Commons Sitting of 28 April 1817

CIVIL AND MILITARY OFFICES CONTINUANCE BILL.
Mr. Ponsonby having moved the second reading of this bill,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that if the measure were one of a larger extent—if it went to alter the general principle, that all the servants of the Crown should hold their offices from the grant of the monarch immediately on the throne, it would be a proposition new in its nature, and one which would require considerable deliberation. The bill, however, merely went in the event of the demise of the Crown, and the accession of the illustrious personage who now held the office of Regent, to continue all the present offices, a great proportion of which had been granted under the regency, and thus to prevent considerable inconvenience and delay. He had no objection whatever to the bill applying as it did to a special case, and leaving untouched the general principle. He only hoped, that the right hon. gentleman would allow an interval of eight or ten days between the second reading and the committee merely to give an opportunity for the bill to be looked into with reference to its particular wording.
Mr. Ponsonbywas happy that the noble lord regarded the measure in the same light in which it was introduced, and agreed that much convenience might, whilst no ill consequences could, arise from it.
The bill was then read a second time.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OR IRELAND.
Sir H. Parnellrose for the purpose of presenting to the House the Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. It intreated, he said, the favourable attention of the House to their peculiar condition under the pressure of the
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penal laws, by which they were so severely affected. It stated that they had taken every oath of fidelity and allegiance. They referred to the acts of the Irish legislature for repeated proofs of loyalty; notwithstanding which they remained subject to the severe disabilities enforced against them, in consequence of their conscientious adherence to the religious doctrines of their forefathers. They disclaimed all latent, all sinister motives whatever; and maintained, that any imputation of that nature was repelled by their numbers and character. Their object was direct and avowed;—it was to obtain an equal participation in the civil rights enjoyed by their fellow subjects. The prayer of the petition was, that their case might receive the favourable consideration of the House of Commons. He would not trespass further on the House, were it not that the petition contained another clause of great importance to the discussion which was soon to take place on the subject. By that clause an opening was given for the satisfactory adjustment of that long disputed point relative to ecclesiastical security. The House would agree with him, that the claims set up on the one side to security, and the denial of those claimson the other, had occasioned the frequent failure of the cause of the catholics in parliament. Those claims had been founded on the apprehension of foreign interference in the nomination of the Irish bishops. When plans were suggested for affording a security against this danger, the catholic bishops, in 1808, published a resolution, declaring that, in their opinion, it would be inexpedient to alter the existing mode of nomination; and the laity soon followed their example. But now a complete change had taken place in their sentiments—a change so great, that all must admit that the approaching discussion would take place under circumstances altogether different from any that had hitherto occurred. The Irish bishops no longer adhered to their resolution. On the contrary, they proposed an arrangement which was calculated to meet all the dangers apprehended by those who had hitherto opposed the catholic claims. The clause to which he had just adverted, and which he begged leave to read, contained this proposition, with a distinct avowal of the acquiescence, of the great catholic body in the opinion of the catholic prelates. They stated in the clause, that in thus addressing the legislature, they were naturally

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desirous of conciliating favour, and obviating the objections which had heretofore been made to a compliance with their wishes; and that they entertained a conscientious conviction that all the important differences existing on the subject might be happily reconciled, by the adoption of the domestic nomination of the catholic bishops, in which the catholic bishops were ready to concur, and which would meet with the most cordial approbation of the catholics at large. He trusted that this declaration would be considered by the House not more important in its substance than in the temperate and proper language in which it was expressed.—It was necessary for him to explain, in some degree, the plan that it was intended to propose. He was able to do so on the authority of a prelate of the catholic church; who stated, that the chief objection which had been long urged in the discussions in parliament respecting the appointment of the catholic bishops, was, that although on a vacancy the Irish prelates recommended an individual to the pope, the pope was not obliged to attend to their recommendation, but might instal any other person, even a foreigner. In order to obviate that objection, the Irish prelates offered to procure from the pope a concordat, that he would not institute any other person as a prelate than the one recommended to him by them, his majesty's liege and sworn subjects. The catholic prelates and the catholics at large offered to bind themselves by oath to choose no one for recommendation to the pope, but a native of the empire, and one whom they conscientiously believed to be loyal in principle. They further proposed, that all the catholic bishops and clergy should swear not to disturb, or attempt to overturn, by fraud or by force, the civil and religious institutions of the empire, or to interfere with the existing settlement of property. They had been assured by eminent persons in the confidence of the pope, that he would not object to sanction these offers, if they were likely to give satisfaction to the legislature, and to secure the desired relief to the catholic body. Here, therefore, was a proposition directly meeting the objection urged, of danger arising, from the foreign influence of the pope, by rendering future nominations in every respect domestic.—He had felt it his duty to state thus much, in the hope that hon. members would take the subject into their most serious consideration, and
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would possess themselves of every necessary information respecting it, that they might be duly prepared to come to a wise decision on the motion that was soon to be submitted to them by his right hon. friend—He wished to say a word or two on that which might to some appear an inconsistency on the part of the catholics—the continuance of their objection to the Veto. The present was not the time for going into a detailed explanation on this subject. But the catholics objected to the Veto on conscientious principles; conceiving that to accede to it would be, in effect, to give to the Crown the nomination of the bishops; which was contrary to the discipline of the catholic church, and would tend to the final extirpation of the catholic religion. He was enabled further to say, that should the general outline of this plan of domestic nomination be approved of, but should it be thought that it might be rendered more efficient by additional regulations, the catholics would have no objection to accede to any propositions which might be thought necessary to the security of the Protestant institutions, and which would not endanger their own. He would now move for leave to bring up the petition.
General Matthewcongratulated the House and the body of the Catholics, that this long contested question was likely to be met, both on the part of the catholic body, and the members of his majesty's government, with that spirit of conciliation, which he hoped was a favourable omen of the success of the question. He was, as well as the catholics themselves", aware of the fair, candid, and honourable manner in which the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh), had expressed himself both in that House and elsewhere, on the subject of the catholic cause, as well as two more worthy individuals, his colleagues in office. Surely it was not too much then to expect, that the cause at last would be triumphant. For eleven years he had anxiously watched the progress of the catholic claims, a cause in which he was doubly interested, first as as an Irishman, and secondly as a Briton. They had succeeded each year in removing one source or other of objection to their character or their claims. They asked not now emancipation, they merely demanded a fair and dispassionate examination of their claims in a committee. The catholic he was happy to find, was disposed to lay aside all party spirit, and anxious to leave no stone

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unturned to effect a spirit of conciliation on the part of the Crown, and the warm supporters of the constitution in church end state. He hoped none would be presumptuous enough to disturb this harmony by throwing a firebrand into their debates—that no Patrick Duigenan would be found to tell of the bloody days of king Henry, the bloody queen Mary, the confiscations and persecutions in the time of the commonwealth—that all this trash and inflammable matter, these tales of gossips to frighten children out of their wits, would no longer disgrace their debates, or irritate those whom they ought to be solicitous to soothe. He could not but most fervently hope, that ministers would weigh well the responsibility of their situation, with reference to this question. The eyes of six millions of suffering countrymen, who, to the disgrace of the age in which they lived, were in a state of political degradation, were fixed upon his majesty's government in this crisis. It was time for ministers to tell the people and the country, before the question was decided, the nature and extent of the securities which they would affix to their support of emancipation. This they could only do in a committee. The catholics of Ireland deputed to London two distinguished characters, competent to give every information on the subject of the affairs of the catholic clergy, and the particulars of their connexion with the see of Rome. The characters to whom he alluded were Drs. Murray and Everard, the one titular archbishop of Cashel, and the other of Dublin. They were ready to give every information which any member could require on the subject. On the subject of securities, as they were called, all he would say was, that the general question was universally conceded, if proper securities were provided, for the permanence of the protestant establisment. He had authority to say, that the catholic bishops whom he named, were ready to give that security; they were ready, so far as domestic nomination went, to give every satisfaction on that head; and there could no longer be any excuse for putting so many millions of loyal and peaceable subjects out of the pale of the constitution. He was glad to see the noble lord (Castlereagh) in his place, for, he was sure, he should have his concurrence in stating, that the old bug-bear of foreign interference was completely at an end. If they would only enter into the committee, every thing
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could at once be adjusted. He stated from authority, that the pope, that cardinals Gonsalvi, Litta, and others were ready to give every assistance in the good work of concession, if we would only here set them the example. If any objectionable points, in the intercourse of the catholics at Rome with the holy see, were pointed out, all parties were ready at once to redress them. His feelings were warm on this subject, because he felt it to be the cause of his injured countrymen, the Roman catholics of Ireland.
Mr. Webbersaid, that no man was more anxiously disposed than himself to concede every civic right and privilege under the constitution, to the Roman catholics, whenever that concession could be made with safety to the state. He had all his lifetime been in the closest and most cordial habits of intimacy with a great many persons of that community, and he could bear testimony to their public and private worth. But in looking at the great question of Catholic Emancipation, he must abstract it from the narrow consideration of personal character. He would admit, with the most sanguine advocates of the catholics, their loyalty and peaceable demeanour in all ranks of society; but his objections were not founded on the personal characters of the men—they went to the whole system itself. He would now only say, that if it was ever his fate to hear this question discussed in the British parliament, he would previously expect to have the question of securities fully considered and decided. If the general debate were entertained at all, it ought certainly be subsequent to the decision on that point. He had no hesitation to say, as the painful result of his conviction, that the concessions claimed by the Roman catholics would, if granted, effect nothing short of an incipient revolution in the protestant church of Ireland. Such being his painful conviction, he was bound to mention it. The hon. baronet had thought proper to refer to the question of securities, and the manner in which they originated. He begged to state the mode in which he understood that matter had been started. Here the hon. gentleman stated the origin of securities in the year 1799, and traced the temper in which they had been urged. He concluded by saying, that the catholics of Ireland had a right to concede that which was uniformly granted in every other country in Europe.
Mr. Blakerose, not only on the part of

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his catholic constituents, who signed the general petition, to protest against the opinion of the hon. gentleman who spoke last, but also for the honour and dignity of the Commons House of parliament. The hon. gentleman had said, that if this question was conceded, the protestant church of Ireland would be subverted. It ought to have been unnecessary to remind the hon. gentleman, that the records of parliament were evidence that the principle of the question had been conceded, and that the only remaining question was as to the nature and extent of the ecclesiastical arrangements which should be affixed to the concession. Originally, the catholics of Ireland rejected the sort of securities which were required of them altogether, but more ample and deliberate discussion and investigation had removed their first impression, and brought them round to a more temperate view of the subject. It remained, then, to be considered (both parties being in a temper coolly to look at the subject), what these concessions should be—whether domestic nomination would meet the view of parliament, whether the Veto should be exacted. In saying thus much, it was not his intention to become the defender of any persons, whoever they may be, who agitated Ireland by angry debates on this subject; all he meant to say was, that those acrimonious discussions, so far from furnishing an argument against the question being entertained, rather rendered it imperative upon the House to set at rest a subject that could at any time be converted into a peg on which irritable topics could be hung to the injury of the peace of the community.
The Petition was then brought up and read, setting forth,
"That the petitioners beg leave most respectfully to solicit the favourable attention of the House to the peculiar condition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, under the severe penal laws now in force against them; if the petitioners appear to the House to persevere with more than common earnestness in their humble solicitations for the abrogation of these laws, and for a free admission to the blessings and benefits of the civil constitution of their country, they trust that their perseverance will be viewed rather as a proof of their just title to the liberty which they seek, and of their sincerity in its pursuit, than as the result of any sentiment hostile to the peace or true interests of this empire; the petitioners should sincerely dread
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lest their silence might be construed by a faithful but feeling people as an indication of despair, and they would not lightly abandon the pursuit of a laudable and most important object, strengthened as they are by the concurring support of their generous and enlightened fellow-countrymen, as well as by the fullest approbation of their own conscientious feeling; they beg leave humbly to state to the House, that they have publicly and solemnly taken every oath of fidelity and allegiance which the jealous caution of the legislature has from time to time imposed as tests of their political and moral principles; and although they are still set apart (how wounding to every sentiment of honour) as if unworthy of credit, in these their sworn declarations, they can appeal confidently to the sacrifices which they and their forefathers have long made, and which they still make, rather than violate conscience by taking oaths of a spiritual import contrary to their belief, as decisive proofs of their profound reverence for the sacred obligation of an oath; by those awful tests they have bound themselves in the presence of the All-seeing Deity, whom all classes of christians adore, to be faithful, and bear true allegiance to their most gracious sovereign lord king George the third, and him to defend to the utmost of their power against all conspiracies and attempts whatsoever against his person, crown, or dignity, to use their utmost endeavours to disclose and make known to his majesty and his heirs all treasons and traitorous conspiracies which may be formed against him or them, and faithfully to maintain, support, and defend, to the utmost of their power, the succession to the crown in his majesty's family, against all persons whomsoever; that by those oaths they have renounced and abjured obedience and allegiance unto any other person claiming or pretending a right to the crown of this realm; that they have rejected as unchristian and impious to believe the detestable doctrine that it is lawful in any ways to injure any person or persons whomsoever, under pretence of their being heretics, and also that unchristian and impious principle, that no faith is to be kept with heretics; that it is no article of their faith, and they renounce, reject, and abjure the opinion, that princes excommunicated by the pope and council, or by any authority whatsoever, may be deposed or murdered by their subjects or by any person whatsoever; that they do

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not believe that the pope of Rome, or any other foreign prince, prelate, state, or potentate, hath or ought to have any temporal or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority, or pre-eminence within this realm; that they firmly believe that no act in itself unjust, immoral, or wicked, can ever be justified or excused by or under pretence or colour that it was done for the good of the church, or in obedience to any ecclesiastical power whatsoever; and that it is not an article of the Catholic faith, neither are they thereby required to believe or profess that the pope is infallible, or that they are bound to any order in its own nature immoral, though the pope or any ecclesiastical power should issue or direct such order, but that on the contrary they hold that it would be sinful in them to pay any respect or obedience thereto; that they do not believe that any sin whatsoever committed by them can be forgiven at the mere will of any pope, or of any priest, or of any person or persons whatsoever, but that any person who receives absolution without a sincere sorrow for such sin, and a firm and sincere resolution to avoid future guilt, and to atone to God, so far from obtaining thereby any remission of his sin, incurs the additional guilt of violating a sacrament, and by the same solemn obligations they are bound and firmly pledged to defend to the utmost of their power the settlement and arrangement of property in Ireland, as established by the laws now in being; that they have declared, disavowed, and solemnly abjured and intention to subvert the present church establishment for the purpose of substituting a Catholic establishment in its stead; and they have solemnly sworn that they will not exercise any privilege to which they are or may become entitled to disturb and weaken the Protestant religion or Protestant government in Ireland; the petitioners can, with perfect truth, assure the House, that the political and moral principles asserted by these solemn and special tests are not merely in unison with their fixed principles, but expressly inculcated by the religion which they profess; and they do most humbly trust, that, as professors of doctrines which permit such tests to be taken, they shall appear to the House to be entitled to the full enjoyment of religious freedom under the happy constitution of these realms; frequently has the legislature of Ireland borne testimony to the uniform peaceable demeanor of the
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Irish Roman Catholics, to their acknowledged merits as good and loyal subjects, to the wisdom and sound policy of admitting them to all the blessings of a free constitution, and of thus binding together all classes of the people by mutual interest and mutual affection, yet may the petitioners represent to the House with sincere regret and deep solicitude, that the Roman Catholics of Ireland still remain subject to severe and humiliating laws, rigidly enforced and universally felt, and inflicting upon them divers injurious and vexatious disabilities, incapacities, privations, and penalties, by reason of their conscientious adherence to the religious doctrines of their forefathers; for more than twenty years the progress of religious freedom has been obstructed, and, whilst other christian nations have hastened to unbind the fetters imposed upon religious dissent, the Roman Catholics of Ireland have remained unrelieved; the penal laws operate for no useful or meritorious purpose, affording no aid to the constitution in church or state, not attaching affection to either, they are efficient only for objects of disunion and disaffection, they separate the Protestant from the Catholic, and withdraw both from the public good, they irritate man against his fellow-creature, alienate the subject from the state, and leave the Roman Catholic community but a precarious and imperfect protection, as the reward of fixed and unbroken allegiance; the petitioners forbear to detail the numerous incapacities and inconveniences inflicted by those laws, directly or indirectly, upon the Roman Catholic community, or to dwell upon the humiliating and ignominious system of exclusion, reproach, and suspicion, which they generate and keep alive; perhaps no other age or nation has ever witnessed severities more vexatious, or inflictions more taunting, than those which they have long endured, and of which but too large a portion still remains; relief from these disabilities and penalties they have sought through every channel that has appeared to them to be legitimate and eligible; they have never conscientiously violated, or sought to violate, the known laws of the land, nor have they pursued their object in any other manner than such as has been usually adhered to, and apparently the best calculated to collect and communicate their united sentiments accurately without tumult, and to obviate all pretext

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for asserting that the Roman Catholic community at large were indifferent to the pursuit of their freedom; the petitioners can affirm with perfect sincerity, that they have no latent views to realize, no secret or sinister objects to attain, any such imputation must be effectually repelled, as they humbly conceive, by the consideration of their numbers their property, their known principles and character; their object is avowed and direct, earnest yet natural, it extends to an equal participation of the civil rights of the constitution of their country equally with their fellow-subjects of all other religious persuasions, it extends no farther; they would cheerfully concede the enjoyment of, civil and religious liberty to all mankind, they ask no more for themselves; they seek not the possession of offices, but mere eligibility to office, in common with their fellow-citizens, not power or ascendancy over any class of people, but the bare permission to rise from their prostrate posture, and to stand erect in the empire; in thus addressing the legislature, the petitioners are naturally desirous to conciliate all opinions and obviate all objections, and they entertain a conscientious conviction that all impartial opinions may be conciliated, and all rational objections to their emancipation defeated, by the measure of domestic nomination of their bishops, a measure in which their prelates have declared their readiness to concur, and which, if introduced by the proper authority in their church, would meet the most cordial approbation of the Catholic people of Ireland; if, in thus humbly submitting their depressed condition and their earnest hopes to the consideration of the House, the petitioners would dwell upon the great numbers, and the property, of the Roman Catholics of Ireland; already so considerable and so rapidly increasing and to their consequent most important contributions to the exigencies of the state, they would do so, not with a view of exciting unworthy motives for concession, but in the honest hope of suggesting legitimate and rational grounds of constitutional relief; may the petitioners then, with hearts deeply interested in the fate of this their humble supplication, presume to appeal to the wisdom and benignity of the House on behalf of a very numerous, industrious, affectionate, and faithful body of people, the Roman Catholics of Ireland; and to pray that the House may be pleased to take into
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their favourable consideration the whole of their condition, their numbers, their services, their merits, and their sufferings; and as the petitioners are conscious of the purity of their motives and the integrity of their principles, they therefore humbly pray to be restored to the full and unqualified enjoyment of the rights and privileges of the constitution of their country, to be freed from all penal and disabling, laws in force against them, on account of their religious faith, and that they may thereby become more worthy as well as more capable of promoting the substantial interests of this great empire."
On the motion, that the Petition do lie on the table,
Sir John Nichollrose, merely to protest against two positions that had been laid down in the course of this discussion; one was that of the hon. gentleman, who assumed that the question was now conceded, and that, in fact, nothing remained for consideration but the sort of securities with which the measure should be accompanied. He protested against an assumption that the question was reduced to such a narrow point. In saying this, he begged to be understood as having no religious antipathies; he should as cordially rejoice as any man could at the arrival of the time when those concessions could be made with safety to the established church of the country. When they could be given with safety, then would he be found their advocate. The other opinion against which he protested was, that so fondly and confidently indulged by the hon. baronet and gallant general opposite, that the time had now; arrived when success must crown their endeavours. In this anticipation of success at the ensuing debate, he could by no means participate; on the contrary, his notion on that point was quite the reverse; for, so far from seeing any thing more favourable to the Catholic cause, in the present state and circumstances of the united kingdom and of Europe, from those of a: former period, he thought he saw a variety of reasons for thinking that it by no means stood on a better footing than it did when last discussed. Such was his view, but he would reserve the reasons on which this opinion was grounded until the proper stage of the debate arrived.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table; as was also a petition to the same purport presented by Mr. W. Smith from the Roman Catholics of Warwick and Staffordshire.

PETITIONS RELATING TO REFORM, &c
Sir R. Fergussonsaid, he held in his hands a petition from the inhabitants of Dunfermline and its vicinity, praying for parliamentary reform. The petition was couched in most respectful terms, and, like all the others which he had presented from that part of the country, it stated that the petitioners were suffering severely under a depression of trade, occasioned by the grievous burthens to which they were subject. With respect to Spencean Societies, if they existed at all, in this very large and populous town, they had never been heard of, till they were brought forward in the debates of parliament. They prayed for a full, fair and free representation of the House of Commons, totally independent of the influence of the Crown. They likewise particularly called the attention of the House to the state of the representation of Scotland, which they considered as no representation at all.
Lord Cochranesaid, that during many years he had resided in the neighbourhood of Dunfermline, and then those persons who were now petitioning, maintained themselves by the manufactures which were established in that part of the country; but now, in common with so many other manufactures in this country, they had fallen into decay, in consequence of the burthen of taxation, till at last the wages of the workmen were altogether inadequate to their support. Unless a diminution of taxation should take place, it was impossible that the people could be relieved, and so long as places and pensions should be the reward of subserviency, so long would the burthens continue, and those persons remain unrelieved. It was necessary, therefore, that parliamentary reform should take place—that that House should be purged—that its members should act for the benefit of the country at large, and not with a view merely to the circumstances of their own families, or the rewards which might be given to them. All assistance by way of issue of exchequer bills, whether to the extent of two millions or fifty millions, would be found unavailing—all came out of the pockets of the people. He had lately been down into the county of Kent, where he could not help being struck with seeing the mansions of the country gentlemen almost all deserted, and to be let or sold, the families having left the country. The only relief which the chancellor of the exchequer could grant, was a dimi-
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nution of taxation—all other remedies were futile. The chancellor of the exchequer would find himself before two years were expired, compelled to reduce the interest of the national debt. And where would be the injury? Had they not seen the value of land reduced one half, and all other property reduced in value. They found it at present necessary to issue exchequer bills to support an enormous military establishment. And for what? to keep down the people, who were suffering under an insupportable taxation. The only relief which they were to obtain was the Cottage tax. They did not think of relieving them from the other heavy and grinding taxes—from the salt tax for instance, which took 20 s. a year from every poor man in the kingdom. By the malt and salt taxes alone, the people paid more than all the higher classes twice told. It was, perhaps, useless to petition, but still if they did not do so now, it would soon be too late. He had lately seen many persons lying starving about the hedges and ditches. That the higher ranks were unable longer to bear the burthen, was proved by the measure which the chancellor of the exchequer was about to propose. That measure, however, would not relieve that class of men by whom the present petition was presented; and with respect to industry, good morals and religion, the conduct of no class of men was more praiseworthy than that of the present petitioners.
Mr. Grenfellrose to make an observation on a suggestion now made by the noble lord, for the second or third time, which was nothing less than a deliberate proposal for a breach of public faith with the public creditor—a proposition which he trusted, not even the authority of the noble lord would be sufficient to impress on the good sense and good principles of the great mass of the British people. He could not conceive a proposition more destructive in its principle, or more contrary to every true principle of national faith, than that propounded by the noble lord.
Lord Cochraneobserved, that when he brought forward the motion, which it was his intention to submit to the House on this subject, it would be then seen whether there was any thing derogatory to national honour in the reduction of the interest of the national debt.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that having already thrown out hints of his opinion on the subject, be should think himself deficient

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in political courage if he remained altogether silent on the present occasion. He did not think, however, that the subject ought to come before the House in a by way; he thought this a most improper mode of entering on a question of this sort, which he wished to see taken up at large on its own grounds. Whatever opinion he entertained on the subject, he should have no objection to deliver it when the question came before the House.
Ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION OF THE ACADEMICAL SOCIETY.
Mr. Wilberforcerose to present, a Petition from certain members of the Academical Society, who had applied for a licence under the bill passed in the present session for preventing seditious meetings, and to whom that licence had been refused. The society was of the most respectable nature: but when a deputation of the members had applied to the London sessions for permission to continue their discussions, some of the sitting magistrates refused to grant the licence, on the ground that it was the intention of the act of parliament to prevent political discussion altogether. How such an interpretation of the act could have been put forth by these magistrates, he was at a loss to imagine. He could only say, that he himself, as well as others who had assented to the bill, had never imagined that such a construction would be put upon it; and, indeed, the declaration implied total ignorance of the act itself. However, as the question had been decided against this society, and as no appeal was open to it, the members were compelled to have recourse to the House.
The Petition was then read, setting forth,
"That the Academical Society originated in the year 1793, in a private circle of students in the University of Oxford; but most of the members having become resident in London, the society assembled there in the month of November 1798, and has since continued its meetings without interruption to the present time; that the objects of the society, as settled by its rules, are, the investigation and discussion of philosophical, literary, and historical questions, subject to the following restrictions, that controversial theology shall not be introduced, and that no observation shall be made upon any living character of the United Kingdom, under which regulations the general principles of poli-
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tical science, together with the practical illustrations of them which history affords, are discussed at its meetings; that, under the regulation for the admission of members, the society consists, and has always consisted, exclusively of persons who have been members of one of the Universities of the United Kingdom, the college at Maynooth, one of the four inns of court in England, the faculty of advocates of Scotland, or King's inns in Ireland; that visitors are permitted to be introduced by members as hearers only, each member being considered responsible for the respectability of every stranger he may introduce; that, upon the passing of the former acts of parliament for the suppression of seditious assemblies, the society caused applications to be made for a licence to hold its meetings, which was granted and renewed from time to time during the operation of those acts; that, upon the passing of an act in the present session, intituled, "an act for the better prevention of seditious meetings and assemblies," it was determined again to apply for a licence; that, in pursuance of such determination, a petition was presented, by a deputation of members of the society, to the magistrates of the city of London, in general quarter sessions assembled, at the Justice hall in the Old Bailey, on Tuesday the 15th instant, praying that a licence might be granted, authorizing them and the other members of the Academical Society to hold their meetings as heretofore for the investigation and discussion of philosophical, literary, historical, and political questions; that, on Friday the 18th instant, the court, after having considered the petition, refused to grant the licence, it being stated by two out of the four magistrates present, that the object of the act was to prevent all political discussion whatsoever? that no appeal from the decision of the court of quarter sessions being provided by the act, the petitioners are compelled to apply for relief to the House; that the members of the society being persons either in or preparing for the learned professions, or other departments in public life, the acquirement of the habit of public discussion is to them of the greatest importance; and that feeling the benefit derived in that respect from the Academical Society, they beg to present their grievance to the attention of the House; and they regret that they are compelled to intrude themselves upon the attention

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of the House, and pray that they may receive such assistance and relief as under the circumstances the House may think fit to grant."
Mr. C. Grant, jun. said, he had the honour of being a member of the Society of Academics, and was greatly astonished when he heard of the very unwarrantable exercise of authority by which a licence had been refused to so respectable and intelligent a body.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that before he had known that this petition would have been presented, he had given notice of a motion en the subject. He wished to call to the recollection of the House, that one of the strongest arguments urged by that side of the House against the bill was this very circumstance—that a power would thus be put into the hands of magistrates which might be (as in this case it had been) misused; and which would tend to destroy the most valuable right of Englishmen—that of political discussion. It was almost impossible to conceive how such a construction could have been put on the act; but after such an occurrence, it became the duty of ministers to take this opportunity of declaring their opinions on this important subject. Though the magistrates, who in this case had out-Stepped the bounds of the law, had not wilfully transgressed it, yet it was not improbable, that among the motives which induced them to take the course they had pursued, was the opinion that their interference might be agreeable to those high in office. He would call to the recollection of the House and the magistracy, the explanation of discretionary power, as those words were used in acts of parliament. "That discretion," said lord Mansfield, "should be a sound discretion guided by law; it should be a rule, not determined by individual humour, arbitrary, vague, and fanciful, but legal and regular." He would ask whether the conduct of the magistrates in this instance had been guided by a discretion sound, legal, and regular—whether it had not indeed been in the extreme, vague, arbitrary, and fanciful, and prejudicial to the best interests of the subject? He hoped ministers would stand forward and declare that the magistrates had totally misunderstood the act, if they did not do so, he should give notice immediately of a bill to explain the act in question.
Mr. Bathurstknew nothing of the case which had been brought before the House
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but from the petition itself, and consequently could not ascertain whether the conduct of the magistrates had been guided by any private opinion as to the nature of the society or the characters of its members. But taking the allegation of the petition that the licence was refused under the idea that it was the intention of the legislature to prevent all meetings for the purpose of political discussion to be correct, he could only say, that no one who had sat in the House during the discussions on that measure could imagine that such was its intention. The discretion left to the magistrates under this bill was that which had been described in the eloquent words of lord Mansfield. It never entered into the heads of those who proposed the measure to prevent every discussion by any gentlemen however enlightened, and for purposes however innocent.
Lord Miltonwas as ignorant as the right hon. gentleman of the motives of the magistrates in the present instance; but he hoped, as the right hon. gentleman was ignorant of the motives of their conduct, he would feel it his duty to mode some inquiry; because, as the petition now stood, it was as much a petition against the House for passing the act in question, as against the magistrates for refusing the licence. In the present instance, where the grievance admitted of speedy complaint from the proximity of the parties, the House might interfere and afford a remedy; but this could not so easily be the case in transactions which might take place at a distance from town. He hoped, therefore, that some mode might be found of keeping the act operative as to its good purposes, and entirely suppressing the possibility of such abuses as the present.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that as parliament had intrusted a discretionary power to the magistrates, without appeal, it was no longer in the power of the government to control it. But it would become the House to consider how cautious such an occurrence should make it, in parting out of its own hands with such a power. If that power had been vested in some of the gentlemen opposite, or the hon. member who had presented the petition, in such hands such powers might perhaps have been safely entrusted. But the House, on the first alarm of some society, with an uncouth name, which hardly any one had heard, and to the exact nature or ex-

21
tent of which no one could speak, had delivered to every magistrate in the country a power so liable to abuse. It was to such men as alderman Domville and alderman Joshua Jonathan Smith—he named them to their honour—who read the act of parliament, to apply whatever meaning to it they pleased. Their decision was final and without appeal—the case, therefore, of the petitioners was without a remedy, He trusted, however, when any of the magistrates who were so zealous in their exertions under this act made applications to government, they would show the same impartiality towards them as they professed towards their acts in a judicial capacity. No names could be more respectable than those affixed to the petition, but the blunder of the magistrates, for such he was compelled to call it, had not been stated in sufficiently strong terms: they had not merely gone out of their way to Stifle political discussion, but to suppress societies instituted purely for the purposes of instruction. But this operation of the act had not been confined to them. He had reason to know that a similar society had been "put down," as it was called by the vice-chancellor of the university of Cambridge. That this circumstance was connected with the late act he only conjectured from its being immediately subsequent to the passing of that measure.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ADDRESS AND PETITION OF THE DISTRESSED MECHANICS OF BIRMINGHAM.
Mr. Broughamsaid, it had often been his painful duty to lay before the House the complaints of large portions of his majesty's subjects, but he never performed this duty with feelings so distressing as at that moment, both because the evil was so much more extensive in its pressure than at any former period, and because the prospect of relief, compared with the urgency of the case, was faint and unsatisfactory. The Petition which he had to present, was signed by nearly the whole of the labouring population of the great town of Birmingham. To prepare this petition no public meeting had been held, not even any public notice had been given that the petition lay for signatures, but three copies having been laid in different parts of the town, and the fact having become known, in less than forty-eight hours 11,000 names were affixed. At each of the places where the petition was placed, several persons of respectability attended
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to prevent any person from signing more than one name, and to exclude all those who were under twenty-one. In a few days more, the signatures amounted to 12,500, and to prevent a concourse of people from the neighbouring villages, it was deemed expedient not to suffer the petition to remain longer, lest tumult might be occasioned by the multitudes which would flock together. It was therefore from the town of Birmingham alone that the signatures were collected, which might be calculated to represent a population of 50 or 60,000 souls, probably the whole of the poor population of that town. This petition proceeded on no theories whatever; it urged no arguments or views connected, however remotely, with party questions. It was a statement, in humble but earnest and impressive language, of the degree of misery, approaching nearly to despair, to which that once flourishing town was now reduced. Before he moved that the petition be read, he should state that the misery which was felt was far from decreasing. There had, a short time ago, been an influx of orders; but that was found to be temporary, and the distress was greater than ever. The statement which he had made on the 13th of March had been too much corroborated by the accounts from Birmingham. It was then clearly shown that the misery, far from diminishing, was on the increase. The average assessment to the poor-rates during the last 12 months was 9s. 4d. in the pound; the average of the last six months was at the rate of 12 s., of the last three months 13 s., of the last week 14 s. 4d., and this average fell short of the sum actually expended in the same proportion, as 14 s. 4d. fell short of 17 s. 8d. The expenditure had, for several weeks, been 4 or 500 l. above the sum actually raised by the rates, and 100 l. per week above the expenditure of any former period of distress, however great. These facts would be sufficient to awaken the attention of the House, but he should not deal fairly with the House or the petitioners, if he did not state his opinion that the distress was, to a great degree, beyond the power of the House to relieve. It was mere vanity, not to speak disrespectfully of the proposal of the chancellor of the exchequer, for any one to expect a loan of a million, or a million and a half, could produce any sufficient relief. This was manifest by the fact, that to relieve the persons who had signed the petition in his hand, near half

23
a million yearly would be required on a moderate calculation. How was it to be expected then that the sum would spread over not only the inhabitants of Birmingham and a population three times as great in its vicinity, but those districts which, though they suffered less, still suffered dreadfully? Greatly though he lamented the necessity and their want of power to relieve it, it was proper to state that no one immediate step could afford any tolerable prospect of permanent amelioration, except that general change of policy which was the only sort of relief which statesmen should consider, though not so immediate as that of which a vain and delusive semblance was now held forth. What relief that change of policy did afford might be safely granted by parliament, and beneficially received by the country—itwould be deeply rooted and stable in its effects on the people at large, and even at this time, with a view to immediate relief, would not be altogether ineffectual.
The petition was then read. It purported to be the Address and Petition of the Distressed Mechanics of Birmingham, and sat forth,
"That the there under signed Inhabitants of the town of Birmingham beg leave to approach the House, and to inform them of their forlorn and miserable situation; accustomed from their earliest infancy to habits of continual labour, they have never been forward to obtrude their humble interests upon the public attention, but they have always placed confidence in the wisdom and justice of parliament and of their country, nor should they now have been induced to prefer their complaints, but their misery is greater than they can bear, and they are compelled to make known their distresses to the House; they are in distress, and in their misery they call upon their county for relief, they ask no more than the House will acknowledge that good citizens have a right to expect, they ask no favour, they only ask to have it placed in their power to earn an honest bread by honest labour, they only ask to be permitted to give to their country the benefit of their labour, and to receive in exchange the scanty comforts necessary for the support of life: their wants are only food and clothing and shelter from the elements; never before have they known the time when the labour of an Englishman could not procure him such humble comforts as these, nor can they now believe
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that his labour is of less value than formerly; in all former times the labour of an Englishman could produce a sufficient quantity of the good things of life, not only for his own maintenance, but to provide an ample remuneration to his country and to his employers, and they presume to believe that the labour of an Englishman is still competent to produce a far greater quantity of the good things of life than is humble maintenance requires; that some cause which they cannot understand has deprived industry of its reward, and has left them, without employment and without bread, and almost without hope; they have no longer any demand for their labour, nor any bread for their families, their life has become useless to their country and burthen some to themselves, it would be better for them to die than to live, for then they should hear no more the cries of their children, their hearts would no longer be wounded by the sight of sufferings which they indeed share, but which they cannot relieve; they implore the House not to misunderstand the expression of those bitter sufferings which they endure, hunger and poverty and distress have indeed changed all things around them, but they have not changed the petitioners, they have not changed that devoted loyalty which as good subjects they feel towards their king, nor that true English spirit which binds them to the constitution and to the House; many of them have not had any kind of employment for many months, and few of them have more than two or three days work per week, at reduced wages; the little property which they possessed in household furniture and effects, and the small hard-earned accumulations of years of industry and care, have been consumed in the purchase of food, and they are now under the necessity of supporting their existence by a miserable dependence on parochial charity, or by soliciting casual relief from persons scarcely less distressed than themselves; in the midst of these painful sufferings and privations their friends and neighbours tell them that they must wait and hope for better times they beg leave to inform the House that they have waited until their patience is quite exhausted, for whilst they wait they die; upon all former occasions of distress in any branch of trade, it was always found that some other channels of industry existed through which the honest labourer could obtain his bread, but now the petitioners find all other descriptions of la-

25
bourers equally distressed with themselves, a general calamity has fallen upon the whole nation, and has crushed the happiness of all; they would indeed indulge the hope that their sufferings are peculiar to themselves, and may have been occasioned by the cessation of the war expenditure among them, but on whatsoever side they turn their eyes, if they look to Manchester or to Glasgow, or to the crowded city or the peaceful village, from one extremity of their country to the other, they can perceive nothing but an universal scene of poverty and distress, the sighs and the tears and the convulsive efforts of suffering millions too plainly convince them that some general and universal cause must have operated in producing such general and universal misery, and they implore the House to remove that cause, whatever it may be, they cannot but think that the House can remove it, or if its roots are so deeply hidden that no human wisdom can discover them, or so strongly fixed that no human strength can remove them, they must then consider their sufferings as a visitation from Almighty God, to which they must dutifully bend; but in that case they in-treat the House will adopt proper measures for the whole nation to humble itself in mortification and prayer, in order to propitiate the divine justice, and avert those heavy calamities which afflict them; but they cannot but think that these calamities originate in natural causes, which it is in the power of human wisdom to discover and to remove; they cannot but think that, in a great nation like this, the means of existence must exist for all: they cannot but think that, in a country abounding with every blessing, and with every production of agricultural and mechanical industry, some means may be devised by which the blessings of Providence may be distributed and enjoyed, by which the productive powers of industry may again be brought into action, and the honest labourer may again be enabled to earn an honest bread by the sweat of his brow; and the petitioners humbly pray that the House will take into consideration their distressed condition, and adopt such measures as in their wisdom may be deemed necessary for the relief of themselves and of their suffering country.
"Ordered to lie on the table.

RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.
Sir Samuel Romillypresented a Petition from certain inhabitants in the county of Glou-
26
cester, complaining of the difficulties which had been so disgracefully and so successfully thrown in the way of creditors in recovering small debts. He was satisfied that the evil was more generally to be traced to the interested and unprincipled interference of legal advisers, than to a want of principle upon the part of debtors generally; but never, until within a few days, had he learned that the heedlessness of the legislature had left open so wide a door to an abuse which operated completely as a fraud upon nine-tenths of creditors for small sums, where such abuse was resorted to. He had derived this information (an information which convinced him at once of the extent of the abuse), from a letter which came into his possession, in consequence of its having been directed generally to the persons confined for debt in the gaol of Gloucester, by an attorney, whose name he should not mention, and not having been post-paid, none of the prisoners felt disposed to expend as much money as was requisite to pay its postage, however anxious they might have been to ascertain its content. The primary object of the writer, was to obtain for himself the business, as agent to the prisoners for debt in that gaol. The letter enjoined such as were confined there to sue out an Habeas, and move themselves into the King's-bench, there advising them how to file sham and dilatory pleas, and upon proceeding to get judgment, to have the office at the Temple searched by their attorney, who, beforehand, should be armed with a writ of error to be filed, recommending them, however, in case they were desirous to be particularly troublesome, to make the writ of error returnable in parliament, the additional expense of which would cost the defendant not more than 1l. while the plaintiff would thereby be put to an expense of 100 l.; that by these and similar proceedings of a dilatory nature, they might, at the moderate expense of 24 l. 9s. put their several plaintiffs to an expense of 343 l. Sir Samuel proceeded to descant on the evil of writs of error, and adverted to certain abuses which had been detected and remedied in appeal cases, suggesting that the same method of having two barristers to certify, before the writ was issued, would be the means of putting an end to the crying evil so loudly and so justly complained of.
The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

ISSUE OF EXCHEQUER BILLS FOR PURPOSES OF LOCAL AND TEMPORARY RELIEF.
The House having resolved itself into a committee to consider of an issue of Exchequer Bills for purposes of Local and Temporary Relief,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose and said, that before he proceeded to explain the purpose of the proposition which he had to submit to the committee, he should read, the two resolutions in which that proposition was comprised. The first resolution was,—"That it is the opinion of this committee, that his majesty be enabled to direct an issue of exchequer bills to an amount not exceeding 500,000 l. to commissioners, to be by them advanced towards the completion of public works, now in progress, or about to be commenced; to encourage the fisheries, and to employ the poor in different parishes of Great Britain, on due security being given for the repayment of the sums so advanced." In the next resolution, which related to Ireland, there was a difference as to form, both because there existed no parochial funds in that country, and on account of another circumstance which he should afterwards explain. This resolution was, "That the lord lieutenant of Ireland be empowered to advance out of the consolidated fund of that kingdom a sum not exceeding 250,000 l. for the completion of public works, or the encouragement of fisheries in Ireland, under condition of repayment in a time to be limited."
On every former occasion when grants had been proposed to parliament for any local purpose, a special committee had been previously appointed, for the purpose of ascertaining the nature and extent of the existing distress, and submitting to the House a specific plan for its relief. In the present case that course of proceeding was unnecessary, as the House was but too well acquainted with the nature and extent of the distress prevailing, by the numerous petitions that were lying on the table, and by the labours of the committees of last session and the present. As to the sums which it was proposed to apply to public works, the grounds on which the grant would be recommended would differ from those on which parliament had formerly been applied to for assistance in similar cases. The course in former instances had been to point out the benefits to the country in its commercial relations, from the completion of the work, in favour of which an application was made.
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But the commissioners, who were to have the disposal of this money, would particularly consider the influence the prosecution of any public work would have on the employment of the present unemployed population. Their decision would be directed by the compound consideration of the utility of the work, and of the relief which would be afforded to the persons employed in it. There were a great variety of public works which had already received the sanction of parliament, but which languished on account of a deficiency of funds necessary to prosecute them. Of many, parts were already finished, which were useless until the whole was completed. Many urgent applications had been made to the government in behalf of these works, to which it had been intended the attention of parliament should have been called in a direct manner; but it was now considered that it would be more beneficial if the money was placed at the disposal of commissioners quite unconnected with government, and who would be named in the body of the bill. These commissioners he should propose, should be empowered to advance sums, by way of loan, to corporations and other bodies, for the purpose of making harbours or canals, or to trustees of roads, or to any persons engaged in public works now in progress, or about to undertake them.:—These advances were not to be confined to those undertakings which the parliament had sanctioned; for instance, the laudable association for the encouragement of fisheries would be a very proper institution to receive aid. Works of great utility and ornament, could thus be brought to completion without ultimate expense to the public, if, as he trusted it would prove, and as had happened on former occasions, the interest on the money advanced would defray the expense of the commission, and the other charges attending the loan. The transaction would in that case be not less advantageous to the public at large, than to the individuals immediately concerned. In Ireland it would not be practicable to nominate a similar commission, without such a delay as would defeat the purpose of the grant, which was urgent in its nature. It would be necessary to enter into a correspondence with that country, to know what gentlemen would undertake a duty which would entail some trouble without any prospect of reward. To avoid that delay, the sum appropriated to that country would be

29
placed at the disposal of the lord lieutenant, to be applied to the purposes he had mentioned.
Having detailed that part of the plan which referred to the completion of public works, he felt much greater difficulty in entering on the subject of advances on the security of the poor-rates. He had never thought that any thing could be done towards the relief of the agricultural population, by the advance of any such sum as he then proposed to advance. The agricultural interest was to such an extent identified with the state, that he could not conceive any circumstance by which it could be so far separated from its prosperity or difficulties as to receive relief from any sum which parliament could wisely advance to it. He was afraid also that loans to the agricultural districts, in aid of the poor-rates, would encourage the practice of curtailing the fair wages of labour, and of supplying the deficiency by assistance from the poor-rates. They might also be tempted to throw on the poor-rates of the present year those for whom they might otherwise find employment. On these accounts the relief of the agricultural distress did not form a part of the measure. When the bill was before the House there would be found clauses which would guard against such an idea. The advance to be granted to parishes was never to exceed the half of the rate of the last year, and no advance was to be made to any parish except in cases in which the rate was double the average of the two preceding years. Though the measure did not embrace the relief of the agricultural districts, it was hoped that it might afford a temporary relief to that species of distress which had that night been brought under the notice of the House, and it was to communications from the place from which the petition that night had been presented, (Birmingham), that the present measure was in part to be attributed. Undoubtedly that distress was lamentable, but he thought there were reasonable hopes of a speedier relief than the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham) seemed to anticipate.
By this grant, indeed, he was induced to calculate, that such an important impulse would be given to the industry of Birmingham, as probably would afford the means of permanent relief to that town, which had suffered so particularly in consequence of the transition from war to peace—that that transition had materially affected Birmingham, would be ob-
30
vious from this fact, that during the war no less than three millions of small arms had been manufactured there for the use of the allies, independently of those provided for our own supply; and of course the cessation of such a demand, in consequence of the restoration of peace, must produce a most material result. But it was in this respect only that the trade of Birmingham had suffered, for it appeared that the export trade of Birmingham was not on the decline, at least in the same proportion as the home trade. The official value of the exports of steel and iron in the last three years was as follows;—In 1814, 1,094,000 l. In 1815, 1,127,000 l. In 1816, 1,054,000 l. Being in the last year nearly the same as in 1814. The hardware and cutlery, which formed a distinct article, were as follows:—In 1814,354,000 l. In 1815, 871,000 l. In 1816, 782,000 l., here it would be seen that the amount of exports under this head had only fallen ten per cent, in the last year below what it was in 1815, while it fully doubled that of the exports of the preceding year. The money value of the steel and iron exports was as follows:—In 1814, 1,143,000 l. In 1815, 1,280,000 l. In 1816, 1,095,000 l. The money value of the exports of hardware and cutlery within the same period were in proportion to his former statement of their official value. It appeared, therefore, on the whole, that the manufactures of Birmingham had not fallen off, except in articles for the purposes of war, and from this he was led to believe that the distress which afflicted that town was merely in consequence of the cessation of the demands of government, while, with respect to foreign trade, that town had suffered no material diminution. In this conclusion indeed, he was confirmed by the information of those who were best acquainted with the trade of the country, and most competent to judge upon the subject. From such sources, he learned that the loan of 30 or 40,000 l. to the manufacturers of Birmingham would be of material service under existing circumstances.
For the distress of Birmingham, as well as for that which affected other parts of the country, he felt the most lively interest, and therefore he rejoiced in the exercise of private benevolence to alleviate that distress. Noble examples had been given by individuals in this respect. But every one must be aware that private benevolence could not suffice to afford permanent re-

31
lief. While it was in activity, he was impressed with the conviction that it would not become government to interfere. But the fact was, that the resources created by that benevolence were nearly, if not altogether, exhausted, and therefore it became the duty of government to contribute its aid for the relief of the industrious poor, not only by every practicable economy in the public expenditure, but by an actual loan to those who had an opportunity of giving employment to industry. He felt indeed so strongly the peculiar situation of Birmingham, as described in the petition* presented by an hon. and learned gentleman and so fairly animadverted upon by that hon. and learned gentleman that he should have conceived himself bound to submit a distinct proposition with regard to that town, but upon consideration it was deemed more just and expedient to submit a resolution couched in general terms, which might embrace all cases of real difficulty, with a view to guard against error and oversight, and to render the application of relief as extensive and beneficial as possible. That due provision would be made by the commissioners to be appointed to guard against the misapplication of these means there was every reason to conclude, and as to the details of the plan to be pursued for this very desirable purpose, he thought it better to leave those to be arranged by the collective wisdom of the House, while he should be ready to afford every explanation in his power with respect to the views of his majesty's ministers. He had not the presumption to suppose that what he suggested would be at first in such a perfect state as not to call for great revision. What views might be entertained by other gentlemen, or what objections might be urged against the plan which he had submitted, he could not presume to anticipate, but that plan was liable to correction, and it would, he trusted, be put in the most perfect, practicable shape, by the consideration and judgment of the House. His proposition at present was, that the resolutions which he held in his hand should be adopted, and, when printed, submitted to further consideration on Friday next, or on any other day which might appear most convenient to the House. But he begged leave to observe, that dispatch was of the utmost importance in a question of this nature, and that no delay in the arrange-
* See p. 23.
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ments proposed should be allowed that could possibly he avoided. The right hon. gentleman concluded with proposing his first resolution.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose, he said, not to make any captious objection to the right hon. gentleman's plan, which he did not yet correctly understand, but to observe that the right hon. gentleman had not stated the mode in which the repayment of the proposed loans was to be secured. This was certainly an omission which it was desirable to supply. The omission was, perhaps, casual, but it was one of such importance, that he hoped the right hon. gentleman would favour the House with some explanation as to the manner in which, and the time when it was proposed that these advances should be repaid.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, in reply, that it was his intention to leave the details as to the execution of his plan to be considered and adjusted by the House. He had, however, no objection to present an outline of his views with respect to the repayment alluded to by the right hon. gentleman. In the first place, he proposed that the exchequer bills to be issued should be payable in three years, that is, in 1820; and that security should be taken for the repayment of the several advances by instalments, so that the whole should be re-paid to the commissioners by the time when the exchequer bills became payable by the state. But that, in case it should be expedient for the completion of public works to allow a farther time, the commissioners should be empowered to extend it for six or seven years from the period of making the loan. It was also proposed that the several loans should bear an interest of five per cent, while the exchequer bills should be issued at their present rate of 3¼ per cent, and the difference would of course be for the advantage of the public. The securities to be taken for the proposed advances would be naturally had from those persons who were interested in the manufactures or public works to which those advances would be made, probably from the proprietors, and it would be for the commissioners to look to the adequacy of those securities. The security ought, of course, to be equally satisfactory as that required by individuals lending money, and this would operate to prevent the commissioners from making any injudicious advances. The commissioners it was to be presumed would not advance loans unless they were fully convinced of the

33
utility of the public works or manufactures, for whose benefit those loans were to be made, of the competency of such establishments to provide an adequate indemnity and of the impossibility of completing them, or carrying them on, without assistance.
Mr. Blakesaid, it was with much diffidence he obtruded himself upon the attention of the House, but upon a question of so much importance as the present, it might be possible for the most humble individual to suggest something useful. The principle of the proposed plan he took to be an advance of money for the relief of the labouring classes, usually employed in agriculture only. [Here the chancellor or the exchequer stated, that the relief proposed was not intended exclusively for the agriculturists.] Mr. Blake said, he regretted to find he was in a mistake, because he thought the landed interest ought now, especially when it was comparatively so depressed, to meet a larger share of the attention of the House than the commercial interest. It was plain the plan was not to operate as a substitute for the poor laws farther than as its effect would be to diminish the number of persons who would otherwise be obliged to resort to their aid. He submitted, that on the proper application of the funds, which it was proposed to raise, depended the success of the plan; for if a beginning should be made, by giving direct assistance to those who usually laboured in the arts and manufactures—they would be enabled, it was true, to continue their usual avocations, but in the end parliament would increase their stock on hand, and thereby remove their prospect of a market. The only effectual relief, which could be found for the manufacturer was a market. If a market were found for the manufacturer, he was at once supplied with money, and a market would always ensure a supply more than equal to the demand. He was sorry to hear that it was intended to expend so much money in public works. This would depress further the price of land. Land was the grand source of our commercial prosperity—it was the source of our revenue. Public works were generally understood to mean works of ornament rather than of productive utility, and the money expended on them should not be repaid by a taxation on land; but if the money should be expended in the enclosure and cultivation of waste lands, and in the extending and
34
improvement of the inland navigation of the country, the very produce of this expenditure would not only repay the sum borrowed, but would leave a considerable surplus to the owners of the soil, and at the same time create a circulation of money, which would open a market for the manufacturer, and thus relieve every class of the population. But if this effect was to be looked for in England, how much greater and more beneficial must it be in Ireland. In England, improvement might be said to have arrived almost at perfection, but in Ireland nature had done more than in England, yet there she was totally unassisted by art; nay, in some instances, artificial canals were made upon so stupendous a scale, as to lead one to suppose that it was intended to subdue rather than assist the natural advantages of the country. The Irish, ardent to imitate England, did so upon a plan of magnificence, utterly inconsistent with the hope of remuneration by trade, and thence the derangement of their canal speculations; but if, instead of imitating the English, whose country was suited to such undertakings, the Irish only connected their numerous navigable lakes with each other, and with the sea, the experiment would produce, in a very short time, a noble accession of wealth to themselves and increased strength and prosperity to the general interests of the empire. It was under this view of the subject he conceived it to be his duty to suggest to the right hon. gentleman, that the funds intended for Ireland would be best applied to works of the description to which he had just adverted.
Mr. Philipsdeclared his inability to comprehend the nature of the security alluded to by the chancellor of the exchequer. Did the right hon. gentleman mean to confine the proposed loans to public works actually begun? ["No, from the treasury bench, "they are to extend to works to be begun."] As these loans were to be granted for the construction of public roads, how, he would ask, were the parochial rates to be relieved by pledging these rates to the persons who should become security for the repayment of the loans? Such a plan would, in his opinion, rather tend to augment the rates and to aggravate the evil so loudly complained of. Then as to manufactures, it was a delusion, to conceive that this plan would afford any relief; for to his knowledge the manufacturing towns did not want capital

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to give employment to labour, but a marker for the sale of their productions. Show them a market, and the manufacturers would soon find the means of going to it. It was, therefore, a mockery to suppose that the proposed advance would be productive of any advantage to the manufacturers, and it was equally delusive to say that the distress of the country was (with the exception of the harvest), only of a temporary nature; for the fact was, that we were broken down by the pressure of taxation. This was the great evil, that by taxing every article of export, we were rendered unable to sell our produce or manufacture on reasonable terms, especially to foreigners. Again, as to the system of securities proposed by the right hon. gentleman, it was obvious that the establishment of such a system must interfere most injuriously with the transfer of property. For who could calculate that under such a system any property purchased might not most unexpectedly be swept away by an exchequer extent, or extent in aid. The whole system of the right hon. gentleman was indeed pregnant with difficulty and delusion, while the only effectual way of relieving the distress of the country was, to reduce our public establishments, and to introduce a rigid economy into every branch of the public expenditure, to which he feared neither the right hon. gentleman nor his colleagues were in any degree disposed.
Mr. Grenfellexpressed a wish to know in what way it was intended to advance the proposed loans, whether in specie or in bank-notes—whether the exchequer bills were to be put into the hands of the bank, there to remain with interest accumulating upon them for three years, or lent at once to the parties from whom they required securities to be taken? He suggested, that it would be very practicable to issue exchequer bills of 100 l. or 50 l. each, and so to render them a part of the circulating medium of the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that the intention was, to issue exchequer bills, as in former cases, at 100 l. or perhaps at 50 l. each, to the parties giving the required securities, and thus from the regulation of interest, they might be taken at par, and so become a part of the circulating medium of the country. But he should enter further into the details on a future occasion. With respect to the observations of an hon. member, he could assure him that he had no greater wish
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than any other gentleman to practise delusion on the country; but he had no hesitation in stating, that he was completely of opinion, that the distress of the country was only temporary. Indeed, if such was not his opinion, he must regard not only the present, but any plan that human wisdom could devise, as a mere delusion, and insufficient to remove the evils complained of. But the object of the project which he had submitted was, to relieve the distress of an unfavourable season; and in so doing, it was proposed to follow the examples of 1793 and 1811, neither of which had been found productive of inconvenience.
Lord A. Hamiltonwished to know what was the mode of security to be adopted in Scotland, where there were no poor-rates?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that in parishes in which there were no poor-rates, personal security would be substituted.
Mr. Lambwas anxious that it should go forth to the world, that the vote of exchequer bills now proposed was not to give relief in the vulgar acceptation of the phrase, but to employ the poor. He wished this to be understood, as otherwise sensations might be excited in the people from their being told that a large sum of money had been voted for their relief that would prove but delusive and vain. He thought there would be some difficulty in getting that security given which it was intended to demand. Without this plan of the right hon. gentleman, there was no difficulty in getting capital advanced, where good security was offered. The only difficulty was how to employ capital to advantage. The plan for lending money to parishes he thought would be attended with some inconveniences; but the regulations under which the chancellor of the exchequer had proposed it should be advanced, were, in his opinion, extremely wise, and obviated many of the objections which otherwise might have been urged against the measure. Some guard, he thought, ought to be obtained, to prevent land from being pledged as parish security by the occupier, to the prejudice of the owner. Great burthens might fall on landlords, if occupiers made mortgages without their landlords consent.
Lord Cochranethought the money should be given to the people as a repayment for what had been taken from them, and that no securities should be required.

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The minister spoke of certain districts suffering chiefly by the transition from war to peace; but were not all our manufacturers suffering? The plain fact was, that all our manufacturers were borne down by excessive taxation. It was called preposterous to think of reducing the interest of the public debt. At present, land scarcely fetched half its value, and provisions had fallen in price; yet all this distress existed. We had been told from authority, that commerce would revive; but had that been the case? Would the chancellor of the exchequer say, as a man of honour, he believed that under the present pressure of taxation, manufactures and commerce would revive? That revival was obviously impracticable. All articles, whether for home or foreign consumption, were loaded with taxes; and it was demonstrable, that the manufactures of France and Germany came to market with advantages over ours. Notwithstanding all our machinery, our skill, and our capital, we were beaten out of our trade. Our whole navy could not prevent the introduction of contraband goods; and if we could manufacture cheaper, our articles would be sure to find their way to the continental markets. Our distress was brought upon us by a profligate expenditure. A great evil existed in the pensions, sinecures, and rewards given by ministers to subservient persons. Unless that system were stopped, he should despair of all hopes of relief. Great rewards were given for doing what a man should be ashamed to do. A larger army would be wanted, if the public were to be pressed down universally to find means to enable the fund holders to contract for loans and jobs. The present plan was nugatory and contemptible: the poor-rates were stated to have been nearly twelve millions in one year. What, then, could this relief effect? A pamphlet by an hon. member stated, that every man paid at least 10 l. a-year in taxes. Why was a labourer so much more able in America to rear his family, but because he had less taxes to pay, to support an army, navy, and civil list? If they put a sponge on the whole public debt, and threw the books into the sea, the country would not be poorer. Bank-notes passed now like guineas, but some time ago they were at a very low rate. Ought not the fund holders to share in the public sufferings with others? It was just and indispensable that they should do so. All expedients must prove nuga-
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tory. What good would the relief afford in Birmingham, when they could not manufacture arms, because nobody wanted them, and when more knives and scissors were made than there was any demand for? The manufacturers were absolutely supported out of the poor-rates. It was essential that some radical remedy should be applied, and that could not be done without great general retrenchments and reductions.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, he was not sure he understood the measure now proposed by the right hon. gentleman; indeed, he was rather inclined to think that he did not understand it. He was willing to suppose that it had been brought forward with the best intentions; but he was certain, if it were intended to produce good, it should be quickly put in operation. He therefore had no desire to impede the progress of the measure, but, on the contrary, felt; sincerely desirous of promoting it. He had heard enough, however, to convince him, that the House could not enter into the consideration of the whole question, till the bill was regularly before them. The right hon. gentleman would do well, therefore, to bring in the bill as soon as possible. At the same time, he wished distinctly to state, that he should not consider himself bound, in consequence of thus assenting to all the previous steps, to approve of the measure itself, when he had fully considered it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that nothing could be more fair or candid than the proposition of the hon. member; and he should be far from considering any individual pledged to approve of the measure hereafter, merely on account of his voting for the resolutions. Nothing was more improper than to enter into the details of the measure in the present stage. He therefore reserved several explanations he had to give till the proper opportunity for offering them. As to the remarks made by a noble lord, he thought them altogether unworthy of examination; or reply.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, if the plan were even more objectionable than it appeared at the first view, yet there was something so pleasing to the mind in the idea of providing relief for the present distresses of the poor, that he could not for a moment bring himself to oppose the consideration of any scheme which seemed likely to attain that object.
Lord Miltonsaid, it would certainly be

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very invidious to throw any obstructions in the way of a measure which was intended to relieve the poor; but, at the same time, it was essential that the House and the country should clearly understand the nature of the measure, which he was sure had not been the case, with respect to the House, until that evening. And he knew that out of doors an opinion prevailed, that it was intended for the relief of the poor generally. In fact, one object of the measure was only to facilitate the means of giving employment to those persons who happened to be so locally situated, that works of a public description were carrying on in their neighbourhood. The other object was, to enable particular parishes to afford parochial relief, where the poor-rates were above the level of a certain ratio. He confessed he doubted the practicability of the plan, especially with regard to the latter point, because the distress that was felt in many parishes, arose not merely from the want of labour, but from the want of a market whither the product of that labour could be carried, and because the funds applicable, to parochial relief were rapidly crumbling away. Now, the proposed plan would not assist those funds. It might place a certain quantity of money at the disposal of the overseers, but then it was to be recollected, that every parish which accepted of such assistance contracted a parochial debt. He would suggest the propriety of dividing the resolution into two distinct propositions, the one, for employing the poor in places where public works might be carrying on the other, for extending aid to particular parishes. His reason was, because there might be various opinions upon those two points, and because it would be desirable that if and relief were granted by parliament the act should be marked with as much unanimity as possible.
Sir E. Brydgesconcurred in the propriety of the proposed measure, and should have been glad if a greater sum had been determined upon. He thought it was the only mode of relieving the people, for labour was the foundation of wealth; without labour the people could not be happy, or the state prosperous.
Sir J. Newportadverted to the injurious effect which would probably be produced by the apprehension of becoming liable to a crown process. If extents of the Crown were so formidable to persons who became debtors of the Crown for ob-
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jects of their own, was it likely that many would be found willing to incur such a liability for purposes of a merely charitable nature? He was afraid that consideration would prove greatly detrimental to the operation of the measure, unless some means were adopted to guard against it. Another objection was this: one of the main objects of the plan was, to afford aid to inland navigation, to afford the means of cutting canals through the country. Now, there were canals already begun, which individuals might wish to carry still farther. To enable them to do this, they might apply for a part of this money. Having become debtors to the Crown, to a certain extent, the consequence would be, that, if they were not able to repay the loan, the Crown would have an opportunity of sweeping away the whole property, to the injury of the private creditors, whose money had been expended in the commencement of the work. The Crown would not come in rateably, like the private creditors, and take its share with the others. It would swallow up all the funds of the concern, and thus, instead of doing good would inflict injury. He owned he did not see at present, how the proposed plan could have any advantageous operation; at the same time, he was far from feeling any disposition to oppose a scheme for relieving the distresses of the country if it had but the slightest probability of being feasible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that where persons failed in their repayment of the loan, and process was issued against them in consequence, a provision would be made in the bill, to prevent the Crown from having a priority over the other creditors. As to the suggestion, that the resolution should be divided into two parts, he believed so many public works would be found for the employment of the poor, as to render such a division unnecessary. He wished to hear every objection that could be fairly stated to the measure, and would feel obliged by any corrections upon the plan as proposed by him.
Mr. Babingtonobserved, that one part of the resolution went to give employment to the poor, on public works; the other was intended to relieve the poor in parishes. Now, in very many parishes there were no public works. How, then, were the poor to be employed? If the overseers, in the manufacturing districts, became manufacturers (their capital being

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the public funds), in order to give employment to the poor, they would not manufacture on commercial principles, and would prevent private individuals from continuing in business. This would turn so many people out of employ, that they could not be supported by the public purse. He had had occasion, in his part of the country, to see instances of this evil. Where bounty was bestowed, five times as many were deprived of work as were employed through such forced means. Wages, too, were increased in consequence of such application. The evils altogether arising from creating manufactures by means of a bounty from government appeared to him insuperable.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there was no intention to exact as a condition, from the parishes which might apply for aid, that they should use the money in providing employment for their poor. At the same time, it would be highly desirable, that the relief granted should be, as much as possible, in the shape of work, leaving it to the parish to select the particular description of employment. Generally speaking, he apprehended that public works, such as roads, buildings, bridges, canals, &c. would be the kind of occupation selected, as requiring merely labour, and not any particular kind of skill.
Mr. Hallexpressed, generally, his approbation of the plan.
Mr. Lytteltonshould not now inquire what might be the details of the bill, or what the objections that might be urged, but there were one or two points upon which he wished to say a few words. The right hon. gentleman, in his opinion, had assumed certain facts which he did not think were tenable. First, that the present distress was greatly owing to the want of capital. He did not conceive that to be the case; and indeed, as far as his information extended in regard to that part of the country with which he was more immediately connected, he knew it was not. It was rather a want of the means of employing capital and rendering it productive. Next, the right hon. gentleman asserted, that if capital were advanced at 5 per cent, interest it might be usefully employed in public works. With respect to public works, he did not know what magic there was in those words. If public works were productive, private adventurers would still be found willing and able to prosecute them. Roads, canals, bridges were to be
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made. If those who now carried on these works were unable of themselves to go on with them, or to carry them to a greater extent, any others must become losers by attempting them. What use or benefit could be proposed by forcing forward such works beyond the demands and interests of the country? As to fisheries, he should waive any observations upon them, for there might possibly be some which only required funds to be carried on with vigour. With regard to the distress felt in particular parishes, what was the nature of the relief proposed to be extended to them? In plain words, when a parish was bankrupt, then assistance was to be afforded, and for which assistance its bankrupt funds were to be taken as a security, unless, indeed, some kind of personal security was to be superadded. He should like to know in what sense the right hon. gentleman talked of personal security. Did he use the expression in the meaning which was commonly given to it in the commercial world? Or did he look to the security of real property? If to real properly, then that would in the first instance be attached by the exchequer, and the person would afterwards be seized and thrown into gaol. In all human probability, the scheme would be perfectly nugatory, as applicable to parishes. Unless they could provide a market for the produce of labour—unless they could revive the commerce of the country—he did not see how the issue of exchequer bills could be of any benefit, for they would not create resources.
Mr. C. Grantjun. said, the measure must first present itself to the House as one intended for the relief of certain individuals. Great numbers of persons being thrown out of employment, were in danger of starving—to them it was intended to afford succour; and the question next was, how that succour should be bestowed? Undoubtedly, it was much better to give it on the score of labour, than as a gratuity; and, therefore, he highly approved of his right hon. friend's plan. It was not intended, that the money advanced should be laid out in the establishment of manufactories. It would be most impolitic to do that. Such a proceeding would only have the effect of forcing manufactories into the market when there was no sale for them. The same observation, he conceived, applied to agriculture. By pursuing the plan of his right hon. friend, they would support the morals of the

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people by teaching them industry, while they perfected works that would be most useful and ornamental to the country. That was the proper course of proceeding instead of forcing into a market already overburthened, an additional quantity of manufactures.
Sir M. W. Ridleyconfessed, that he did not exactly understand the right hon. gentleman's plan. In the case of money lent to perfect a turnpike road, independent of the security of the tolls, he understood that a personal security would be given by the borrower to the lender. He wished to know, whether, in parishes, a personal security was required, as well as one on the poor-rates? The right hon. gentleman observed, that the difference between the interest paid by the public for the exchequer bills, and that which would be demanded of the borrowers, would meet every expense incidental to the plan. Now, he begged to inquire, whether the commissioners were to receive salaries or large gratuities?
The Chancellor of the Excheqaerreplied, that personal securities must be given to the commissioners, as well in the case of parishes as of public works. With respect to the second question, he should merely observe, that on other occasions of a similar kind, gentlemen had been found who devoted their services to the public gratuitously; and it was to be hoped that no difficulty would be experienced in discovering individuals equally disinterested in the present instance.
Mr. Broughamsaid, he agreed with what had fallen from his right hon. friend below him, that it would be most painful to his feelings if he should find himself compelled to interpose any obstacles in the way of the present measure. It would be arrogance in him, however, imperfectly as he yet understood its nature, to argue upon its general character; and he could only express a hope that it might be found practicable, and calculated to overcome many of the objections to which it at first appeared liable. At the same time he wished to take that opportunity of expressing one or two doubts that prevailed in his own mind. In the first place, as to the manner in which the money was to be employed. It was evident, that it would be chiefly, if not entirely, applied to the promotion of public works. As to the idea of parish officers becoming manufacturers, it was so prepostrous, that its absurdity hardly
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required to be illustrated. It was impossible they should be able to carry on any branch of manufacture, either with benefit to the community or with comfort to themselves. The idea was equally absurd, as applicable to agricultural pursuits. Public works, therefore, of some kind or other, would be the objects to which the money must be applied. But then a difficulty immediately occurred. What now kept public works from going on? Was it the want of capital solely? He was afraid not. He was afraid it was the want of a demand for public works, and that canals, bridges, and roads, were not now wanted, for the same reason that other productions of labour were not wanted. If they were found no longer to answer the views of private adventurers, it was not likely they would ever tempt persons to become debtors of the Crown for the sake of carrying them on. If, on the other hand, they were desirable speculations, would not the money that was necessary for their continuance, be borrowed in the usual way? For it would have this advantage, that no exchequer process could be issued against the borrower, and it appeared that the usual Crown process was to be employed in recovery of whatever sums might be lent in pursuance of this proposition. The only effect of the measure would be a facility of obtaining loans. It would throw 1,500,000 l. into the market, and thus facilitate loans; and this would be its only effect, its only benefit. With respect to canals, he believed there was nothing which had been more overdone in this country than that description of improvement. Besides, the assistance in that way must necessarily be very limited. At best there were but two canals at which work could be increased. About three docks might be found to be made throughout the country. Then, as to roads and bridges, he believed there was no slowness, even in the present distressed state of the country, in making roads where they were wanted. The advantage was so evident and the benefit so immediate, that capital to undertake them was seldom deficient. Perhaps application might be made for assistance to finish a bridge or two, but even there his own hopes were not very sanguine. It surely was not intended to make canals, and then to get water to go into them; to build bridges over places where there was no water. What relief, then, were the distressed throughout the country to derive

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from this measure? With regard to parochial relief, he doubted whether any great advantage would be derived from that part of the plan. He would take Birmingham for example, from which place he had that night presented a petition, signed by upwards of 12,000 persons, who were out of employ. He might fairly, however, estimate the unemployed male population of that town and its neighbourhood, who were capable of work at 25,000. According to the proposed plan, by which the relief afforded to a parish was to be in the proportion of one half of what it annually paid in poor-rates within a certain period, Birmingham would be entitled to receive only 30,000 l., having paid for some time past at the rate of 60,000 l. a year for the relief of its poor; that was about 22 or 23 shillings a piece! But suppose to that were added 50,000 l. for a canal, a road, or a bridge. The whole relief which that sum would afford, at ten shillings a week for labour, would only be to employ 2,000 out of the 25,000 for one year, at wages of 10 s. a week, a sum hardly sufficient for the support of life. These things he mentioned solely to guard against disappointment; to prevent expectations from being entertained that never could be realized.—There were two other points on which he had his doubts, and which he would shortly state to the House. The first regarded the mode of recovering the sum lent by exchequer process, if the security could not otherwise be made available to the public. He did not think such rigour was necessary, and, that if applied, it would defeat the objects of the plan. Although this was the usual mode of recovering the debts of the Crown, yet an act of parliament could easily dispense with it, and exclude the operation of extents. If the measure was at all intended or expected to yield relief, let the security upon which the advance was to be made be the same as that demanded by other capitalists, and nothing more. If the process of extent was to hang over all those who availed themselves of the means of encouraging labour and completing public works, there would be no individual, or associations of individuals, who would expose their property by stepping forward to take part of the loan. Corporations might be found to borrow on corporation funds, in which they felt no personal interest, but private persons would never run such a risk.—A second point to which he wished to call
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the attention of the House, and upon the proper settling of which he entertained some doubts, was the manner in which the fund, supposing it to be called for, was to be distributed; who were to be the persons under whose management the exchequer issue was to be placed, and what were the regulations to be made to guard against abuse? Every thing would depend upon the wisdom and the impartiality of the commissioners, and the manner in which securities were required. The greatest care ought then to be taken in the selection of these commissioners, who, according as they did their duty, well or ill, might employ the funds placed at their disposal beneficially for the country, or convert them into a source of corrupt influence and an engine for party purposes. Such a choice of them should be made as would not only be agreeable to both sides of the House, but would coincide with the wishes and deserve the confidence of the country—men above all suspicion and free from all influence. Such precautions against using the public purse for the promotion of ministerial or personal objects were the more necessary at the present time, when we were probably within four or five months of a general election, in which the influence of this measure might be used. When speaking of the relief to be administered to the country, he was reminded of one class of men, whose case, as much as any other, deserved consideration; and from whom, if no relief was prepared for them, no exaction should at present be made. He alluded to that distressed class of persons who were still in arrears for property-tax. If exchequer-bills were issued to enable them to put off the payment of their arrears for two or three years, or to remit the payment altogether, a great and unequivocal good would be done. Much of our suffering, in many instances, arose, he was convinced, from the oppressive operation and heavy arrears of that tax. This was the cause why the retail dealers sales were diminished. The persons themselves were in a most lamentable and hopeless situation: they had not paid their taxes, because they were unable to pay them; and he was persuaded that their arrears might be cancelled without any loss to the revenue, or any encouragement to others to withhold payment. He threw out this hint for the consideration of government; and suggested to the chancellor of the exchequer, that in the ways and means of the year, he should in-

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troduce some measure to relieve the great distress and misery which these people suffered. In stating the difficulties and the; doubts that occurred to his mind at the present moment, he did not wish to be understood as having given any decided opinion, or as having precluded himself from the most ample discussion, when the details of the plan were better understood, and its provisions came in a different shape under the consideration of the House.
Mr. Buttertvorthrecommended that a portion of these funds should be applied to the erection of parochial school houses.
The first resolution was put and carried. On the second resolution, for voting the sum of 2.50,000 l.to be applied to the use of the public works and fisheries of Ireland,
Sir F. Floodexpressed his surprise at the short measure of relief meted out for his native country, considering her merits and her sufferings. Ireland had a claim over every other part of the empire. What had her conduct been? She had been patient under suffering, while here they had been meeting in Spa-fields to subvert the laws of the land. Yet that patient meritorious Island, the right hand of England, was in a state of almost absolute Starvation. He had travelled over five counties of it lately, and found the poor had nothing to subsist upon but their half boiled potatoes and their prayers. Let the people of Ireland have justice done them. They had contributed more than their share to the victorious war that had terminated in a glorious peace; and they did not, like the inhabitants of England, desert their country, and emigrate abroad to spend their money. The number of rich emigrants, who gave to foreigners the bread of their own countrymen, was a serious evil. They were now leaving the country like shoals of herrings. People of all ranks, nobles and commoners, earls and lords, were removing to distant lands. They ought to be made responsible for the money they drew from home, and the people whom they impoverished. They professed to have the object of amusement for their emigration; but if they want amusement out of their own country, let them come among us. Instead of that they run to Dover, from Dover to Calais, from Calais to Boulogne, and from Boulogne to France. [a laugh.] He wished 20 per cent, were laid on the income of air absentees, He would allow none to
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be abroad for more than two or three months, unless they could produce the certificate of a physician that their health required a change of climate. The Irish members, at a great expense and with considerable difficulty in procuring their rents from their unfortunate tenants, came to this country to do their duty; and yet in the meritorious endeavours of the chancellor of the exchequer, their suffering constituents were cut off with short measure. All they wanted was capital, he trusted, therefore, the right hon. gentleman would reconsider the second resolution, and add a few thousands more for the use of the right arm of England.
The resolution was then agreed to.