Commons Sitting of 5 February 1817

ANSWER OF ADMIRAL LORD EXMOUTH TO THE VOTE OF THANKS.
The Speaker acquainted the House, that he had received from admiral lord viscount Exmouth the following Letter, in return to the thanks of this House:
"Sir, "London, 5th February, 1817.
"I have had the honour to receive your letter of the 3d instant conveying to me the unanimous thanks of the House of Commons for my humble services before Algiers on the 27th of August last, together with their thanks to rear admiral sir David Milne, and the several captains and officers of the fleet employed upon that occasion, and their acknowledgment and approbation of the services of the seamen and royal marines then serving in the fleet under my command: also communicating to me the thanks of the honourable House to vice admiral baron Van de Capellan and the naval forces of his majesty the king of the Netherlands under his command, for their cordial assistance and co-operation on the same occasion.
"It will be a most gratifying part of my duty, in compliance with the request of the honourable House, to make known these resolutions to the several officers under my command, and also to those of our ally acting in co-operation with his majesty's navy on that service; and I can assure you, Sir, as well in their names as in my own, that this honourable testimony of the approbation of the House of Commons will be received by them as it is by me, as the greatest reward that can be conferred upon an officer for any act of his public duty, and the recollection of it will, I am confident, stimulate our future exertions whenever our country may call for our services.
"I have now to request, Sir, that you will permit me to return you my sincere thanks for the very gracious manner in which you have been pleased to communicate to me the resolutions of the House, and the flattering expressions with which

219
you have appreciated the importance of the service confided to my execution.
I have the honour to be, Sir, &c.
EXMOUTH."

BALLOT FOR COMMITTEE OF SECRECY.
Lord Castlereaghmoved the order oil the day for proceeding to ballot for the Committee of Secrecy, which was agreed to, and the ballot ordered to proceed. The Speaker then desired the clerk to read over the names of the members in the order of their counties, and desired such members as had prepared lists of names for the committee to deliver them at the table. The clerk then read over the names of the members in the order of their counties. Many members deposited their lists in the glass now on the table. The Speaker desired the clerk to read over in the same order the names of all those members who had not answered to the first call: which the second clerk accordingly did. The Speaker observed, that it would then be necessary to appoint a committee to ascertain those members on whom the choice of the House had fallen to compose the committee.
Mr. Broughamobserved, that there was clearly a considerable loss of time in the present mode of proceeding in the election of a committee of secrecy. About an hour had been occupied in receiving the lists in the urn on the table, and after this they must appoint scrutineers, who must retire and cast up the numbers, and then decide who were precisely the 21 members elected for the committee, as the individuals chosen freely and deliberately for an investigation, which might be so important to the interests of the country. The practice of balloting had unquestionably many recommendations for cases of this description; and the time it occupied was of little consequence when compared with the probabilities of a fair, due, and unbiassed election; but notwithstanding all this, he thought the time of the House might have been conveniently saved on this occasion, had the noble lord merely risen, and read over a list of the persons whom he intended to form the committee of secrecy. He believed he might almost venture to predict the names of all the members who would be chosen; so that the business might have been got through without the necessity of any committee of scrutiny, or of going through any sort of arithmetical operation. He should read to the House a list, which he
220
held in his hand, of the members likely to be elected for the committee on a subject of so much importance. Whether that list would turn out to be a true one, the result of the scrutiny would show. He then read from a paper the names of lord Castlereagh, lord Milton, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Canning, Mr. Bathurst, sir William Curtis, Mr. Lamb, Mr. Bootle Wilbraham, Mr. W. Elliot, The Attorney-general, The Solicitor-general, lord Lascelles, Mr. Wilberforce, sir A. Pigott, Mr. Egerton, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Rose, Mr. F. Robinson, Mr. William Dundas, Sir John Nicholl, and admiral Frank. He would put it to the House, therefore, if this list proved correct, whether the time might not have been saved.
Lord Castlereagh moved, that Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Freemantle, Mr. Macdonald, and Mr. Brogden, be appointed a committee of scrutiny to ascertain the 21 members on whom the election had fallen. This was accordingly ordered, and in about an hour, Mr. Brogden reported from the above committee, that they had examined the lists, and found that the majority had fallen upon the following persons; viz. lord Milton, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. W. Elliot, lord Castlereagh, lord Lascelles, Mr. Bathurst, Mr. W. Lamb, sir A Pigott, Mr. F. Robinson, sir John Nicholl, the Solicitor-general, the Attorney-general, Mr. Canning, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Wilbraham Egerton, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Bootle Wilbraham, Mr. Dundas, Mr. Rose, sir William Curtis, and admiral Frank.
There was a laugh at the conclusion of the reading of this list, it being nearly the same as that anticipated by Mr. Brougham. The list was approved of, and the committee received the necessary instruction.

PETITIONS RELATING TO REFORM, &c
Lord Cochranerose to present the Petition of the distressed inhabitants of the metropolis and the vicinity, praying for reform, agreed to at Spa-fields, on the 2nd of December last. It was signed, he said, by 24,000 names. It complained of the intolerable weight of taxation, of the distresses of the country, and of the squandering of the money extracted from the pockets of an oppressed and impoverished people, to support sinecure placemen and pensioners. It appeared to the noble lord surprising, how there could be any set of men so cruel and unjust as to wallow in wealth at the public expense, while poor

221
wretches were starving at every corner of the streets. The petition was drawn up in temperate, respectful language—more temperate indeed than he would have employed had he dictated the terms in which it should be conveyed. He was instructed to say, in answer to falsehoods and misstatements that had gone abroad, that the meeting which had voted this petition had not been in the least accessary to the riots and disturbances which alarmed the metropolis on the day on which it was voted. These disturbances originated in the violence of certain persons called the Spenceans, who had adopted the wild theory, that the land of the country did not belong to the present proprietors, but to the government, who were bound to make a fair distribution of its produce among the people. Nothing could be more frantic and absurd than such a scheme; for what would ministers, who had already made such rapid strides in ruining the country, with the means put into their hands, not execute if they could grasp all the landed property of the nation? The state to which we were reduced could only have been brought about by a corrupt mode of sending members to parliament. The noble lord adverted again to his own electioneering experience at Honiton, where votes were openly, avowedly, and unblushingly sold. He could produce the bills of the money, he had paid for his seat, and could appeal to the testimony of a member of the House who saw him discharge them. When he asked who was the favourite candidate, he was told by the electors of this borough, that it was Mr. Most, for they would give their support to him who would pay them most for it. A reform was not only necessary to put an end to such disgraceful scenes of bribery and corruption, but to prevent the government from squandering the public money in procuring the return of members, who, in the first instance, cost the country the price of their seats, and ever afterwards sold themselves to the ministry. He was instructed to say, that every obstruction was thrown in the way of procuring signatures to this petition. Publicans were threatened with being deprived of their licences if they either signed it themselves or allowed it to remain for signatures at their houses. The gas-light men were likewise intimidated by their masters. The noble lord would not pledge himself for the truth of these statements; but when the people were suffering so much, when they were labouring under
222
the most grievous distresses of which we can have any conception, or which any tyranny could inflict, death by starvation being as terrible as suffocation in the black hole of Calcutta, he did think that they had a right to state their complaints, and to command an attentive consideration of them. The petition prayed, as a remedy, for annual parliaments and universal suffrage.—The noble lord moved that it be brought up and read, which it was accordingly.
Mr. Grenfellwished to submit to the House an observation or two in consequence of this and other petitions, although he was sensible of how little weight his opinions were. He would not touch the great question of parliamentary reform; but, feeling as he did, the blessings we enjoyed as a nation, venerating the constitution of his country from the deepest conviction of the benefits it conferred and the excellence of the institutions it protected; believing that it secured to all who had the happiness to live under it a greater degree of practical liberty and individual enjoyments than ever fell to the lot of any other nation in any other age, he could not free his mind from some alarm at the disorganizing doctrines that were now so industriously propagated—doctrines which had formerly been propagated in this country, which had been abandoned from a sense of the evils with which they were pregnant, and which he never expected to see again prevalent; doctrines which being wildly followed in a neighbouring country had produced results not only disgraceful to human nature, from their atrocity and cruelty, but destructive of liberty itself. Acting under the impression of danger from the wild schemes afloat, but not relaxing in his vigilance in watching the expenditure, and recommending every practical reduction that might allay popular irritation or alleviate national distress, he was prepared to concur in any measures that might have for their object to resist the machinations of those men, some of them deluded, but others wicked and dangerous, who under the name of reform, were endeavouring to effect revolution, and to involve the country in anarchy and confusion.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

SAVING BANKS BILL.
Mr. Rose, in proposing to the House a motion for leave to bring in a bill to regulate Saving

223
Banks, did not think it necessary to take up the time of the House by entering into any discussion upon the subject, as it had been very fully debated during the last session. There were only two clauses in the bill on which it had appeared that any difference of opinion prevailed; and these were, the clause which related to investing the deposits in the funds, and that which related to the poor-rates. As this was not the proper stage for discussing any objections to these clauses, he contented himself with saying a few words in favour of these banks, and expressed his opinion that when they came to be generally introduced, they would gradually do away the evils of the system of poor laws. When it was considered that no less a sum than seven millions was annually raised at present for the benefit of the poor, and yet that complete relief was not afforded to them, it would be allowed that any measure which tended to alleviate the pressure of the poor-rates, and to ameliorate the condition of the lower orders of society, was of the utmost importance, and deserved in the greatest degree the protection and encouragement of the legislature. He concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for the protection and encouragement of Provident Institutions or Banks for Savings."
Sir C. Moncksaid, it was not his intention to oppose the motion; but when the proper time came, he should certainly oppose the two clauses alluded to by the right hon. gentleman. He understood the object of the present bill to be to enact certain regulations for the management of the institutions in question; but as he had heard no complaint of any want of bye-laws in those saving banks already established, and as there had been no petition presented, he was inclined to think that this bill would be unnecessary, although he did not wish prematurely to express any opinion against it. He fully concurred in the sentiments of the right hon. gentleman as to the utility of saving banks.
Mr. Curwenconsidered it impossible that, in the event of the funds falling, any subscriber wishing to draw out his money should be able to receive the sum which in the first instance had been deposited with the directors of these provident institutions. He was of opinion, that the person funding should have this option, whether he would invest it in one fund or the other. Whatever might be thought
224
of their utility, he was satisfied it was an error to imagine they could essentially contribute to the alleviation of the present distressing situation of affairs. It was not a feather in the scale of our difficulties. The embarrassment was too great to be checked by such temporary expedients as this, or many others, suggested by those who were glad of having any thing to suggest. From what he had learned on this subject, he firmly believed that not seven, but more than ten millions would of necessity be levied on the public in one way or ether, for the support of the poor of this country; and even that would be found inadequate to the emergency. Yet although England had already subscribed, or suffered to be levied in the shape of poor-rates, more money than all Europe beside had done for its collective poor, had those great exertions relieved them in any satisfactory degree, or had it rendered them happy? Nothing short of a measure which, in its nature, might have a compulsory influence over the minds of the people, to teach the peasantry and the poor that the means of relief, the means of content and happiness, were within the reach of their own exertion and industrious application would be effectual. From the first passing of the poor laws up to the present day, he had seen this alarming evil increasing. The poor were daily becoming more numerous and more importunate. Some time ago it was ascertained that full 13 l. per cent. had been levied upon landed property; latterly, he imagined, it was not far short of 15 l. per cent.; and he should not be much surprised if it amounted this year to 20 l. This was the result of misconception and mismanagement. He did not like the idea to go abroad into the country, that no change was about to be made with reference to the present system. It could no longer go on, and ministers and members must join hands in remedying the grievances so generally felt both by the poor and the land-holder. In a farm near Leeds, consisting of 120 acres, he knew the proprietor had been required to contribute a guinea per week as his quota to the poor; and, at this moment, there were 800 persons, besides the regular paupers of that town, pressing upon the resources of the people of Leeds. In many instances the poor-rates were felt twice as severely as the property tax; and, before the House was prorogued, it would be necessary to come to some decisive measure upon this alarming subject.

225
As for saving banks, he thought they were likely to do much good, though he did not think they were likely to be resorted to by the common run of men, in such times as these.
Mr. Rosewas anxious that it should not go forth, that he had said that the poor-rates would be diminished by the institution of saving banks. All that he said was this; that when the annual amount of the poor-rates was seven millions, it was highly desirable to employ any remedy which might tend to ameliorate the condition of the poor by stimulating their industry, and thus gradually and slowly, though still in the end effectually, operating to the diminution of the distresses of the lower orders, and consequently, as he apprehended, ultimately enabling many of the lower classes to provide for themselves, who would otherwise be a burthen on the public. As the benefits and advantages of these institutions seemed to be allowed on all hands, he would only for the present say, that he conceived that the passing such a bill as that which he intended to introduce, was absolutely necessary for the prosperity of these institutions. An hon. gentleman thought that, in the present times, these banks were not likely to do for the common run of people of the lower classes. Now against this, he would say, that they would do for the common run of people; that he knew from his own experience, that they would do; that in his own neighbourhood at this very time he knew many labouring people, who, amidst all the distresses of the times, paid a shilling a week into the saving banks.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that his right hon. friend proposed to introduce a system which would teach the poor what they were capable of doing by their own exertions. He therefore really felt that this was one of the class of things for which he, the House, and the country, were extremely indebted to his right hon. friend. The poor laws, no doubt, were a very heavy burthen in these times, but it was rather the administration of those laws than the laws themselves which had produced the evil. If the measure which his right hon. friend proposed did nothing more, it was much if it brought the principle into action which should gradually show the people, that they were capable of doing that for themselves which they now called upon the country to do. For his own part, admitting, in the fullest degree, the evils which the poor laws pro-
226
duced, he was more inclined to attribute those evils to the mode in which the system was administered than to the defects of the system itself. The system of these laws was such, that it always enabled the poor to know where they would find relief. But whatever difference of opinion there might exist as to the poor laws, it was of all things desirable to countenance and foster so sanative a principle as that on which saving banks were founded.
Mr. Lockhartconceived, that it was impossible at present to alter the system of administering the poor laws. All that could be submitted to the overseers was, the immediate wants of those who applied, and the number of their families, and they were then obliged to administer relief.
General Thorntonapprehended, that the intended bill would produce more harm than good. Last year the right hon. gentleman had withdrawn Scotland from his bill, and England was now going on extremely well without such an act of parliament. He had supported the right hon. gentleman in this measure last year, but he was now of another opinion, and thought it quite unnecessary.
Leave was given to bring in a bill.