Commons Sitting of 13 March 1815

PROCEEDINGS UPON COMPLAINT THAT THE APPROACHES TO THE HOUSE WERE OCCUPIED BY A MILITARY FORCE
THE orders of the day being read, for taking into further consideration the Minutes of the Proceedings upon the matter of the Complaint made upon Monday last, that the Approaches to the House were occupied by a Military Force; and for the attendance of the High Bailiff of Westminster, and Magistrates,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the object of the House in taking these

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minutes into their consideration, must be to secure on the part of the Police a vigorous discharge of their duty. He believed, since last Monday, every person was satistisfied with their conduct. Parliament had never held their sittings in greater security—had never been less in danger of interruption. With respect to what had taken place on the day he had named, he thought it unnecessary to say any thing now. It appeared that every precaution had previously been taken by the Secretary of State which common prudence could dictate. He regretted that it had been found necessary to call out the military; but the propriety of doing this under the circumstances of the case, he believed, would not be questioned, and he thought it would be seen that hardly any blame attached to the civil power, if, for once, it had not been able to preserve the peace, and afford full protection. If on this subject there was any difference of opinion, he trusted the House would think the conduct of the Police since Monday had atoned for their first errors. Conceiving it would be best not to revive the unfortunate events of Monday night, and that there would be no objection to pass over what had occurred, he should move, that the said orders be discharged.
Mr. Whitbreadwas sorry to be under the necessity of bringing back to the recollection of the House, the evidence which was taken on the night in question, from the nature and effect of which he conceived the motion of the right hon. gentleman was by no means such a motion as the House could agree to, with a due regard to its own character. The right hon. gentleman, however, had not contented himself with merely moving, that the order should be discharged, but had intimated that the magistrates were almost without blame; and, by a panegyric upon their subsequent conduct, seemed desirous of at once wiping out all recollection of their previous proceedings. Now, what was the real history of the transaction? With respect to the precautions taken, upon the part of the Secretary of State and that of the Speaker, nothing could have been more proper or creditable to their vigilance; but, unfortunately, those precautions were rendered nugatory by the conduct of the magistrates to whom the execution of the orders given was entrusted. Notice, it was seen, had been given to the High Bailiff of Westminster of
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the possibility of a tumult, and of the propriety of his being prepared with proper assistants to prevent as much as possible its pernicious effects. But what was his conduct? Why, he issued summonses in the usual way for eighty persons to attend, of whom about forty obeyed his summons. He had no account of those persons, however, and seemed to have adopted no method with regard to their organization, and not one of the witnesses who were examined seemed to have observed the existence of any outrage, at a moment when one member of the House had complained of being nearly rode over by a troop of horse. He thought the apathy which had been displayed on this occasion should form a subject for very rigorous inquiry; as he was convinced, if the constables, of whom it appeared not less than 150 were in attendance, had been properly mustered and judiciously directed, at an early hour in the afternoon, all necessity for the interference of the military would have been obviated; and if it was not probable, it was, at least, possible, that all the disgraceful scenes which had taken place would have been prevented. Under this impression he could not concur in the vote which had been proposed by the right hon. gentleman, of passing over conduct lightly, which he could not but view with great jealousy in persons to whom, the protection of the House was entrusted. He thought, with a view to the future, that it was essential something like the disapprobation of the House towards the conduct of the magistrates should be manifested.
Mr. Bathurstsaid, the House would recollect that it was understood, on the night alluded to, that information should be given to the magistrates of the feelings which the House entertained of their conduct. [Mr. Whitbread here remarked, that there was nothing on the Journals to this effect.] Mr. Bathurst, in continuation, observed, that Mr. Morris, the high bailiff, was in fact under the direction of other magistrates, at the head of whom was sir N. Conant, who at the time the outrages were taking place, was acting as the chief, from whom orders were received; but from the immense multitude which had assembled, he believed it was impossible to have avoided calling out the military. With respect to the assertion, that the calling out the military had produced the other outrages which had been committed, he believed this would not for a moment

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be credited, when it was known that before the military had arrived in Palace-yard, sir N. Conant had actually been called away to suppress riots of a complexion equally dangerous, which had broken out in other parts of the town. It was very true, that the magistrates had not placed themselves without the avenues of the House, because such situations were attended with imminent danger—one or two of the constables having been absolutely incapacitated from the exercise of their duties by blows received from brickbats. As far, however, as they could, consistently with the strength of the force under their orders, they had taken every means to resist the gross attacks which were made. Upon the whole, he saw nothing which called for punishment upon those individuals, or indeed merited the further cognizance of the House.
Mr. Wynnwas of opinion that it was impossible to pass over the conduct of the magistrates without notice. He would recall to the recollection of the House, that the noble lord (Castlereagh) had objected to any admonition being given to those persons on Monday night, because be considered that any discussion upon the subject would have kept them from those duties which at that time required their presence. It was then understood that their conduct was liable to inquiry on a future occasion, and, in obedience to that feeling, he conceived an inquiry should now take place. He thought with his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread), that the conduct of the High Bailiff had been particularly reprehensible, because he was the person, of all others, to whom he believed the House ought to look for protection, and yet he, of all others, seemed to be most ignorant of what was passing. With respect to the hazard in which it was stated by the right hon. gentleman, who spoke last, the constables would have been placed by remaining without the doors of the House, he considered it of less importance that they should run risks, than that the members of the House should be prevented from performing their parliamentary duties. It was, in fact, a necessary attendant upon the office of constable, that he should expose his person to danger; and if such an excuse were to be received as a ground for neglect of duty, the necessary consequence would be, that on all occasions the military must be resorted to. Upon the whole, he could not help being of opinion, that there had been great re-
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missness on the part of the magistrates and civil power; and with this feeling he thought their conduct should not be passed over without an expression of the feeling of the House upon the subject.
Mr. F. Douglasthought it of importance, that the conduct of the civil officers should be minutely inquired into, not so much with a view to punish or to censure the past, as to guard against a recurrence of the evil complained of. However he might regret some of the events which had taken place, he should always remember with pleasure the firmness and dignity which that House had displayed, and exult in the reflexion, that not one of its members had mistaken the clamour of a mob for the voice of the people.
Mr. Lockhartwas willing that the proceedings which had taken place should be consigned to oblivion, as far as the punishment of the magistrates was Concerned; but he wished their recollection to survive, in order that such measures of precaution might be taken as should make it unnecessary to call out the military on any similar occasion. He wished to see the constables young, healthy, and vigorous, instead of decayed and decrepid men, like those which he had seen on the late occasion, who appeared to be incapable of acting with effect, although he found they had foolish vanity enough to be jealous of each other. He understood such a feeling had caused a difference between the officers from Bow-street and those of other offices. He was of opinion that a civil force, better headed, and better organized, ought to be at hand on such occasions. He wished the old law, of calling out the house keepers of each parish when the public peace was endangered, were again resorted to, places of rendezvous named, and other arrangements made for their being speedily assembled, and effectually engaged to quell the disturbance. If such measures were not adopted, the capital might one day fall into the hands of a mob, who might not be kept down till they had done it great, and almost irreparable injury. He took occasion to censure the conduct of certain persons forming the jury on a coroner's inquest, who had promulgated authoritatively what they took upon themselves to lay down as the law, though he would not acknowledge it to be so. He controverted the opinions published by the jury, who lately sat on the body of the officer unfortunately killed in Burlington-

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street, refuted the doctrine which they had attempted to inculcate, and, supporting himself on the authority of lord Mansfield, contended that the right of the parties entrusted with the care of any place assailed by a mob, to use the weapons with which they were armed, to the destruction of the assailants, was only to be determined by the necessity of the case.
Mr. Addingtonobserved, that the charges brought against the magistrates seemed to be, that they had not been in their proper stations at the time of the riot, and that they had not made a judicious disposition of the civil force. Now, the first charge could only amount to an error in judgment; and he admitted that if they had been on the outside of the building, they would have been better able to direct the constables. As to the second charge, he thought it too much to expect, that on the first occasion, they should have been able to make the most judicious disposition of the civil power, which it was possible to make. The chief magistrate of Bow-street had been desired to be present at the Secretary of State's office during the evening in question. From a laudable degree of zeal he came down to the House in the beginning of the evening, and there continued till between eight and nine o'clock, being then on the outside of the building, when he was called suddenly away, his presence being necessary in another quarter of the town. The magistrates within were not aware that he was called off, and it was from this, he believed, that the circumstances had taken place which had given rise to the imputation of remissness. The conduct of the magistrates had been marked, since that period, with a great degree of zeal and assiduity, and he hoped the House would not think it proper to visit them with a punishment so heavy as its censure.
Mr. Whitbreadexplained, that it was not his intention to lump all the magistrates, who had been examined, in the charge which he thought should be made against some of them. It was well for the right hon. gentleman who defended them to confound them; but he did not mean to attack them altogether.
Mr. Hammersleythought the police laws defective, there being no provision for an extraordinary number of constables in case of riots. He hoped that the persons to whom this department of the government was entrusted, would pay attention to the subject.
Mr. Butterworthsaid, that he had experienced some difficulty in reaching his carriage, about eight o'clock of the evening in question; but on that occasion, as well as on his return to the House about an hour afterwards, the constables exerted themselves to the utmost to clear the way.
Sir C. Monckobserved, that the Speaker of the House was not supposed to know any thing about the preservation of the peace; having given orders for their attendance, it was the duty of the magistrates to take all proper measures. He thought it most extraordinary that a verdict of murder had been returned against the soldiers, while it did not appear that any rioters were in custody, or that any attempt at arson or murder had appeared on the part of the populace.
Mr. Addingtonstated there were at least thirty rioters in custody.
Mr. Wrottesleycould not agree that the magistrates were altogether exempt from blame. He remarked on the evidence of the high bailiff, who had stated that he had about 50 out of his 80 constables about the House; that that force was insufficient to repress the mob; but that he did not take any measures to procure additional force, relying on Messrs. Baker and Birnie, whom he knew were in attendance. He did not, however, communicate with them. His reliance on Mr. Baker was much to his credit, as there was a marked difference between the conduct of that gentleman and that of the other persons who had been examined at the bar. He thought the high bailiff blameable in not communicating with the police magistrates. Some measures, he thought, should be taken to let the magistrates know that it was necessary for them to take proper methods to stifle tumults in their commencement; for he was confident that with the help of a few constables at the beginning of the evening the riot might have been altogether suppressed, by taking such persons into custody as refused to disperse. He observed, that it was extraordinary that none of the persons had been apprehended, who had defiled the walls about the metropolis with the most inflammatory inscriptions. He thought this might have been done by the ordinary exertion of the Police.
Mr. Alderman Atkinsstated, that as far as he had witnessed the conduct of the magistrates on the night in question, they had been very active. The high bailiff, he thought, had exerted himself to the ut-

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most of his power. The civil power was by no means adequate. Having filled the office of sheriff, on the occasion of former riots, he had witnessed the conduct of Messrs. Baker and Birnie, who had read the Riot Act to their own great danger, with laudable zeal and courage. In those riots he found, that of the constables for Westminster, nevermore than 10 attended.
The motion for the discharge of the orders was then put and carried.

SOUTH SEA COMPANY.
On the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the Act 9 Anne, c. 21, for for making good deficiencies, and satisfying the public debts; and for erecting a corporation to carry on a trade to the South Seas, and for the encouragement of the fishery; and for liberty to trade in unwrought iron with the subjects of Spain; and to repeal the Acts for registering seamen,
The Chancellor of the Exchequertook a view of the establishment of the South Sea Company, and observed that this corporation possessed the exclusive privilege of trading to America, from the river Oroo-noko, round Cape Horn to the north-west coast of that continent. This exclusive privilege had for many years been of no advantage to that Company; but South America having become at last open to us, it might become a great obstacle to our commerce. He therefore had to state the terms on which the Company were willing to sell it to the country. That Company had lent all its capital to the Government, for which they received 3l. per cent.; and they also obtained a further dividend of ½ per cent. on their capital, by acting as agents for Government in the payment of the dividends of such part of the public debt as existed in 1721. By the Act of 1813, which would cancel all the national debt which existed before the establishment of the sinking fund, they would lose that ½ per cent. They therefore consented to abandon their exclusive privilege of trade, on condition that the Government would guarantee this ½ per cent, or about 18,000 l. a year to them. For this income it was his intention to propose the creation of a fund, by a duty on tonnage of ships trading to South America, and on the export of goods thither, to the amount of 2l. per cent. The fund necessary would be 400,000 l.; when that sum was accumulated, the duty would
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be repealed. A duty of 4l. per cent. on goods shipped to South America would expire on the 16th of March, so that a renewal of only half that duty would be necessary. He concluded by moving the following Resolutions: 1. "That the exclusive right of trade granted to the South Sea Company by an Act made in the 9th year of the reign of queen Anne, do cease and determine. 2. That, in consideration of the surrender of such exclusive right, a guarantee fund be created in any of the public funds or annuities, bearing an interest of 3l. per centum per annum, which shall accumulate until it amounts to the sum of 610,464 l. 3s. capital stock, bearing an interest at 3l. per centum per annum, and such capital stock shall then he transferred to the said Company. 3. That until the said sum of 610,464 l. 3s capital stock shall be so accumulated and transferred as aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the lords commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury to direct the issue, out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, from time to time, of such sums of money as may be necessary to enable the said Company to pay a dividend of ½ per centum per annum on their trading stock, after applying to that purpose all the funds of the said Company which now are or may remain applicable thereto. 4. That a duty of 1s. 6d. shall be granted, for a time to be limited, for and upon every ton burthen of every ship or vessel entering outwards or inwards in any port of the United Kingdom to or from any port or place within the limits of the sole and exclusive trade granted to the said Company by the said Act. 5. That a custom duty of 2l. be charged upon every 100 l. of the value of all goods, wares, or merchandize, the growth, produce, or manufacture of the United Kingdom, exported to any of the said ports or places, for a time to be limited." The first resolution being put,
Mr. Bennetthought the proposition just and equitable; but he wished to make some observations on the state of the country which was the subject of the law on which they were deliberating, viz. South America. All that continent was now in arms, and the spectacle of a great nation struggling for liberty had always been regarded with peculiar interest by this country. He wished to know whether any steps had been taken by this country to mediate between the mother country and the colonies? The consequence of the dreadful-

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struggle had been, that in the kingdom of Mexico, no less than one million of human beings had been destroyed in 1813 and 1814. From the Oroonoko to Cumana the country was a perfect waste. To give an idea of the horrible nature of the war, he should state, that when the city of Valencia surrendered to the royalists, the capitulation was sworn to on the altar, and high mass was performed in presence of the parties; when the old Spaniards entered the town, within twelve hours they gave it up to pillage, and executed the unhappy patriots who remained in it. Had any offer of mediation been made on the part of this country? He knew that offers had been made to, and rejected by the Cortes; but there was a difference between a Cortes under the influence of the monopolists of Cadiz, and Ferdinand the 7th. From the cruelty and ferocity of Ferdinand, perhaps they had as little to expect, but some attempts at least should be made. A man had been sent as viceroy to the new world, who, after having betrayed an army to the French in his own country, had gone to America, where, without taking active steps to suppress the rebellion, he issued such orders as deluged that continent in blood. An expedition had since been sent out to South America, commanded, to his disgrace, by a British officer. That expedition he prayed to God might perish on the shores of the New World! This country had to choose between eighteen million of free people, and nine million of slaves—between a people who had opened their ports to us, and a despotic Court who had persecuted our merchants, insulted our trade, and oppressed our subjects. It had been said, that Great Britain had remained neutral in the contest. This, he believed, was not true. During the war in the Peninsula, under the very eye of sir Henry Wellesley, an expedition had been sent to the New World, fitted out by British money, the troops appointed with British arms and clothing. The conduct of the governors of Curacoa was of the same description. They received the fugitives of the royalist party, provided them with arms and ammunition, to renew their attempts. But when the patriots were driven out in their turn, they excluded them from the islands, and forced them to seek and find protection from Petion, a black—the excellent man who governed a part of St. Domingo. The patriots of America had to complain of us for a breach of en-
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gagement towards them; the Cortes and people of Spain had also to complain of us, for having suffered their constitution to be destroyed, and themselves to be delivered over to an usurper—for such was Ferdinand the 7th. The hon. member expressed a wish to know by what minister the Regent had been advised to send the Order of the Garter to Ferdinand, and to accept the Order of the Golden Fleece? and he also desired to learn, whether the British Government had entered into any treaty or engagement whatever, guaranteeing the South American colonies to Spain?
The Chancellor of the Exchequertrusted the committee would see the propriety of his declining on this occasion to enter into details of such delicacy as were referred to by the hon. member, and the more so as the hon. member's observations were not properly relevant to the subject before the committee. He had, however, no difficulty in stating, that upon the offer of mediation which had been made on our part between Spain and its colonies, his Majesty's ministers were always ready to act. In our endeavours, indeed, to procure independence and liberty for Old Spain, we had ever been equally anxious to obtain the liberty of its colonies. Upon the commercial advantage likely to accrue to this country from the establishment of a complete freedom of trade in South America, he should at present abstain from delivering any opinion; but, however interesting or important that freedom might be, neutrality, in the present contest between South America and the mother country, was the duty and the resolution of Great Britain; which never could attempt to seek any object, however beneficial, from a connexion with the former, that should be tainted with, any thing like treachery towards the latter.
Mr. Whitbreadthought, that as the subject before the committee referred to the opening of a free trade with South America, the opportunity had been very properly chosen by his hon. friend to bring forward the questions to which he had adverted. The proposition being to open the South American ports his hon. friend very naturally submitted some inquiries with regard to that country. His hon. friend had therefore asked, whether, in the contest in which (he would not say the colonies, but) New Spain was engaged with Old Spain, the government of the

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country had observed neutrally? That New Spain had experienced the most atrocious treatment, as well from the late as from the present government of Spain, was an undeniable fact; and it was desirable for the credit a ltd the interest of this country, to know whether the right hon. gentleman was able to deny that any money, arms, or equipment, had been furnished by our Government, for the purpose of suppressing the patriots of New Spain, in their laudable rebellion against the tyranny of the mother country. It was also desirable to know whether, as his hon. friend's question imported, any of our colonial governors had refused that hospitality to the patriots which had been grained to their oppressors; for such partiality would be obviously inconsistent with those principles of neutrality which the right hon. gentleman professed. If, indeed, the right hon. gentleman were not able to deny such partiality and that it had been actually evinced, the patriots of New Spain would have the best founded reason to complain of our conduct, nay, that our offer of impartial mediation was by no means sincere. If, then, under such circumstances, the people of New Spain should succeed in their gallant efforts to shake off the yoke of their persecutors, and to raise their country to that independent station to which it was entitled, the best interests of this country were but too likely to suffer, for it was the best interest of Great Britain to cultivate an amicable connexion with New Spain. On these grounds, therefore, he lamented that the right hon. gentleman had declined to afford any explanation respecting the points referred to by his hon. friend. It was, he presumed, a mere omission on the part of the right hon. gentleman, not to have noticed his hon. friend's allusion to the grant of the Order of the Garter to Ferdinand, and the acceptance of that of the Golden Fleece by the Prince Regent; for such marks of esteem towards such a person as Ferdinand did certainly not seem very compatible with the feelings likely to belong to any prince reigning over a free people. The minister who had advised such proceedings ought to be made known; and he hoped this, with the other questions so properly submitted by his hon. friend, respecting our conduct towards the usurper, Ferdinand, would be satisfactorily answered by the right hon. gentleman.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated
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that no money or assistance whatever had been supplied by this country to enable the Spanish government to subdue New Spain. As to the Order of the Garter and the Golden Fleece, he could not think that such interchange of ceremonies formed an object worthy to call for the attention of that House. With respect to the recognition of Ferdinand, that prince having been recognised as the sovereign of Spain, by the government with which we had originally treated for the deliverance of that country, and by the Cortes also, he should have thought it very extraordinary indeed, if this country had declined to acknowledge his authority.
Mr. Ponsonbyconsidered the subject of South America as one of the greatest importance and delicacy. He was far from recommending one step on either side inconsistent with the good faith of Government, or in violation of our neutrality. At the same time he was free to say, that there was no foreign country whatever in the fate of which Great Britain was so much interested as with South America. For he had no doubt that the establishment of the independence of that country, and the detaching of it from Old Spain, was to us an object of the highest importance; but he was equally positive that that object, however desirable, should not be pursued by any means whatever incompatible with our public faith. It was the duty of our Government to attend strictly to its engagements, but at the same time he should hold it imperiously bound in no degree to assist the projects Of Old Spain against the liberties of South America.
Mr. Wynnconcurred with his right hon. friend as to the propriety of observing a strict neutrality in the present contest between Old Spain and South America, but he could not conceive it compatible with that neutrality to refuse that hospitality to the people of South America; which ws afforded to their opponents. This proceeding did certainly not manifest good faith, and he was surprised at the silence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the subject. But he was equally surprised at the undue levity with which the right hon. gentleman had spoken of the grant of the Order of the Garter to Ferdinand. How was it possible that the right hon. gentleman could so undervalue an honour which had been so highly estimated among the first, monarchs in Europe? This distinction had,

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indeed, been often anxiously looked for, and always gratefully received by the most eminent princes. It was notorious that the favour had been refused to the present, and also to the last king of Sweden. He believed, indeed, that the present king of Spain was the first sovereign of that country who had been favoured with this honour since Philip 2. On these grounds he was astonished at the levity with which the right hon. gentleman had thought proper to express himself with regard to what he had denominated the 'ceremony.'
Mr. Alderman Atkinsinquired, whether it was intended to abolish the South Sea Company altogether?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied in the negative; but the intention was to take the monopoly out of its hands.
Mr. Whitbreadasked, whether any farther steps had been taken for the liberation from Ceuta of M. Correa, and the gentlemen surrendered by general Campbell?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that no opportunity would be lost to produce the effect alluded to.
Here a conversation arose upon the proposition of a tax of 2 per cent. upon all goods exported from Great Britain or Ireland, to South America, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Finlay, and Mr. Alderman Atkins took part. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that the produce of this tax was to be applied in aid of a fund to indemnify the South Sea Company, and that it was to cease when that indemnity was discharged. The two latter objected to it as inconsistent with our commercial policy, by imposing a tax upon our exported manufactures. Mr. Finlay deprecated, and sir J. Newport vindicated the policy of the tax upon foreign linens, with a view to benefit the linen of Ireland and England. The several Resolutions were then agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS— NEW TAXES.
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Mr. Tierneyrepeated and enforced his objections to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman, to grant the ways and means before the supply was voted, conceiving such a course inconsistent with the established practice of Parliament The only supply yet voted was 24 mil-
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lions, winch the proposed amount of ways and means would considerably exceed. He would be glad to hear upon what ground the right hon. gentleman could justify such a course of proceeding. Under the Act brought forward by the right hon. gentleman before Christmas, which Act differed materially from any that preceded it, he observed, that the Treasury were invested with the power of issuing Exchequer-bills without limit. Indeed, according to this Act, the Treasury might issue 50 millions in Exchequer-bills in addition o the 8 millions which it was authorized o borrow from the Bank. Would the House, then, he would ask, go on in voting he ways and means proposed, without knowing the amount of Exchequer-bills issued in consequence of this extraordinary Act?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he perfectly agreed with the right hon. gentleman in the general parliamentary principle which he had laid down, that the ways and means should not exceed the supplies voted; and he hoped he should be able to satisfy that right hon. gentleman and the House, that on the present occasion he had not infringed upon that principle. The right hon. gentleman would himself be convinced, when he reminded him that he had omitted two or three considerable sums which had been voted by Parliament. Among these sums was one of twelve millions and a half, for the repayment of Exchequer-bills, and another of fifteen millions. It should be recollected that they had voted supplies to the amount of fifty-one millions, and the ways and means only for thirty-one millions, leaving a deficiency of twenty millions to be made good. With regard to the act empowering the Treasury to issue Exchequer-bills, he did not consider that it gave any authority to anticipate the aids which had not yet been granted by Parliament. There certainly had been an issue of Exchequer-bills, but they were not issued upon taxes which Parliament had not yet granted, but upon the aid of fifteen millions which had been voted last year.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that by the plan which, the right hon. gentleman adopted, he might issue Exchequer-bills to an unlimited extent. There was the great evil, and that we were now, though in a state of peace, pursuing the same plan as during the war. He certainly thought that the whole was irregular.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerread the words of the Act, and repeated, that he did not consider the Treasury empowered by it to issue Exchequer-bills to an unlimited extent, because Parliament might afterwards grant supplies to cover them. The accounts of those Exchequer-bills which had been issued would be forthcoming when any member should choose to move for them.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, he objected to receiving the report, because the minister of finance had come down to that House, and asked for enormous supplies without condescending to state for what purposes they were required. Such a practice was perfectly new to that House. The right hon. gentleman had told them they were to have a peace establishment of nineteen millions; but he had not imparted a single tittle of information as to the items and heads of that expenditure. If the House of Commons sanctioned such a proceeding, they would at once surrender their control over the public purse and the ministers of the Crown. On that ground, therefore, he should certainly take the sense of the House upon receiving the report.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that it would be most satisfactory to every member of that House, and to no one more so than to himself, if, when they entered into the discussion of what should be the peace establishment of the country, any means could be devised for reducing it below what had been proposed. That question, however, was not now before them; and the grounds upon which the House was then called upon to agree to the report, was that the grants had already been voted by Parliament. Nor would they be at all pledged, by agreeing to the report, as to their future proceedings with respect to the proposed plan of finance. They merely provided for sums which had been already voted. When the time came for considering the various estimates for the service of the present year, he should call upon the House for its most patient and deliberate attention to the subject, and should thank any honourable gentleman who could lighten his heavy labours by shewing how the peace establishment might be made less.
Mr. Tierneydenied that the five millions of new taxes were to be considered as a part of the ordinary aids of the year. they voted for receiving the report, surely they would be recognizing the plan of the right hon. gentleman.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontended, that the inference of the right hon. gentleman was not a correct one. By agreeing to the report, they would only agree to provide a certain sum by way of taxes; but they would not therefore agree to the taxes themselves. As to the amount of that sum, every one would feel that what was proposed to be raised by those taxes could not be regarded as unnecessary, even if the expenses of the country were cut down to what they were before the French Revolution. He really thought, indeed, that he was much more liable to objection for not bringing forward taxes to a greater extent, than for proposing what he had.
Mr. Tierneyreplied, that the great object was to have the whole matter before them at once. If, for example, they knew how much would be wanted for the present year, they would then be able to say what portion should be raised by taxes, and what by loan. For himself, he really had no conception what would be the extent of supply required for the present year; and the whole subject demanded more explanation than the right ton. gentleman was yet in a condition to give them. All be wanted was, that they might not be called upon to vote in the dark; and he wished the right hon. gentleman would take the five millions, intended to be raised by the new taxes, in some other way for the present, and leave the other to future discussion, when he would be able to tell how much he required.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, he would repeat the grounds of his objection. The right hon. gentleman having stated a certain motion, and told the House that 19 millions were necessary for a peace establishment, then desired them to adopt his plan, without entering into particulars, and shewing how the money was to be applied. This mode of voting supplies at different times was what he most particularly objected to; and he protested against it as an innovation upon former practice, and altogether unconstitutional.
Sir Robert Heronobserved, that the plan, of the right hon. gentleman was in direct opposition to the interests of the nation. For what purpose were we to threaten the countries around us with a fear of war? He must protest against voting supplies to such an amount, without insisting on one resource,—he meant that of the most strict economy, which ought to pervade every

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department of the government. Ministers, if they consulted the tranquillity and happiness of the country, should advise the illustrious Personage who exercised the royal functions, to limit his expenditure; and should inform him how far more glorious his days would be, were he to reform his expenses to the wants of his subjects, instead of increasing the enormous and unnecessary charges of an extravagant court—[Hear, hear!]—It was not long since, that the nation had admired two illustrious Sovereigns who visited our country; and the cause of their having received so much approbation was, that they had endured the greatest privations in times of public distress. This was a conduct worthy of imitation, and he would take the liberty of recalling to the recollection of the House the words which William 3, one of the best of kings, had addressed to his Parliament. "It always gives me," said that great monarch, "the deepest concern to impose new burthens on my people; but I have never called for any which related to my personal expenses."
Mr. Bennetobserved, that ministers had not told the House a syllable as to the his situation of the country. It was not real intention at that time to make any comment on the taxes; but when they came before the House, it would be his duty to oppose them, for he objected to them all. He considered it proper to abolish situations where there was pay without services; and, indeed, to put Government itself upon short allowance.
Mr. J. P. Grantobjected to going into the committee, until the Chancellor of the Exchequer had laid before the House a distinct and comprehensive statement of the whole of our financial relations. He was at a loss to conjecture of what votes the supply which the right hon. gentleman asserted had been agreed to by the House, was made up; and expressed himself particularly unable to understand how the two sums of 15 millions and 12 millions and a half, to make good the issue of Exchequer-bills on the aids of the year 1814, were to be considered.
Lord Miltondeclared himself to be in a similar difficulty, arising either from his own misapprehension of the subject, or from the mystery in which it appeared to be purposely involved. If he was right in his supposition, they were, as far as the five millions were concerned, about to vote en establishment for four years to come.
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He decidedly objected to voting the ways and means, before the House was circumstantially apprized of the purposes to which those ways and means were to be applied.
Mr. Bankesdeclared, that if he thought the proposed voles were to cover any insidious machinations—that under the pretence of one object, the House was called upon to vote means which were to be applied to another, he would not only oppose the motion himself, but would use all the little influence which he possessed to induce the House to reject it. But this could by no possibility be the case. The sums now demanded, and much more, must be voted, to make good the supplies to which Parliament had already agreed. As to the explanation demanded of his right hon. friend, with respect to the peace establishment, it was evident that his right hon. friend only waited until he might be able to speak decidedly on the subject. Who could yet tell what might be our ultimate relations with America? Who could tell to what expense for the next twelvemonth this country might be put by the extraordinary occurrence of which we had been informed only within the last two or three days? He could assure the noble lord who had just spoken, that as far as his humble endeavours could go, they should be directed—not to cut down the peace establishment below what was necessary, but to bring it down as low as was consistent with the safety of the country; and above all, to take care that what remained of expense should be employed not in external show, but in real and solid strength. The measures proposed by his right hon. friend appeared to him to be much preferable to raising a larger loan, or to any encroachment on the Sinking. Fund. Certainly, unpopular as was the sentiment, he did conceive that a continuation of the property-tax, under some modification, would have been a still wiser plan; and he sincerely believed, that when the good sense of the country returned upon this subject, his opinion would become pretty general. Did he therefore reproach ministers for having abandoned it? By no means. The strong hostility exhibited towards the tax at the present moment, and the consideration, that its conservation would have been a kind of breach of parliamentary faith, were sufficient grounds for inducing his right hon. friend to relinquish a tax, the good qualities of which his comprehensive mind must have suffi-

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ciently appreciated. With respect to the future coarse of our financial regulations, one great principle was, that we ought as much as possible to make our income and our expenditure commensurate; and he really thought, although it was alarming to find the conjectural estimate of our peace establishment rated so high as 19 millions, great savings might be made out of that sum. On the present vtoe, however, all jealousy seemed to him to be superfluous. It would not tie the House down to any new system of taxation, or to any irrevocable amount of the peace establishment. Before he sat down he must, however, warn his right hon. friend and the House from being so misled as to expect that the proposed taxes would be permanently as productive as they might be in the first instance. With respect to those of excise, such as the tax on wine, they would according to repeated experience occasion frauds on the revenue, and a diminished consumption; and as to the assessed taxes, it would, after a twelvemonth, be in the power of any master of a family to reduce them in his own case, and the general result would unquestionably be a considerable diminution of their produce. This system of taxation, therefore, could not be considered, as he considered the property-tax, a sound, solid, and permanent system of taxation.
Mr. Douglasobjected to the confusion arising from the transfer of the ways and means of one year to the supply of another. He recommended to the right hon. gentleman to postpone any further proceeding on this subject until after Wednesday, as the explanations, which would then be given by a noble lord, would probably affect it materially. Certainly, if there was a time in which this country had a right to expect that she should be secured from being again engaged in continental warfare, it was the present; and we had an undoubted right to find that our representative at the Congress had so secured her. He had old prejudices enough left to entertain a horror at the thought of England's degenerating wholly into a military country. Every approach to such a state shook the foundations of our national character. He earnestly wished that the recollections of the war might be obliterated with the war itself, and that from a nation of soldiers we might become a nation of citizens, trusting to our energy and patriotism for defence against an enemy, should any
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sudden occasion demand it. To principles almost obsolete he was anxious that we should return. The dictatorship, with which the Administration had for so many years been properly invested, ought to cease with the necessity by which it was required. Until he heard these doctrines acquiesced in, he must withhold his assent to all motions like the present.
Mr. Whitbreadexpressed his admiration of the sentiments of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken. The original and wholesome practice of the constitution was, that the ministers of the Crown should first state to Parliament the whole of the supplies which were requisite, and then obtain the ways and means of providing for those supplies. Of late years, however, the budget had been brought forward by piecemeal (a system which originated with Mr. Perceval), so that the House never could have the whole system under review at one time. He admitted that circumstances might embarrass the right hon. gentleman as to his exact estimate of the peace establishment; but an easy remedy was, to delay further proceedings at present—at least to postpone them until the expected explanations of the noble lord, by throwing a light on the determinations of Congress, should give the House an opportunity of judging of the probable results of its deliberations. He confessed he was not surprised at the eulogium which he had heard from the right hon. gentleman, and from an hon. gentleman on the floor (Mr. Bankes), on the property tax. Like all deceased personages, its vices had vanished from memory, and only its virtues remained. People were generally favourable to the dead; but it should be remembered that that tax was objectionable—not because it was a tax on property—but because it was impossible to divest its mode of collection from partiality and oppression intolerable in a free constitution. It should also be remembered that the property tax was not absolutely dead—it only slept. The right hon. gentleman had wedded it to war. It would be up again if we were again involved in hostilities. And here he could not refrain from noticing the hint which had fallen from a noble lord and from the hon. gentleman on the floor. It was evident that in estimating the peace establishment at nineteen millions, a troubled state of things was contemplated, and perhaps the recurrence of bloody wars arising out of the proceedings of the Congress. But

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the singular event of which we had very recently heard, might lead to a civil war in France. In such a case, he protested against the interference of this country in any way. I take this early opportunity, concluded Mr. Whitbread, to declare, as a hint has been given on the subject, that I enter my solemn protest against any interference on the part of this country in the internal affairs of France.
Mr. Philipswas proceeding to make some observations on the partial and oppressive nature of the proposed taxes, when
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that with respect to one of those taxes, to which the objections of the hon. gentlemen were probably the most strong (the tax on windows), he intended to reserve it for further consideration, and for a revision of the schedule.
Mr. Philipsthen adverted to the proposed duty on cotton, and remarked on the inconsistency of the right hon. gentleman, who no longer ago than last session had declared, that in the event of peace it would be impossible for our manufacturers to go on without a drawback, and who now imposed a duty of 5d. a pound on cotton wool imported in foreign vessels, and one penny a pound on cotton wool imported in British vessels! From any advantage proposed by this inequality, a countervailing duty on the part of the Americans would no doubt deprive us. To France the measure would be highly beneficial. In all the arrangements on this subject the interest of France seemed to be consulted, rather than those of this country. The right hon. gentleman's predictions on this subject with respect to France, had been completely falsified. No duty had been imposed in that country on the importation of cotton; and the greatest protection was there afforded to the cotton manufacture, at the very moment that the right hon. gentleman was devising every possible means to bring ours to ruin. The passing of the Corn Bill in that House had already occasioned a serious alarm in the manufacturing districts of the country. Was it desirable at such a moment to propose measures the tendency of which was to increase dissatisfaction? The hon. gentleman here read extracts from a letter which he had received from a very intelligent individual, resident in the manufacturing districts, in which it was declared that the measures about to be pursued would occa-
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sion irretrievable ruin to our manufactures, and must compel the emigration of our manufacturers. He knew the right hon. gentleman would contend that it was in the nature of taxation to be thrown on the consumer. But that remark would be inapplicable in the present instance. With respect to the foreign trade in particular, it was impossible.
Sir John Newportsaid, that his objection to the Speaker's leaving the chair was, that it went to perpetuate a system of voting the supplies of the year by piecemeal, and not giving sufficient information to the House, contrary to the old and constitutional practice. The taxes might be good or bad relatively; and that was the reason why they ought to be informed of the situation of the country. The whole demand, and every article of it, should be known before the supplies were voted. In time of war it might be different; but in peace, they should return to that wholesome principle.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that one of the resolutions was to continue all the war duties of excise, "with the exception of that on cotton imported in British shipping." The whole extent of his offending, therefore, was, that he did not propose to take off the duty on cotton imported in foreign shipping; the difference of expense on which to the manufacturer would not be above a halfpenny a pound.
Mr. Philipsrepeated the statement of its being a duty of 5d. a pound.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that that was not the tax then under consideration.
Mr. Finlaydeclared, that he considered the right hon. gentleman as the most formidable antagonist that the manufacturing interest of the country had ever met with. The proposed system was so ruinous, that he would give it the most determined opposition in every instance. By it the property tax would not merely be continued on the manufacturer—it would be more than doubled. A manufacturer would now have to pay near 3,000 l. a year, who had probably never been liable to a property tax of more than 1,000 l. As to the difference between the duty on cotton imported in British shipping and cotton imported in foreign shipping, a countervailing duty on the part of the American government would soon equalize it.
Mr. W. Fitzgeraldsaid, that the only

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duty on cotton in Ireland was a permanent duty.
Mr. Elliotsaid, that in opposing the motion, he gave a vote which he was obliged to give, from the utter want of information to satisfy the House of the necessity of the taxes they were about to vote.
The House then divided: For the motion, 95; Against it, 24; Majority 71.
The House then resolved itself into the committee.