Commons Sitting of 28 March 1814

EXCHEQUER BILLS.
In a Committee of Supply, it was resolved on a motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a sum not exceeding 1,900,000 l. be granted for discharging interest on Exchequer Bills; and that 290,000 l. for Exchequer Bills, and 10,000 l. for Debentures, (making in all 300,000 l.), being paid to the Bank of England, on account of the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt.

COLONIAL OFFICES BILL.
The Second reading of this Bill being moved,
Mr. Brownesaid, though unaware of the necessity of this Bill, or that the regulations proposed by it would render the principle of the Act of the 22nd of the King more secure and operative, he was very unwilling to oppose a Bill that merely professed to compel personal discharge of official duty; convinced as he was of the necessity, and the highly beneficial consequences
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of that policy. But this Bill appeared to have other objects in view, or to effect other objects, though possibly not intended; and therefore he could not refrain from saying a few words. The Act of the 22nd of the King was not merely unexceptionably beneficial, but it was substantial and sufficient for its purpose. The violation of it was not owing to want of regulation, but to want of firmness in his Majesty's government; not, however, in the present administration, but former ones. The violations were not merely connived at, but devised, by the appointment of certain persons to high official situations in the colonies, who, at the time they were so appointed, were never intended to discharge the duties of their situations. He did not mean to involve the individuals so appointed in any blame. They were men of character and talent, eminently suited for any public situation, and he had so much respect for them; that he would not even make the allusion if it would hurt their feelings. But though they were justified in accepting, those who gave them those places violated the Act, and compromised the interests of the colonies to their own necessities and desires. If they had acted with a sincere intention to carry the Act into effect, and had recalled a governor who had abused the power of granting leave, such a step would have been a greater check to any deviations from the Act than all the regulations in the world; but he chiefly objected to the last clause of the Act, which, by legalizing the appointments so illegally made, or made contrary to the spirit of the Act of the 22nd, placed the legislature in a situation of inconsistency. He dwelt upon the effect of this clause, as intending to cover the violations of the former Act; and concluded with a hope, that, if it was so intended, parliament, in justice to the immortal statesman (the late Mr. Burke) from whose profound knowledge and pure system of moral duty the Bill proceeded, would not countenance the means of evading that system of improvement which it was the object of his heart to effect; and in the accomplishment of which he had raised a lasting and imperishable claim on the affections and the gratitude of his country.
Mr. Goulburnbegged to inform the hon. gentleman, that he was mistaken in supposing colonial appointments to have been made in defiance of the Act. They were

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usually granted not by patent, but by commission. This might be called an evasion, but he thought it hardly deserved such a character. Whatever might be thought on this subject, he apprehended the hon. gentleman could not wish to complain of this Bill, because it went to make evasion impossible. The provision objected to in the last clause was supported by the authority of Mr. Burke himself; as he, when regulating patent offices, had thought it unfit to touch existing interests. On the same principle he, in bringing in this Bill, had thought those whose services had been rewarded by appointments under warrant or commission, ought not to be disturbed. It was proper to be stated, that the noble lord presiding over the colonial department had not granted an appointment by patent without enforcing the clause of residence.
Mr. Creeveydid not think the present Bill a suitable remedy for the grievance complained of; which was, that persons residing here held situations in the colonies of great emolument and trust, while they had others to do all the duty for them. The principle upon which the House ought to go was, to save to the public the money thrown away upon duties thus discharged. The precedent that he would take for any act of this kind was the 22nd of his present Majesty. He would put one case which occurred since the passing of this Act. He would ask, whether the place granted to sir Evan Nepean was a patent place, or one granted by commission? It was a place which brought in 2,500 l. a year.—If he had it by patent, it was a violation of the 22nd of the King, that he should be allowed to hold it, as he did, without personal attendance. The vendue master of Malta was, he believed, also a patent place, and the duties of it were not performed by the person who held it. Mr. John King was naval master of Jamaica, with a salary of 1,600 l. a year. He was appointed in 1796. Was this, he would ask, a patent place, or one granted by commission? This was a direct violation of the 22nd of his Majesty. But these were not the only persons who held places in the colonies, the duties of which they did not discharge. Lord Braybrook, and the Messrs Windhams, held places in Jamaica for 52 years, which they never filled—one was provostmarshal, the other two were secretaries. If, indeed, they had been sent over at two years of age, when they obtained the places,
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there was every reason to believe that the duties could not be well performed; they would be much better executed by deputy.—He did not complain of the manner in which the duties of those places were performed: what he complained of was, that such places should be at all allowed to exist. The truth was, that the House passed an Act last session, by which such offices as were filled by deputy were abolished. The persons holding them should be compelled to resign, and not to reside.
Mr. Marryattapproved of the Bill. He thought the House and the country ought to be obliged to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) who brought it forward.
Mr. Stephenshould not think he performed his duty if he did not rise to second what had been said by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Marryatt). The Bill would, he was convinced, tend to raise the character of the resident white inhabitants of the colonies. Even in this view it was important. With respect to what had been thrown out relative to the manner of granting such places, it could not apply to the noble lord now at the head of the colonial department. His principle of conduct while he held that situation, was, to withhold his patronage from all places in the colonies, except upon the condition of residence. This he could assert upon his own knowledge. He would not admit, that every appointment in the colonies, since the passing of the Act alluded to, was illegal without the condition of residence. If the law applied to the particular cases, there was no possible way of evading it; and if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Browne) knew of any places given contrary to the law, it was his duty to declare the abuse, and to endeavour to punish such as were guilty of it. The 22nd of the King related only to patent places; it had no reference to such as were granted by commission. Nor did, he think with the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Creevey), that persons holding their places by commission should be deprived of them. They were vested rights. As to personal responsibility in the colonies, it was a perishable commodity. It would be unjust thus to take such rights away. The Bill did not touch upon existing rights.
Mr. Baringthought it was impossibly to look at the conduct of the administration, without seeing that there was a gross violation of the letter of the law with respect to the colonies. He should be much

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better pleased if it were a Bill to regulate offices abroad generally.
Mr. Whitbreadwould trouble the House with a very few words, in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Stephen.)—When persons were in possession of patent offices, their rights were certainly reserved in cases of this kind; but he must protest against the doctrine delivered by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Stephen), that those were vested rights which were never considered such. The Bill, he said, did not interfere with vested rights; but places granted by commission were not vested. This was the first time he heard vested rights extended so far. If the honourable gentleman spoke thus through mistake, he was glad that he afforded him this opportunity of correcting himself; but he must protest against the doctrine, particularly as the last clause of this Bill was involved in it. He willingly joined in the praises of the noble lord at the head of the colonies, for putting a clause of residence in the grant of colonial offices. It was said, that personal responsibility was a perishable commodity in the colonies. It would appear, that they took all means of avoiding it; for they only sent out the grafts, and kept the stock at home. But if they went out there, he could not see any means of their avoiding responsibility. If sir Evan Nepean, for example, filled his place there personally, and not by deputy, what means could he have of avoiding responsibility? The Bill ought to be watched in the committee; and if the hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) bonâ fide intended the Bill for good purposes, he deserved commendation and support.
Mr. Stephenrose to explain. He could not, he said, but consider it as a violation of justice to deprive a man, without cause, of an office granted even by commission. He held an office granted, not by patent, but for life, or during good behaviour; yet he should think it unjust to be deprived of it without cause. What a person held for life, he considered as an interest vested in him. It was in that sense he used the expressions alluded to.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he was glad the hon. gentleman had been so explicit, as the House had an opportunity of forming a judgment of the nature of his situation. Notwithstanding the disadvantages of his office, however, he apprehended it would be as difficult to get him out of it, as his friends had found it to get him in.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday.

REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Mr. Brogdenreported from the Committee of Supply, the following Resolutions, which were read, and agreed to by the House:
1. Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding two millions, be granted to his Majesty, on account of the extraordinary services of the army of Great Britain and Ireland, for the year 1814.
2. That a sum, not exceeding two millions, be granted to his Majesty, on account, for defraying the charge of the commissary in chief's department, for the year 1814, exclusive of any purchases of specie.
3. That a sum, not exceeding 36,882 l. 14 s. 5d. be granted to his Majesty, for paying off and discharging, on the 5th day of April 1814, certain annuities granted by two Acts of the 37th and 42d years of his present Majesty; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
4. That a sum, not exceeding 1,673 l. 17 s. be granted to his Majesty, for the relief of the poor French refugee clergy, for the year 1814; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
5. That a sum, not exceeding 4,500 l. be granted to his Majesty, for the relief of the poor French refugee laity, for the year 1814; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
6. That a sum, not exceeding 5,376 l. 9s. 1d. be granted to his Majesty, towards making good the deficiency of the grant of 1813, for defraying the expence of printing bills, reports, and other papers, by order of the House of Commons during the last session.
7. That a sum, not exceeding 93,594 l. 1s. 8d. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the expence attending the confining, maintaining, and employing convicts at home, for the year 1814.
8. That a sum, not exceeding 1,978 l. 6s. 9d. be granted to his Majesty, to make good the deficiency of the grant of 1813, for defraying the extraordinary expences incurred for prosecutions relating to the coin of this kingdom.
9. That a sum, not exceeding 1,987 l. 18 s. 2d. be granted to his Majesty, to defray

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the charge incurred in April 1813, in the purchase of grain and potatoes conveyed to the Shetland Islands for the relief of the distressed inhabitants there; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
10. That a sum, not exceeding 5,092 l. 4s. be granted to his Majesty, to discharge, in the year 1814, the arrears due to the several tradesmen for works done at the Houses of Parliament and the Speaker's house, from Michaelmas 1800 to the 5th day of January 1812; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
11. That a sum, not exceeding 1,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, for carrying on, in the year 1814, the improvements of Holyhead harbour; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
12. That a sum, not exceeding 39,780 l. be granted to his Majesty, to pay one year's interest to the 10th day of October 1814, on the sum raised by debentures in pursuance of two Acts of the 53d year of his present Majesty, for granting annuities to satisfy certain Exchequer bills, and for raising money by debentures, for the service of Great Britain; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.
13. That a sum, not exceeding 1,500 l. be granted to his Majesty, to be applied by the society called The Refuge for the Destitute in support of that institution; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever.

CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.
Mr. Buthurstmoved the order of the day, for the House resolving into a committee on this Bill. In making this motion, he begged to state to the House, that in consequence of what he had said on a former occasion, when he moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the permanent relief of the clergy, he had received a letter from the attorney of the informer, Mr. Wright; in which he was accused of having, in the statements which he then made, prejudiced Mr. Wright's interests. The part of his speech which seemed to have given most offence was, that in which he stated, that an action had been brought against one gentleman for penalties which amounted to 15,816 l. this gentleman having, in fact, invariably resided on one or other of the livings which
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he happened to hold: Mr. Wright's attorney stated, that this observation, although true in fact, was not true in substance; for, notwithstanding the law required that the damages should be laid at that sum, nominally, the real sum sought to be recovered was but 3,683 l. subject to deductions, which would, no doubt, be made to a considerable extent. In the whole of this gentleman's correction, however, he had not attempted to refute the real essence of the observations which had been made; which was, that the person against whom the action had been commenced, had, in truth, invariably resided on one or other of his livings, and had only been guilty of neglecting to notify to his bishop on which he had resided. Whether the sum was 15,816 l. or 3,683 l. was a matter of no importance.
The Bill was then committed, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.

STATE OF GAOLS IN LONDON AND SOUTHWARK.
Mr. Edenrose, in pursuance of notice, to move for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the state of the gaol of Newgate, and the Poultry, Giltspur street, Ludgate and Borough compters; and to report their observations thereupon, together with any improvement which may be practicable therein: in doing which he observed, that after what had been said on this subject on a former occasion, he did not think it necessary now to make any remarks whatever.
The question having been put,
Mr. Alderman Atkinsexpressed his surprise that the hon. gentleman had not assigned some reason for this motion. He was aware, that when the subject was last before the House, the gaols in question were in a very crowded state, both the debtors and felons being extremely numerous.—Since that period, however, another gaol, in which the city proposed to place all the debtors, had been building, and was now in a very forward state. His Majesty's ministers too had taken every means in their power to thin the crowd with which Newgate had been filled, by removing to another situation all those convicts who had received judgment. This being the case, and every necessary precaution having in fact been taken to remedy the evils complained of, he could have hoped that the hon. gentleman would not, by the motion which he had made, have conveyed an indirect censure on the magistracy of London.
Mr. Alderman C. Smithalso expressed his surprise that the hon. gentleman should have introduced his motion without giving some reason to the House, which would justify them in adopting his proposition.
Mr. Edensaid, he could have no difficulty in assigning a reason for his motion. The papers, for which he had moved some time ago, contained a catalogue of the grievances under which the prisons to which he alluded laboured. From these it appeared, that the women were without clothing, and frequently without bedding; and it further appeared, that the whole of the gaols were crowded to an extent truly uncomfortable. Since that period he had himself visited those prisons, and found full scope for the humane interposition of the legislature. He found that great neglect had subsisted in the management of those receptacles of the unfortunate, and more particularly in a prison in another place, he meant that in the Borough; beyond this he did not think it necessary to state. He had no wish whatever to cast any reflection upon the magistrates of the city of London; nor did he apprehend that any reflection on them could be conveyed by his motion. Indeed, when he first introduced the subject to the consideration of the House, the gentlemen who represented the city gave their most hearty acquiescence to the investigation he sought. Why they were now disposed to secede from that acquiescence he was at a loss to imagine.
Sir William Curtiswas far from wishing to shrink from the enquiry proposed; convinced, as he was, that the conduct of the magistracy of the city of London, and of the persons connected with the gaols alluded to, would, on investigation, prove highly creditable to themselves. The gaols, it was true, had been crowded in a manner extremely inconvenient to the unhappy persons who were confined; but every means had been taken to lessen that hardship; and the moment the sheriffs heard that the females were without clothing and bedding, they entered into a contract for the procuration of every thing that was necessary.—(Mr. Whitbread here cried, "Aye!")—The hon. gentleman might say aye! but the fact was so; and he defied any person to say that neglect or inattention was imputable to any of the persons under whom the prisoners in question had been placed.
Sir J. Shawsaid, that he for one acquiesced in the motion, but he could have
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wished the hon. gentleman had postponed bringing it forward till the magistrates of London had matured the plan which they had in view for remedying the evils complained of. It was in their contemplation to build a new prison for debtors, by which Newgate and Ludgate would be much relieved from the inconveniency they had lately laboured under from the great numbers confined in them. It was their intention also to make such arrangements as should prevent in future the recurrence of such distresses as had been lately experienced. These arrangements were next to be submitted to the consideration of the lord chancellor, the two chief justices, and the lord chief baron of the Exchequer; and from the wisdom of their united judgment, little doubt could be entertained but the evils complained of would be effectually done away. He repeated, therefore, that it would have been better if the hon. gentleman had not been so pressing in bringing forward his motion.
Mr. Whitbreadexpressed his surprise that the worthy aldermen should have found fault with his hon. friend for having brought forward the present motion; especially as it appeared from their own declarations, that not one of them meant to oppose it. He was still more surprised that while they seemed convinced that no blame whatever was imputable to the magistrates of London, they should appear to feel so sore at what his hon. friend had said. His hon. friend had moved for a paper which when produced rendered it still more incumbent on him, in his own mind, to take a personal view of the gaol; and in so doing he had found it more particularly his duty to put the subject into a train of inquiry. Nothing could be more candid and liberal than the mode in which his hon. friend had proceeded. He had abstained from giving any opinion on the subject, and contented himself with barely moving for a committee to make enquiry into the case, and to report their opinion to the House. The hon. baronet, who spoke last, had wished that the motion should have been postponed till the magistrates of London had matured the plan upon which it was their intention to act. He (Mr. W.) differed from the hon. baronet on that head: he, for his own part, would rather be inclined to look into things as they were, than to wait for the intentions of any set of men whatever. Where evil existed, they could not too soon be removed; he thought, therefore, his hon. friend had acted most

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prudently in not permitting any further delay to take place.
The question was the agreed to, and the committee appointed; of which the four city members were to form a part, and five to be a quorum.