Commons Sitting of 9 March 1815

SCOTCH TRIAL BY JURY BILL.
On moving the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. William Dundasobserved, that a measure more important in its object and beneficial in its consequences, as relating to the administration of justice in Scotland, had never been introduced to the attention of that House. He was confident that nothing more was necessary to insure its support, than to state the purport of the present Bill. The blessings resulting to England by that invaluable mode of trial by jury, were well and accurately understood; every writer on the English constitution bad made it the constant theme of panegyric. All that Scotland now asked was to share that advantage, and he was therefore well assured, that to the general principle no opposition would be made in that House.
Mr. Abercrombiecould not suffer so important a measure to pass, without expressing his complete satisfaction, and his conviction of its beneficial consequences. If it had not excited much attention in that House, it was only because no individual doubted the propriety of the principle of a trial by jury; and he felt as-

85]
sured, that the silence with which it had passed would convey to Scotland the impression of every member within those walls, as to that most beneficial mode of administering justice.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday next. On the motion of Mr. Dundas, it was resolved that the House should, on Monday next, consider of the salaries of the judges and officers to be appointed under the Bill.
Mr. Hornerrose to express his great satisfaction at the introduction of the Bill. There was, however, a very important feature in it, which deserved mature consideration; he meant the discretion given to the court to order the trial. That was a privilege which ought to be viewed with the utmost jealousy; but as the Bill was merely experimental, and was not intended to be a permanent measure, he should not oppose it on that account. Other points might be discussed in the committee.
Mr. Dundaswas happy to find, that he should have the assistance of the hon. and learned gentleman.
Mr. Finlayentirely acquiesced in the principle of the Bill.

BANK RESTRICTION BILL.
After the third reading of this Bill,
Mr. Horner Mr. Horner moved as an amendment, to leave out certain words, and to insert in their place a clause somewhat to this effect: "That whereas it was highly desirable that the Bank should, as soon as possible, resume its payments in cash, immediately after the passing of the present Act, measures should be taken by the Bank to enable them to resume such payments." His object in proposing this amendment was, that the Bank should, in the fifteen months longer allowed them, lose no lime in preparing to resume cash-payments, and not consider this as a new lease of exemption from paying in specie.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no objection to the introduction of the first part of the amendment, which expressed the desire of a resumption of cash-payments, as he himself felt a sincere wish for that event; but he would certainly object to the latter part, which required the adoption of immediate measures for that purpose.
Mr. Roseobjected to the amendment, as it would tend to mislead the country: it implied, that the Bank, if urged, might
[86
take preparatory steps for resuming its payments in cash. That, however, could not be effected till the price of gold were reduced to the Mint price. When that period arrived, the Bank would adopt measures for returning to payments in specie; but while the price of gold was above the Mint price, there were persons who would always contrive to melt the coin. To the words in the early part of the amendment, he had no objection; since he had always expressed his individual anxiety to return to payments in cash, and he was persuaded that it would be the anxious wish of the Bank to pay their notes as soon as possible.
Mr. Manningsaid, he had always stated his individual anxiety to resume cash-payments, and he knew that the gentlemen with whom he acted, wished to return to that state of things as soon as it could possibly be done without producing results highly inconvenient to the country. He wished to recall to the recollection of the hon. mover of the amendment, the concluding words of the Report of the Bullion Committee, that in the event of peace, two years would be the shortest period before the restriction could be taken off. It was well known that we were not yet in any thing like a state of peace: we had yet a large foreign expenditure; while this foreign expenditure was going on, and till the state of exchanges was fixed, it would be highly dangerous to return to cash-payments. One of the first effects of such directions to the Bank would be to induce them to restrict their issues; and the effect of this would be felt throughout the whole country.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonwished to know from the Chancel or of the Exchequer, upon what he rested his hope that we should ever be able to return to cash-payments? It seemed to him that he had no other ground for this, than the vague wish that the evil might cure itself. The governor of the Bank (Mr. Mellish) had been present at several discussions, but he seemed to take no interest in, nor to pay any attention to what was going on. The Bank must first reduce their paper before they could resume their cash-payments; and this was contrary to their immediate interest, for in proportion as they issued paper, in such proportion were their profits.
Mr. Hornerconsented to take only the first part of his amendment. His purpose in proposing the amendment was to record the difference in principle on this ques-

87]
tion. He agreed that the Bank could not open cash-payments till the market and Mint price of gold were the same; but then the Bank must take steps themselves to bring this about. He contended that the present amendment was perfectly consistent with the Report of the Bullion Committee. We had been already ten months at peace, and by the present Bill fifteen months were added to the period of the restriction, which amounted to more than two years. The House might rest assured that unless Parliament interposed, payments in cash would never be resumed by the Bank of England, whatever might be the good wishes expressed by the directors in that House. He then altered his amendment to the following words: "That it is highly desirable that the Bank of England should, as soon as possible, return to the payment of its notes in cash."
Mr. Rosesaid, that his expectations of payments in specie being resumed, arose from this: the price of gold in January 1814, was 5l. 10 s. an ounce, but, on account of peace, it fell in August last to 4l. 4s. The large importation of corn which followed, raised it to its present price; but when that importation ceased, and foreign ports were shut, gold would fall-again, and the Bank would then be able to return to payments in specie.
Mr. J. P. Grantwas satisfied that no person was anxious to force the Bank directors improperly to resume their cash-payments. He thought that the late fall in gold in this country might be attributed to the immense quantity of depreciated Russian and Austrian paper which inundated the continent. The gold was thereby forced into England, as it had formerly been driven from it by a similar cause. This was at least a plausible explanation of the variation that had occurred in the price of bullion. All that he desired was, that the Bank should commence measures with a view to what every person: considered necessary; and he hoped and trusted, that if the right hon. gentleman and his friends should find it impossible next year for the Bank to return to payments in cash, they would themselves move the House to inquire into the subject,
Mr. Grenfellwas persuaded, that if the House did not urge the Bank, payments in specie would never be resumed. Notwithstanding the high characters of the directors of the Bank of England, he begged leave to ask, whether it were not possible that they might err as to sound po-
[88
licy, and whether the House should resign its own judgment to the Bank? He alluded to the vast profits of the Bank of England in its connexion with the public, and thought that a sufficient ground for parliamentary inquiry. There were three sources of emolument to the Bank, exclusive of the usual profits of trade. The first was by the management of the public debt, the transfer of stock, and payment of dividends; by this they had received, up to February last, 265,000 l. per annum, which had been increased by the new debts to 270,000 l. The second source of gain was from the deposit of the public money. That deposit was no less than ten millions annually, while their advance towards the public expenditure was three millions without interest, leaving in their hands seven millions. The last, though not the least source was by means of this Bill now pending, by which they had increased their issues from the year 1797, to the present period, from 10 to 30 millions; and any person might conceive what immense profits must result from so extensive an issue. He thought that the public had a right to a participation of those gains, much greater than what they received at present.
Mr. Thompsonhad such confidence in the discretion of the directors of the Bank of England, that he was perfectly satisfied to rely upon their taking the proper measures to resume payments in specie, when circumstances would warrant such a step. He was quite at a loss to know upon what ground gentlemen were anxious to force a cash circulation at this moment. It did not appear to him, that the means by which gold was obtained was known to the generality of members, or he was sure they would not press the adoption of such a measure at this juncture. If it was once known that the Bank of England was purchasing bullion, the consequence would be an immediate rise in that article, and the exchanges, instead of being favourable, would be in a material degree unfavourable to this country; commerce would be thereby impeded, and the interests of the manufacturers would be sacrificed. The restraint on the issues of specie, he was satisfied, had been of great advantage to the commerce of this country, and particularly to those transactions which had taken place in London; and, for his own part, so little did he value a coin currency, that if he possessed a thousand guineas tomorrow, he would carry them to the Bank,

89]
and receive notes in their room, as being much more convenient.
Mr. Baringsaid, he was by no means prepared to agree with the hon. gentleman who spoke last, as lo the superiority of paper over gold and silver. He wished to see the currency once more restored to a sound state, and to see a mixed issue of paper and coin, which would be alike valuable at home and abroad. Although he admitted that the commerce of the country had been considerably benefited by paper issues; now that we were at peace, he hoped, although he did not expect, that ere long we should see the depreciated notes of the Bank of England superseded by the standard coin of the country; and he further wished, that in future no minister should be tempted to depart from this principle under any circumstance. While he was up, he begged to make a few observations upon the state of the silver coinage. Whenever we should return to a sound circulation of gold and silver, he thought it was of the utmost importance that Government should pay some attention to the introduction of such a silver coinage as would supply the place of the French coin, by which this country was at present inundated, and for which we were paying a premium of at least 60 or 80 per cent. It was impossible that we could look to the Bank of England to supply our deficiencies in this respect. He thought a coinage might take place at 10 or 15 per cent, under the standard value of silver, whereby a security would be afforded for keeping such coin in the country, and it would not be liable, at every little fluctuation in price, to be melted down for purposes of trade. This plan would not at all affect contracts, because silver was a legal tender only to a small extent, and gold might be, as it always had been, the real standard of the country, by which contracts with, individuals might be regulated. Such silver coinage might even be 20 per cent, below the standard value, and this would amply compensate for the expense of coinage, and the loss upon the base coinage in circulation. He suggested also that gold pieces of the value of 20 s. should be issued, which might be more easily divided into aliquot parts.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he rose merely to correct a misrepresentation which bad gone abroad as to what he had said on this subject upon a former night. He had expressed his hopes that the Bank
[90
would be able to resume their cash-payments on the 6th of July, 1816, but he had not said he was confident they would do so.
Mr. Horner'samendment was then agreed to.
Mr. Grenfellrose to introduce an amendment, the effect of which would be to limit the period of the restriction in the same manner as the property tax was limited by the Act of 1806, viz. to insert after the words '5th of July, 1816,' the words 'and no longer.' This, he observed, would not tie down Parliament if it should be found advisable to continue, the restriction, while it would fix the period of it, if nothing meanwhile occurred to prevent it.
Mr. Rosethought it quite sufficient that Parliament had described the limits of the restriction, and was of opinion that the amendment was utterly useless, and would only tend to mislead.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonsupported the amendment, because, though it could not bind Parliament, it would express strongly its present sense as to the time at which the Bank should resume its payments in cash. Since the year 1797 the restriction had been continued as a matter of course, and now it appeared to Parliament that the restriction should not be again renewed, it was proper that their opinion of the inexpediency of further renewal, should be stated.
Mr. Pole Carewthought the amendment perfectly unnecessary.
The House divided:

For the Amendment

17

Against it

75

Majority

—58

List of the Minority.

Abercrombie, J.

Monck, sir C.

Broadhurst, J.

Mackintosh, sir J.

Bewicke, C.

Morland, S. B.

Barnard, lord

North, Dudley

Douglas, F. S. N.

Ponsonby, G.

Fremantle, W. H.

Philips, G.

Heron, sir R.

Powlett, W. J. F.

Lambton, J. G.

Tierney, G.

Moore, P.

WAYS AND MEANS—NEW TAXES.
THE Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that on rising to move for the postponement of the committee of ways and means till Monday, he was not actuated by any desire to put off that part of the debate which related to the new taxes; but as several gentlemen wished to propose alterations, and as they must at present be very much

91]
fatigued from the length of the late discussions, he thought he should consult their convenience by this postponement.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that as far as he himself was concerned he did not wish the subject to be postponed. He was perfectly prepared to renew his observations on the subject, and to press it on the House that it was contrary to the form and essence of the mode of their voting money, that they should consent to grant so large a sum in taxes without farther information. If the right hon. gentleman would bring in the two first resolutions at that time, he could state the general objections which he had to urge, and which would have nothing to do with the nature of the particular taxes which were proposed.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, for his own part he was at that time unfit to attend to the discussion of any subject whatever; and he believed many members were equally fatigued with the late discussions: he wished, therefore, that the consideration of the resolutions should be postponed to Monday.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that as he believed it was the general wish of the House, he should move that the Report be taken into further consideration on Monday.
Mr. Philipssaid, that some of the taxes which had been proposed had excited great alarm among the manufacturing part of the community, and that deputations had been dispatched to wait on the right hon. gentleman. He thought therefore that Monday would be too early a period for the discussion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that a much longer period than was usual had been suffered to intervene between the introduction of the resolutions, and the final decision of the House concerning them. He had already collected much information on the subject of the different taxes, and before Monday there would be time for any gentleman to make further communications to him on the subject.
Mr. Protheroesaid, that it was understood to be the intention of the right hon. gentleman to propose some modifications in the taxes upon the windows of manufactories; he wished to be informed what was their nature, as this information might induce many of his constituents to suspend the petitions which they were about to bring forward on the subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was happy to state that to the House, which he had before stated to several gentlemen
[92
in private, that he had modified the tax, in such a manner that the pressure of it would not be inconvenient. The manufactories, in respect of windows, were of two distinct classes, one where the windows were small and numerous; the other where the windows were large, and extended from one end of the building to the other without division. Instead of 3s. 6d. per window he should reduce the tax to 1s. 6d. And when the number exceeded 100, the windows beyond that should be charged by measure, as in the case, of hot-houses, at 48 superficial feet the window, which would comprehend many small windows, and a great extent of the low long windows. As to the warehouse tax, he should not propose to adopt any progressive scale, and should propose the charge of only 2s. in the pound, however high the amount of rent might be, as the warehouse was considered as the means of profit, and not as the indication of the amount. Shops in those houses which were exempt from payment of taxes, at present, on account of poverty, would not be charged under the proposed tax; for instance, small cottages which contained shops. What he had said of warehouses, also applied to manufactories.
Mr. Butterworththought some modification of the tax on men-servants should be adopted, with respect to such as were under twenty years of age, who were taken by many persons as much from motives of charity, as for other purposes.
Mr. W. Smiththought an undue pressure was thrown by the new taxes on the manufacturing interest. He thought malt-houses and granaries should be exempted from the window duties on manufactories, as the windows were for air and not light.
The Report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday.