Commons Sitting of 2 June 1815

PAUPERS' REMOVAL BILL.
Sir Egerton Brydgesmoved the second reading of the Bill to prevent the Removal of Chargeable Paupers, till a final adjudication of their respective Settlements.
Mr. Atkins Wrightobjected to the Bill, not because he was adverse to the principle, but because he feared that its provisions were impracticable. He thought that the whole of the Poor Laws required a revision; and that till some clear and comprehensive alteration of the whole could be made, it was in vain to apply partial remedies, and patch up a faulty system. He was afraid that the clause, which gave opportunity to parishes to be heard in the first instance against an adjudication by which they might be fixed with the pauper's settlement, would foment, instead of allaying litigation, and would be attended with a great deal of trouble both to parishes and magistrates.
Mr. Nicholson Calvertwas favourable to the principle of this Bill; but he feared that the complexity of its machinery would render it far less beneficial in its effects than the hon. mover supposed. He dreaded the number of hearings and re-hearings that it would cause: he was afraid that it would stir up attornies in the first instance, to contend with one another, and that the time and attention of magis-
[582
trates would be consumed in judging between opposing interests, which would have no other good effects than in filling lawyers' pockets. He wished well to the measure, if it could be exempted from these objections.
Mr. Westerndisapproved of this measure, as he had done last year, in toto. He saw in it endless difficulties: he could not comprehend its machinery; and if he could, he could not see cui bono it was created. He thought that parishes might thus be called on to oppose, at a great expense and inconvenience, adjudications before magistrates; and the consequence might be, that it would turn out that the pauper's settlement was not with them, but with some third parish; and so it would be proved that they never ought to have been summoned. And then another parish might be called on in the same way; and so it might go on from parish to parish. He therefore highly disapproved the Bill.
Mr. Wynnreally felt sincere reluctance at giving his opposition to any measure which had in view so beneficial an object, as that proposed by the hon. mover of this Bill. But he much feared that the present Bill would have a very contrary effect from that which was contemplated. The clause which provided for calling on parishes to resist adjudications, was pregnant with seeds of contest and trouble. He thought that if removals did not take place, as now, in the first instance, parishes would lose the benefit of ascertaining a pauper's identity by his presence among them; and that they ought not to be put to the expense of taking a long journey to cross-examine a pauper, and satisfy themselves by a personal examination. As the law now stood, the pauper was brought home to their doors for this purpose, and they had all the benefit of it in case of appeal. For thus they could better judge, whether there was ground for such appeal: while, so long as he was in the custody of the removing parish, they could not have an equally free and impartial examination of him.
Sir Egerton Brydgeswas not a little surprised at the arguments which had been urged in opposition to this Bill. He rather thought hon. members must have totally misunderstood both its nature and provisions. Its principle was founded on the most incontrovertible justice. It would scarcely be contended in these days, and it did not seem to be contended,

583]
that it was right to expose a pauper to be bandied about from one end of the kingdom to the other, upon an ex-parte adjudication, which was liable to be reversed; when all this cruelty, and all this expense, would be incurred for nothing: and when in case of appeal, whether the order was reversed or confirmed, the pauper would be called back again from the place to which he was removed, at best, in the character of a witness. But it was contended, that the machinery to effect this amendment was complex. He really doubted, if hon. members who made this accusation could have attentively read the Bill. There was no complexity in the machinery; there was not even novelty except in one clause, which was so far from being essential to his grand object, that it might be struck out without leaving the smallest chasm. Indeed, the clause alluded to, which gave occasion to all the arguments that had now been urged against the Bill, was not his own: it had been inserted in his Bill of last year, at the instance of the learned member for Oxford (Mr. Lockhart) and adopted in substance, but a little simplified in its manner, in the present. This clause provided, that after a first examination into a pauper's settlement, justices should give notice to the parish where the pauper's settlement appeared to be, that they would proceed to an adjudication on a future day, in order to give such parish an opportunity of being heard in opposition to it, if they chose so to do. This provision appeared to sir E. to be salutary. It was now urged, that it would tend greatly to increase expenses, and to encourage litigation in a premature stage: that attornies would be called into battle against attornies; and that witnesses would be brought from one end of the kingdom to another, to contend before magistrates in petty session, who would be bewildered by conflicting arguments, and after all make decisions which would be still liable to appeals, and expose the parties, at another great, expense, to agitate the question over again at a quarter-sessions. The member for Essex (Mr. Western) was alarmed at still additional evils: he conceived that all this premature battle might end in the discovery that the parish, thus urged to contend at great trouble and cost, had nothing to do with the pauper; and that the settlement was in some third parish. But did the hon. gentleman forget that such a discovery would not have
[584
been made but for that contest? And that if the parish bad avoided the evils of this opposition, they must have had the greater evil of supporting the pauper himself, so erroneously thrown upon them, till they could get rid of him on appeal? But if it was the opinion of this House, that the evil of this clause was greater than the good; if it was fairly liable to the objections thus brought forward, surely it afforded no ground for condemning the whole Bill: it might be struck out in the committee, without the least affecting the unity or principle of the Bill. For his own part, he had no wish to adhere obstinately to it: he would willingly sacrifice it, rather than create even a doubt on the other parts. As to the latter, he implored the House again to cherish the great object he had in view. He pressed upon their attention the anomaly which the law, as it now stood, exhibited on a subject affecting the essential happiness of perhaps not less than one third or one-fourth of the whole population of England. On other points even of the most trivial nature, no judgment could be obtained upon ex-parte statement, or ex-parte evidence; nor could any judgment be executed till after appeal, or hill the time of appeal had expired.
But here, on a question, on which depended the well-being, the domestic comforts, the moral feelings, the power of independent livelihood, the very character of almost every poor person in the kingdom, and perhaps his posterity for generations, an ex-parte decision was made, probably on the most imperfect evidence, to be carried into instant execution! Upon that decision a pauper, his wife, and his children, were to be packed off like felons for transportation; lifted into a cart, and dragged away from their home, to be a mark for the finger of scorn, through half the villages and towns, perhaps from the eastern point of Kent to the Land's-End! Is this enormous evil still to go on, after it has once been brought under the consideration of Parliament? Are minor difficulties, if such exist, to stand in the way of an amendment, for which there is such an imperious call? Can little objections about machinery, even if real, much less if imaginary, stand in the way of an endeavour to take away injustice of so extensive a nature? But where are the obstacles? Is there any obstacle to the effecting the delay of an order of removal? Is there any machinery required for a

585]
passive act—an act of omission? It could not be said, that this measure had been hurried through the House. The whole of it was involved in that Bill, which he bad last year the honour to introduce; and which, after much discussion, had passed through every stage except the third reading; and which last step he had declined to move, merely because the House had arrived within two days of the termination of the session; when it was obvious, that if it passed here, it could not have time to go through the Lords.
There had been urged an argument in favour of the existing law, with regard to immediate removals, and which filled him with some surprise. It was said, that a parish to which a pauper was adjudged, ought not to be deprived of the benefit of ascertaining his identity by his presence among them. Could it be seriously contended, that any number of settlement cases turned on questions of identity?—Nay, was it within probability, that a single instance of that kind could occur? How many scarce possible coincidences must there be to create such a case? A pauper, to effect this, must fix on some parish for his settlement, where he must first be aware that another of his own name had been at some time or other settled; and then invest himself in at least the colourable circumstances of that man's person and life! But were this question not only possible, but probable; can it be believed, that a parish would wish to purchase this benefit of examination, such as it is, at the expense of having a pauper and his family to support till they can get rid of him on appeal; when, according to the Bill now in discussion, all that intermediate burthen would be totally taken away from them! He once more, therefore, intreated the House, that if they admitted the principle of this Bill, they would allow it to be now read a second time; and if there were any objections to the clause, or the machinery, they might be argued, and altered in the committee.
Mr. Hornerthought the hon. baronet deserved the respect and thanks of the House for the pains he had taken, and the unshaken assiduity with which he had given his mind to a measure of such vast importance to the community. It was therefore with great reluctance, that he felt himself compelled to differ with him as to the means which this Bill provided for effecting his purpose. He was much afraid that it would not answer the end
[586
proposed. The machinery appeared to him liable to great objections, inasmuch as it seemed rather to encourage, than to appease litigation: but if it really would cut short litigation, it would only hasten the time at which the pauper might be removed; an event, which it seemed one main object of the hon. mover to delay. He should be most happy, if the great amendment in view could be brought about: but he really feared, that practicable means of effectuating the desired object had not yet been devised. The hon. member threw out a hint by which he thought the object might in part at least be effected, free from the difficulties which struck him in the present Bill.
Mr. Lockhartwas somewhat surprised at the suggestion of the hon. member who spoke last, because he himself had, in a former parliament, brought in a bill containing precisely the same plan as that which the hon. member now proposed, which had the misfortune to experience his decided opposition to it; and the bill was unfortunately thown out. He himself did not approve of all the machinery of the present Bill. He thought a great deal of evil and wasteful contest might arise from the clause which gave opportunity to parishes to oppose adjudications in the first instance. But as be approved the principle of the Bill, he should not oppose the second reading.
Mr. Whitbreadhad always been in favour of bills to ameliorate the condition of the poor. He had supported the hon. baronet's Bill embracing similar objects last year, and he should support this. He must say that its machinery did not appear to him as practicable as he could wish; but he begged the hon. baronet not to be discouraged: it was impossible but that the agitation of such questions should do a great deal of good. The public mind was thus, step by step, drawn to a due attention to objects which required their continual deliberation. He himself had not been so fortunate as to carry the great measure which he proposed some years ago with similar views: but he did not repent of the attempt; nor did he doubt that, though it failed, the very discussion of it had produced important benefits. As to the great schemes of general revision which hon. members talked of, and the arguments for delay which they founded on them, he considered them as nothing more than plausible pretences, to get rid of a measure al-

587]
together. It was only by touching small parts at a time that we could hope gradually to amend a branch of the law so complicated, so wide, and involving so many conflicting interests. He should therefore certainly vote for the second reading of the Bill, thinking that if there were objections to its details, they could be best discussed and altered in the committee.
The House then divided: For the Second Reading, 55; Against it, 23: Majority in favour of the Bill, 32.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred,
Lord Palmerstonsaid, he should merely state to the House, in a general way, the nature of the arrangements relative to the army. He had, in the first instance, made an estimate founded on the establishments at Christmas last, and then he had stated the augmentations which had been made since in consequence of the rupture with France; and the House would thus be enabled to see what increase had been made in consequence of the general state of our relations with France. There was, upon the whole, a decrease in our establishments of this year, compared with those of 1814, of 47,000 men, and 2,652,000 l. of charge. The total amount of Land Forces at Christmas last was 199,252, for which the charge was 5,587,706 l. for Great Britain, and 1,134,173 l. for Ireland—in all 6,721,880 l. But since the rupture with France, there had been an augmentation of 9,148 men, and 317,219 l. of charge, leaving the balance of diminution in favour of the present year, of 47,000 men and 2,652,000 l. of charge. On the Household troops there had been a reduction of 1200 men. The regiments of Cavalry were first reduced after the peace, on account of their great expense; each regiment was reduced to eight troops of 60 men each. The number of regiments of Infantry had been considerably reduced—24 second battalions had been entirely disbanded. The whole reduction arising from this, without considering the augmentation which had since taken place, amounted to 22,000 men. The next head, the Embodied Militia, could not be compared with the estimate of last year. With respect to the next head, the pay of General Officers not with regiments, this was
[588
founded on the arrangements of last year, and could not be compared with former accounts. In the next head, of Staff and Garrisons, a reduction of 237,000 l. had taken place, of which 98,000 l. was for the Home Staff, and the remainder for the Foreign Staff. He would state the comparative amount of the Staff now, and as it stood the former year. The Staff of 1815 was less even after the late augmentation than in 1814, by an amount of 39 general officers.—The increase on the head of Pay for Supernumerary Officers, ran to 6,000 l. The head of Half-pay and Military Allowances had experienced an increase of 38,000 l. This was partly owing to the number of reductions, and partly owing also to the augmentation in the rate of half-pay.—In the head of Out pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham hospitals, there had been an increase of 100,000 l. arising partly from the disbanded second battalions, and partly from invalids. The Volunteer Corps had been diminished in expense 145,000 l. The expense of the Local Militia was 27,6000 l. less than in 1814. In the article of Foreign Corps there was a diminution of 10,000 men, and 383,000 l. This arose principally from the disbanding four Foreign corps: the Brunswick infantry, which had gone to the service of the duke of Brunswick, Dillon's regiment, and the Chasseur battalion. In the Royal Military College there was an increase of 7,000 l., but of this 6,000 was only a nominal increase. There had, however, been art actual increase of something more than 1,000 l., of which 880 l. was for a new building at Blackwater. In the Royal Military Asylum there had been a diminution of 3,000 l. In the head of Retired Chaplains there had been a like reduction of 3,000 l. arising chiefly from deaths. In the head of Medicines and Hospital expenses, there had been a diminution of 89,000 l. on the estimate at last Christmas, but then there had since been an augmentation of 50,000 l. over that estimate, leaving a balance of 39,000 l. The increase in the Compassionate List amounted to 17,000 l. In the Commissariat Department of Ireland there was a total increase of 69,000 l. On the Barrack estimate the saving was 208,000 l. There were some other variations which it would not be necessary to go into at present. The augmentation in the Land Forces, since Christmas last, amounted in all to 9,148 men, and 384,000 l. of charge. The

589]
augmentation to the Staff was 50,000 l. Of this 6,000 l. was for the Home Stall, and the remainder for the Foreign Staff. An additional major-general had been appointed on the home staff; the remainder consisted of medical officers, to be ready in case of any supply being wanted. A farther sum of 50,000 l. would be wanted for Medical Stoves. It only remained for him to mention the head of Officers attached to the Portuguese Army. This arose from their being detached from their regiment, and placed on unattached pay. He would take this opportunity of stating, that there would be one additional charge, which he could not yet submit to Parliament. It was in contemplation to make to officers inarching with their regiments on home stations, an allowance corresponding to that made to soldiers on the same station. This was considered but equitable, as the officers were at such times deprived of those economical advantages which they might possess in stationary quarters; and it was thought better to give them such an allowance than to make a small increase to their daily pay, as the relief would thus come at the moment of the pressure.—On a general view, including the augmentation since the change in our relations with France, there was a diminution in the estimates compared with those of last year, without including the militia, which could not with propriety be taken into the comparison, but merely the land forces and foreign corps, of 47,000 men, and 2,652,000 l. charges. He would not enter into further details, as it might be tedious to the House; but if any hon. member wished for further information, he should be happy in communicating it. The noble lord concluded with moving his first resolution: viz. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 199,767 men (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India Company, the Foreign Corps in British pay, and the Embodied Militia), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom, from the 25th of December 1814 to the 24th of December 1815."
General Gascoynesaid, it was his intention to have moved for an addition to the half-pay of officers; but from the alteration of affairs, in consequence of the war, he did not think it necessary now to bring forward any motion on the subject,
[590
as he was apprehensive that if the half-pay was raised too much, it might deter those who had families from actual service. He wished to make a remark on the subject of officers' widows. It was the intention of the noble lord to put the widows of officers of the army on the same footing as those of navy officers. But though the same increase had taken place in the case of both, they were by no means on the same footing, because the officers of the navy had received an addition to their pay, at a time when no addition took place in the case of the army. It was understood that lieutenant-colonels and majors were on the same rank with post-captains under three years standing. Now the widow of a post-captain received 80 l. and the widow of a lieutenant-colonel and major only received 70 l. The whole sum requisite to put them all on the same footing would be 1,200 l. He saw nothing in the papers on the table respecting, the Commissariat.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, this was always the subject of a separate estimate.
General Gascoyneproceeded to observe, that the coble lord had not stated whether the officers on half-pay on the Irish and English establishments were on the same footing. He wished also to know-by what act the poundage on the pay of officers was raised. He wished to know whether the Portuguese officers received pay both from England and Portugal. With respect to the half-pay which had been granted to the army, according to the noble lord's construction, it had been limited to certain services. By this means a great many meritorious officers would be excluded from it, contrary, as he was convinced, to the intention of the House. The services in the Peninsula were certainly brilliant; but were those officers who had served in Egypt, America, and Flanders, to be precluded from the additional half-pay because they were not in the Peninsula? Many of them were, on half-pay, not from their own choice. He wished therefore to move an additional allowance of 500 l. to the widows of lieutenant-colonels, and of 700 l. to the widows of majors.
Mr. Bennetwished to inquire into the expense of the Military College at Sandhurst. He had no objection to the establishment itself, but he had to the form which it seemed to assume, and which was calculated to give too much of a military tone to the character of the country.
Mr. Wilberforcethought the Military College highly beneficial to the country, from the instructive source of military education which it formed. It was surely essential that the officers in the service should have the opportunity of an extensive preliminary education.
Sir John Hopereprobated the general assertions in which Mr. Bennet had dealt, in his attack on the institution at the head of which he had the honour of being placed. The object, if properly executed, was most beneficial; it was open as day to inspection, and he should be happy to receive any hints that would be useful; as soon as any useful suggestion was made, the improvement would be attempted.
Mr. Bennetreplied, that his objections merely went to the military tone which the form and manner of the school assumed, not to the general principle of the establishment.
Sir John Hopespoke highly both of the objects and success of the institution in question. At the commencement of the war we had been obliged to study military science under foreign masters; we had since, through the munificent aid of Parliament, acquired the means of obtaining that instruction within ourselves. Out of 276 students of one class, 114 either had served, or were now serving on staff departments. The time consumed in becoming acquainted with regimental drill, and the manœuvres of taking up ground for forming in line, did not exceed an hour, or half an hour in the day; the rest was devoted to pursuits becoming a gentleman as a well-informed member of society, or more immediately connected with the views of that profession to which it was intended the student should be trained. In addition to those branches of instruction in which he was supposed to have already made some progress, his attention was directed to mathematics, to fortification, to the principles of military survey, both practical and theoretical, to drawing, and, according to the abilities displayed, to an intimate knowledge of the French and German languages. The series of his studies was completed by a high finishing examination made by other masters than those under whose direction he had been, and it was those masters who finally decided whether his proficiency and qualifications entitled him to a commission without purchase in his Majesty's service. Of another class, 651 officers
[592
had already joined the army. The sum paid by an ordinary individual for these various advantages was 100 l. per annum, but by officers, for their sons, the sum was proportioned to their own pay. He could conceive no system better calculated than the one of which he had attempted a faint description, to inspire the youths who should be educated under it, with a love and a veneration for that free branch and for those free principles of the constitution to which they were indebted, at least in so many instances, for cultivated minds, and brightened prospects. He could conceive nothing more likely to console a deserving officer than the knowledge that an asylum existed where his children might receive, at a charge proportioned to his means, the benefits of instruction, and a favourable opportunity of pursuing his own honourable profession.
Lord Palmerston,in answer to the inquiries of an hon. member, stated, that it had been agreed, after some difficulty, that the half-pay of the English and Irish establishments should be reciprocal, and that their respective officers, on removing, should receive the half-pay of the country in which they resided. The reason which had induced the exclusion of those officers whose service was anterior to the last war, or to the campaigns of the Peninsula, was, that there were a great number of inefficient officers, and it was difficult to come to the alternative of compelling them either to serve or to relinquish their commissions. In many cases there had been no real service, and the half-pay had been purchased as an annuity. With respect to the officers serving in the Portuguese forces, the various difficulties they had had to contend with, in rendering those troops fit for the field, appeared to justify the regulation by which they were allowed to receive Portuguese pay in addition to their own. In answer to a question put by another hon. member, he wished to observe, that the military establishment at Sierra Leone, had been formed on a plan recommended by the late member for Yorkshire; and its principle was, that as something must be done with the captured negroes, it was a favourable destination for them to be put on something like the level of a British soldier. The establishment consisted at present of 566 men, volunteers, and captured negroes, and of 104 boys. After what had been so well said by an hon.

593]
end gallant friend, he should not enter into a vindication of the establishment at Sandhurst. He might be allowed, perhaps, just to say, that it might be a question whether we should have any army at all, but it could hardly admit of a doubt, that if we had military officers, they ought to be instructed and qualified, rather than ignorant and useless. The navy had already its seminaries; the artillery and the Indian army its public colleges. Was the British army alone to have no means of deriving a regular supply of efficient and educated officers? He should say no more at present than in reference to an observation which had fallen in the course of the debate, to slate that an inspection had taken place in the buildings at Sand-burst, and that it was discovered there was little or no foundation for the rumour that the dry rot had seized the timber.
Mr. Longbore testimony to the benefits arising from the Military College, and explained the nature of the poundage which had been alluded to, and the authority by which it was drawn. It was done away in cases of full pay, and, might hereafter be subject to limitation in other branches of the service.
Sir M. W. Ridleyreprobated the maintenance of a volunteer cavalry, whose services were not equal to the expense. He was convinced of the utility of the Military College.
General Gascoyneexpressed himself satisfied with what had fallen from the noble lord.
Mr. J. P. Grantexplained, the nature of Mr. Bennet's objection to the Military College, but applauded the general system on which it was conducted, and admitted its great utility. The pressing of waggons for the conveyance of baggage he believed had, in some instances, been carried to too great an extent, and some arrangement was in contemplation on the subject. As to the yeomanry, he thought this species of force was most valuable, not merely as a military force, but in aid of the Police, in which department it had been of the most essential service.
Mr. Wilberforceapproved of the establishment of the black regiments, and suggested that this description of force should be put on the same footing as European regiments.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that they were on the same footing as whites, with the difference that two years of service in the West Indies did not reckon for three years
[594
—the ground for that distinction not existing in the case of these regiments.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he more particularly alluded to enlistment for a limited period, from which this description of soldiery was precluded. If the blacks were allowed to return, after a certain period of service, to their native country with their military habits and associations, they would necessarily increase the disposition among their countrymen to enlist.
General Gascoynesaid, that in certain cases the blacks had been enlisted for a limited time.
Mr. Wilberforcethought the gallant general must have been misinformed, as there was a clause in the Act excluding the black troops from that benefit.
Mr. W. Smiththought it was due in justice to the blacks who when captured were placed in the situation of soldiers, without exercising any choice, to allow them, at any rate after a certain term of service, the alternative of further service or of return to their names.
The Resolution was then agreed to. Several sums were then voted for the different heads of army expenditure, forming in all a total of 7,917,387 l.

ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,in pursuance of his notice, rose to propose a vote to complete the Army Extraordinaries he should state to the committee what sum he had thought fit to propose to cover that branch of expense for the present year, although from former experience he could not, with any confidence, assert the accuracy of the estimate which had been formed Towards the army extraordinaries of the present year, three millions had already beep, voted; and it was now in his contemplation to propose a further vote of nine millions, making in all 12 millions for the army extraordinaries of the current year. This amount was calculated on three grounds; one ground of calculation was the amount of the expenditure for the first three months of the year, which had been 1,800,000 l. From the renewal of the war, the ratio of expense would no doubt be much increased, though a diminution, on the other hand, would take place, by the return of the troops from America. Though the increase would be very great on the Continent, he calculated it could not be mare than double the present expenditure. A second ground was, the probable expenditure under the

595]
different heads in the different parts of the world. The probable expense of the British on the Continent, including compensation for that part of our contingent, would be 500,000 l. per month, or six millions in the year. In America and the West Indies, the amount would be, perhaps, 3,000,000 l., and 3,000,000 l. would be further required to pay the debts contracted, and the extraordinaries of the army in the Mediterranean; this would amount to 12 millions. The other ground on which it was calculated, was the expense of the last years of the former war; and looking to the expenditure of the years 1812 and 1813, excepting the arrears of the former years, it would be found to be between 12 and 13 millions a year. From those three calculations an approximation might be formed, and he would put it to the judgment of the committee, whether the sum he proposed was too small. That it was too large, he believed no one would be inclined to imagine. That the sum was great, he allowed; but on considerations both of policy and economy, a great effort, which might bring the contest to a speedy conclusion, was advisable. To vote a smaller sum, would lead to disappointments in future, and to present embarrassments. He concluded by moving, "That a sum not exceeding nine millions, be granted to his Majesty, for further defraying the Extraordinary Expenses of the Army of Great Britain and Ireland for the year 1815."
In answer to a question from Mr. Tierney,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained, that on a former occasion he had proposed six millions on account for the extraordinaries of the present year, and four millions to pay off arrears. The right hon. gentleman had objected to the vote on account, and a sum of three millions only, which was the expense then supposed to have been incurred in this year, was voted, together with the four millions for arrears. It was found, however, that the actual expense had only been 1,800,000 l. up to March, the time when the vote took place. The remaining 1,200,000 l. was applied to other purposes.
Mr. Tierneyobserved, that the rest of the three millions voted for army extra-ordinaries must have been applied to purposes not connected with the army extraordinaries. The introduction into the army extraordinaries of sums not connected even with the army, was the great cause of confusion in those accounts, and
[596
the obstacle to a clear understanding of their amount. It was in vain, however, to talk of finances at the present moment—for an effort was to be made at any rate; expensive, no doubt, it was; whether it would be effectual, would be seen by-and-bye. But this he ventured to say, that if we proceeded at our present rate of expenditure, the House should have some reason before it sanctioned it, to believe that the war would be concluded even before the end of the present year.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the foreign expenditure being all entrusted to the commissaries general, the sums paid could not be divided into the heads of ordinaries, extraordinaries, &c. until the accounts were brought to this country. The greatest part of the 1,200,000 l. which remained out of the three millions voted for army extraordinaries, had been applied to the liquidation of bills of trade, created in 1813, by Act of Parliament; but as those bills were provided for by other grants, the sum would be still applicable to the army extraordinaries for the remainder of the year.
Mr. Tierneywished, that at the time when the measure of war had been sanctioned by the House, the expense had been laid before them. At first the question was merely proposed to them abstractedly, then came a little grant of money, and then larger votes, till at last the House would be called on to vote for the first year of the present war 30 millions sterling at the least for the subsidies and warlike establishments, such as army, navy, ordnance, transports, &c.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was true that the expense of the year would be very great; but it would have been great even if it had not been a year of war, because the arrears of the last war which were to be provided for, were between 18 and 20 millions.
Mr. Tierneysaid, it was to be observed, that an arrear of 20 millions had been incurred, during the former war, while the expenditure of the war was supposed to have been fully provided for; they should, therefore, take care that they did not incur another 20 millions of arrears; and notwithstanding the expenditure of 80 millions in the present year, we were not secure against it.
The Resolution was agreed to.

CONDUCT OF GOVERNOR AINSLIE.
Mr. Gordon,on rising to comment upon the

597]
conduct of a person who had enjoyed an important situation, and was of a respectable character, thought it necessary to disclaim all motives of personality towards the individual, and to declare that he was actuated only by a sense of duty to the public. He was totally unacquainted with governor Ainslie, and nobody would feel more gratified than himself, if his conduct with reference to the two situations he had held at Grenada and Dominica should be perfectly justified. The papers relative to the transactions at Grenada had been a long time before the House; he should therefore only briefly mention the circumstances contained in them, on which his observations would be founded. It appeared that general Ainslie, on being appointed vice-governor of Grenada, had issued, in November, 1812, a proclamation, directing all free persons of colour in the island to appear before him, and take the oath of allegiance under pain of being sent away; and the time given was only one week for those persons to appear from all parts of the settlement. A person named Jean Michell came and took the oath in November 1812; but in April following, the governor, with a corporal and two privates, went to the house of Michell, and delivered him into the custody of the cage-keeper, and after being imprisoned he was punished by receiving twenty lashes: he was put into a sort of black hole, and fed for three days on bread and water. On the fourth day, his friends applied for a copy of the document under which he was imprisoned, in consequence of which the governor ordered him to be released, but gave no reason for his conduct. When, however, it was understood that civil proceedings were about to be instituted against him, he sent and offered him a sum of money, which the man accepted, but afterwards thought proper to return. The governor then had him sent away, and went himself to the printer of the Gazette, directing him to insert a notice giving an account of those proceedings, and describing Michell to be a free man of colour, who had been shipped off the island in consequence of not having taken the oath of allegiance. The consequence was, that an investigation took place by a petition of the inhabitants; and the resolutions which a committee of the Assembly agreed to were, that the House were convinced of the loyal principles and good conduct of the free men of colour on the island, and were resolved to support
[598
them; they added, that it had been proved by evidence, that the liberty of these persons had been grossly abased by general Ainslie, and censured his conduct in strong and indignant terms. The hon. gentleman, after reading these resolutions, contended that the evidence against Michell was ex parte; and when an action was commenced against Green, the cage-keeper, the plea was, that Michell was a slave. But the proclamation was only addressed to free men, and therefore the governor had no right to take a slave and flog him, merely because he might be found walking about. The result of the trial, in which the cage-keeper was the nominal defendant, was, that only 5l. damages were given against the governor, with the right of remission of it, if it could be proved that Michell was a slave. Michell was then advised, in consequence of the smallness of the damages, to let the business rest. On a complaint of this transaction being sent home, lord Bathurst wrote to governor Ainslie in reprobation of his conduct. His letter was dated the 19th of March, 1814; and, after animadverting on the circumstances, it added, that any such conduct in future would call for the severest reprehension. Michell went to Dominica, to procure a certificate of his not having been a slave: but on his return, he was not suffered to land, because he had been sentenced to be flogged. General Ainslie afterwards went, as governor, to Dominica, at which time there was an insurrection amongst the slaves, or as they were variously called, Maroons, runaways, or deserters from their masters. On his assuming the government of Dominica, this evil had proceeded to a considerable extent.—The hon. gentleman said he did not mean to object to the quelling this insurrection, but to the proceedings of the governor in reducing it. He published a proclamation, offering unconditional pardon to those who returned to their duty, but declaring the utmost rigour against those who held out, adding that neither age nor sex should be spared, but that all should be indiscriminately put to the bayonet. It would be said, that this was only a proclamation in terrorem, and that it had never been acted upon. He was ready to admit that this was so far true; but, to say the least of it, it was extremely indiscreet and unjustifiable. That it was not acted upon, might be owing to the good sense of the officers; for if any of them had acted with such

599]
violence, they would have found their justification in the document in question. There was, indeed, a declaration of a captain Savarin, stating, that he had never received orders to put to death any runaway, but that he had sent for weeks together agents to the Maroons, to treat with and persuade them to return home; and it was even customary for the men not to return their firings. This was certainly, much in explanation of the proclamation, and in proof of its non-execution. But there was another document, being an account of the number of Maroons killed, &c., from which it appeared that 12 had been killed in action, 42 punished, and 530 restored to their owners, many of whom had been from 10 to 35 years in the woods. Now, it would be curious to know how the owners of such persons could be ascertained, as well as the identity of the slaves. The war, in a great degree, resembled the Maroon war some years ago in Jamaica. By prescription, from the length of time they had been away, many of these persons might be deemed free people, and he hoped it would be proved, at least, that all the men so handed over as slaves were runaways. There were many testimonies in favour of general Ainslie from respectable people in Dominica, and even from the Assembly which he himself had dissolved, on the ground that it had shown inattention to the interests of those whom it represented. If he understood the hon. Secretary opposite, he had told him, that governor Ainslie had satisfied Government as to his conduct, and that it was their intention to send him back again. It was in consequence of this information that he had moved for the printing of the papers, that an opportunity might be given for his justification. He had, however, besides to state, that information had been received in a letter from Dominica, that general Ainslie, on making a tour through the island, had directed four black soldiers to attend him, and they not arriving in time, he, without any court-martial, directed them to be flogged. For this conduct the government of Dominica were determined to pause on admitting him back. There was another case of still more importance than any one of the rest, and it was on this account that it was his intention to move for a committee of investigation, that whatever related to the general's conduct might appear at once. A most respectable gentleman, Mr. Aberdeen, a man of
[600
large property in the island, had received a letter here in London from his manager, dated the 4th of last June, in which he stated, that information having been given to governor Ainslie that two slaves were in communication with the runaways camp, and had sold them some provisions, which, however, were not the property of their masters, he ordered the writer, the manager in question, to have them arrested, and sent to him into the town. They were sent, but this person did not accompany them, because he was not aware that any violent proceedings were in contemplation; but in a few days afterwards a messenger arrived from the governor, with a box upon his head, and a letter, saying, "I have executed one of the two slaves you sent me, after being tried by a court-martial, and this is his head, which you are to place on a pole upon the estate!"—(Hear, hear!) The other slave was imprisoned, and afterwards shipped off the island. The hon. gentleman said he had asked Mr. Aberdeen, why, if he had received this letter so long ago, he had not taken some steps upon it before now; and he answered, that he had communicated it to the Secretary of State, adding that he had no idea Government would ever have thought of sending the general back to the island. On the whole, to say the least, governor Ainslie had been guilty of such great indiscretion, that he appeared ignorant of the colonial laws, and was unfit to be a governor. All such persons ought to be of mild dispositions, and not given to passion. The hon. gentleman then adverted to the condition of the slaves in our colonies, which was susceptible of great amelioration; and he called on those members who had so nobly exerted themselves in effecting the abolition of the trade, to reflect that much remained to be done. He had some hundreds of slaves under his own protection, and he felt that he should best perform his duty and consult his interest by considering how he could ameliorate their situation.
He concluded by moving, "That a Committee be appointed to inquire into the conduct of George Robert Ainslie, esq. while Vice-governor of Grenada, and Governor of Dominica, and to report their opinion to the House."
Sir Robert Heronspoke at considerable length in defence of the character of governor Ainslie. He said, be would first advert to the charge against him, of having

601]
ordered four black soldiers to be flogged without trial. The whole of the story rested on what purported to be the letter of one Joanna Clapham, who kept a gin-shop at Roseau, in the island of Dominica. This document, however, and the charge itself, were now under the consideration of the Commander-in-chief, and he would not presume to anticipate what would be his Royal Highness's decision upon it. The next charge was that of flogging, without trial, a free man of colour, of the name of Jean Michell, while acting-governor of the island of Grenada. In regard to this he would observe, that governor Ainslie found the island in a very disturbed state, it being chiefly inhabited by disaffected Frenchmen, who bad refused to take the oaths. This Jean Michell was a native of Mariegalante, and had recently arrived on the island. He allowed that the governor had acted indiscreetly in punishing this man, before having made sufficient inquiry whether he had taken the oaths or not; but he had little doubt that the case would never have been heard of, had it not been to gratify the revenge of a person of the name of Adye, who had acted as coroner of the island, and president of the senate, but who was prosecuted and fined at the instance of the governor, for the fraudulent sale of government lands in the colony. Hence the story of Jean Michell was brought forward, which never would otherwise have been heard of. But from a paper which had been presented to the House, it appeared that the real charge against this Michell was his having robbed one Lawrence by means of a false key, and it was on this account that he was flogged. He admitted it to be indiscreet in governor Ainslie to have ordered this punishment of twenty lashes by his own authority; but it in fact amounted to mercy to the offender, as, had he been tried in a court of justice, his punishment would probably have been much more severe. When the governor heard of the strong sensation which the proceeding had created among the people of colour in the colony, he sent this Michell money as a compensation, which he at first took, but afterwards sent back, and brought his action against the governor in the Colonial Court, in which he succeeded. The only reason why the governor did not contradict the report of Michell having been flogged for not taking the oaths, was that it had the good effect of bringing down all the others in a similar situation to take the
[602
oaths. The only damages which the Colonial Court gave to Michell in his action against the governor were 5l.; so that they did not estimate very highly the injuries he had sustained. Under all the circumstances, he thought that governor Ainslie had been already sufficiently punished for his indiscretion. He had paid the fine, and, what must have painfully affected him as a man of honour, he had received the reprimand of lord Bathurst. It was probably the zeal of gentlemen for the black population of the West Indies that induced them to push this inquiry: but they should recollect that it was possible enthusiasm might go beyond justice: that they also owed something to their white fellow-countrymen, and that they ought not to export the whole of their benevolence to a foreign market, but reserve some of it for home consumption. The next charge to which he should advert, was the governor's conduct towards the Maroons. The House should know that these Maroons were, in the island of Dominica, entirely composed of runaway slaves, who took refuge in the centre of the island, which abounded in the most unapproachable fastnesses, whence they could issue forth to the destruction of the planters, and bid defiance to attack. Governor Ainslie, on his arrival on the island, formed a corps of black rangers for their reduction. He also issued a proclamation sanguinary certainly in its terms, but intended for intimidation, not to be literally executed. The Mutiny Act, which Parliament passed annually, was most sanguinary in its enactment, for it denounced death almost in every line; and yet who ever thought of shooting a soldier or a militiaman for every offence to which the punishment of death was there attached? At the time the proclamation was issued, the island was in danger of being ruined by these marauders: the most rigorous measures were absolutely necessary, as these Maroons had shot both the messengers whom the governor sent to them: but the proclamation had ultimately the effect of saving even the lives of men who lived by robbery, and whose occupation was murder. The rangers and the proclamation set to work together: the former were instructed by the governor himself to act with the greatest lenity, and accordingly only twelve of the robbers were killed during the whole war, while the rangers were often seen bringing in the half-starved women and children of the

603]
Maroons, for the purpose of taking care of them. As to the case of the two men who were convicted of selling provisions and ammunition to the runaway negroes, only one of them was executed; and it was his head that was sent in a box to another part of the island, for the purpose of being exhibited in terrorem. Upon the whole, it appeared to him, that the conduct of governor Ainslie had been vigorous, laudable, and patriotic. This was the light in which it was viewed by every class of inhabitants in the island, who had, in an address to that gentleman, expressed their anxious wish for his return among them. He could not, therefore, concur in the present motion, which went to inflict the punishment of preventing his return.
Sir Samuel Romillythought, that unless the House proved false to all its professions for the benefit of the black population of the West Indies, it could not refuse to institute the inquiry now called for. As to what the hon. gentleman had said of some of the charges originating in private revenge, it should be recollected, that the atrocious murders perpetrated by one Hodges, in one of the islands, would never have been brought before the public, but for a private quarrel. He was surprised that the friends of governor Ainslie should oppose an inquiry. Here sir Samuel read the depositions of several persons, all going to prove that Michell was flogged for not taking the oaths; bat whatever the offence, the punishment was inflicted without trial, in the public market-place, and by order of a British governor, whose special duty it was to protect the people of colour. This duty the West India governors had been specially charged to perform, in a circular addressed to them by the duke of Portland in 1797. Was the offence to be passed over, because a West Indian jury, with all its prejudices against people of colour, had given Michell only 5l. damages? The House, to act consistently with the principles it professed, ought to study the immediate amelioration of the state of the negroes and people of colour, and the gradual abolition of slavery itself. This he understood to be the ultimate object of all our wishes. Was it not necessary to inquire into the situation of Dominica, before the House could own a proclamation which condemned men women, and children, to destruction? Here sir Samuel referred to some of the documents, from whence he drew the conclusion that there was no war on the island,
[604
but merely the fear of future disturbance. It appeared that no less than 700 of these Maroons had been reduced to slavery; from which he suspected, that one great cause of the war proclaimed against them, was to procure slaves that could not be obtained by importation. He could not admit that to whip a man in the public street for a crime which governor Ainslie must have known he had not committed, was to be frittered away and shielded under the mild and gentle term which the hon. baronet had given it—"an act of indiscretion." This governor Ainslie punished a man for not having done that which he had made oath before the governor himself be had done; but in order to justify his own misconduct, he added injury to insult, and out of a freeman, he, by dint of power vested in himself by means of his office, made his victim a slave, pretended he had been a slave in Dominica, to which island this same general Ainslie had been recently appointed governor; and when this unfortunate man proceeded to Dominica, to obtain evidence of his not having been a slave, governor Ainslie exerted his power there also against him, and by virtue of that power, prevented him from landing on the island, and thus deprived him of every possible means of proving he was not a slave, nor ever bad been a slave in Dominica, as had been most unjustifiably alleged against him. These were acts which could not but arouse the indignation of every man of the least degree of feeling and regard to justice; and he thought them quite sufficient to demand the committee moved for by his hon. friend.
Mr. W. Smiththought governor Ainslie, like all other persons in the West India islands, must know that the greatest injustice that could be done to an individual was to deprive him of his freedom. Michell, it appeared, had first been punished for nothing at all—for not taking an oath in obedience to a proclamation of the governor; which oath, it was proved by several witnesses, he had taken in the presence of governor Ainslie himself; and those who had treated him thus, endeavoured to escape from the consequences, by depriving him of the most precious thing he possessed—his freedom. This was the paltry, mean, base, and abominable defence which had been set up, and this defence made him more indignant than all the rest. Lord Bathurst, on perusing the papers which were submitted to him on behalf of governor

605]
Ainslie, had said, that the justification of his conduct was not complete. He thought the noble lord must have felt they furnished no justification at all. All the evidence brought forward to prove Michell was a slave, had been obtained from the island of Dominica, where the power of governor Ainslie had been at that time predominant, and obtained from that island to which Michell had repaired, in order to prove that he was free. The evidence of his being free was tea times stronger than that which had been adduced to prove that he was a slave. Under all the circumstances of the case, he hoped the House would consult its own dignity, by acceding to the motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that nothing could be more candid, than the manner in which the hon. gentleman had brought this subject forward. He, however, must oppose the motion on this principle, that to entertain it would, be to prejudge the question between, Michell and governor Ainslie, which was to be tried in this country, in those courts where the whole of the transactions could be more satisfactorily investigated than they could be by that House. This stated, he trusted it would be felt that to anticipate the inquiry would be to defeat it. He briefly replied to some of the statements made in the course of the debate. He asserted the proclamation to have been issued in consequence of murders and depredations which had been committed upon the whites, and when the general state of things had become such as to threaten the loss of the island. From all that he knew on the subject, he had reason to believe the result of the inquiry would be satisfactory to the friends of general Ainslie.
Mr. Gordonbriefly replied. He wished to observe with respect to the trial which had been mentioned as coming on in this country, that the difficulties which must first be surmounted had to him appeared so considerable, that he had thought he ought not to suffer what to him appeared so remote, to prevent the present motion being made. On an understanding that governor Ainslie would not return to Dominica, till this matter had been explained, he would consent to withdraw the motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, he would not return till after the trial, which he apprehended would afford every requisite explanation.
Mr. W. Smithwished it also to be under-
[606
stood that he would not be appointed. This was a material point, as the salary attached to the situation was paid from the time at which the appointment took place.
Mr. Goulburnstated the appointment to have taken place some time since, but he had been ordered to remain in England to answer the charge. He presumed it was not desired that he should be dismissed, as that would be to prejudice the question.
The motion was then withdrawn by the consent of the House.