Commons Sitting of 13 May 1814

PETITION OF MR. MALLISON.
Sir Francis Burdett presented a Petition from William Henry Mallison, of Saint Michael's Alley, Cornhill; setting forth, "that it is with the highest gratification the petitioner learns a committee is appointed to investigate a mode of giving relief to shipwrecked mariners and vessels in distress, so many thousands perishing annually on the coasts of these islands, leaving their wives and children too frequently victims to want and misery; and that the petitioner having formed a plan for this laudable intention, founded on the invention the petitioner calls "The Seaman's Friend," which in June 1811 was unanimously acknowledged adequate to this great purpose by the committee then appointed by the House, he humbly presumes to request his proposed mode of giving relief to shipwrecked mariners, which will be found as simple as certain, may be investigated, in order that its merits and practicability may be ascertained."
Ordered to lie on the table.

CONVOY BILL.
The House having resolved into a committee on the Convoy Bill.
Mr. Canningrose to state some facts, of which he had been apprised by his constituents. Since the period at which the Admiralty had put an end to the custom of allowing single ships, properly armed, to run to and from the West Indies, it had been expected that convoys would be more frequent; on the contrary, however, their number had greatly diminished. An application had been made for a convoy from the West Indies in February last, at which period there were 150 vessels ready with cargoes, to the value of three millions sterling. They had, however been detained, and the number of vessels was now
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probably increased to 400. The arrival of so many ships at one moment, was productive of great inconvenience in the market. The suggestion of some of his constituents was that ships properly armed (that arming to be regulated by parliament) should be allowed to sail without convoy, or that the Admiralty should appoint convoys more frequently.
Mr. Rosedeprecated the introduction of any thing into the Bill, which might give to the Americans information calculated to facilitate their privateering expeditions against our trade.
Mr. Crokerexpressed his persuasion, that the representation which had been made by his hon. friend (Mr. Canning) arose out of a misconception. Before the war with America, it had been sufficient to protect the trade in the Channel, no danger being to apprehended in America and the West Indies. Licences, therefore, to go north about were, at that period, granted by the Admiralty, with perfect family. On the breaking out of the American war, however, the case was changed. The American merchant ships were almost universally converted into privateers. The seas swarmed with thousands of them. Vessels then running from Liverpool, and the other western ports, merely ran to fall into the jaws of the enemy. Feeling this, the Admiralty refused to grant licenses; the only tendency of which was, the capture of the vessels to which they were granted. On the very night of the arrival of the American declaration of war, the revocation of all licences which had been granted was published in the Gazette. During half the year, it was impossible to blockade the American ports; and during the other ball, the blockade was necessarily very imperfect. The only hope, therefore, of keeping the American privateers within their ports, was, to withhold from them the expectation of a prey. The admiralty, therefore, established regular convoys; and the gentlemen interested in the West India trade having been invited to meet and made such arrangements as would suit their interest, and at the same time would not be incompatible with the public service, it was settled, that four convoys should sail annually from Spit-head, and four from Cork, for the West Indies, and that they should be placed within a fortnight to one another; so that the vessels who were accidentally too late for the one, might yet contrive to catch

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the other. If it were asked, why the number of convoys was not greater, the answered would be, that the Admiralty (as he had before observed), not wishing to expose our commerce to any risk from the Americans, thought it wise to allow fewer convoys, but to make them all sate. Each convoy therefore equalled in force the whole American navy; the consequence of which was, that not a single merchant-ship had been taken which sailed under convoy, and that no convoy had been at all disturbed, except by weather. For this purpose, however, it because necessary to appoint for each convoy a line of battle ship, a frigate, and several sloops. Making allowance for several spare ships necessary to supply accidental deficiencies, the single service, therefore, of convoys to the West Indies required about 10 line of battle ships, 10 frigates, and from 20 to 30 sloops of war. The return of the convoys from the West Indies was equally simple and clear. They sailed at certain periods fixed by the trade. The Admiralty had wished those periods to be unalterably fixed; but the trade requesting that this might not be the case, our admiral on the West India station had orders to appoint a certain day for the sailing of the convoy, but to accelerate or retard its departure at the pleasure of the trade. It was undoubtedly true, as had been stated by his hon. friend, that one of these convoys had been detained. No letters had yet been received at the Admiralty, to account for his circumstance; but he had no doubt that when they did arrive the delay would be satisfactorily explained. As to the permission to vessels armed according to act of parliament to run, the consequence would be, that as soon as the Americans became aware of the force of those vessels, they would fit out others of larger force to incept them. The stoutest of our merchant vessels could hardly carry more than 20 guns and 50 men. Now, many of the American privateers, it was well known, carried 24 or 20 guns and 150 men. Thus inferior, the loss of our single vessels would be almost certain. It would be better that they should not be armed at all, for they would then be better able to run away. If any particular portion of the seas were to be exempted from the operation of the Convoy Act, the only consequence would be, that the Americans would flock thither—it would be their preserve. Such a step, however had been taken in circumstances
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in which it was safe to take it. Immediately on the receipt of the Convention between Great Britain and Finance, orders were issued to suspend the operation of the Convoy Act, in the whole of the Mediterranean. It would also be suspended in the Baltic, were it not that the trade, with a view to insurance, wished it not to be so. But for that wish, it would be suspended in the Baltic, as long as there were no American privateers in that sea. It was undeniably the interest of the Admiralty to grant licences for running ships, instead of appointing convoys, for in the latter case they incurred a responsibility, from which in the former they were exempt; but their object invariably was, to adopt such measures on the subject as were best calculated to secure the commerce of the country.
Mr. Canning, in reply, said, he had no doubt but the Admiralty would make the business as little onerous as possible, and therefore he would not at present further trespass on the time of the House.
Mr. Alderman Atkinswas extremely averse from allowing the Admiralty to have the direction of the commerce of the country. Another hardship was, that the Admiralty should have power to compel the merchants to give bonds; but, with the explanation given, he would not oppose the further progress of the Bill.
Mr. Canningwas of opinion, that if a clause was introduced to empower the Admiralty to issue a public notice of the licences to be given, and the places to which the ships were to go, it would remove many of the complaints which had been enumerated.
Mr. Crokersaid, he was afraid much danger would arise from such a regulation, as notice would thereby be given to the American cruisers, where the ships to be licensed would be bound to. He was sorry to say, that there were persons in this country, and not a few of them, who were so lost to all sense of the amor patriœ, and to every principle of honour and honesty, as to convey on every occasion the speediest and most correct information with respect to the destination of every ship sailing with a license, which they contrived by some means or other to find out. It was not long ago that an American privateer had received such accurate information on this head, that she lay in wait for a particular ship by name in such a latitude as to be almost certain of falling in with her by a certain day. It so happened,

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however, that she was taken by one of our frigates the day before; and the very next day our frigate, and the American cruiser, her prize, passed this very ship, which would have been captured by the American, had she not been antecedently deprived of the means of doing us this mischief.
Mr. Rosesaid, he had no doubt but every accommodation would be given by the Admiralty to the mercantile interests.
Mr. Marryattsaid, licenses had been given by the Admiralty to several ships to go to Archangel; and the consequences were, that the friends of the American curisers had so effectually exerted their abilities in giving them information, that he saw no less than 18 of them on Lloyd's books, one morning, as prizes to the American privateers. He therefore thought the licenses, could not be kept too secret.
After a few words from general Gascoyne, the House was resumed, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.

CATHOLIC BOARD
Mr. Knox, seeing the right hon. Secretary for Ireland in his place, observed, that he was, no doubt, well acquainted with the late proceedings of the Catholic Board. It was his opinion, that government ought to take every step to put down an evil which excited alarm in the minds of every well wisher to the prosperity of Ireland; and he wished to know what it was the intention of government to do in this business?
Mr. Peelsaid, the subject was at present under the consideration of the executive power; but he did not feel that he could at present give any answer.
Mr. Knoxsaid, a large proportion of the Protestant population of Ireland were deeply interested in this matter.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The House having formed itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. W. Dundasrose, in pursuance of notice, to move the different estimates for the naval service of the current year. It would be unnecessary for him to enter minutely into this subject, as the estimates had been printed several weeks, and were in the hands of the members. If any gentleman, however, wished for explanation on any particular branch, he should be happy to afford it. The estimates consisted of the Ordinary, the Extraordinary, and Transport Service. The Ordinary Service was divided into three branches: 1st. Pay—2d. Half-pay.
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[An increase was proposed in this branch, but it was impossible yet to say to what extent.] The 3d head was, the estimate of Superannuation. The next was the Extraordinary Service; no alteration would take place in this service. With respect to the estimates of the Repairs of Ships of War, a great deal would be necessary to fit them for the ordinary; for it laid up unrepaired they would go to ruin. He next came to the head of Expences of New Works required; but the committee would not thank him to go through the details of the works now. A large sum of above 1,600,000 l. was stated for Army Provisions, &c. He proposed a reduction of one-half, that is 800,000 l. One article the Sick and Wounded, was considerably over-stated, but he could not yet say to what extent. It would depend on the number of those who arrived sick from foreign service. One large statement was 1,200,000 l. for Prisoners of War. A hope would naturally be entertained of a large reduction on this head; but the accounts were kept from October one year to October next year; so that the saving would only be from the period of the release to October. The reduction would be about 260,000 l. The reduction would be about 260,000 l. In December last there were voted 12 millions for Wear and Tear. A reduction was here proposed of 2 millions. The total deduction from the estimates of the current year would be between three and four millions. The house had voted 140,000 seamen. It must be gratifying to all to learn the pitch of power to which the British navy had arrived. It had never perhaps been equalled, and certainly never exceeded. It was not this or that board which had raised the navy to this ascendancy, but the liberal support of parliament and the country at large. We had a naval power equal to check the combined fleets of the world, and even capable of overwhelming them. It consisted of above 1,000 vessels. What our seaman were, the voice of Europe would tell. They had been engaged in blockade for years, a dull monotonous service, which they had borne without murmuring or repining. A grateful country must hail the return of their brave defenders. They had earned the gratitude of that country by many a toilsome, many a stormy day.
The items were then moved and agreed to in the committee.
Mr. Tierneyinquired whether, upon the whole estimates, there was an exceeding

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above, or a diminution under, those of last year?
Mr. Crokerreplied, that on the Extraordinary Estimates there was a diminution of nearly 700,000 l. as compared with the last year. In the whole, there was a reduction of nearly three millions in consequence of recent events. Under the head containing all the establishments, such as the Superannuation and Half-pay Lists, there was necessarily an increase of 60,000 l. The head, Army Provisions, which was not a naval service, but a sum charged for the conveyance of troops, there was an augmentation of 500,000 l. and the charge for the Transport Service was increased 700,000 l.; but both these items would amount to nothing in future years, excepting the next, when heavy expences must be incurred for bringing home our armies from various situations.
Mr. Lockhartinquired, whether it was meant to make an addition to the tickets of out-pensioners at Greenwich Hospital?
Mr. Crokerassured the House, that the largest possible allowance should be made; but he could not give a more precise answer. He stated, that the Widows' Pensions, originally established by queen Caroline, would be augmented in consequence of new regulations.

REPORT ON THE PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON.
Mr. Brogdenreported from the committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to take into consideration the Prince Regent's most gracious Message of Tuesday last, relating to the Duke of Wellington, the Resolutions which they had directed him to report to the House; and the same were read, as Follow:
"1. That the annual sum of 13,000 l. net, be granted to his Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, to enable his Majesty to grant the said annuity to Field Marshal his grace the Duke of Wellington, and the heirs male of his body respectively who may succeed to the title of Duke of Wellington, in order to support the dignity of the dukedom of Wellington. 2. That it shall be lawful for the Lord High Treasurer, or the Commissioners of the Treasury in Great Britain for the time being; upon application of the said duke, or any of his successors, to advance out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, in lieu of the said annuity, any sum or sums of money not exceeding in the whole the sum of 400,000 l. for the
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purpose of enabling the said duke, or his successors dukes of Wellington, with the approbation of the said Lords Commissioners, to purchase lands, tenements, and her editaments, to be settled to the use of the said duke and his successors, and to support the dignity of the dukedom of Wellington; and, from the time when such sum of 400,000 l. or any portion thereof, may be issued, the whole of the said annuity, or part proportionate to the principal sum so issued, shall cease and determine."
Mr. Ward, expressing his concurrence in this grant, was anxious that it should be laid out in landed property, as the most suitable to the exalted rank of the illustrious officer who was the object of the public gratitude. He hoped, that no part of the sum would be laid out in the erection of a building; but that some domain might be found already fit for the purpose. He inquired what steps had been taken to expend the 90,000 l. voted for the family of lord Nelson on landed property? As to the present question, he feared that if the estate to be purchased was not already provided with a mansion fit for the reception of the duke of Wellington, more than the sum now voted, 400,000 l. would be necessary for the erection of an edifice suited to such a purpose. If he were not mistaken, even in the time of queen Anne, Blenheim had Cost nearly 500,000 l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed with the hon. gentleman, that the most desirable mode certainly would be to have the grant raid but in landed property. With respect to the last grant, no pains had been spared by the commissioners to find a suitable estate; but such were the difficulties they had met with, that it had been thought the family themselves had better be employed as the agents to find some proper place to be disposed of. He thought it probable, that a mansion might be got without the expence of building. It seemed to be the wish, that the present grant should be final; and therefore there would be an inconvenience in any subsequent arrangement. The hon. gentleman, however, was wrong in the amount of the expence of Blenheim House. He had always understood it cost only 200,000 l.
Mr. Wardobserved, that,, according to his recollection, the precise sum which Sarah duchess of Marlborough stated to have been expended upon Blenheim, was 470,000 l.
Mr. Rosesaid, it appeared from the memoirs

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of the duchess of Marlborough, that 100,000 l. of the grant was expended upon it; and the family themselves paid the remainder; making altogether, he believed, 200,000 l.
The Resolution was agreed to, and a Bill ordered accordingly.

CORN LAWS.
The House, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, resumed the further consideration of the report respecting the Corn Laws.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas of opinion, that some of the Resolutions would require further deliberation; and he should wish the subject, so far as related to them, postponed; but so convinced was he of the propriety of the first Resolution, for allowing unrestrained export, that he should be unwilling, to postpone it for a single day. He did not believe there ever was a country in which agriculture flourished without export. It was not probable, that any inconvenience could be ever incurred from allowing a free export; as the great probability was, that the seller would find a higher price in this country than in any other. Other countries differed very materially from this with respect to the consumption of corn. In other countries, when corn was high, there was a much less consumption; but here the price of labour rose generally in proportion to the price of bread; and the poor laws also enabled the poor to consume the same quantity, whatever the price was; as, if they were unable to purchase, the parish was obliged to provide for them. Agriculture, he contended, ought to be encouraged; and the unrestrained privilege of export was one of the most likely means for this purpose. The other Resolutions, which were more doubtful, and required more mature consideration, he would defer till a future day.
Mr. Fosterexpressed his satisfaction at the right hon. gentleman's approbation of the first part of the measure. To the second Resolution he would himself object, as not being sufficiently simple. The Irish he considered as superior to the English system; and therefore Ireland had become a corn country, and was an exporting, when England was an importing country.
Sir H. Parnellwas also glad of the support of the right hon. gentleman; and hoped that another right hon. gentleman (Mr. Rose) would now see that the measure was neither rash nor unfounded. The
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export was certainly the more important branch of the measure, as we might by that, instead of an importing, become an exporting country. He had no objection to postpone the other Resolutions, provided the first was adopted. Sir Henry thanked the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for corroborating the measure by his authority. He hoped it would be allowed, that the Resolution had not been proposed on his (sir H. Parnell's) sole authority. If the time was proper, he believed that he had very lately learned some new facts, which would enable him to maintain the accuracy of the report of last year, to the satisfaction of the House.
Mr. Rosewas perfectly prepared to meet the hon. baronet on the subject of the Report. It was not his intention to object to the Resolution; but he would state, that his opinion was unchanged as to the mischief to which it would lead, if passed in a law. He would not press his individual opinion against the opinion of the House; but when the Bill was brought in he should have an opportunity, on the second reading of it, to take the sense of the House on the measure.
Sir John Newportsupported the measure. It was foretold in 1806, when the door was thrown open for export in Ireland, that it would be against that country. On the contrary, however, the agriculture of Ireland had increased every day since; and what had been found beneficial in one part of the United Kingdom could not be prejudicial to the other.
Mr. Westernwas of opinion, that the country should adhere to that system which had been so long followed with advantage. It was a question of the greatest importance, and required the maturest deliberation.
Mr. J. P. Grantagreed to the Resolution, as far as it went; but thought it did not go far enough. His opinion went the length of establishing that system which, by the experience of two half centuries, had made the country an exporting one; and the benefits of which were opposed to the experience of the last half century; by which it appeared, that the contrary system had made this country an importing one in the corn trade. He would not now take the sense of the House on the propriety of extending the measure, but he implored the House to turn its attention to the principle of the Resolution.
Mr. Marryattwas in favour of allowing the exportation of corn.
Mr. Hornerthought, that when the House came to consider the other Resolutions, it would see the propriety of pausing, at least for some time, before it went to a decision on so very important a measure. He wished that, once for all, the House would now decide on the interest by which those were actuated who opposed the Resolutions. The real interests of the consumer and of the landlord were one and the same. But what did the committee profess to do? Why, to raise the price to the consumer.—(A Member called out No! no!)—He would ask, whether the hon. member for the Queen's county (sir H. Parnell) had not acknowledged this on a former occasion; and if the hon. member who favoured him with the interruption took pains to enquire, he would find it was so. The necessary effect of the measure was, permanently to increase the price of corn. He approved of some parts of the view which his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken of the question.
Mr. W. Smithagreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Horner), that the interests of the landlord and consumer were the same; and he hoped that no imputations of interests views would be cast on any members, as many ill-disposed persons without doors were inclined to be sufficiently liberal in such calumnies. There was a paper which had been circulated at Norwich, containing a most violent petition to parliament, which had been agreed on at New Castle upon-Tyne, and which had been presented to the House of Lords by earl Grey, and to the House of Commons by the member for Newcastle. The Petition characterized the Report of the committee as a proposition which had for its object the raising the import price of corn, and compromising the commercial interests of the country for the temporary interests of the landlords; and as "an unhallowed attempt to bring ruin and devastation on the country, to annihilate the manufactures, and force our artizans to emigrate to countries where the means of subsistence were more easily obtained." From this paper, which would be circulated throughout the country, the House would see the necessity of abstaining from all inflammatory language. The consideration of the subject should be postponed, he thought, to a time when the politics of the country, internal and external, were more settled, especially until the time when the gold circulation was restored.
Mr. Ellisonsaid, that, though the House ought never to encourage such sentiments as those contained in the petition alluded to by the hon. member for Norwich, yet, when their constituents called upon them to present petitions, it was their duty to do so. But, while they gave those petitions full weight and consideration, they ought not to permit them to bias their independent judgment. If once they allowed them to have such an effect, there was an end to calm and deliberate investigation.
Mr. Harveyobserved, that he perfectly agreed in every syllable that had fallen from his hon. Colleague (Mr. W. Smith), with respect to the tendency of the paper which he had read; but he felt it his duty to exculpate the respectable inhabitants of Norwich from participating in the sentiments expressed in that production.
Mr. W. Smith, in explanation, said he was far from meaning to insinuate, that the paper in question was approved of by the people of Norwich; he was well acquainted with their feelings, and he knew they were opposed to such illiberal sentiments. That paper he considered as the production of some malignant spirits, who wished to raise a clamour against the proposed measure.
Mr. Lascellesrecommended the greatest caution and deliberation in legislating upon this important subject. It was but last year that it was asked, could any person expect to live to see corn so low as 10 s. 6d. a bushel. Gentlemen had only to look to the present price, and the change that took place would sufficiently prove the necessity of proceeding with all possible care. There was one error in respect to the fluctuation of price, which he was desirous of removing. Supposing corn to sell at twelve shillings at one time, and at eight shillings subsequently, the difference of price in that case was supposed to be the difference between eight and twelve. But this was not correct, because the excess in point of quantity sold at the lower price was to be taken into consideration, and subtracted from the excess of the one price above the other. He was hostile to the principle of legislating on prices, and wished them to be left to rise or fall by their own operation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that when reference was made to former times, it was to times when the population was not half what it now is. Now,

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the question was involved in the complication of our intercourse and interests with all the world. The first Resolution was distinctly by itself: the others would require much consideration; and the principles of them should be made known throughout the country, and examined well before they came to legislation.
The first Resolution was agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in. The farther consideration of the Report was postponed till Monday next.

APPRENTICE LAWS.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow moved the second reading of the Bill; which was warmly opposed by
Sir Fred. Flood, who, though a friend to liberty, disliked licentiousness. The Bill went to abrogate that most salutary law of the 5th Elizabeth; and to revive the practice which had previously existed from Edward the third's time. It would be destructive of the interests of persons who served their apprenticeships, and paid for education in their respective trades, and ruinous to the morals of youth. It would be hurtful to commerce, to mechanics, to manufactures, and to the Stamp Act. The present law had lasted 220 years. He proposed to postpone the second reading to that day six months.
Mr. Protheroeseconded the motion, as the Bill proceeded on no general comprehensive system; but simply on a repeal, without any efficient substitute for what was to be repealed. He objected to the measure in a moral point of view; in which respect he was upheld by the opinions of lord Coke and sir Wm. Blackstone. He had heard much of vexatious prosecutions under the Act of Elizabeth; but, on enquiry, he found that, at Bristol, for the last 20 years, there had not been one such prosecution. If apprenticeships were more encouraged, he was satisfied that combinations among journeymen would almost entirely be put an end to. If the House were to lower its attention down to the humble cottage, they would there see the advantages of this system, in beholding careful masters provided for the youths, who, in addition, were provided with food and clothing, while their morals were protected. He should be happy that the present Bill were withdrawn, and some measure unaccompanied by its disadvantages were introduced.
Mr. Hart Daviscould not disguise from himself that the present measure was attended with many difficulties. It would
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undoubtedly be of great advantage to our manufacturers that the present law should be repealed, and that every restraint should be removed from the rising generation. Supposing a person to be brought up to a trade for which from his constitution he was not fit, was he to be excluded from pursuing any other pursuit, or occupation whatever? Suppose the trade of button-makers, which was a trade that speedily passed away; or of gon-makers, of whom probably 40,000 might in a few months be thrown out of employment, was it to be held that they could follow no other occupation, but must remain a burden upon the community? The mere he considered the present measure, the more he was satisfied of its utility.
Mr. Protheroeexplained that he could wish a general review of the whole system.
Mr. Giddythought, if any one measure than another could be said to involve the general rights of mankind, the present was that measure. What was this but the general right of the inhabitants of this country, to employ the energies of their mind and body in the way they themselves pleased? And if a system were to be continued by which men were deprived of this general and undoubted right, it seemed to be incumbent on those who contended for the continuance of such a restriction to shew on what principle it was founded. If gentlemen attended to the time in which the law in question was passed, they would find that it was a period in which many ill-advised monopolies had been granted, and one in which remonstrances on that subject had been made by the House of Commons on the impolicy of such a system, which had not been much attended to. Nothing, he was convinced, had contributed so much as the law in question to check the progress in our arts and manufactures.
Sir C. Mordaunt, on the part of his constituents, the manufacturers of Birmingham, was strongly in favour of the present repeal. If the law, as it now stood, were put in force, it would have the effect of imposing the strongest possible fetters upon ingenuity and industry,
Mr. Thompsonliked liberty; and doing so, he wished to see every man have the liberty of employing his bands and his genius in the best way he could for his own advantage, and for the benefit of the country. This no man was at liberty to do, so long as the present law remained

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in force. He wished the law totally repealed, though the Bill did not go so far. The present law was necessarily broken every day. It was clear, that the judges always wished to evade it, when they could do so. He knew a case of two men, who were prosecuted under the Act for sawing a piece of wood; another, of a good and a bad baker in the same town; where the bad one, finding that the good one had not served a regular apprenticeship, had him turned out, and got liberty to poison, all his neighbours with his bad bread. Some years ago the printers struck, and there was a difficulty in getting even the parliamentary papers printed. Let those, who chose it, bind their children as apprentices; but let not others be compelled to do the same. Instances of the absurdity of the law would be innumerable. It was none the better for the age of it, which the worthy baronet had stated. It was, in fact, superannuated; and it was much the kindest way to let it die quietly, and so confer an advantage both on this country and Ireland. Lord Ellenborough once got the coach-makers out of a scrape ingeniously enough. They were attacked as wheel-makers; bat his lordship said, that coaches could not have been known in Elizabeth's days, as that queen went to parliament on horseback. He perfectly agreed in the opinion which lord Mansfield had given, in speaking of the Act of Elizabeth, that "it was against the natural rights of man, and contrary to the common law rights of the land."
Mr. Roseconsidered this as a subject of extraordinary difficulty. After all that had been said, he could not help thinking that if the Bill were passed into a law, it would put an end to apprenticeships altogether; for no person would subject himself to a seven years' servitude, when he knew, that having fulfilled his indenture, he would only be on a level with a man who perhaps had not been one year at the business. He was willing to examine and improve the 5th of Elizabeth, but would not agree to this unqualified repeal.
Sir J. Newportwas surprised that the hon. baronet (sir F. Flood) should be so anxious to perpetuate a statute which never was law in Ireland; and yet, in that country, where no such penalties as those indicted by the 5th of Elizabeth existed, the system of apprenticeships was freely and voluntarily adopted. He thought, on every principle of justice, that the sub-
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ject was entitled to make use of his abilities and industry in those pursuits most beneficial to his interests.
Sir S. Romillyhad been applied to on the subject of the present Bill, by the constituents of two hon. gentlemen who had already delivered their sentiments on the measure this night (Messrs. Protheroe and Davis). He felt the highest respect for the gentlemen who had so applied to him on the subject of the present Bill; but his opinion of the measure being decidedly opposite to theirs, he thought he should not be acting a manly part were he either to abstain from voting on this Bill, or were he to content himself with a silent vote on this occasion. He was satisfied that there were reasons sufficiently strong to support the system of apprenticeship in those trades in which a number of years were requisite to the acquiring a knowledge of them, without the assistance of the law as it now stood. This law, which went to prohibit a man from the exercise of that trade for which he was fit, he therefore thought ought to be repealed. For what was it but to take from a poor man the only property he possessed—his genius and industry—and to drive him into a workhouse; or to force him to abandon his country, and to forsake his wife and family. These were the moral consequences which the House was to look for from a perseverance in the law as it now stood.
Alderman Atkinshoped that some clause might be introduced into the Bill, when it was in the committee, that would give sufficient encouragement to the apprentice system; while, at the same time, the abuses of it might be remedied.
Sir F. Flood, seeing the sense of the House against him, withdrew his amendment.
Mr. Canningwished the Bill to go into the committee. He was aware that the subject was attended with considerable difficulties. The difficulty would be to find the means of doing away the abuses complained of, without doing away the system altogether, which he was convinced was useful to the perfection of our manufacturers, and still more useful as affecting the morality of the lower orders.
Mr. Serjeant Bestsaid, that if no other member introduced a clause to that effect, he himself should feel it his duty to propose one. He thought the penal clauses of the Act of Elizabeth should certainly be repealed; but that, at the same time, it was much better that young people should

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not be left without some contronl. He thought that at present the masters had much more advantages from the services of the apprentice, than the apprentice had from the instructions of the master; as most of those trades might be learned in a very short time. He therefore wished that part of the earnings might go to the parents, as an encouragement to the system.
Mr. P. Mooreopposed the Bill because he thought that its enactment would operate seriously to the prejudice of our manufactures both in skill and reputation. Indeed, such had been found the effect of the partial repeal of the statute of Elizabeth with respect to the woollen manufacture. For although the Yorkshire tag had formerly been a sufficient recommendation upon the continent; yet since the repeal alluded to, our pieces of woollen-manufactures were examined yard by yard before they were purchased.
Mr. Lockhartexpressed his opinion, that this Bill, it enacted, should only operate prospectively; that is, that it should not become effective until a certain period; so that those mechanics who had served apprenticeships upon the faith of the existing law, should not be injured by its operation, by being thrown out of employment at a period of life when they could not devote themselves to any other profession than that to which they had been reared.
Mr. B. Shawdeprecated the idea that morality was likely to be endangered, or our manufactures injured, by the enactment of the Bill under consideration; for Scotland, to which the Act of Elizabeth never extended, was never found in any degree inferior in morality, or skill in manufacture.
Mr. W. Smithobserved, that he never heard of any proposition of reform which was not likely to be inconvenient to some persons; and therefore he was not surprised at the assertion, that the adoption of the Bill before the House would operate to injure the interests of particular persons. The apprehension of such injury was, however, in his judgment, unfounded. But still, those who expressed the apprehension were entitled to attention; and the objections which certain petitioners urged against this Bill, would, he had no doubt, meet all due consideration in the committee. The fact was, as to the statute of Elizabeth, that its existence served to create certain monopolies; and the effect of those monopolies was, that when the
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demand for an article was large, the price was enhanced to the public; while, when the demand became small, many workmen were thrown out of employment. Therefore, the repeal of that stature would tend to serve both the public and the workmen. As to the argument advanced in support of the statute of Elizabeth, merely in consequence of its antiquity, he could not admit that it had any force. He declared that his ears were quite tired of the phrase "the wisdom of our ancestors," which phrase was, in fact, calculated only to impose upon the superficial. For, after all, what did this phrase mean? The world was younger in the time of our ancestors, although they were older than us. Time, lord Bacon said, was the greatest innovator; and if, at this advanced time of the world, after all our experience, we could not improve upon the system of our ancestors, our intellects must be what would hardly be asserted, not only quite unequal to theirs, but infinitely inferior. How then could it be pretended, that the same legislative, arrangement applied in the reign of Elizabeth, when the trade of the whole British empire was not equal to that of the port of London at this day, was, strictly applicable at present, and suited to our improved situation?
Mr. Serjeant Onslowreplied and observing upon the petitions on the table against the Bill, expressed his conviction that they were not the unsolicited acts of the petitioners; as indeed appeared from several placards about town, inviting signatures to such petitions; and those petitioners, he meant especially the journeymen mechanics, would find the repeal of the Act of Elizabeth rather materially serviceable, than in any degree injurious to their interests.
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday.