Commons Sitting of 19 February 1817

LORDS OF THE ADMIRALTY.
After a ballot had taken place to try the merits of the Wootton Basset Election, the chancellor of the exchequer moved, that the House at its rising do adjourn to Friday.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that nothing was further from his intention than to throw any obstacles in the way of this motion, nor should he have in the least objected to it, excepting for the circumstance which had occurred last night. The motion of his hon. friend (sir M. W. Ridley), was then to have been discussed; but, for reasons which all might guess, none of his majesty's ministers were present, and there was such a deficiency in point of numbers, as to render it impossible that a House should be held. Of the deep importance of the question which should then have been discussed, he was sure the House had no occasion to be reminded, and therefore he could not but deeply regret that one night had been lost, and that it was now proposed to lose another day. That there was an immense pressure of business before the House, all could not but know, and it was surely deeply to be lamented that any delay whatever should take place. The motion of his hon. friend, although of such importance in every point of view could not come on this week, in consequence of no notice of it being given, and another important motion coming on before the House on Friday, while there was every probability also of Monday and Tuesday being engaged. It was not difficult to see that the object of ministers was, to put off as long as possible the discussion of this truly important question. It was morally impossible that they should not have known that the discussion was fixed for last night; and as he was aware they would not say on good grounds that they had been disappointed, in not finding sufficient numbers to make a House, he could not but regard it as rather a proof that their apprehension of immediate danger to the country had subsided, and was at an end. If the report of the committee of secrecy was really so pressing, as to call for some legislative provision independent of the existing laws, it was not at all likely that ministers should so readily agree to sacrifice two nights, as would be the case were this motion agreed to. It was the importance of his hon. friend's
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motion, and no wish to throw any obstacle in the way of the present proposal, that had induced him to address the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerapprehended there could be no difficulty in the House agreeing to his motion, when they considered that it had always been customary not to meet on the birth-days of the king and queen, or at least on the days appointed for celebrating such birth-days. He regretted as much as any man could do, the delay which had taken place in the discussion of the hon. baronet's motion, but he could assure the hon. baronet and the House, that that delay was in no point of view owing to his majesty's ministers, as it was well known they were yesterday engaged at the very hour the House met, on most important business. No inconvenience could possibly arise from the motion of the hon. baronet being delayed for a few days longer, for in fact, that motion would have been before the House when the navy estimates came to be considered. There was not, at all events, such an immediate pressure for bringing it forward, as to induce the House to dispense with their usual custom of not meeting on birth-days. If the hon. baronet was desirous of immediately bringing the case before the House, he might probably make an arrangement with an hon. member on the same side, who had a motion standing for Friday. Monday was the day when the discussion on the report of the secret committee was proposed to take place, and that certainly was as important in every possible view, as any subject which could engage the attention of the House. Some early day might without inconvenience be fixed for the hon. baronet bringing on his motion, in the event of there being no arrangement made between him and the hon. member whose motion stood for Friday.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the motion which stood for Friday related to the poor laws, and certainly in that view was interesting to the whole country. If the House could devise a remedy for the evils complained of in the present state of these laws, he was certain they could not too soon enter into the consideration of it. Aware of its deep importance, he should lament that it was postponed beyond the time appointed by the hon. member in the notice he had given. Surely a question so infinitely interesting to the country, was worthy of being sooner considered than any reduction which might be made
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in the seven lords of the admiralty, which number had always been the same since the revolution.
Mr. Curwenwould have gladly complied with the wishes of his hon. friend, in postponing his motion, but did not think he could do so in justice.
Sir M. W. Ridleyconsidered the question which should have been discussed last night as one of the greatest importance, and one which could not be too soon, brought before the House. If any thing were wanting to show the anxiety of ministers to put it off as long as they could, their conduct last night was sufficient, for not one of them was in the House.
The motion was then agreed to.

REPORT OF THE SECRET COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, RESPECTING CERTAIN MEETINGS AND DANGEROUS COMBINATIONS.
Mr. Bathurstpresented the report of the Secret Committee, which was read, and is as follows:

REPORT.
THE COMMITTEE OF SECRECY, to whom the several Papers, which were presented (sealed up) to the House, by lord viscount Castlereagh, on the 4th day of February, by command of his royal highness the Prince Regent, were referred, and who were directed to examine the matters thereof, and report the same, as they should appear to them, to the House;—have unanimously agreed to the following REPORT:
It appears to your Committee, from the most attentive consideration of the several documents referred to them, that attempts have been made, in various parts of the country, as well as in the metropolis, to take advantage of the distress in which the labouring and manufacturing classes of the community are at present involved, to induce them to look for immediate relief, not only in a reform of parliament on the plan of universal suffrage and annual election, but in a total overthrow of all existing establishments, and in a division of the landed, and extinction of the funded property of the country.
This hope and prospect of spoliation have been actively and industriously propagated by several societies, openly existing in the metropolis, distinguished by the name of Spenceans; a title which they have assumed in consequence of having

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revived the principles, with some variation, of a visionary writer of the name of Spence, which first appeared in a publication of his near twenty years ago.
It appears that at some of these societies, held during the last month, the question was discussed, whether the meetings for parliamentary reform are calculated to mislead or enlighten the public. In the course of the debates upon which question, it was strongly urged "that parliamentary reform was only a half measure, that they must look to the land, for nothing short of that would ever avail them: that we had no constitution, there being no book in which it could be found, nor any man that could tell what it was." In another discussion upon the question, "whether the practical establishment of Spence's plan be an effectual remedy for the present distresses," one of the doctrines maintained was, that "the landholder was a monster to be hunted down; but that they should not suffer themselves to be amused; that there was a greater evil, namely, the fundholder; that these were the rapacious wretches, that took fifteen pence out of every quartern loaf."
It further appears, that in these meetings the most blasphemous expressions and doctrines are openly and repeatedly advanced; that as the meetings are professed to be of a convivial nature, the political debates and readings are usually followed by songs, in many of which the most inflammatory topics are introduced, some of a seditious and treasonable nature, and others under the form of profane and indecent parodies of the liturgy and of the holy scriptures.
These societies appear to have extended themselves; and there are traces of the existence of a committee called conservative, directing the operations of the whole. The doctrines above mentioned have been systematically and industriously disseminated amongst mechanics and manufacturers, discharged soldiers and sailors, and labourers of all descriptions: they have been inculcated at frequent appointed meetings, and at various places, by speakers, who have made the distresses of the times topics of excitement and inflammation; and they have been circulated, with incredible activity and perseverance, in cheap arid often gratuitous publications. It has been proved, to the entire satisfaction of your committee, that some members of these societies, acting by delegated or assumed authority, as an exe-
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cutive committee of the whole, conceived the project, and endeavoured to prepare the means of raising an insurrection, so formidable from numbers, as by dint of physical strength to overpower all resistance.
The first step towards the accomplishment of this object was, by the individual exertion of the members of the committee, to discover and foment the prevalent distresses and discontents in the metropolis and its vicinity. Returns were made of those who they thought were to be relied upon for daring and hazardous enterprises.
The design was by a sudden rising in the dead of the night, to surprise and overpower the soldiers in their different barracks, which were to be set on fire; at the same time (plans having been arranged, and some steps taken with a view to the accomplishment of that object) to possess themselves of the artillery, to seize or destroy the bridges, and to take possession of the Tower and the Bank. In furtherance of this design, a machine was projected for clearing the streets of cavalry. A drawing of this machine, fully authenticated, and also a manuscript sketch or plan of various important parts of the Tower, found with the drawing of the machine, have been laid before your committee.
This design was however relinquished a short time before its intended execution. It was thought more prudent previously to ascertain what force the conspirators could actually call together, and this it was agreed could best be done by convening a public meeting, for the ostensible purpose of obtaining a redress of grievances in a legal way. The map of London was inspected, and Spa-Fields were selected as the most eligible spot, from their vicinity to the Bank and the Tower. Advertisements were accordingly prepared, and written placards circulated, of the most dangerous and inflammatory nature; of one of which the following is a copy:
"BRITONS TO ARMS!
"The whole country waits the signal "from London to fly to arms! haste, break "open gunsmiths and other likely places "to find arms! run all constables who touch "a man of us; no rise of bread; no Regent; no Castlereagh, off with their "heads; no placemen, tythes, or enclosures; no taxes; no bishops, only useless "lumber! stand true, or be slaves for ever."
"N. B. —Five thousand of these bills

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"are up in the town, and printed ones, "with further particulars, will appear in "due time."
At this time, if not before, the intended insurrection assumed the symbols of the French revolution; a committee of public safety, consisting of 24, was agreed upon, including the names of several persons, extremely unlikely to lend themselves to such a cause. A tri-color flag and cockades were actually prepared; the flag was openly carried and displayed at the first meeting which took place in Spa-Fields, on the 15th of November. No acts of violence were however encouraged on that day, though some few instances of plunder occurred after the assembly dispersed, but care was taken to adjourn the meeting to the 2d of December, by which time it was hoped that the preparations for insurrection would be fully matured. Not a moment was lost in advertising the next meeting, and great assiduity was employed in circulating the intelligence through all the great manufacturing towns in the country, by means of placards and handbills; endeavours were used to raise subscriptions; the expense hitherto incurred in forwarding the object of the conspiracy, and in supporting such inferior members of it as had relinquished their trades and occupations in order to devote their whole time to the furtherance of the cause, having been hitherto principally defrayed by one individual of the committee. Plans for the seduction of the soldiers were now adopted and pursued with unremitting activity; appeals were made to excite their sympathy, and induce them not to act against the insurgents; attempts were made to inflame their hopes by promises of rank and reward, and to alarm their jealousy by the absurd fiction of the actual landing of a considerable foreign army, for the purpose of controlling them.
The barracks were again reconnoitered with a view to attack. The manufacture of tricolor-ribbon was encouraged, with a view of rendering it familiar to the eyes of the public.
Visits were repeated to those quarters of the town, where the distress was considered as the most prevalent; and warehouses along the river, as well as shops in other places, which were known to contain arms, combustibles, and clothing, were examined and noted down, with the view of seizing those articles on the proper occasion. Plans were also formed for seducing the sailors on the river, by offers of
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advancement to high rank under the new government, and for seizing and equipping such ships as were accessible. Immediately previous to the day of meeting, arms were provided for the immediate use of some of the persons most actively engaged. This provision was deemed sufficient for the beginning of the insurrection, as they felt confident that if it should be successful for two hours, as many arms might be procured as would be necessary, from the depots and gunsmiths shops, which had been reconnoitred with that view.
Your Committee have further received undoubted information that a large quantity of pike heads had been ordered of one individual, and 250 actually made by him, and delivered and paid for. It was also undoubtedly intended to liberate the prisoners in the principle gaols in or about the metropolis, in the hope of their concurrence and assistance in the intended insurrection. Addresses were introduced into some of those prisons, and recommended to be communicated to others, in which the persons confined were invited, in the name of the tri-colored committee, to rally round the tri-colored standard, which would be erected on Monday, December the 2d, and to wear tri-colored cockades themselves. It was promised that the prisoners should be liberated by force, and arms were stated to be provided for them, and they were directed to be ready to assist in overpowering the turnkeys. A waggon was hired for the business of the day, in which the flags and banner or standard, which had been previously prepared, together with some ammunition, were secretly conveyed to the place of meeting. From this waggon, before the ostensible business of the day commenced, in the other part of the field, the most inflammatory speeches were delivered, tending directly to excite insurrection, concluded by an appeal to the multitude assembled, whether they were prepared to redress their own grievances. A tri-color cockade was then exhibited, and the tri-color flag was displayed, and a number of persons followed it out of the field.
The direction which they took was towards that part of the town previously designed; gunsmiths shops were broken open, addresses and offers were made to the soldiers at the Tower to induce them to open the gates; but from the failure of the numbers expected to join the insur-

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gents, do attempt was made to force the gates. An attack was however made upon the city magistrates assembled in the Royal Exchange, a shot fired, and a tricolor flag and cockade openly displayed and seized on the offender.
In reviewing the whole of the transactions of the 2d of December, your Committee are firmly persuaded, that, however improbable the success of such a plan may appear, it yet was deliberately premeditated by desperate men, who calculated without reasonable ground upon defection in their opposers, and upon active support from those multitudes, whose distress they had witnessed, and whom they had vainly instigated to revolt. That consequently it was not merely the sudden ebullition of the moment, or the unauthorized attempt of any unconnected individual.
Your Committee are further convinced, that notwithstanding the failure on the 2d of December, the same designs still continue to be prosecuted with sanguine hopes of success.
Your Committee having thus stated the general result of the evidence which has been laid before them, respecting the state of the metropolis, have now the no less painful duty of calling the attention of the House to what has been passing during the same period in different parts of the country, a subject of equally momentous consideration. The first thing which has here forced itself upon their observation, is the widely diffused ramification of a system of clubs, associated professedly for the purpose of parliamentary reform, upon the most extended principle of universal suffrage and annual parliaments. These clubs in general designate themselves by the same name of Hampden clubs. On the professed object of their institution, they appear to be in communication and connexion with the club of that name in London.
It appears to be part of the system of these clubs, to promote an extension of clubs of the same name and nature, so widely as, if possible, to include every village in the kingdom. The leading members are active in the circulation of publications likely to promote their object. Petitions, ready prepared, have been sent down from the metropolis to all societies in the country disposed to receive them. The communication between these clubs takes place by the mission of delegates; delegates from these clubs in the country, have assembled in London, and are ex-
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pected to assemble again early in March. Whatever may be the real object of these clubs in general, your Committee have no hesitation in stating, from information on which they place full reliance, that in far the greater number of them, and particularly in those which are established in the great manufacturing districts of Lancashire, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, and Derbyshire, and which are composed of the lower order of artizans, nothing short of a revolution is the object expected and avowed.
Your Committee find, from equally undoubted information, that the doctrines of the Spencean clubs have been widely diffused through the country, either by the extension of similar societies, or more frequently by the intervention of missionaries or delegates, whose business it is to propagate those doctrines throughout every society to which they have access: it is the universal practice of these societies, to require from the members a small weekly subscription, which provides a fund for the expenses of these missionaries, and also for the purchase of seditious tracts, which are read and commented on at their meetings. Some of these tracts, now before your committee, inculcate in the most artful manner, the necessity of overturning what they call "the privileged class," as distinguished from the people, who are described as consisting of labourers, artizans, tradesmen, and every profession useful to society. A new order is declared to be the will of the people; rebellion is justified by the assertion that a nation cannot be a rebel; and all religion is disavowed, as well as loyalty, by the assertion, in answer to the question, "would you live without gods or kings,"—"we abjure tyranny of every kind."
It seems, indeed, to be a part of the system adopted by these societies, to prepare the minds of the people for the destruction of the present frame of society, by undermining not only their habits of decent and regular subordination, but all the principles of morality and religion. Your Committee find, that there is scarcely any very numerous society, in the parts above referred to, of whose proceedings they have obtained an account, in which some of the leading speakers do not openly avow the most seditious opinions, and do not excite their hearers to be prepared for actual insurrection. Topics for discussion are selected with this view: amongst others, the question, whether the jacob in or the loyalist

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was the best friend to his country? Even where petitioning is recommended, it is proposed to be conducted in such a manner, by an immense number of delegates attending in London at the same time, in several parties, attached to each petition, as might induce an effort to obtain by force whatever they demanded. A general idea seems prevalent among those who compose these societies, that some fixed day, at no very great distance, is to be appointed for a general rising. They have been taught to look to the meetings in London as the signal for their operations, and have been in the habit of adjourning their own assemblies simultaneously to the same day; and it is a lamentable instance of the common interest which they feel, if not of the connexion which is formed with those most implicated in the outrages committed in the metropolis, that about Manchester and some other places, the greatest exultation was manifested previous to the meeting in Spa-Fields on the 2nd of December; and the taking of the Tower, and the ruin of the Bank, were publicly and confidently predicted. The news of the result was impatiently expected, the roads were crowded during the night with a number of persons, many of them delegates from the different societies in the country, waiting for the arrival of the mail coach, and the disappointment was not concealed, when it was ascertained that the riot had been quelled without much serious or extensive mischief.
It appears, that the confidence of the disaffected is such, that they represent the numbers enrolled as amounting to several hundred thousand, and that their societies are daily increasing; that in their lists they distinguish by particular marks those among their subscribers who are able bodied men, and ready to act when required; and that they also keep a list of those who refuse to join them in what they call a "black book," and threaten vengeance against these persons when the general insurrection shall take place. In some parts of one populous county, where nearly every village has already its Hampden club, the members make it no secret that they consider themselves as of no other use than as being ready to act whenever they are called upon; on their admission they are said to be listed, and receive a secret card with the words "Be Ready, Be Steady."
The habits and manners of these persons seem entirely changed; they already
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calculate upon the share of land which each is to possess, and point out the destruction of the churches, as the necessary consequence of their success. It appears that preparations are in progress, in several places, for providing arms; the demand upon gunsmiths, for every species of fire arms, has been beyond all former example; the intention is professed, of having recourse for a still larger supply to those towns where arms are manufactured, and where they are to be obtained at a very low rate, from the general cheapness of labour at this time; or in case of necessity they are to be seized by force. The facility of converting implements of husbandry into offensive weapons, has been suggested; and persons have been sent to observe the state of particular places, where depots of arms for the public service were supposed to have been formed.
Your Committee, find that a system of secret association has been extended to the manufacturing population of Glasgow, and some other populous towns of Scotland; and although these societies have availed themselves of the same pretext, of parliamentary reform on the broadest basis, your Committee are firmly persuaded, from the information which has been laid before them, that their ultimate object is the overthrow by force of the existing form of government. That the time for attempting this enterprise was to depend on the simultaneous rising of the disaffected in England; with some emissaries from, whom occasional intercourse appears to have taken place, and that some provision of weapons has been made by this association.
Your Committee have now submitted to the House, what they conceive to be a fair, and not exaggerated statement of the result of their investigation. They have thought themselves precluded from inserting, in an Appendix, the information from which it is drawn, by the consideration, that unless it were extremely partial and incomplete, they could not make it public without hazarding the personal safety of many useful and many respectable individuals, and in some instances without prejudicing the due administration of public justice.
On a review of the whole, it is a great satisfaction to your Committee to observe, that, notwithstanding the alarming progress which has been made in the system of extending disaffection and secret societies, its success has been confined to

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the principle manufacturing districts, where the distress is more prevalent, and numbers more easily collected; and that even in many of these districts, privations have been borne with exemplary patience and resignation, and the attempts of the disaffected have been disappointed; that few if any of the higher orders or even of the middle class of society, and scarcely any of the agricultural population, have lent themselves to the more violent of these projects. Great allowance must be made for those who, under the pressure of urgent distress, have been led to listen to plausible and confident demagogues, in the expectation of immediate relief. It is to be hoped, that many of those who have engaged, to a certain extent, in the projects of the disaffected, but in whom the principles of moral and religious duty have not been extinguished or perverted by the most profane and miserable sophistry, would withdraw themselves before those projects were pushed to actual insurrection.
But, with all these allowances, your Committee cannot contemplate the activity and arts of the leaders in this conspiracy, and the numbers whom they have already seduced, and may seduce; the oaths by which many of them are bound together; the means suggested and prepared for the forcible attainment of their objects; the nature of the objects themselves, which are not only the overthrow of all the political institutions of the kingdom, but also such a subversion of the rights and principles of property, as must necessarily lead to general confusion, plunder, and bloodshed; without submitting, to the most serious attention of the House, the dangers which exist, and which the utmost vigilance of government, under the existing laws, has been found inadequate to prevent.
19th February, 1817.
The Report was ordered to be printed, and taken into consideration on Monday.

MOTION FOR APPOINTING A COMMITTEE RELATING TO THE BANK.
On the motion of Mr. Grenfell, the Petitions for retrenchment and economy presented from the county of Cornwall, and from the lord mayor, aldermen, and common council of the city of London, were entered as read.
Mr. Grenfellrose and observed, that after the numerous petitions presented to
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the House from every part of the country in favour of economy and retrenchment, he felt himself perfectly justified in endeavouring to direct the attention of the House to a source of financial improvements, namely, the contracts and engagements between the public and the bank of England. During the last session of parliament he had taken frequent opportunities of calling their attention to that important topic, and in consequence of the discussions arising thereon, considerable savings had been effected, and he trusted that the same principle might be still further pursued, without contracting the fair and equitable profits of that great, and he would call it, that valuable national establishment. For this purpose, it would be his duty to propose the appointment of a select committee, to enter into the whole of this important subject, for without a select committee, it would be impossible to investigate with sufficient accuracy, the intricate concerns of the several arrangements made between the government and the bank; and this it was competent for them to effect, without interfering, in the remotest degree, with the multifarious concerns of the finance committee. In undertaking to show the necessity of this measure, he proposed, first, to give a general review of some previous proceedings; and, in the next place, to state what further retrenchments this subject was capable of affording. When first he called the attention of the House to this consideration, he had exposed himself to an irritable, if not a hostile feeling, on the part of a very respectable set of men, the bank directors, for whom in their individual capacity, he entertained the highest possible respect. This feeling, however, could not prevent him from fulfilling his duty towards the public, and endeavouring to limit the exorbitant profits of those who have, for many years, been deriving gain from the public, far beyond what their services justified; not desiring, at the same time, as he before observed, to deprive them of a fair, equitable, and even liberal remuneration. He stated that, in the year 1797, just twenty years ago, when the restriction act was passed, the affairs of the bank were investigated by a committee of secrecy, which was the first occurrence of that nature that had taken place since the original grant of the charter, in the year 1694. It then appeared, that for near a century, the only profits derived to the bank pro-

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prietors were dividends, sometimes as high as 9 per cent., at other times as low as 4½; making an average of 6¾ per cent.; but there was nothing like a bonus, or an increase of capital during that period. By the same investigation it also appeared, that there had accumulated in the hands of the bank a surplus of undivided profits to the amount of 3,800,000 l. which, added to their fund of 11,600,000 l. made a grand total in their hands of 15,400,000 l. With this capital the bank started with the restriction act, and enormous profits were the consequence. The first consideration was the rate of management of the public debt, which was exorbitant in a degree, such as the history of no other banking or commercial establishment could present. The profits of the banks of Genoa, Amsterdam, or Hamburg, sunk into insignificance in comparison with those of the bank of England for the last twenty year. In proof of this he stated a fact within his own knowledge, and which, as being himself a bank proprietor, he was enabled to verify, namely, that the profits of the bank within the last twenty years, in addition to the usual dividend of seven per cent, amounted to the sum of 27 millions. He defied the chancellor of the exchequer, or any of the hon. bank directors then present, to dispute the accuracy of that statement.
In giving this exposition of the profits of the bank of England in their engagements with the public, he begged leave to state, once for all, that he did not mean to impute any censure to the bank that made these gains; he found fault only with the government that tolerated them. For, besides the natural desire of gain that belonged to man in every relation in life, the bank directors were bound by oath to exert themselves on every occasion to improve the property of their constituents; but he trusted that the ardour that animated the directors, and the success that attended their exertions in the discharge of their duty, would induce the House, in its turn, to consider the interests of the public. Much of these enormous profits were to be attributed to the influence which their command of money gave the bank directors over every chancellor of the exchequer in their pecuniary negociations; and when this was properly considered, he would naturally expect that the right hon. gentleman opposite would not make any opposition to his motion for a thorough investigation of
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the bank affairs, as it would thereby render him in future less dependent on the directors. But, notwithstanding this, and that many of those who usually voted with the minister on such occasions were, he was convinced, desirous of terminating the present system, he still feared that the right hon. gentleman could not throw off the trammels which time or influence had imposed on him. It was impossible to deny that the bank had, on many occasions, afforded great accommodations to the public; but it should likewise be considered, that it was the public that had enabled the bank to grant the accommodation, by means of the restriction act. But even these very accommodations were sources of new profits, obtained by the influence exercised by the directors over the chancellor of the exchequer in all pecuniary arrangements. This influence had manifested itself in many instances; and no one could look at it without acknowledging that such a control over the concerns of government was in its nature unfit and anomalous, and in its consequences mischievous and dangerous. Statements to this effect had been frequently made in the House; but motions founded on them always encountered opposition, more remarkable for its taciturnity, and formidable by the votes of the six honourable bank directors, than for the arguments advanced on the question. It had been said, indeed, that the statements were exaggerated; but no proofs were ever advanced in support of the allegation; and when he, and his friends on the same side of the question, complained of the exorbitant charge of 300,000 l. for management, the hon. directors said, that the bank indeed was extremely moderate, being satisfied with only 7d. in every 100 l. But let it be considered, that this 7d. was levied annually, upon an amount of debt which he almost shuddered to mention—on no less than 800 millions of pounds sterling! The real question, however, for the consideration of the House was, whether the nature of the service, and the risk run by the bank, were such as enabled it to receive a yearly sum, which, in November last, amounted to 282,000 l. This could be considered in a committee only, where he should be glad to encounter the hon. directors in fair discussion, and where, he trusted, he should be enabled to prove that the services of the bank would be liberally remunerated by half their present profits, or by about 150,000 l. a year.

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There was another source of immense profits to the bank, namely, the sums of public money that have accumulated, and were now lying in their hands. The amount of these within the last twenty years was seldom less than nine millions, and not unfrequently exceeded fifteen millions, the average being about 11 millions. This money, locked up from public use, caused a loss to the public of about 5 or 600,000 l. annually, producing an equal profit to the bank. When this abuse bad, on a former occasion, been complained of, and an account was demanded of the sums of money so accumulated, what was the conduct of the bank directors? They prevented for a few days the production of the account; and an hon. bank director opposite had asserted, that the money was not serviceable to the bank; but notwithstanding this assertion, the gentlemen were very unwilling to part with it. They endeavoured then to excite alarm, and spoke of the danger likely to result to the public credit from such discussions; but he knew of no injury such discussions could create to the credit of government, but the proofs they afforded of what was well expressed on a former occasion, by an hon. and learned gentleman, whose absence from that House must be regretted by every one [Hear, hear!], who had called it "a profligate profusion on the part of government, and an inordinate rapacity on the part of the bank of England, without an example in the financial history of this or of any other country."
With respect to the opposition of the right hon. gentleman, it had hitherto been more famed for the votes which he had obtained than the arguments he had used. It was true indeed that every time he had brought forward any question with regard to the transactions between government and the bank, he had been, on a division of the House, successfully opposed by the right hon. gentleman. But it was unnecessary to state, that it was not by the mere vote of the day that similar questions of this or any other House of parliament were ultimately decided. Such questions were, when first proposed, frequently resisted and rejected, and yet afterwards, and that within a short period, acted on. There were many instances of this kind which he could easily bring to the recollection of the House. He would, on the present occasion, however, confine himself to stating in detail the savings and
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retrenchments which had taken place since the discussions were begun, on the propositions submitted by him on the subject of the arrangements between the government and the bank, that is within the last two sessions, or within the last twenty months. The first proposition submitted by him to the House, in the session before last, was a motion for the production of accounts and papers, for the purpose of exhibiting the amount of the public deposits in the hands of the bank, and the terms of the existing contracts between government and the bank, under which the bank were paid for transacting the business of the public. Nothing could be more just, than that the House of Commons, in right of the public as one of the parties, should receive every information on this subject. One would have supposed, that a proposition so reasonable in itself, so well calculated to produce practical good, would have instantly have been acceded to by the right hon. gentleman, as the guardian and protector of the public purse. He resisted it, however, and the proposition was rejected. But what happened? Within one week after the rejection of the proposition, and when he had come to a determination again to submit it for the re-consideration of the House, did the right hon. gentleman come down to the House, and, contrary to the wishes of many of the directors of the bank—to his own credit—though he was sorry to add it was a solitary instance— gave his acquiescence; and thus the same measure was carried on the 26th, which had been rejected on the 19th of the same month. But how often was it not known to happen, that resistance on the part of his majesty's ministers was afterwards followed by concession. The right hon. gentleman, in the session before last, had submitted to the House an act imposing an additional duty to the existing stamp duties. The bank of England had, for their own accommodation, been allowed to issue paper without any stamp, and in lieu of the duties, they paid to the public a sum known by the name of the bank composition. From 1799 to 1815, this composition had been any thing but what it ought to have been, that is, a full and fair equivalent for the sums which they would have been obliged to pay the commissioners of stamps, as the duties for the paper in circulation. When his noble friend, the member for Lanarkshire (lord

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A. Hamilton), first asked the right hon. gentleman what additional sum it was proposed that the bank should pay, he answered it would be proposed to make the bank pay such an addition to the existing composition, which was 42,000 l. as would be found to correspond to—what?—The increase on the amount of their notes in circulation? No—but to the increase of the stamp duty—abandoning in this manner the principle laid down by Mr. Pitt in 1799, and following up that adopted by lord Sidmouth in 1804, and losing sight of the increase of the notes in circulation. A variety of discussions took place day after day on this subject. He had shown to the House, that according to calculations, for the accuracy of which he considered himself responsible the bank had put into their pocket, since the arrangement of lord Sidmouth in 1804, when Mr. Pitt's principle was abandoned, a sum of money to which the public were entitled, to the amount of 535,000 l. The right hon. gentleman though, when first questioned by his noble friend, he had intimated his intention to adhere to the principle of the arrangement of 1804, afterwards, when obliged to give way, said, he had always intended to act in this business as he afterwards did. However, it was comparatively of little consequence how a beneficial result to the public was produced; it was enough that it was produced. In the first of the two years after a new arrangement the public received from the bank 87,500 l., and in the second year 91,000 l., being an increase of 41,000 l. However, were he to state the advantage to the public by the new arrangement at 35,000 l. only, it was an object in the present times of pressure of no inconsiderable importance.
The next subject to which he had called the attention of the House was the deposits of public money in the hands of the bank. They could not all but recollect the very taunting manner in which, in the session before last, what he said had been received, not by the directors of the bank only, but also by the chancellor of the exchequer, who had resisted his motion for the production of accounts, to see the amount of the balances. On that occasion a bank director, his hon. friend, the member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), whom he was happy to see below him, returned from his foreign mission, had then ridiculed the idea of the bank deriving any considerable advantage from the
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balances of the public money in the hands of the bank; and when he moved for papers, for the purpose of showing the enormous amount of these balances, he was opposed by the right hon. gentleman. But what happened afterwards? The chancellor of the exchequer and the directors of the bank laid their heads together, and the bank agreed to advance government the sum of 6,000,000 l. at one per cent, less than the ordinary interest, being a saving of 60,000 l. on the 6,000,000 l. However, this formed only a part of the advantages derived by the public. Instead of paying 4 per cent, on six millions, he thought as the bank were only lending to the public their own money the public ought to pay nothing for it. He therefore had moved an amendment to the proposition submitted to the House on that occasion. But hardly was this over, when the chancellor of the exchequer came forward with a new arrangement, by which other three millions were to be lent by the bank, at an interest of 3 per cent., equivalent to another saving of 60,000 l. Another sum of 25,000 l. had been obtained as interest on 500,000 l. of unclaimed dividends. Thus there had been first obtained 60,000 l., being 1 per cent, on the loan of 6 millions; then 60,000 l., being 2 per cent, on 3 millions; and next 25,000 l. interest on 500,000 l. of unclaimed dividends, making together 145,0000 l., to which, if they added 35,000 l. for additional stamp duties obtained, they would arrive at the sum of 180,000 l. which had been saved, it might be improper to say in consequence of these discussions, but certainly since these discussions had taken place. But whether this advantage was due to the discussions in that House, or to the vigilance of the right hon. gentleman, and the generosity and liberality of the bank directors, or an awakened sense of justice on the part of the bank, but which had been asleep for twenty years, he would leave to the House to determine.
Having thus shown the House that savings had been realized to the amount of 180,000 l., he might be asked, perhaps, whether he was not yet satisfied, and to what objects a committee could apply itself, if the motion were to be carried Appreciating the value to the public of all savings, particularly at this moment of public pressure, he would answer to such question, that he could not be satisfied with what was done, until full and ample

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justice should be done to the public. It remained for him, therefore, to point out the sources of further retrenchment which he had in contemplation, and the objects with which the committee would have to occupy itself, if the motion should be carried. The first great source remaining of farther economy was, to regulate the deposits of public money in the hands of the bank; and the House would judge how fur this was practicable. The balances on these deposits were pretty much the same now as they had been for the last ten years: he should call the present aggregate amount eleven millions. This produced a loss to the public of 550,000 l. From this sum there would be to be deducted 150,000 l., for the loan of three millions in 1808 without interest, which was advanced on the specific ground of the right of the public to participate in the profits the bank made of this money. Nothing since had passed precluding the public from making such arrangement with the bank as the legislature might deem advisable. If to the 60,000 l. being the one per cent, on six millions, 60,000 l. being two per cent, on three millions, making 120,000 l., they added 150,000 l. the whole would amount to 270,000 l.; and, deducting this sum of 270,000 l. from the 550,000 l. being the interest on the 11 millions, the aggregate amount of balances, there would remain a sum of 280,000 l., which sum the public were now losing on the deposits in the hands of the bank. This sum the bank received for no other than the insignificant service of acting as treasurers to the public. He did, therefore, confidently look to this as a source of very considerable saving to the public.
The next object to which the attention of the committee would be called was, the exorbitant and extravagant rate they were paying the bank for the management of the public money. On this subject he would not now enlarge. They would find the details much better given in some of the parliamentary papers which he should mention; 1st, The report of the finance committee of 1797. 2nd, the luminous and able report of the committee on public income and expenditure in 1807; and3d, the correspondence between the government and bank, which took place in consequence of that report. From the information which these papers gave them, they would see, that instead of paying 300,000 l. to the bank, they ought to pay less than one half of this sum; and he confidently looked to
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this quarter, therefore, as a source of future saving to the amount of 150,000 l. per annum. These were the two great sources towards which he looked for further savings. But there were still some other sources of savings which, though small in themselves, on principle he thought they could not well overlook; and in this opinion he was the more confirmed, particularly as since he had had a seat in that House, he had very properly assisted in discussions on the subject of savings of thousands and a few hundred pounds a year; for instance, the discussion last year respecting the reduction of 1,000 l. a year on the salary to the secretaries of the admiralty, and the discussion respecting the salary to the newly created vice treasurer of Ireland. Since the year 1722 the bank had received charges of management on 4 milions of South Sea debt, which they purchased from that company and added to their capital, and on which all management had ceased. But on this sum, on which there was no management, they received a greater rate of allowance than for the debt on which they had the trouble of transfers and paying dividends. The bank received, too, 800 l. per million for every loan. This had amounted since the war to 4 or 5,000 l. a year. The bank, not satisfied with 7d. in the 100 l. for managing the debt, obtained 20 d. in the hundred pounds in every loan for doing nothing. He hoped he should never live to see another loan; but as it was necessary to make provision for other times than the present, this was another subject which would come under the consideration of the committee. The last item was a charge made by the bank respecting which, if the bank chose to stand on their chartered rights, he knew they could not be driven off, this was a charge which had disgusted the late Mr. Perceval, and indeed the very name of it was disgusting—the bank had received 4,000 l. a year ever since their origin, as an allowance for house expenses for coals, candles, &c. The bank, however, did not now like this title, but till late years the charge had always gone by this title. They now chose to call it "charges of management." But they were already paid for managing the affairs of the public. There was no other management but that of their own affairs. The charge of house expenses was as discreditable to the bank as it was unfair towards the public.
He had now gone through the whole items, and he had only in conclusion one

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observation to make. In justice to himself, he wished to observe, that throughout these discussions he had been actuated by no feeling but what was of a public nature, and proper for a public man to entertain. He had been moved by an honest care for the interests of the public, by a conviction in his own mind, and a sincere, zealous, ardent, but blameless desire to contribute in his humble sphere, towards the correction of abuses in the expenditure, and the consequent alleviation of the burthens which at present pressed on every individual throughout the whole frame and structure of society. If, on any principle of public faith, the bank were entitled to hold the whole or any part of the sums they now obtained, or if they could show that they were entitled to a remuneration to the extent of what they at present received, in every view of the matter he called on the bank to come forward in support of the motion for a committee, where alone the subject could receive the proper investigation, the errors, be exposed, arid the charge of extravagant charges be rebutted. This course would have the effect of setting the subject at rest, and putting an end to the motions on this subject, which he should otherwise, while he had a seat in that House, never cease to bring. He concluded with moving, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the engagements now subsisting between the public and the Bank of England, and to consider the advantages derived by the bank from its transactions with the public, with a view to the adoption of such future arrangements as may be consistent with those principles of equity and good faith which ought to prevail in all transactions between the public and the Bank of England, and to report their opinion thereon to the House."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the hon. gentleman had brought forward his motion with a good deal of dexterity, by making an appeal to the bank. He called on the directors of that establishment to adopt a manly line of conduct, and to bring under the closest inspection of the House, all the transactions which that concern was engaged in. Now, he conceived, the onus probandi rested on those who called for examination, to state the grounds on which it was necessary; instead of demanding of those, whose transactions were proposed to be made the subject of investigation, to advance rea-
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sons for refusing their compliance. If the transactions between government and the bank had not been brought distinctly under the view of parliament; if they had not received as much consideration as could be afforded to any subject—then, certainly, he would allow that the arguments of the hon. gentleman carried great weight with them. But lie had himself stated the period when the engagements of the bank were fully considered, and when they received the approbation of parliament. They were completely entered into, in 1807, before the select committee of finance, by whom several useful suggestions were thrown out. Of these, Mr. Perceval had availed himself in the first instance, and he (the chancellor of the exchequer) had always thought himself bound to attend to them, whenever an opportunity occurred. If the hon. gentleman could show, that the engagements between government and the bank had on any occasion, assumed such a character as called for minute parliamentary inquiry—if a rate of advantage were allowed to the bank, which justice did not warrant—then he should have no objection to a motion of this kind. But he had never heard such a charge insinuated except by the hon. gentleman. He had argued, that the profits of the bank were progressively increasing. But it must appear to every person who considered the subject fairly, that the contrary was the case, and that the profits made by the bank in the transactions between them and the government, were absolutely decreasing, and that in a very rapid degree. This was very clear, when the relative value of money, in war and in peace was considered., In time of peace, when the interest of money was lowered, neither the bank nor any other great body could make so much profit by the employment of their capital, as in time of war. He here spoke of profits generally—those of 5 per cent, which the bank had made in some of their transactions with government—as well as those of lower amount. Now, if they were able, during a period of war, to make 5 per cent., the reduction of interest, consequent on peace, must alone have very materially lowered their profits. And it should also be recollected, that the system of discount had likewise undergone a very great alteration. The inference he would draw from these facts was, that the arrangement with the bank, which two years ago was thought

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favourable by parliament, must now be considered more advantageous to the public than it was then. With respect to the employment of the balances held by the bank, for the service of the public, he had never heard a plan by which, without the concurrence of the bank, it could be carried into effect. During Mr. Perceval's administration a plan was devised for that purpose, but it was abandoned; and, after giving it his utmost consideration, it appeared to him to be impracticable, unless the bank themselves completely concurred in it. That plan having been thrown aside, Mr. Perceval thought the public ought to derive some benefit from the balances which were placed under the control of the bank, and, in consequence, an arrangement was made, the principle of which was still acted on, although some modification had been made in the details. By that arrangement a sum of money had been borrowed, part of it without interest, and the remainder at a very moderate rate. In the last year the bank lent 6,000,000 l. to government, at 4l. per cent., and 3,000,000 l. at an interest of 3l. per cent. Now, if the arrangement made by Mr. Perceval was calculated to benefit the public, he contended, considering the difference of the periods, that those arrangements which followed were still more advantageous; and he did not think it right to check or impede this system, at a time when less benefit could be derived from the public money, by the bank, than what it must have produced when the bargain was originally concluded. The present time was, he conceived, ill suited for such an inquiry as that, proposed. In the last session of parliament, it was determined that the bank should commence payments in cash on the 5th of July, 1818; and there was a clear understanding, that they should begin to make preparations for that purpose. It would be wrong to agree to an inquiry, which would go to lay open those arrangements which the bank had made preparatory to their resumption of cash payments. One of those arrangements they were acquainted with. It was a notice to pay a part of their paper, which had been issued at certain periods. The result of this experiment was very well known. It was found that no very great disposition prevailed to send in those notes, in order to obtain cash; and therefore great encouragement was held out to the bank to persevere in calling in notes of particular
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dates. By this means, before the time arrived for a complete resumption of cash payments, it was hoped that there would be such an issue of specie, as would prevent any embarrassment at the bank, and would remove every fear that might be entertained of a deficiency of cash in the country. When the House saw this, he thought, that, instead of making inquiries into contracts, settled at present by act of parliament, they ought to await the completion of the preparations he had alluded to. They ought not to harass the bank to proceed to measures, which, he was sure, they were most anxious to adopt, and which the House had a right to call for, when the proper time arrived. He confessed, when, at the close of last session, considerable benefits were derived by the government from its transactions with the bank—when it was fixed that, on the 5th of July, 1818, they should resume their payments in specie—he did not think they would have been harassed by inquiries, which could have no other practical effect than to disturb existing regulations, and to render the bank less quick, and probably less able, to commence payment in cash, than they otherwise would be. If the hon. gentleman had adduced any arguments, novel in their nature, or which had not already been discussed in that House, he should have entered more into detail, though with some personal inconvenience. But as this was not the case, he conceived the general observations he had made were sufficient for the occasion.
Mr. P. Mooresaid, that the right hon. gentleman had not overturned one of the statements made by his hon. friend, who had called for a committee, that he might have an opportunity of proving every fact he had laid before the House. The committee of 1807, was not formed by the ministry of that day, but originated with a noble friend of his, now a member of the other House. From the report of that committee much advantage had been derived; but it did not go one-tenth so far as it would have done, if the statements of his hon. friend had been in evidence before that committee. Any unprejudiced person, who heard his hon. friend bring forward his statement of facts that night, could have no doubt whatever that he would, if opportunity were given him, prove every one. The vast profit made by the bank at the expense of the country showed the propriety and neces-

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sity of the inquiry into Which it would be the business of the committee to enter. This corporation, since the 23d of May last, had divided among themselves no less a sum than seven millions sterling. The restriction act, which enabled them to make such profits, was the only difficulty that now stood in the way of an advantageous arrangement for the country, which had increased its distresses, and would enable the corporation of the bank, while it lasted and was enforced, to gain 999,000 l. out of every million of their capital.
Mr. Marryatsupported the motion for a committee of inquiry, on the ground of the advantages which had already resulted from the consideration given by the House to the engagement between the bank and the government, and the discussions to which it led. In 1807 the finance committee entered into an examination which led to a loan of three millions from the bank to the county. During the two last sessions of parliament the attention of the House was repeatedly directed to this subject; the vigilance of the country was awakened; the transactions of the bank with the government became better understood; and the result was, new and great advantages gained by the public. Surely, this history of past results and proceedings offered fresh inducements to inquiry, and urged the House on in the course which had already been so advantageous. Nor was there any reason why we should stop short, or dread any evil in the appointment of a parliamentary inquiry. If the committee appointed to institute an examination into subsisting engagements and transactions should find that the bank was still indebted to the public, and was in justice bound to make farther contributions, a positive advantage would be gained; and if, on the contrary, the result of its inquiries should be, that the public had already participated sufficiently in the profits of this corporation, lie was sure no injustice would be done it in demanding more. There were several facts and considerations which convinced him that the former would be the case; that the profits of the bank, which were enormous, were reaped at the expense of the public; and that the bargain which it made with the nation, for transacting its business, was far from being the best. To show that the services of this corporation, in acting as the national bankers, were exceedingly overpaid, he must appeal to the
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case of the United States of America, where the national bank, in consideration of the balances of public money in its hands, and the other advantages it enjoyed by the countenance of government, managed the public business for nothing. He might still farther, in proof of the doctrine he wished to establish, mention the fact, that the Globe Assurance Company offered to do the same for this country which the American national bank did for the United States. The saving that might accrue to the public from a change in the present arrangements between the government and the bank appeared to him very important; and the inquiry into its practicability and extent deserved, in his mind, precedence over most other questions of economy. Various points would come before the committee which was the object of the hon. gentleman's motion. The loans advanced by the bank as connected with the bank restriction act, and its termination in a short time, deserved serious consideration. In his opinion, if the bank went on as it was doing, no resumption of cash payments could be anticipated. This would appear evident upon the bare consideration of the time when the restriction act originated, and the circumstances that led to its adoption. In 1797, the bank having previously lent its capital of 11,700,000 l. or in round numbers, twelve millions to government, and advanced 10 millions on account of malt duties, could not answer the demands made upon it for the payment of its notes, and was obliged to resort to the protection of the act alluded to. The bank of England was like every other corporation of the same nature; if it advanced its capital to government, and thus put beyond its control its means of answering all demands, it could not make good its engagements, and must be protected by government. The fact accordingly was, that it could not pay its notes in 1797; and whatever an act of parliament might do in removing the restriction then imposed, it could not do so now, nor be able at the termination of the act in July, 1818. It was as incapable to resume cash payments as ever, and from the same cause. They had advanced j their capital of twelve millions to government, they had advanced three millions in 1808, and nine millions last year, making in all twenty-four millions, or double the amount of their capital stock. Their capital was, indeed, increased three millions last session, and now amounted to
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fifteen millions; but, out of a capital of fifteen millions, no corporation could lend twenty-four, and make good its engagements. The act was to cease at the end of the war. We were told that the peace, by opening an intercourse with the rest of Europe, would enable us to obtain bullion, would restore credit, equalize exchanges, and thus prepare the bank for paying its notes in specie. Peace had been established now for nearly two years, but we were no farther than ever in our progress towards this object. The fact was, that the bank could only continue its advances by the protection of the restriction act. If they continue to lend to government double their capital, they must issue more paper. The system of accommodation must be continued, and what had been ruinous to every nation must prove so to this. The paper would become government paper, and must depreciate in this as in other countries. While the war continued, no great injury might result from such a state of currency; but it could not be continued without absolute ruin in time of peace, with a free intercourse among our neighbours, and the competition of the world against us. With a depreciated currency, produced by the continuance of the restriction act, we must be under-navigated and undersold in all our manufactures, in all our commercial transactions, in all our commodities, in all our products, and in all branches of our industry. Thinking that this subject, as well as the profits of the bank, deserved inquiry, he would support the motion.
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that the latter part of the hon. gentleman's speech contained arguments which were directed to a different question than that now before the House, and should have been reserved till July, 1818, when the period fixed by parliament for the resumption of cash payments, the subject to which they related, would arrive. There was every reason to believe that the Bank would be able at that time to fulfil the hopes of the House and the country; and till the experiment were tried, there was no necessity for instituting an inquiry, especially after the mature deliberation which the subject had undergone last session. The two hon. gentlemen seemed to be at variance with each other in their statements, although both supported the same measure. The hon. gentleman who spoke last had stated that the bank had advanced 24 millions to government, while its capital was
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only 15, and that consequently it could not make good its engagements; while the other hon. mover stated, that it had 11 millions in savings or surplus capital, thus making its capita exceed its loans. There was therefore no danger to be apprehended from its excessive advances. But these sums did not limit the means of the bank: it had private balances in its hands like other banking establishments. The whole amount of its capital was not known, and could not be known. The hon. member who brought forward the present motion, believed that it was very great, as also the amount of its surplus profits. The bank corporation had aright to use their profits as they pleased, and might make advances as they thought they could with safety. He rejoiced to see the period approaching in which cash payments would be resumed, and entertained the most sanguine hope, that it would not be delayed beyond the time contemplated by parliament. He rejoiced at this the more, as the interval between the withdrawing or absorbing of a great part of our excessive circulation, and the return to another state of currency, must be a time of severe pressure, not only in this country but all over Europe. The hon. member who spoke last gave as a reason for inquiry into the profits of the bank, with a view to a more equal participation in them by the public, the circumstance that the bank of the United States of America transacted the public business for nothing. He (Mr. H.) did not know what advantages the government of that country allowed the bank: but to make the comparison as it ought, the circumstances of both establishments should have been stated. It should have been mentioned, whether the bank of the United States allowed the public three millions without interest, and had paid large sums for repeated renewals of its charter. The hon. mover had enlarged on the great profits of the bank during the war, and considered its profits as losses to the public. He had forgotten, that other corporations and societies likewise made great profits. He had complained that these profits were made by the restriction act, and recommended a participation in these profits, because they had accrued from the interference of the legislature. He (Mr. H.), although he allowed these profits were great, thought that it would not be consistent with the dignity of the legislature to share in profits that resulted from a measure which

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was enacted not for profit, but security. He objected to a committee of inquiry, because inquiry had already taken place, and none of the facts on which the present motion was grounded were pretended to be new. Almost every account and every fact was before the committee of 1807, which drew up the able report, embodying almost all the hon. member's observations. The House-money and other items were there contained. If, in consequence of the information then collected, and the perfect knowledge of all the grounds on which the public could claim a participation in bank profits, no better bargain was made in 1808, the circumstances were less favourable at present for making an increased demand than then; and this, accordingly, was not a period for revising subsisting engagements, with a view to alter them so as to obtain greater advantages. That they had made large profits he did not deny. At the time he formerly alluded to, government had pressed for a more considerable participation in these profits; but the bank resisted, and he was convinced that, if the demand had been persisted in, government must have adopted a new mode of managing the public business. The hon. mover was, he thought, doing no good by bringing forward such transactions as those into which he now called for inquiry, without laying a foundation for his motion in new circumstances. He had adduced nothing new; no reason for an additional advance that was not before known and considered. The subsisting bargain was made with every endeavour to gain the greatest advantages, and there was no hope of making any addition to them by the continued agitation of the question. If new profits could be stated, if new facts could be brought forward, he allowed that might be good ground for revising the subsisting agreements; but while no such things were mentioned, he saw no reason for renewed discussion, and no necessity for a committee. Specific motions might be brought forward embracing specific objects.
Mr. Manningdid not remember these subjects being brought forward on any occasion, when he was not anxious to give the most explicit answer in his power. He thought the hon. gentleman called for a committee without grounding his motion on any substantial reasons. One circumstance appeared to him rather extraordinary. He did not believe that the hon. gentleman was in the habit of attending
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seditious meetings: he must therefore suppose that his pocket had been picked in his passage to the House, and that a document, which he had since read to the House, and which appeared word for word in the British Press, on the 11th of January, the very day on which he had given notice of his motion, had thus found its way into the papers. He contended that the savings which had been effected, were not to be ascribed to the exertions of that hon. member. All the arrangements which had been made, would have taken place if he had not made a single speech in that House. He understood that he had moved that two petitions should be entered as read, one from the county of Cornwall, and the other from the common council of London. There were passages in those petitions, thanking the hon. gentleman for his exertions, and he had seen many paragraphs in various papers, advising the insertion of similar acknowledgments in other petitions. He repeated, however, that none of the arrangements between the government and the bank, had been in the least influenced by the efforts of that hon. member.—With regard to the question of stamps, the transaction was nearly finished which placed them on their present footing, before the hon. gentleman opened his lips in parliament. With regard to the charges of management, the hon. gentleman would see, that there were no extravagant profits now, comparing those that were at present enjoyed with those formerly allowed. While the rate per million for management amounted to the highest sum, the national debt amounted to 650,000,000 l. The rate had been reduced from 450 l. per million to 300 l. for all sums not exceeding 600,000,000 l., and 240 l. for all above: so that on a debt of 800,000,000 l. the public paid little more than it did on a much less amount. The hon. gentleman, after going over other heads in which a saving to the public might be effected, said, he came to a charge the most disgusting of all, which was the charge for house-expenses. He (Mr. M.) had mentioned ten times in the House already, the origin of this charge, and shown that it had nothing to do with an allowance for house-expenses. He would now re-state what he had formerly so often stated. An act of parliament was passed in 1721, empowering the South Sea Company to dispose of 200,000 l. of their dividends. The bank had bought

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up 4 millions of the South Sea stock. In 1742 another act was passed, dividing 100,000 l. of the interest into two portions of 96,000 l. and 4,000 l. The latter sum of 4,000 l. got the name of house-expenses, for a reason he could not tell; but under whatever name it went, it belonged to the bank, as much as the hon. gentleman's real estate or any other property did to him, and could no more be touched by the House without interfering with private and acknowledged rights. With regard to the excessive issue of bank paper, complained of by an hon. gentleman, he might quote the opinion of a gentleman of great experience, the late sir F. Baring, to show how advantageous the bank accommodation had been to the country, and what a stimulus it had given to every branch of industry and prosperity. Having shown that the charges of management were lowered as much as they could be, and that the balances of the public money could not be otherwise employed, he concluded by opposing the appointment of a committee.
Lord A. Hamiltonsupported the motion. The resolution of his hon. friend called for a committee, in order to effect great public savings. He had pointed out various items on which savings might be made, and not one of his statements had been proved erroneous. If it could be shown that the business now transacted by the bank could be executed for half the sum which was paid for it, was it not incumbent on the House to appoint a committee, by which so much money might be saved? The question, in truth, was one more directly affecting the government than the bank; and unless the chancellor of the exchequer was prepared at once to deny that any saving could be effected for the public, in the mode of arranging their accounts with the bank, it was impossible for him to meet this motion with a negative.
Alderman C. Smithopposed the motion.
Mr. Grenfellin reply, observed, that the main argument of the chancellor of the exchequer went to this, that the agreement made between government and the bank, in 1808, was final and conclusive, and that the hands of the House were tied up from making any further arrangement on the part of the public, as to the management of their accounts or balances. Mr. Grenfell said, he was not aware that the act of 1808 contained any provision of
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so final or conclusive a nature; nor did he see what was to prevent that House, if a committee saw that exorbitant charges were drawn for the management of the public debt, from altering or reconsidering the subject, with a view to a more frugal and economical arrangement. The right hon. gentleman had also intimated, that nothing could be done in the matter without the previous consent of the bank directors. This, for aught he knew, might be the opinion in Downing-street, but he trusted that no such preposterous notion would be countenanced in that House, which ought to proceed in the consideration with or without the consent of one of the parties most interested in the result. A right hon. gentleman had alluded to what had fallen from an hon. gentleman near him, on the subject of the bank of America. Now he had lately read a copy of the charter of that bank, and he could tell the right hon. gentleman, that it contained a clause, by which, in consideration of the advances of public money, of which it had the benefit, the bank agreed to pay the dividends and manage the whole national debt for nothing; and further, that the bank of America paid, or agreed to pay, a certain stipulated remuneration for the renewal of its charter. An hon. bank director had said, that he had not given notice of his intention to the parties who were to be affected by the motion; now, the contrary was the fact, for he had communicated a distinct view of the nature of his motion to the governor of the bank a fortnight before the first day for which its discussion had been fixed. The hon. bank director was also very entertaining with his allusions to reforms and seditious meetings. What these had to do with the question before the House, he would leave all who heard him to determine. The hon. director could not, he supposed, have meant to insinuate that he was a party to such meetings, for no man regretted them more than he did, or was a greater enemy to those wild, ridiculous, and nonsensical ideas of reform that were preached about among the people, or was more ready to support the constitution. The hon. director had said, that the stamp duty arrangements of the bank had been matured before he (Mr. G.) had alluded to the topic in that House; it was, notwithstanding, very strange, that when the matter was first touched upon, the member for Surrey (Mr. Thornton) had given a very different explanation of the arrangement from

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that which actually appeared to have been entered into by the bank, and had at the same time resisted that principle, from the adoption of which the public had since derived so much advantage. He (Mr. G.) had been also contradicted in the statement, that the bank derived a profit of 300,000 l. from the management of the public debt. In fact he had not mentioned the precise sum of 300,000 l.; but had generally stated that it was near such a sum, for up to last November it was calculated at exactly 282,000 l. It was quite erroneous for the hon. director to state that the public derived an advantage amounting to 500,000 l. from the different advances made by the bank for the public service, at a reduced rate of interest; for ever since the year 1746 they had been in the habit of making advances on these terms, in consequence of their exclusive privileges as public bankers, and they had continued to do the same for similar reasons since the renewal of the charter. From a review of all the objections that he had heard urged, he saw no reason to depart from his original intention, and would therefore call for the decision of the House upon the motion which he had the honour to submit.
Mr. Manning, in explanation, begged merely to say, that he had no intention whatever to impute to the hon. gentleman the remotest connexion between his sentiments and those of certain persons out of doors. As to the statement which appeared in the British Press, of the 11th of January, he supposed it had dropped out of the hon. gentleman's pocket, and had thus found its way into publicity.
The House then divided:

For the motion.

40

Against it.

90

Majority.

50

List of the Minority.

Bankes, H.

Jones, John

Babington, T.

Lamb, hon. W.

Blair, J. H.

Lockhart, J. I.

Browne, D.

Marryat, Jos.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Mackintosh, sir J.

Brand, T.

Martin, Henry

Carter, John

Martin, John

Caulfield, hon. H.

Monck, sir C.

Dickenson, Wm.

Morland, J. B.

Duncannon, visc.

Moore, Peter

Folkestone, visc.

Newman, R. W.

Frankland, Robt.

Ossulston, lord

Guise, sir Wm,

Prittie, hon. F. A.

Halsey, Jos.

Ponsonby, rt. hon. G.

Jervoise, G. P.

Rashleigh, W.

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Romilly, sir S.

Wilberforce, W.

Russell, lord W.

Webb, Ed.

Scudamore, R.

Wynn, C. W.

Smith, Robt.

TELLERS.

Smith, Wm.

Grenfell, Pascoe

Smyth, J. H.

Hamilton, lord A.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

MOTION RELATING TO THE PAYMENTS IN SPECIE BY THE BANK.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonrose to submit a motion, which could not, he imagined, lead to a diversity of sentiment. It was, "That there be laid before this House, a copy of any notice given by the directors of the bank to the public in the year 1816, respecting any payment of their notes in specie; also an account of the amount of specie which in consequence of such notice the said company of the bank became liable to pay on demand; and an account of all specie actually paid in consequence of such order, to the latest period the same can be made out." The noble lord stated, that his object in calling for these returns was, to demonstrate the opinions he entertained upon the subject. It might be said, that the information he sought ought to remain a secret with the bank directors, who were its proper depositories, and in whom the utmost confidence should be placed. For his own part, he confessed that he could not pay implicit confidence in those personages, and that his experience taught him rather to distrust their proceedings. The noble lord, in illustration of his opinion, adverted to the evidence given by certain of the directors before the bullion committee, who broadly affirmed, that it was immaterial to the bank, whether the restriction was continued in perpetuity, or at once withdrawn. In calling the attention of the House to this subject, he did so from a conscientious feeling, that the prosperity of the country was connected with the affairs of the bank. His own experience convinced him that the interest and prosperity of the affairs of the bank, and those of the country, were mutually connected, but acted upon in an inverse ratio. The prosperity of the bank always kept pace with the distresses of the country. The one decreased as the other advanced, and so the operation of cause and effect would continue as long as the present mode of management was protected. The entire regulation of the bank affairs should not be vested in the directors, to the exclusion of the interposition of that House in behalf of the public. The noble lord

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proceeded to point out the baneful effects that were endured by the public from the influence of the bank upon the circulating medium of the country, which was at one moment greatly augmented, and then suddenly withdrawn by the operation of the issue or recall of paper money. Admitting that bank paper had not been depreciated, was there no evil in the fluctuation which was incidental to the present course of things? Was the transition of price, in the articles of life, no evil for the public? Or had it not produced the greater part of the distress which all now deplored? He would ask, whether the country had not borrowed money at a rate of 15 s. in the pound, and was now paying it at a rate of 20 s.? His present object was merely to seek information, and he only required the addition of dates and sums to the information already communicated to the public. He was far from requiring any improper interference with the concerns of the bank; he merely wished to protect the public from a serious loss in the management of its general accounts. The noble lord concluded by putting the motion with which he set out.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his anxiety for the resumption of cash payments at the bank. As to the motion before the House, nothing, in his opinion, could be more improper than any inquiry on the part of the House into the preliminary means by which the bank prepared to carry its intention of resuming cash payments into effect. It was impossible that the bank could at any time resume those payments, without being furnished with ample treasure for the purpose. The particular transaction to which the noble lord's motion, referred was highly creditable to the bank, for it showed the sincere disposition of the directors to pay in specie at the earliest possible moment. Their notice stated their readiness to pay a part of their notes in this manner; and the right hon. gentleman here repeated his former observation relative to the smallness of amount which was demanded from the bank, in consequence of the notice alluded to. The resumption of cash payments could only be undertaken with great confidence in the public; and how could this confidence be maintained if parliament, in the face of the public, should exhibit a jealousy and want of confidence in the directors? This would overturn the whole arrangement for resuming cash payments, and do as much injury to the re-appearance
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of the metallic currency, as could be effected by an absolute prohibition. The bank had been now six months preparing to collect the treasure necessary for resuming cash payments, and they were thus to be interrupted in their first public step. If public circumstances continued, as there was every likelihood they would the bank, would be able to pay in specie on the 5th July 1818. If the state of exchange continued to improve, and the price of bullion to fall, there could be no doubt that this resumption would take place. In this state of things, with the drain which necessarily was taken from the country by non-residents, by the consumption of the British army beyond the allowance paid by France government was yet able to issue two millions and a half of silver currency; there were, then, the most sanguine hopes that the bank would be able to carry its intentions into effect. If the noble lord's motion were acceded to, it would be only the prelude to others, which would interfere with the existing state of the arrangements making for the resumption of cash payments. He would therefore oppose it.
The motion was rejected without a division.

ATTENDANCE OF MEMBERS AT ELECTION BALLOTS.
Mr. Wynn Mr. Wynn moved, "That upon days appointed for taking into consideration any Election Petition, no member be allowed to depart from the House, from the time when Mr. Speaker shall begin to count the House, until either the order for the consideration of such petition be discharged or adjourned, or till the list of forty-nine members be completed."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his warm approbation of the motion. It was highly disrespectful and unbecoming, that members should go away under such circumstances; and he was sure that gentlemen, on reflection, would see the necessity of some regulation on the subject.
The Speakerin putting the question, suggested the propriety of giving the sergeant at arms authority to tell members who might be leaving the House that they were acting inconsistent with their duty, and with the rules of the House.
The question was put, and agreed to.