Commons Sitting of 7 June 1815

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Mr. Lockhart,by desire of his hon. and learned friend, (Mr. Serjeant Best,) begged leave to move, that the second reading of the Insolvent Debtors' Amendment Bill should be postponed to that day three months. He observed, that his hon. and learned friend took this course, with the view, not of abandoning the measure altogether, but of bringing it forward in the next session in such a form as he trusted would be in accordance with the general feelings of the House. With respect to the Bill now in existence, he had only to observe, that every day's experience showed how much it required amendment.
The motion was agreed to.

MASTER OF THE ROLLS IN IRELAND.
The Report of the Committee on the proposition for increasing the Salary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland was brought up. On the motion that the Resolution be agreed to,
Mr. Hornersaid, that the proposed increase of the income of the Irish Master of the Rolls still appeared to him to be a most objectionable grant. The Master of the Rolls in Ireland ought not to have his salary placed on the same footing with that of the Master of the Rolls in England, as the latter had much more business brought before him, and had besides higher duties to perform. The proposed augmentation of the income of the Irish Master of the Rolls would make it nearly equal to that of the same officer in this country, as it went to raise it to 4,300 l. while the emoluments of the Master of the Rolls in England, including every thing, did not exceed 4,500 l. Till within these few years the office of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland had been a mere sinecure. Certainly it was not so now; but still he saw no reason for making the proposed addition to the salary attached to the situation.
Mr. Peel,in bringing forward the proposition now under consideration, had

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wished the same principle to be acted upon which had been adopted with respect to the puisne judges of Ireland. He had not intended to place the salaries of the Masters of the Rolls in England and Ireland on the same footing. The resolution which he had submitted to the House went to give the Master of the Rolls for Ireland an income of 4,300 l. Irish currency. This, in British currency, was reduced to 4,000 l. He had considered such an augmentation was but just, as a compensation for the Six-clerks Offices, which had formerly been at the disposal of the Master of the Rolls, but which had ceased to be so. The character of the present Master of the Rolls could furnish no objection to the grant, as in the discharge of his official duties, his conduct had given such general satisfaction, that only three appeals from his decisions had yet been received.
Sir S. Romillyraised no objection on the character of the individual holding the situation of Master of the Rolls for Ireland, but he did not consider the proposed addition to his income to be necessary as compensation for the disposal of the Six-clerks Offices being withdrawn from him. In lord Kenyon's time those offices were never sold. The sale of them, he believed, though established by usage, was not sanctioned by law.
Mr. Peelsaid, that in the last session an Act was passed, intituled "An Act for the further prevention of the sale or brokerage of offices," in which the offices of Six-clerks were recognized as being saleable.
Sir Frederick Flood,although in general disposed to disapprove of measures which went to charge Ireland with additional incumbrances, yet from the nature of the present proposition, and a conviction of its justice, he should give it his support.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowfelt it painful to object to a grant proposed for the remuneration of a person holding a judicial situation, but he could not refrain from saying that the reasons given for the large increase of income now called for, were not such as ought to be satisfactory to the House.
Sir J. Newportdid not think it necessary for the salary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, to be placed on the same footing with that of the Master of the Rolls in England. He wished time to be given for making further inquiries on the subject, and thought it might be well to defer bringing in the Bill till the next session.
Sir J. Stewartspoke in favour of the Report.
Mr. J. P. Grantthought he had the authority of Parliament itself for saying, that it had never intended the salaries of the Masters of the Rolls in England and Ireland to be placed on the same footing; as when the office of Master of the Rolls in Ireland was created, that difference was established between the emoluments of the two situations which existed at present. What the House had to consider was, whether the salary of the Irish Master of the Rolls was sufficient to support the dignity of his situation, and unless proved to be inadequate, no increase ought to be sanctioned. The repeated applications of this nature made to the House ought to be strictly investigated.
Mr. Shawof Dublin spoke in favour of the resolution, and in flattering terms of the manner in which the present Master of the Rolls in Ireland performed the functions of his office.
Mr. Hornerthought, if the Irish Master of the Rolls had been in the habit of receiving money for the Six-clerks Offices, he had been guilty of a gross breach of the law, and of a misdemeanor for which he might have been impeached. It might be sanctioned by the Act passed at the close of the last session, when very few members were present, and the subject could not be fully examined; but with the exception of the provisions of that Act, such conduct had no justification in law.
Mr. Peelwas not aware that any vacancy in the Six-clerks Office had occurred, since the appointment of the present Master of the Rolls, but he believed it had invariably been the practice of the person holding that situation to make a profit of them. Besides the purchase-money, a fee had usually been paid to the Master of the Rolls, which fee would now no longer form a part of the emoluments of that individual.
The Report was agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a Bill.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL ESTATES.
Sir Charles Monck,without imputing any improper conduct to those who had the management of the estates in Northumberland, belonging to Greenwich Hospital, (which estates, from his own observation, he could say, were in many respects managed exceedingly well,) thought it desirable that the House should be put in

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possession of the sums expended on, and the revenue derived from them. He therefore moved, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the gross rental of the estates of Greenwich Hospital, in the county of Northumberland, and of the net produce of them in the years 1808,1809, 1810, 1811, 1812, 1813, and 1814, distinguishing the net produce of lands, houses, woods, mines, and other different kinds of produce, from each ether, and the net produce of the whole from the gross produce of the whole. 2. An account of all monies expended upon repairing, extending, building anew, and rebuilding farm-houses, out-houses, and all other appurtenances to farm-houses and farm-offices, upon the said estates, in the years 1811, 1812, 1813, and 1814. 3. An account of the number of agents and bailiffs employed in managing the said estates, with their several Barnes and salaries."
Mr. Crokersaid, that the estates had been exceedingly well managed, and it could not have been the interest of the receivers that they should be otherwise, as the expenses incurred on the lands could not be the means of putting a single farthing into their pockets. He could not say that they had been regulated with the same economy with which a private gentleman might manage his own estate; but within the last ten years their produce had been doubled. In the year 1805 the rental of them was 18,000 l. and in the last year it was somewhere about 40,000 l. This increase had been effected in such a way, that it had not been oppressive to the tenants. There were no had debts in consequence of the advanced rents, no runaway tenants, but on the contrary, those living on the estates were in a state of comfort, if not of affluence. The papers called for would give the House very imperfect information with respect to the general state of the affairs of the Hospital, but they might supply the hon. baronet with the means of more satisfactorily investigating the subject during the recess; and therefore he should not resist the motion.
Sir M. W. Ridleyunderstood the estates were at present managed by two receivers, who were paid 1,500 l. per annum. He thought one person would be sufficient to look to them, and that he might be paid with a smaller salary. There were also a number of agents and under-agents, who might be dispensed with. Other re-
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trenchments he thought might be made. At all events the accounts ought to be produced, as they would be satisfactory to the House, and were but what they had a right to demand.
Mr. Crokerstated the receivers to be paid by a per-centage on what they collected, and it was thought two would be better than one, as each might be supposed in some measure to be a check on the other.
Mr. Baringthought it was impossible the estates could be managed so economically as they ought, to be, and therefore was of opinion it might be better to sell them, and place the money in the funds.
Mr. Longsaid the question whether or not it would be wise to sell them, and place the money in the funds, was not now before the House. This, however, they had before them—that in 1805, they produced but 18,000 l. and that in the last year they gave 40,000 l. Had they been sold ten years ago, he feared the result would have been less favourable for the Hospital. He had no objection to the production of the papers. He was confident the whole of the directors would be willing to give the House all possible information en the subject; and he doubted not, on an inquiry being made, every thing would be found perfectly satisfactory.
The motion was then put and carried.

STAMP-DUTIES—NEWSPAPERS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to propose the schedule of Stamp-duties of which he had given notice. He observed, that the subjects on which the additional Stamp-duties were to be imposed, were law duties and newspapers. The first of these subjects, the taxation of law proceedings, was one on which too much attention could not be bestowed. He had submitted the present schedule to several very experienced persons in the profession of the law; and since the schedule had been before produced, there were many alterations made in it which would render it less objectionable. One alteration was, that the increased duties were not made progressive on the size of the instrument stamped, but that a certain increase of duty on each proceeding should take place. An objection also had been started against the schedule, which was, that the increase of the duties would

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have an unequal effect upon the proceedings in small courts. This also had been remedied by a diminished scale of duties applied to the small courts. Though the taxes on law proceedings were on general grounds objectionable, yet when it was considered how small a proportion of the expenses in a law-suit consisted of law duties, the objections would not appear so great as at first might be imagined. In a suit in which the solicitor's bill was 40 l., the amount of the old law duties, together with the new, was 40 s. In another, in which the expense was 35 l., the Stamp-duties were 3l. There was not, therefore, the same objection to these duties which at first sight seemed to attach to them.—As to the duties on newspapers, the first idea which he had was to lay an additional tax of 1d. on each paper; but as it was represented that this tax would have the most disadvantageous effect upon the circulation of the papers, he had imagined the increase of the duty on advertisements in proportion to their length; but though this seemed a fair proposition, it was strongly objected to by the editors of the newspapers, and an additional Stamp-duty of one halfpenny on each paper, and 6d. on each advertisement was preferred by the majority of the persons occupied in this line. To protect the public from an increase of the price of the papers beyond the amount of the tax, an additional discount would be allowed to those who only increased the price of their paper from sixpence-halfpenny to seven-pence, which discount would not be allowed to those who increased the price to a greater sum. Although the proprietors of the London papers were not equally willing to coincide in the arrangement which he had made, he was convinced that no duty would be more cheerfully paid by the public than an increase of one halfpenny on the price of a newspaper. The sale of these publications depending almost wholly on the situation of public affairs, and as at the present time, and probably for some years to come, a laudable curiosity would be directed to the events which were passing, and which exceeded in importance any which for ages before had occurred, the additional price of one halfpenny on the publications through which the public derived their information would not be grudged by the purchasers.
Sir J. Newportfelt a radical objection to the tax upon newspapers; it was of the
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utmost importance to the public that this channel of general information should be as free as possible to the community at large; and as the proposition of the right hon. gentleman was likely to limit that circulation, he thought it highly objectionable. As to the consolation which the right hon. gentleman gave the public, that the same melancholy inducement for political intelligence was still likely to be protracted, so far from thinking this a proper ground of support to a measure like the present, he thought it the very reason why a different policy ought to be pursued; because, at such times of general pressure to the community, every facility of instruction ought to be freely admitted. Because great calamity was likely to open upon the world, were the people to be driven to endure the still greater weight of additional taxation? The reverse was surely the true view of the subject. Nothing could be more unfair, when the political situation of the country rendered it alive to passing events, than that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come forward and say—"We will make you pay for intelligence, now that we see your necessities compel you, from the very operation of their pressure, to be more anxious for its reception." Now, he (sir John Newport) would contend that, so far from this position being the correct one, the direct contrary was the fact, and that public curiosity had a right to be with more facility indulged, when the state of the country afforded sufficient reason for its excitement. In proportion to the magnitude of the concerns of Great Britain, the circulation of her newspapers appeared smaller than those of other countries. Look to America, for instance, and see how far more extended was their circulation; and let them consider the consequences of drying up those sources of cheap and general information. He was not aware that the mode by which the right hon. gentleman sought to guard the public against ultimately paying more than the additional halfpenny on each paper would be at all effectual, or that it would remove his objections to the tax. It would, in the end, he was sure, prove as unproductive as all such expedients of gratuitous taxation had ever been found. Besides, the right hon. gentleman could not be ignorant that if the press were thus called into action against the pressure of a measure like the present, the effect would be, that although it

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would be unlikely great public measures would be in future exposed to misrepresentation, yet they would be open to a sort of high colouring, perhaps not exactly of that kind which it would suit; the right hon. gentleman to encounter. On the whole, it was one of the last taxes which the right hon. gentleman ought under any circumstances to have proposed.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he did not object to the lax on newspapers on account of the effect it would have upon the proprietors; but because it would diminish the circulation of information, he should oppose that part of the Resolution. As to the addition of sixpence on advertisements, he did not object to it. He understood the charge for the insertion of advertisements in the London papers was very great, and the delay considerable; for though a laudable practice existed at the offices of inserting advertisements by rotation, yet a practice as much to be reprobated existed, that advertisements were inserted out of their rotation on the payment of an additional sum. At the last general election, when he had had occasion to advertise a circular to the freemen of the town which he represented, resident in London, he had selected four London papers for that purpose, and was surprised to find the expense for the insersion of the advertisement twice in four papers. He was informed, on examining the accounts, that it was the custom to charge twice as much for advertisements at the time of a general election; a rule which did not exist, he believed, with the country papers. It was also remarkable, that there was a difference in these charges. The papers were two evening and two morning papers—the Morning Chronicle, the Morning Post, the Globe, and the Courier; in the Morning Chronicle he was charged 10 guineas, in the Morning Post 12 guineas, in the Globe 12 guineas, and in She Courier 16 guineas. This variety seemed singular to him, and it was not the less singular that those papers who adhered to the principles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer charged most for their advertisements. As the duty bore so small a proportion to the charge on advertisements, he should not oppose it.
Sir C. Monckopposed the tax on newspapers, and thought there could not be a time more ill chosen to deny the public information on the state of public events in which they were so deeply interested.
The Resolution imposing 3s. 6d. on
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every advertisement was agreed to; the House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.