr. Calcraftfelt it his duty to state, that as a member of that committee which had recommended this bill, he was bound to say that he did then, and still would approve of the principle of the bill as a source of much good. If he knew a plan to get rid of the sinecures without compensation, he would adopt it, but he knew none; and when he considered that by this plan they took away 90 or 100,000 l. from the Crown, and gave it back only 42,000 l. he conceived it certainly a good bargain for the public. The power of the Crown was thus abridged considerably, and as it could not be expected sinecurists would relinquish their situations without an equivalent, he thought this bill a very proper plan.
Mr. Boswellentered his protest against the provisions of this and the other bills connected with it, on the ground of their not being meant to promote real economy; for certainly had that been their object, those ancient offices would not have been at all touched, at least so early. He did not see on what grounds sinecures should be branded with infamy, merely because in one or two instances they had been abused.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that sinecure had fallen into such disrepute country, that they could be no considered as honourable rewards for services, which they were formerly intended to be. He begged to ask the noble lord, whether he had understood him correctly on a former occasion, that, in case the bill for suppressing these offices failed, the Crown would be advised to withhold its consent from the compensation bill?
Lord Castlereaghhad no difficulty in stating, that ministers would do every thing in good faith with respect to this measure, both as regarded their official influence and their individual exertions.
The House then resolved itself into the committee, in which a conversation took place on the various clauses of the bill. Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald intimated, that as he had resigned the office of chancellor of the Irish exchequer, he would not accept of any salary or emolument under this bill.