Commons Sitting of 24 April 1815

SLAVE TRADE.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of the several Acts relating to the Abolition of the Slave Trade,
Mr. Robinsonrose to move certain clauses to provide for the care and maintenance of negroes captured in foreign vessels, between the period of their being carried into any port belonging to this country, and that of the final adjudication of the prizes. A considerable time had sometimes elapsed after they were carried into port, before the vessel was condemned; and the consequences of this delay, and of there having been no regular provision made for the care and maintenance of the negroes, had, in one instance, pressed very severely on the unfortunate victims who were taken in the prize. The governor of the colony where the cause was to be tried, had, much to his credit, taken upon himself to cause certain issues to be made from the funds of the island, and thus saved the lives of some of the captives, but several of them unfortunately died. He then moved two resolutions: viz. 1. "That it is expedient that provision should be made for the care and maintenance of any Negroes condemned in any court of Vice-Admiralty during the period of appeal from the decision of any such Court. 2. That it is expedient that provision should be made for the care and maintenance of Negroes brought in for adjudication to any of his Majesty's possessions between the period of their being so brought in and any adjudication of the Court."
The Resolutions were agreed to, and ordered to be reported to-morrow.

SUBSTANCE OF THE TREATY ENTERED INTO AT VIENNA.
Mr. Whitbread,seeing the noble lord in his place, rose to read the motion which he proposed to submit to the House. He then read his intended motion, viz. "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before this House, the substance of any treaty or engagement entered into at Vienna on or about the 25th day of March last between the ambassadors of his Majesty and his Majesty's Allies, together with the substance of any note of explanation of any article or articles of the said Treaty or engagement, or of any declaration transmitted by his Majesty's Government to the Court of Vienna explanatory of the views of his Majesty's Government touching such Treaty or engagement, together with the date of the receipt of the said Treaty, and the transmission of the answer thereto on the part of his Majesty's Government, and also of any subsidiary arrangements connected therewith."
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he had no objection to give the substance of the Treaty made at Vienna. He would only protest for himself against the course pursued on this occasion being drawn into a precedent. It was the prerogative of the Crown to withhold such information till it could be communicated in a ratified form, and it was much for the public advantage that generally till that time arrived the substance of the engagements entered into should not be made known. At present, however, as he was extremely anxious to guard against any misrepresentation on this subject, he had no hesitation in agreeing to give the information called for by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. Whitbread,as he understood the noble lord to consent to grant the papers be wished to be laid before the House, supposed he would have no objection to the Address.
motion was then read and agreed to.
The following is a copy of the Paper laid before the House in consequence of Mr. Whitbread's motion.
Substance of Treaties between his Britannic Majesty, and the Emperors of Austria and Russia, and the King of Prussia, respectively; signed at Vienna, on the 25th of March, 1815.
"His Majesty the King of the United
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Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his Majesty the having taken into consideration the consequences which the invasion of France by Napoleon Buonapané, and the actual situation of that kingdom, may produce with respect to the safety of Europe, have resolved in conjunction with his Majesty the, &c. &c. Sec. to apply to that important circumstance, the principles of the Treaty of Chaumont.
"They have consequently resolved to renew, by a solemn Treaty, signed separately by each of the four Powers with each of the three others, the engagement to preserve, against every attack, the order of things so happily established in Europe, and to determine upon the most effectual means of fulfilling that engagement, as well as of giving it all the extension which the present circumstances so imperiously call for.
"Art. 1. The High Contracting Parties above mentioned, solemnly engage to unite the resources of their respective States for the purpose of maintaining entire the conditions of the Treaty of Peace concluded at Paris the 30th of May, 1314; as also, the stipulations determined upon and signed at the Congress of Vienna, with the view to complete the disposition of that Treaty, to preserve them against all infringement, and particularly against the designs of Napoleon Buonaparté. For this purpose they engage, in the spirit of the Declaration of the 13th March last, to direct in common, and with one accord, should the case require it, all their efforts against him, and against alt those who should already have joined his faction, or shall hereafter join it, in order to force him to desist from his projects, and to render him unable to disturb in future the tranquillity of Europe, and the general peace under the protection of which the rights, the liberty, and independence of nations had been recently placed and secured.
"Art. 2. Although the means destined for the attainment of so great and salutary an object ought not to be subjected to limitation, and although the High Contracting Parties are resolved to devote thereto all those means which, in their respective situations, they are enabled to dispose of, they have, nevertheless, agreed to keep constantly in the field, each, a force of 150,000 men complete, including cavalry, in the proportion of at least one-tenth, and a just proportion of artillery,

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not reckoning garrisons; and to employ the same actively and conjointly against the common enemy.
"Art. 3. The High Contracting Parties reciprocally engage, not to lay down their arms but by common consent, nor before the object of the war, designated in the 1st Article of the present Treaty, shall have been attained nor until Buonaparté shall have been rendered absolutely unable to create disturbance, and to renew his attempts for possessing himself of the supreme power in France.
"Art. 4. The present Treaty being principally applicable to the present circumstances, the stipulations of the Treaty of Chaumont, and particularly those contained in the sixteenth Article of the same shall be again in force, as soon as the object actually in view shall have been attained.
"Art. 5. Whatever relates to the command of the Combined Armies, to supplies, &c. shall be regulated by a particular Convention.
"Art. 6. The High Contracting Parties shall be allowed respectively to accredit to the generals commanding their armies, officers, who shall have the liberty of corresponding with their Governments, for the purpose of giving information of military events, and of every thing relating to the operations of the armies.
"Art. 7. The engagements entered into by the present Treaty, having for their object the maintenance of the general peace, the High Contracting Parties agree to invite all the Powers of Europe to accede to the same.
"Art. 8. The present Treaty having no other end in view but to support France, or any other country which may be invaded, against the enterprizes of Buonaparté and his adherents, his Most Christian Majesty shall be specially invited to accede hereunto; and in the event of his Majesty's requiring the forces stipulated in the 2nd Article, to make known what assistance circumstances will allow him to bring forward in furtherance of the object of the present Treaty.
SEPARATE ARTICLE.
"As circumstances might prevent his Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from keeping constantly in the field the number of troops specified in the second Article, it is agreed, that his Britannic Majesty shall have the option, either of furnishing his
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contingent in men, or of paying at the rate of 30 l. sterling per annum for each cavalry soldier, and 20 l. per annum far each infantry soldier, that may be wanting to complete the number stipulated in the second Article.
MEMORANDUM.
"Foreign Office, April 25th, 1815.
"The Treaty of which the substance is above given, has been ordered to be ratified, and it has been notified on the part of the Prince Regent to the High Contacting Parties, that it is his Royal Highness's determination, acting in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, to direct the said ratifications to be exchanged in due course, against similar acts on the part of the respective Powers, under an explanatory Declaration of the following tenor, as to Article eight of the said Treaty:—
DECLARATION.
"The undersigned, on the exchange of the ratifications of the Treaty of the 25th of March last, on the part of his Court, is hereby commanded to declare, that the eighth Article of the said Treaty, wherein his Most Christian Majesty is invited to accede, under certain stipulations, is to be understood as binding the Contracting Parties, upon principles of mutual security, to a common effort against the power of Napoleon Buonaparté, in pursuance of the third Article of the said Treaty; but is not to be understood as binding his Britannic Majesty to prosecute the war with a view of imposing upon France any particular government.
"However solicitous the Prince Regent most be to see his Most Christian Majesty restored to the throne, and however anxious he is to contribute, in conjunction with his Allies, to so auspicious an event, he nevertheless deems himself called upon to make this Declaration, on the exchange of the ratifications, as well in consideration of what is due to his Most Christian Majesty's interests in France, as in conformity to the principles upon which the British Government has invariably regulated its conduct."
[The Treaty was received in London on the 5th instant; the answer thereto was dispatched to Vienna on the 8th. Authority and instructions have also been given to the earl of Clancarty to sign a subsidiary engagement consequent upon the said Treaty.]

CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Bennet,in the absence of his right hon. friend (sir John Newport, who was prevented by illness from attending in his place), rose to move for a call of the House of which his right hon. friend had given notice. He said the present state of Europe, and the great number of important matters which claimed the attention of the House, and particularly the Bill for reviving the Property-tax, against which there had been more petitions than had ever been presented against any measure that was to engage the attention of the House, required that all the members who were not prevented by illness, or other unavoidable misfortunes, should be present. Those numerous petitions, indeed, more than any other cause, rendered this motion the more necessary, because it would thereby enable the people to ascertain which of their representatives attended to their complaints, and which did not attend to them, but in direct opposition to their sentiments supported a measure that had been shown to be so universally odious and obnoxious to the whole mass of the people. He concluded by moving, "That this House be called over on Monday next."
Lord Castlereaghagreed in thinking that in the present state of Europe, it was desirable that there should be the fullest attendance of the House. Adverting to several notices on the Order Book, if he might be permitted in his turn to put a question to an hon. and learned gentleman opposite, he wished to know whether he meant to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, respecting Naples, on Tuesday next; and if he knew whether the motion of his hon. and learned friend respecting Genoa would come on upon Thursday next?
Mr. Hornerassured the noble lord, that he would generally obtain a prompt answer from himself or his friends. His hon. and learned friend (sir James Mackintosh) meant, as he understood, to bring forward his motion on Thursday next; and he himself should bring forward his motion respecting Naples on Tuesday next; and his motion respecting New Orleans the first open day.
Mr. Bennetwished to know in what manner, as to time, it was proposed to carry the Property-tax through the House? He was anxious it should be discussed in a full House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,under existing circumstances, thought the call
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of the House justified,—a full attendance was desirable, on a variety of subjects. With respect to the Property tax, his should not have thought the call necessary solely on account of that measure; but at the same time he thought it proper that the sense of the House should be fully taken on it in one of its stages. He proposed that it should be read a second time that day, committed on Friday, and that the report on the third reading should be made, when the call would take effect.
The motion for the Call of the House was then agreed to.
On the order of the day for the second reading of the Property-tax Bill, sir M. W. Ridley said he opposed the second reading, and would oppose the Bill in every stage. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday.

ALIEN BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a Committee on the Bill being read,
Mr. Bennetwished to make ah observation on the hurried manner in which it was attempted to pass this Bill. The Bill was read a second time on Friday last; and the members did not receive their their copies of the Bill till after that stage. Although he lived near the House, he did not get his copy till Saturday morning. During the whole of the last century, in which there had been two civil wars, and a war with our colonies, no measure of the kind had ever been resorted to, till the time of the French Revolution. He was not one of those who thought it even then necessary; but would any man say that there was any resemblance between the present period and the period in question? It was a ridiculous dread that was entertained, or affected to be entertained by his Majesty's Government, of foreigners in this country. More information was derived from our newspapers respecting our affairs, than from all the spies put together. But the measure vested the Government with the power of sending out such foreigners as might render themselves obnoxious to them, or those persons whom, they wished to favour. It was converted into an engine of the most oppressive tyranny. He had heard of a meeting in Suffolk-street, of a few miserable Italians, assembled to celebrate the prospects which they thought were brightening up for their country, that had been lately dispersed by a familiar of the Alien office. What

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were these unfortunate foreigners guilty of that could warrant their being sent off from the country at a moment's notice? He understood that one of them had held a sort of correspondence with his Majesty's Government as agent of Murat; and it was possible that he might be in possession of some of the correspondence which had lately been published. All sorts of abuses had taken taken place under the Alien Act. Every one had heard of a Lord Chancellor's sending a foreigner out of the country because he conducted himself ill in a lawsuit; foreign clerks had been sent out of the country because they were in love with their masters daughters. It was a system more like the Inquisition of Madrid than any thing else. There were Alien-office familiars going about in every quarter pursuing unfortunate foreigners. Those unfortunate exiles from the Spanish governments of Europe and South America, were in the greatest state of alarm lest they should be hurried out of the country. For these reasons he opposed the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Bathurstsaid, the hon. gentleman had complained that the Bill had not been printed before the second reading. The Bill, as he formerly stated, was almost a copy verbatim et literatim of the former Act; and, therefore, the printing of it had not been so necessary as if it were a new measure. It had, however, in point of fact, been printed before the second reading, though it had not got into what the hon. gentleman might call proper circulation. If the measure were at all proper, be thought it must be felt that it ought to be passed as soon as possible, and it would therefore have been improper to delay the second reading of it till a printed copy could be in the possession of every member. The influx of foreigners into this country was known to have been very great for some time past. Many of these, it was probable, came with hostile views, sent by the present French government. It was for the House to determine whether, under such circumstances, it would be improper to adopt a measure which was first brought forward as applicable to a state of war, the principle of which had been recognized in peace, resorted to a second time when the late war broke out, and again recognized last year in a state of peace. The House would determine, if such an act was not necessary in the present state of things, and if, having called upon the Prince Regent, in their Address,
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to take measures, for strengthening his forces by land and sea, they ought not to arm the Government with those civil powers which might make such exertions more effective. He hoped, therefore, the House would agree to go into the committee.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonsaid, there was a great difference between the present period and that of 1792, because we were then at war with almost all Europe, and now we were in alliance with them alt except France. He objected to granting such extensive powers, which had been abused m the case of Mr. De Berenger and others, and therefore should oppose the going into the committee.
Mr. Addingtonsaid, that he imagined the hon. gentlemen opposite were hardly aware of the immense influx of foreigners within the last few months. No less than 1600 had arrived since the landing of Buonaparté in France was known, and most of them with passports signed by Buonaparté's government. Was there no reasonable ground for apprehension, especially when it was known, that many of these persons had commissions to purchase arms for the adherents of the new government of France? He did not pretend to say, that this measure would enable ministers to discriminate between the innocent and the guilty, but it would do the next best thing—it would give power to detain them until inquiries were made into their characters and conduct. He had some apology to make to an hon. gentleman for having come into the House while he was speaking; and there was part of the hon. gentleman's speech respecting some Italians in Suffolk-street, which he was just concluding, and which he would be obliged to him to repeat.
Mr. Bennetsaid, he wished to know whether it was true, that about eighteen Italians who met in Suffolk-street, among whom was the Chevalier Stocco, the agent of the king of Naples, a person of the name of Petroni, and others, had been arrested by order of Government?
Mr. Addingtonreplied, that he was altogether unacquainted with the circumstance.
The House then went into a Committee, the blanks in the Bill were filled up, and it was ordered that the Report should be brought up to-morrow.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the House

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should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the Navy Estimates, together with the estimates for several miscellaneous services, be referred to the said Committee. The Speaker having left the chair,
Sir George Warrenderrose. He said, he thought it unnecessary for him in bringing forward the Navy Estimates to go into any great length of detail. Any explanation that the Committee might require he would endeavour to afford. The sums expended for the service of the Navy were divided under two heads, the one consisting of expenses connected with ships afloat, the other with the pay of the civil offices and all expenses connected with ships not afloat. A great reduction had been made in the general expenditure of the Navy, by reducing the number of hands, and by placing officers on half-pay. This, however, caused a very considerable excess to be created under the head of half-pay, amounting to 436,396 l. This excess arose from three causes; from the increased number of persons placed on half-pay—from the increased amount of the half-pay itself, and from the extensive naval promotion which had taken place. The House would recollect the plan which had been formed for better rewarding long and meritorious services. The inconveniencies which it was feared would attend it, he had the pleasure to say, had not been experienced; the happiest effects had been found to result from it, and it had given general satisfaction. The mode of rewarding masters mates, and midshipmen, which had been preferred to giving them half-pay, had been found more beneficial to them, while the country was spared such an expense. An arrangement had been made, by which, in time of peace, they would all have been employed; and, in addition to this, an extensive promotion to the rank of lieutenant had taken place from among the masters-mates and midshipmen. This promotion, much to the honour of the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty, had been made in the best possible way; as those who had been promoted were selected on no grounds whatever but those of merit and service. Having briefly explained the causes of the excess which appeared for half-pay, he thought it unnecessary to enlarge on the subject, as the House had always been ready to bear testimony to the distinguished merit of those who were benefitted by it; and large as the sum was, he
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felt confident no charge would be more cheerfully voted than that which was intended to provide for the comfort of those whose gallant exertions had borne us triumphantly through a long and arduous war. The next great head of expenditure in these estimates, was for building and repairing ships; the extensive naval war in which we had been engaged, had made it necessary, at the close of the contest, to have great naval repairs immediately commenced. This, with a view to public economy, it was found proper to commence without loss of time. This had caused a considerable expense; but a great reduction, to the amount of 236,000 l. had been effected by the arrangements made with respect to the King's-yards. He congratulated the Committee on these arrangements, which would in future furnish the country with an adequate supply of large ships. It was unnecessary for him to speak of the public works, which had already been brought before the House. He should not enter on these, unless information were called for. Great sums had been thus expended, and in particular on the Breakwater at Plymouth Sound, which had cost 250,000 l. These expenses, however, he trusted would be found to have been wisely incurred, and the great work he had just mentioned he had every reason to hope would answer the purpose for which it was to be constructed. The estimates he had explained, made together 3,405,400 l. being 200,000 l. less than the corresponding estimates of last year. He had to propose an additional vote for for 20,000 men. Last year 70,000 men were voted for the navy, to these, in the present instance, he, as he had already stated, meant to call for an addition of 20,000 men. The total expense of the navy from the papers produced last year, had been 17,265,000 l. The estimates before the House in the present year made it 12,526,778 l. giving a difference of 4,739,000 l. He was happy to say the navy was in as good a state as it had been in at any period of the war. It was in such a state of efficiency, that should the service of the country require a very large fleet, it could almost immediately be brought forward. It might be satisfactory, to the Committee to learn, that all the public ship-building had been transferred from the merchants to the King's yards, from which a great future saving might be anticipated. He concluded, by moving for a supply for 25,000 men (including

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5,000 royal marines), for ten lunar months.
Sir M. W. Ridleywished to put a few questions relative to some of the items in these accounts: for instance one of 5,000 l. for parish duties, lamps, and other expenditures for public use; another was 14,000 l. for disbursements of a similar description; and a third of 10,000 l. There were other sweeping sums for the navy departments at Deptford and Portsmouth, upon which some explanation, beyond stating the round sums, was due. Whilst looking to unexplained large points, he could not but lament a reduction in one which ought to be liberally maintained—he meant the superannuated or compassionate list. With reference to public works, he could not overlook the uncertain mode in which estimates were inserted; several of these were rated at uncertain sums. In proof of this, he adduced the sums expended upon Plymouth chapel; during the present year 5,400 l. was voted for that purpose. The works thus indefinitely marked, amounted to 229,000 l., 38,000 l. of which had been thus expended. He had no doubt that the public service might require such appropriations; he only complained of the loose way in which they were stated.
Sir G. Warrenderobserved, that the preparation of distinct general estimates had only been the practice since many public works had been commenced. As to the Dock-yard items, they were more immediately within the department of his hon. friend, the Secretary to the Admiralty, who would doubtless give the necessary explanation.
Mr. Gordonsolicited an explanation of the sums of 1,000 l. 500 l. &c. for Sheerness, and other contingencies; also 5,000 l. for parish duties, lamps, &c. There was another expense of 500 l. for the Inspector of Telegraphs; now this salary, he thought; should have expired with the duty for which it was given, for the Telegraph service must have ceased during the last year. The 526,000 l. credit for old stores recalled to his recollection the circum stance that great mismanagement prevailed in the mode of disposing of this species of public property: this ought to be inquired into, and remedied.
Mr. Crokerreplied, that as to the 5,000 l. for small items, the estimate was taken from the details of the last year, and exposed to two checks, which of course controlled it properly. It was reduced to the lowest possible sum, and, considering its
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nature, he was only surprised that it was not more. To meet some of these roundlystated sums, according to Mr. Bankes's Sill, the fees of several offices were in art applied, and there were two audits for their regular examination. The amount of this branch was certainly smaller than it had been last year. The telegraph estimate stood over since last December, and was for actual service; the reason of its being deferred was, that it should have the benefit of discussion with the other tarts of the public expenditure. The telegraphs had since been pulled down, but they were now in active preparation or renewal. The old stores disposal was n other hands than his for execution. He could only answer, that full and ample publicity was given before each sale, and it was competent for any person who had my complaint to make of this matter, to state such complaint to the Navy Board or the Admiralty. For his own part, he lever heard that any malversation had been complained of.
Sir M. W. Ridley,though glad to hear of good regulations, thought there could be no objection on the other side, to produce or obtain general estimates of the public works in hand.
Mr. W. Smiththought the income of 600 l. per annum given to the paymaster of widows pensions, seemed more like a provision for the person than the proper, pay of the office. He felt this the more, when he compared it with the small income of the Astronomer-royal, a person who must stand high in point of education and science, and who must hold an extensive correspondence in every quarter of Europe: his salary was but 292 l. per ann. and 100 l. for an assistant. To such an office he would be glad so see an augmentation. The chaplain-general of the fleet had 500 l.: to this he certainly did not object. He complained of the expense of the naval hospital at Yarmouth, which had cost 100,000 l., besides 20,000 l. for building an officer's house near it. The hospital was constructed to hold 500 patients, yet had never at one time—not even when the patients of other hospitals near had been carried to it, while they were being repaired—had more than 150 in it. The regular average was considerably under 100; he believed about 70. He did not know where the blame lay, but it appeared to him the sums laid out upon that building, were much greater than the advantages to be expected from it; and for

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those actually derived from it, he thought the public paid ten to one more than they ought, and that the expense of the officer's house might have secured the whole of the benefits obtained from this expensive establishment to the navy.
Mr. Crokerexplained. He said the situation of paymaster of widows pensions was first regulated under a charter of George the 2nd. A great deal of trouble was involved in the duties annexed to it; for the parties were paid quarterly, and in their several places of residence. An alteration had lately been made in this office, and the present remuneration was agreed upon, in lieu of the emolument arising to the paymaster from the use of the public money which he occasionally held, and which left him a greater profit than his present income. The sum in the estimates was paid to the Astronomer-royal for a nautical almanack, and formed but a small part of his emoluments. The hospital at Yarmouth, if not much used now, before the expedition to Copenhagen, while the Dutch fleet was strong, and. France had a formidable naval establishment at Antwerp, at that time as the eyes of Great Britain were anxiously fixed on the north, was likely to be of great importance. Had that state of things continued, it was likely that hospital would have caused a great saving not merely of money but of human life; and any expense in forming this establishment was well incurred, to avoid having recourse to those wretched places formerly in use,—he meant the temporary hospitals.
Mr. Gordonwould wish to know whether there was any diminution in the expenses of the inspection of telegraphs? There were twenty clerks employed in time of war, and surely so many, could not be necessary in time of peace.
Mr. Bennetwished to know what was done to compensate captain Usher, or whether there was any measure in progress to do him justice.
Sir Charles Polesaid, that captain Usher was an officer of the highest merit, and that his services and his wounds deserved from his country the greatest attention.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the business with regard to captain Usher was in a state of progress.
Mr. W. Smithtook notice of the sum of 602 l. paid to captain King, for carrying marshal Blucher, &c. &c. from Dover to Calais. He had heard there was a mode of average struck for the remuneration of
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officers so employed, and that the office was sometimes a good one, and at other times the reverse. Now, upon inquiry, he found that the et ceteras in this case were no less personages than the duchess of Oldenburgh, the prince royal of Wirtemberg, prince Hardenberg, the Russian and Prussian ambassadors, generals Bulow, and Yorck, with their several suites.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose to do justice to the feelings of captain King, who would be the last man in the service to take money for a duty which he did not perform, or to make a demand which was not strictly and honourably correct. Now, the fact was, that instead of his having made one trip from Dover to Calais with those illustrious personages, he had made four or five, and was actually out of pocket several hundred pounds, over and above what he had been allowed for that duty.
Mr. Crokersaid, that the circumstance of the item having been annexed to the name of marshal Blucher alone, might have arisen from his name being first on the list in the warrant, and that it was thought unnecessary, to insert the whole.
Mr. E. Wardsaid, that as to the emoluments of the Astronomer-royal, they were derived from three, sources—from the Admiralty to the amount mentioned in the estimate, from the Ordnance the sum paid was 100 l. with coals and candles, and the Royal Society paid about as much; so that, in all, the salary amounted to 7 or 800 l. a year, together with Flamstead House.
Mr. Giddysaid, that the salary of the, Astronomer-royal had very properly been increased since the death of Dr. Maskelyne, who had a large private fortune; and he thought a still greater increase would be advisable. If the establishment at Flamstead-house was increased, so as to form in some sort a school of astronomy, the expense would be amply repaid by the beneficial influence of such a measure upon astronomical science, as far as it was applicable to naval purposes.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the minuteness of the estimates was truly laudable, and was carried to such an extent that 4l. was inserted as the expense of catching rats—[A laugh]. He was not surprised at this item; but from the multitude of 'rats' in that department, he had expected to have found another item of 40 k. for burying those which had been taken. But, passing over to larger matters, he wished to point the attention of the Secretary, of the Admiralty, to the notorious fact,

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that the improvements which to a wonderful extent had been made in all the private concerns of the country, were so slow in finding their way into the public establishments, and especially the dock-yards. He particularly noticed the making of ropes, the improvement in which, he said, was known and practised every where outside of the dock-yards, but was not at all attended to within. It was a disgrace to this nation that improvements which were so generally known should not be adopted in the dock-yards, where they were perhaps more than in any other place necessary. The Admiralty were in full force on the opposite side of the House, and he trusted they would explain away this strange neglect. In the same place, and almost in the same spot, at Portsmouth, where Mr. Brunell's improvements were carrying on—improvements that, two or three centuries ago, would have had their ingenious authors hanged for witchcraft—trucks were to be seen in a public department that would disgrace one of those. American tribes whose boundaries were so lately the cause of contention. He trusted such imperfections would be answered to the public. He hoped the attention of the Admiralty would be turned to this subject, and that he might have the pleasure of witnessing the beneficial consequences of his suggestion.
Sir George Warrendersaid, that he could not avoid noticing the very pointed allusion of the hon. gentleman to him, in his observation on the item for killing rats. He should be always ready to meet the hon. gentleman, not only in that House, but on any other ground.
Mr. W. Smithrose to order. The hon. baronet must surely feel that he was wholly unjustified in making any personal allusion to his hon. friend, who was merely discharging a public duty, in the inquiries which he had made.
Mr. Whitbreadwas sorry his hon. friend had taken the trouble of explaining his conduct, as he did not think it wanted any explanation. He did not think anything the hon. baronet had said was disorderly, and would wish he had finished his observations. He did not see what relationship the killing of rats had to the hon. baronet. He was sure he had not intended any thing offensive to any gentleman in what he had said on the subject.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, that as the hon. gentleman had not intended any thing of-
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fensive to him, he of course must be satisfied. He said, there would be no time lost in taking the improvements which the hon. gentleman had mentioned into consideration. The first lord of the Admiralty had made personal visits to the dock-yards for the sake of consulting the different officers on the propriety of alterations in the present system.
Mr. Whitbreadhoped they should see the fruits of those visits, though he was aware the greatest obstacle existed to the introduction of improvements, on account of the hostile disposition towards novelties on the part of the old stagers, if they might be called so, of the dock-yards. This opposition was remarkable in the case of the stone basin at Portsmouth, of which the advantage was now universally acknowledged. He was glad to find the hon. baronet restored to good-humour. He did not know there was any more connexion between him and rats, than between him and cats—[A laugh.]
Mr. Ponsonby, in a vein of pleasantry, observed, that he was not quite satisfied as to this affair of the rats; for in the same page in which 4l. was charged for the extirpation of these animals, he saw 2l. 2s. expended upon the keeping of cats. Now, if the latter charge were correct, the former was objectionable, for surely the cats ought to have destroyed the rats, without the additional expense incurred in the returns. Why, therefore, should it not to be explained?
Mr. Crokerreplied, that the cats were kept in a different yard from that occupied by the rats. But quitting that weighty consideration, and coming to one perhaps as important, he wished to defend the first lord of the Admiralty from any indisposition towards the introduction of machinery into the public works. Among the workmen it was first necessary to explode vulgar prejudices, before this improvement could be made sufficiently operative. This had, however, been in a great degree effected, particularly in the sawing branches of work. A basin was in progress at Sheerness, similar to that of Portsmouth, and two steam-engines were in forwardness. He hoped, in the course of next year, these would be more general, and when their effects were fully visible, that they would be introduced by degrees into the great yards.
Mr. Forbessuggested, that a great improvement in the manufacture of cables could be introduced. Though not adopt-

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ed at the public yards, it was well known in the private ones. He himself, in India, had experienced its preference.
Admiral Hope did not approve the plan alluded to.
Mr. Whitbreadnoticed the great superiority of Huddart's cables, which he had heard naval men say they would sooner trust their lives to, than to the King's-yard cables.
Admiral Hopetestified his experience of the goodness of the King's cables. Manual labour might be diminished; but every new plan might not be executed so fast in the King's as in the merchants' yards.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that the advantage in the difference between a machine and manual labour was great. The machine was never drunk, never went off to visit a friend, never was idle when wanted, and always made the same thing in the same way. It was not exposed to the difference arising from various hands. Such was the advantage in Huddart's invention. The anchor forges in the dock-yards, he was convinced, might be improved, and that it might be found unnecessary for a man's hand to wield a hammer. Machinery might effect this, and every blow given would be the same, and money and human labour saved. In Sweden the hammer was worked by water. The steam-engine was applicable to all such purposes. Mr. Brunell or Mr. Maltby would be very able to do what was wanted as well as in the present system of the smitheries.
Sir Joseph Yorkeapproved of the mode in practice for making ropes.
Captain Pellewsaid, he had procured one of the other cables in China, which he found unserviceable.
Mr. Forbesrepeated his own experience of their superior value.
Mr. Crokersaid, that as soon as they could be exempted from the liability to snap, which they possessed, he hoped they would generally be made use of in the navy.
Mr. Whitbreadasked, whether it was in contemplation to give the captains of men of war chronometers, which, he said, would be of great use in long voyages.
Sir J. Yorkesaid, that that subject was under the contemplation of the board of Admiralty.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
On the second Resolution, "That 355,000 l. be granted to his Majesty for wages for the said 20,000 men, for ten
[812
lunar months, commencing the 1st April 1815, at 1l. 15 s. 6d. per man per month,
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that as an increased number of seamen had been voted, it was a proper occasion to remark, that complaints had been made of the very inadequate manner in which the navy had been manned during the last American war. He hoped in future the Admiralty would proportion the number of ships to the number of good seamen they could procure, so that we might meet the Americans, if a war unfortunately broke out again with that people.
Admiral Hopesaid, it was impossible that we could man a navy of 70 or 80 sail as well as five or six frigates were manned by the Americans. If the number of our ships were as small, we could man them four times over equally well. Our ships had always been found to be better manned than the French, and as well manned as a large fleet could be. The hon. admiral expressed his confidence that the best seamen would be found to come forward with alacrity to serve their country, secured as they were of reward for their services from the liberal measures which had been adopted for that purpose, especially with regard to the institutions at Greenwich and Chatham.
Mr. Forbesalluded to the case of masters' mates and midshipmen, which he conceived to be one of extreme hardship, deserving the attention of the House; and observed, that he would, on some future occasion, notice it more particularly.
Admiral Hopestated, that it was the intention of the lords of the Admiralty to keep afloat all those young men who had served during the war, as far as it was possible; and for that purpose a double proportion of inferior officers was to be kept up. He pronounced a warm eulogium on the conduct of the British navy, during which the gallant admiral was loudly and repeatedly cheered.
Mr. Whitbreadwas glad that an opportunity had occurred for the gallant admiral's paying a tribute to the petty officers of the navy. Nothing could be more grateful to them, than to know that their services had been duly appreciated. He had heard, however, that there were instances in which ships had been sent to sea without their complements: and in one case, a gallant admiral had actually weighed his men, and sent up the account to the Admiralty, that they might know the state of his crew.
Mr. Crokerdid not deny but that at the latter period of the war many of the seamen were of a very inferior kind, but asserted positively that no ship ever was sent to a foreign station without having her complement of men.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that as the hon. Secretary had spoken with such confidence, he should refer to the officers from whom he had received his information upon this subject, and take occasion to state the result to the House.
Admiral Hope,in corroboration of what fell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, observed, that the standing order was, not to suffer any ship to leave the harbour without her due complement.
Mr. Forbesexpressed an apprehension that the claims of the midshipmen had not been sufficiently attended to, and therefore he should feel it his duty to bring the subject before the House.
Sir Joseph Yorkestated, that the Admiralty had done much for the meritorious class of officers alluded to by the hon. gentleman, but it had not yet done all that was intended. With regard however to what was urged on the score of length of service, merely as a claim to promotion, he had to observe, that several midshipmen had completed perhaps ten years of service in a French prison, without having seen two years previous service on board; and would any naval officer consider such persons qualified to perform the duties of a lieutenancy?
Lord Nugentsaid, he was informed that among our squadron oft the Scheldt in the course of the late war, two sail of the line wanted 130 men each of their full complement, and that the ship of commodore Owen was equally defective.
Mr. Roseexpressed a hope that the hon. gentleman would not persist in his motion with respect to the midshipmen, as the only effect of such a motion would be to render that deserving class discontented. He had no doubt that the claims of those officers, in whose favour he felt a lively interest, would be duly attended to. A great number of them indeed had already been promoted, and such as were not promoted were to be maintained afloat, so that at all events such meritorious persons should not be turned adrift.
Mr. R. Ward,to show the impartiality of the Admiralty Board, cited a case in which he had applied to the first lord in favour of a midshipman, who was a relation of his own; but his application was
[814
refused on this ground, that others who had a prior claim from long service were not yet promoted.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that it had been much complained of, that while military officers in an enemy's prison were allowed the discount which, from difference of exchange, they were obliged to pay, the same allowance was refused to naval officers in the same situation. He could not conceive how such a distinction could be tolerated upon any principle of equity. He recollected that when a motion was brought forward by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Bennet), to place the officers of both departments on the same footing, when on foreign service, that motion was resisted upon this ground, that naval officers had opportunities of obtaining prize-money, from which military officers were excluded; but no such ground could apply, where neither were in actual service, when both were in a prison. He begged, therefore, to call the attention of the Admiralty to this subject, and trusted that the naval lords would take measures to have justice done to their brethren.
Mr. Crokersaid, he had the satisfaction to state, that the moment the case alluded to by the hon. gentleman was represented to the first lord of the Admiralty, measures were taken to place naval officers on the same footing with the officers of the army."
The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution, "That 907,502 l. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying half-pay, superannuations, allowances, and pensions to officers of his Majesty's Navy and Royal Marines, their widows and relatives, for the year 1815,"
Mr. Ponsonbytook occasion to panegyrise the justice and policy which dictated an advance of the half-pay of naval officers in 1806; observing, that he should have been better pleased if that advance had gone farther, and adding, that he should feel it his duty, on an early occasion, to make a proposition to the House upon this subject.
This Resolution, together with the remaining ones, were agreed to without opposition.

EMIGRANTS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "That 60,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, to enable him to grant relief to such of the suffering clergy and laity of France, Toulonese, and Corsican emigrants, Saint Domingo sufferers, and Dutch naval officers, who may here-

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tofore have received allowances from his Majesty, and who may not have been enabled to return to their own countries in the course of the present year, or who, from services performed, or losses sustained in the British service, may have special claims upon his Majesty's justice or liberality." He said, that of this sum 36,000 l. was to have been paid by the King of France, but recent occurrences had prevented the performance of that engagement. He thought several of those persons had a peculiar claim on England, as they had been employed by our Government, and had wasted their property in our service.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that however ungracious it might seem to make any objection to a motion of this nature, he thought it necessary upon such a motion to suggest the propriety of considering the distresses and burthens of our own people, and to impress upon his Majesty's ministers that no French emigrants capable of serving their King in his present emergency, should be encouraged to withdraw from him by the prospect of a provision from this country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerassured the committee, that care would be taken to provide against any such encouragement as the hon. baronet had stated. The fact, however, was, that it was not proposed to provide for any persons from this fund but such as from old age and infirmity were unable to afford any active support to their Sovereign in his present state.
Mr. Whitbreadasked, whether the proposed vote was in addition to the 15,000 l. already voted?
The Chancellor of the Exchequeranswered in the affirmative, adding that out of the 15,000 l. alluded to, 8,000 l. had been granted as a final compensation to some emigrants on quitting the country.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that as it had been stated that 1600 emigrants had lately come into the country, he hoped it was not intended by putting them on the Alien list to make those emigrants an additional burthen upon us; for if so, the powers of the Alien Act might be abused, by keeping some foreigners in the country, as they had been heretofore abused by sending other foreigners out of it. The hon. member asked, whether in the course of their government the Bourbons had, according to promise, paid any sum to our Government, as a compensation for the
[816
advances made to the emigrants, and whether any of the persons finally compensated, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, had again returned to this country?
The Chancellor of the Exchequeranswered, that none of them so compensated had again returned.
The Resolution was agreed to.—On a Resolution being proposed for a grant of 6,000 l. as a final compensation to the commissioners for examining and ascertaining the boundaries of Windsor forest,
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that he understood there was another commission which had been appointed to survey the royal parks and forests, of which a noble lord (Yarmouth), and Mr. Bicknell, solicitor to the Admiralty and the Prince Regent, were the commissioners. He wished to know who appointed those commissioners, or what authority they had to act?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that the grant now proposed was the regular compensations to commissioners appointed under an Act of Parliament passed several years ago, for three years services. As to the other commission, it had been laid before the Crown lawyers, to give their opinion as to its validity.
On the motion, "That 21,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the extra charge for contingencies of the three Secretaries of State, for the year 1815,"
Mr. Tierneysaid, he thought there ought to be a more detailed account set forth. He did not mean to say that the sum was too large; but he thought the House ought to be informed of the particulars for which it was given.
Mr. Arbuthnotsignified his readiness, upon brnging up the report, to lay the required information upon the table.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he thought the Secretaries of State were not sufficiently paid, and that the public would be better satisfied if their salaries were increased, instead of having to come to Parliament for those contingencies.
Mr. Arbuthnotrepelled the idea that any part of those contingencies was appropriated to the personal uses of the Secretaries of State. They were expended in coals, candles, stationery, and other articles for their offices.
Sir M. W. Ridleyexplained, and said that he had no intention of insinuating any thing like what the right, hon. gentleman seemed to apprehend.
Mr. Whitbreadinquired, whether it was intended to bring forward, on the present evening, the vote of 9,000 l. to enable the commissioners to purchase an estate for the family of the late lord Nelson?
Mr. Lushingtonanswered, that the resolution alluded to would not be brought forward until Wednesday next.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, it was necessary to know precisely when the vote would be proposed, since strong objections existed against it. An estate, it appeared, which the present lord Nelson, and several of the commissioners, considered a very eligible one, was offered for a sum which the original vote of Parliament would have covered, and the individual who had the disposal of that estate, conceived that a contract for its purchase had been entered into with him.
Mr. Rosesaid, that when the vote came regularly before the House, he should be prepared to state, what he conceived to be satisfactory grounds for the additional aid of 9,000 l. deemed necessary for the purchase of a proper estate. He did not think he was now called on to state the reasons which imposed the necessity of applying to Parliament for this grant.
Mr. Whitbread.—Certainly not. All I wish for is, that when the vote is proposed, satisfactory grounds may be staled for the additional grant.
The House then resumed.