Commons Sitting of 1 June 1814

IRISH SPIRITS.
Sir G. Clerke presented a petition from certain distillers in Scotland, praying for the continuance of the suspension of the intercourse of spirits between Great Britain and Ireland.
The Petition having been read,
Sir G. Clerkemoved, that it be referred to the committee appointed to consider the subject of the intercourse of spirits between the two kingdoms.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that the prayer of the petition was, to establish a permanent infringement of the Act of Union, by which the importation of Irish spirits into England was stipulated for. It would be a more manly course, if the people of any part of Great Britain were dissatisfied with the Act of Union, to instruct their representatives to move for its repeal altogether, than to petition for the evasion of those parts only which were beneficial to Ireland. The petition wished for an establishment in Ireland of the regulations on distilleries in Great Britain. On what ground was such an application justified? Might not the manufacturers of any article

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in Ireland be as much justified in coming forward to demand an assimilation to their own practice, of the same branch of trade which was carried on more beneficially in England. It was true, that under the Act of Union the Irish spirits could come into the English markets at a price inferior to the spirits manufactured in Great Britain; but it was an advantage guaranteed to them by the Act of Union; all suspensions of which he always had opposed, and ever should oppose.
Mr. W. Dundassupported the prayer of the petition.
Mr. W. Fitzgeraldagreed with the right hon. baronet (sir. J. Newport); and observed, that the measure of 1809, which the petition supported by its prayer, had been acknowledged to be a violation of the Act of Union. The only reason why the non-intercourse had been continued, was, that by a full inquiry into the subject all future difficulties might be obviated, and not from the conviction that it was beneficial as a permanent measure. The petition could not be supported on the strength of the Act of Union, when its first prayer was for a continuance of the violation of that contract.
Mr. Westernsupported the prayer of the petition; and said, that the question was, whether Irish spirits should come into this country at half the duty paid by those manufactured in this island?
Mr. R. Shaw, of Dublin, opposed the prayer of the petition.
Sir G. Clerkesaid, that in 1786 a measure had been adopted, with respect to the intercourse of spirits between England and Scotland, precisely similar to that, for the adoption of which, with respect to Great Britain and Ireland, the petition he had presented prayed. By that measure, the spirits of one country were not allowed to be imported into the other, unless they were manufactured in distilleries subject to particular regulations. This measure had not been thought hostile to the Act of Union with Scotland, which, as to freedom of trade, was the same as that with Ireland. The object of the petition was, to obtain a continuance of the suspension, with a view to a full enquiry into the subject.
Mr. W. Smiththought the matter of too much importance to be cursorily passed over; and he must protest against the doctrine he had heard, that there was the slightest desire to interfere with the principles of the Union: such a false representation should not be suffered to go
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abroad; at the same time, he, for one, would be unwilling that the manufacturers of this country should be ruined, and transferred to the other side of the water.
Mr. Shawhoped gentlemen would not allow their minds to be misled by the idea that the Irish manufacturers were enabled to export their spirits at half the usual duty. But when the Irish spirits were imported, the English distiller was by no means ruined. He considered the question to be one in which the empire at large was interested; and he had no doubt it would be so fairly considered, that each part of the empire might derive proper advantage from the measures that would be introduced.
The question for the petition to lie on the table was carried.
General Gascoynepresented a counter-petition from the distillers of Liverpool; observing, that as the subject had just been exhausted, he should offer no remarks on it.—This was also ordered to lie on the table.

IMPRESSMENT OF SEAMEN.
Mr. W. Dundas, seeing a noble lord in his place who had asked some questions on a former evening respecting impressments, would take the opportunity of saying, with regard to the first question, that no distinction was made in the orders of the Admiralty as to the impress at different ports. As to the mates of ships, they were protected, by the order of the Admiralty, as long as they were doing their duty aboard their own ships, and they might also procure tickets of leave from the officer of the port to go on shore. On another question which he had put to him, parliament alone could determine. He denied that he had been actuated by any spirit of disrespect to the House, or its members; but he had been warmly assailed, and had warmly replied. As to the impress on the Thames, it was true that it continued still; and it was necessary so long as hostilities continued with America; but it was so reduced, that whereas it formerly used to produce from 70 to 100 men per month, in the last month only five men were pressed, three of whom the officer had been desired to impress as riotous persons. In the same month 51 persons had entered as volunteers.
Mr. Whitbreadthought it necessary immediately to notice some words which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dundas). That right hon. gentleman had

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said, that three men had been impressed as riotous persons, at the desire of some other persons. Thus was this power of impress, illegal and oppressive as it was in itself, perverted from its legitimate object—thus were persons delivered, for purposes unknown, to the arbitrary power of the Admiralty. He thought it would be necessary that the names of these three persons should be laid before the House; and that the House should be acquainted with those who had desired the impressment of these persons, as well as with the reasons which induced the Admiralty to comply with their request.
Mr. Crokersaid, that the Admiralty was innocent of any designation of particular persons for the purpose of their being pressed. The execution of the impress warrants rested with the officers of the ports only. When the impress was slack, the officers did not visit the different ships with particular diligence; and then, if sailors were idle or riotous, the master might inform the impress officers that they would do him no harm by taking such or such persons. It was a favour to a master of a merchant-ship, when the impress officers were obliged to take some men from his vessel, to allow him to choose those whom he would wish to remain.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, the words, as they had fallen from a lord of the Admiralty, were open to the remarks which he had made; and he still thought it would be proper to move for the production of the names of the three persons mentioned.
Mr. Barhammade some observations on the conduct of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dundas) on a former night. The practice of putting questions had been for a long period common in that House; and answers had always been given, unless it could be stated that the answer would be dangerous to the state. Without this most convenient practice, the time of the House would have been occupied with many unnecessary and almost endless debates.
Lord Miltonthought the answer of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dundas) was not satisfactory as to the impressment of mates of vessels; as, by law, those persons were protected, whether on board their vessels, or on shore.

THE PRINCESS OF WALES.
The Methuenrose, in consequence of a correspondence which had been laid before the public, to ask a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bathurst)
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whom he saw in his place, which of his Majesty's ministers it was, who had advised his royal highness the Prince Regent to take those measures which had been taken to prevent the Princess of Wales from appearing at her Majesty's drawing room?
Mr. Bathurstsaid, he was aware of the convenience of the practice which had been adopted of asking and answering questions in that House, by which means the necessity of making motions was frequently obviated; but as to the question which the hon. gentleman had put, he could only say, that it did not appear to him that the circumstances and character of the transaction warranted him in giving it any answer.
Mr. Methuenthen gave notice, that he should, on Friday next, bring forward a motion on the subject. The purport of his motion would be—That an humble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, to enquire who was the person that advised his Royal Highness to adopt the measures which had been taken to prevent her royal highness the Princess of Wales from appearing at her Majesty's drawing-room.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose to say a few words on a subject connected with that respecting which notice of a motion had been given. He was a friend, as much as any man, to the liberty of the press, and was not at all inclined, for personal or private considerations, to interfere with this liberty; but he should read, for the purpose of contradicting it, a statement which had recently been published. In a paper called the Morning Herald, of Friday, May the 27th, the following paragraph had appeared:—
"Several Opposition Councils have been assembled on the well-fomented variance between her M—and the Princess of W—, respecting the well-advised non-appearance of the latter at the next Drawing room at Buckingham House. The last of these councils was holden yesterday afternoon; when Mr. BR—M, as her Royal Highness's Advocate-General, laid before it copies of the Correspondence which had recently passed between the Illustrious Parties on this unfortunate subject. A debate immediately took place on the expediency of giving immediate publicity thereto. The majority contended, that it was too great a PARTY CARD to be shuffled away at so critical a moment unplayed. It was opposed, however, by the more temperate few, as an improper appeal to the

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public opinion on a domestic misunderstanding of such extreme personal delicacy. This rational argument, however, was soon over-ruled by an appeal to numbers; for, on a division taking place, we understand they stood thus:—

For publishing.

Against publishing.

Earl of G—Y,

Earl FITZ—M,

Earl of L—LE,

Lord GR—LLE,

Lord H—L—D,

Lord M—LT—ON,

Mr. WHITB—D,

Mr. P—NS—BY.

Mr. T—RN—Y,

"Mr. BR—M, not being in parliament, did not divide, contenting himself with being Teller. A Resolution was then moved, "That her M—'s letter should, at all events, be published forthwith," which passed without a division. It remains, therefore, to be seen, whether even the Advocate-General will presume to outrage the public feeling by carrying so extraordinary a Restitution into effect."
The names (Mr. P. said) which were here introduced with dashes, it was impossible that any person could mistake. By Br—m, who was styled her Royal Highness's Advocate-General, was clearly meant Mr. Brougham. His (Mr. Ponsonby's) name was the last upon the list. Of this paragraph he must say, that a more impudent falsehood, a more unfounded lie, was never attempted to be palmed upon a British public. No such meeting was ever held—no such meeting was ever in contemplation. No council was ever held, or proposed, upon the subject, by him, or by those with whom he was in the habit of acting in that House; nor was there any man more ignorant than he was of the whole proceedings that took place upon the subject to which the paragraph referred. He would not say more now upon the matter; notice of a motion had been given; and when that motion was brought forward, he would state what his sentiments were; but though a friend to the just liberty of the press, he could not avoid complaining of this licentious abuse of it.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he could vouch, as his right hon. friend had done, that the publication which had been read was altogether false. He was exceedingly surprised that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bathurst), the only minister of the rank of cabinet counsellor in the House, should, though he had spoken, be virtually silent on the subject respecting which a question had been put. He (Mr. W.) could only infer from that silence a disavowal of the
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transaction; or that, the act being done, he or his colleagues were ashamed of the advice they had given. If the House did what it was its duty to do, it would extort that answer which had then been refused. As it was a matter of such urgent importance, he thought to-morrow should be preferred as the day for the discussion of the question; not only because it was the nearest day, but because it was that on which the insult was intended to be practised, not only on her royal highness the Princess of Wales, but on the King in his infirmity. He hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman would bring forward his motion to-morrow.
Mr. Methuensaid, that he had fixed his motion for Friday on account of the Drawing-room to-morrow.
Mr. Whitbread—That is the very reason why it should then be brought forward.Mr. Whitbread—That is the very reason why it should then be brought forward.

ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES.
Upon the Report of the Committee of Supply, with regard to the Army Extraordinaries, having been brought up,
Mr. Fremantlerose, and expressed his surprize that nothing had yet been intimated to the House, or the country, respecting any proposed reduction of our war-expenditure in the army, or in any other department. It was hard, he thought, that, after the country had borne so many burthens which that House had concurred in imposing, no prospect was held out to the House or the country of the diminution of those burthens, notwithstanding the various opportunities which had for some time back occurred of presenting such a prospect. Two months had elapsed since Buonaparté was deposed; yet no reduction of our military expence had yet taken place, nor had any declaration been made by ministers, to cheer the people by the hope of that which they were naturally induced to calculate would be the immediate consequence of that deposition. Thus the people, after all those sufferings which they had borne with unexampled patience, were denied that consolation or prospect of relief which they had a right to expect. The hon. member particularly complained that no step whatever was taken to reduce the militia, which amounted to nearly 100,000 men, of which about 2,500 were serving abroad. This militia was confessedly embodied with a view to repress internal insurrection, and to guard against foreign attack. Of the latter it could not be pretended that any

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fear existed since the destruction of the dynasty of Buonaparté; and he would put it to any gentleman whether the least ground of apprehension appeared with respect to the former? From the moment then of Buonaparté's dethronement, the country should have been relieved from the expence created by the militia, which expence amounted to between 3 and 4 millions a year. Every hour, indeed, which this part of our force continued embodied, the country was subjected to unnecessary expence. There was also another part of our force, to which every principle of economy and national policy should direct the attention of ministers. There were between 30 and 40,000 foreign troops in our pay, and that portion of them which were now in England ought to be promptly reduced. In the naval department too, some steps should have been taken with a view to reduction; for safely it could not be necessary to maintain the same amount of force in commission at present, as for some time back. At least ministers should, for the satisfaction of the country, have declared an intention to reduce the public expenditure in this and the other departments to which he had referred; or have stated their reasons for continuing such expenditure, in what might be fairly deemed a period of peace, as the country was called upon to defray during war. Some communication was certainly due to parliament and the public upon the subject. There was another head of expence to which he also thought it necessary to advert. He was informed—indeed he had the information from some emigrants—that ministers had announced their intention of continuing to all the emigrants their usual allowance for 12 months longer, instead of leaving them to depend upon their own industry, or upon the resources of their respective countries. The hon. member recapitulated the several points to which he had adverted; and observed, that ministers had betrayed a want of alacrity, and a remissness to execute their duty, and satisfy the feelings of the country. Recurring to the militia, he stated that the colonels of that corps were not yet apprised of any steps to disembody them; nay, it was alleged that it was not intended to disembody the militia for some months. He hoped this allegation was incorrect; and he should be gratified if what he had stated served to force some satisfactory explanation from ministers. The necessity which
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called for such an explanation could not be disputed, especially when the amount of our war-expenditure was taken into consideration. He did not mean, in so thin a House, to enter into detail as to this expenditure; but the aggregate for the last year was known to exceed 140,000,000 l.—of that expence he was by no means disposed to complain, as it had led to such important results. But then its amount, combined with the circumstances of the country, must suggest to every considerate man the necessity of looking to every practicable means of its diminution, and reducing our future expences. The expenditure occasioned by our army on the continent was not less than between 12 and 13 millions a year; and surely, without pressing for the immediate return of that army, ministers were called upon to state their intentions, in order that the country might know when and how far it might calculate upon enjoying the consequences of peace. Ministers should, indeed, have availed themselves of the different opportunities which had occurred, both in the Committee of Supply, and on other occasions, to communicate these intentions for the public satisfaction; but even now he should be glad to have an explanation from them upon this important subject.
Mr. Lushingtonobserved, that the remarks of the hon. gentleman would be rather more applicable on the discussion of the army estimates than on the motion before the House, which referred only to the army extraordinaries. On the part of ministers, he could venture to say, that from the moment of the cessation of hostilities their attention was most diligently directed to the consideration of every practicable means of reducing the expences incident to war. But, as the question of our military expenditure would come more fully and properly before the House on Friday, in discussing the army estimates, he should not enter further into the subject at present.
Mr. H. Addingtonsaid, that he was not prepared for any discussion this evening on the subject of our military expenditure; but the hon. member on the other side, whose observations he convinced rather premature, as his hon. friend had remarked, having adverted to the conduct of the department, with which he (Mr. A.) was officially connected, he thought it proper shortly to explain. With regard to the militia, the fact was, that the letters

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ordering that corps to be disembodied were actually in readiness to be issued as soon as the preliminaries of peace were signed; and that, according to uniform practice, was the proper period for issuing such orders. It was also to be considered, that the reduction of the militia could not be the work of a day, especially as there were several of the English militia regiments in Ireland. But that ministers were active in endeavouring to reduce the expences of war, the country would, he had no doubt, be fully satisfied. To his knowledge, indeed, many measures with a view to that reduction had been taken as early as possible. Among others, orders were issued to prevent the local militia from being called out as usual to be trained; and similar orders, with a view to economy, had been circulated with respect to the yeomanry.
Sir J. Yorkeobserved, that although one great enemy of this country, Buonaparté had been deposed, there was another gentleman whose deposition was also necessary to our interest; he meant Mr. President Madison; and with a view to that deposition, a considerable naval force must be kept up, especially in the Atlantic. But as to his hon. friend's opinion respecting the reduction of the navy, he wished it to be considered that a number of shipping were employed in conveying French prisoners to France, and bringing home our own countrymen. So much for the occupation of our navy on the home station. But from the Mediterranean, for instance, several three-deckers were ordered home; and he could "swear," [a laugh] that no practicable exertion would be remitted to reduce the expence of our naval department.
Mr. Fremantlewas not altogether satisfied with the explanation given. That force which had been, in a great measure, created to resist the measures of Buonaparté ought to be done away when his system was at an end. Did the hon. gentleman, when he stated part of the militia to be abroad, mean to say, that because that part which was out of the country could not be immediately disbanded, no reduction whatever ought to take place for the present, not till the whole were brought home? He contended, a reduction ought to be made from day to day, from hour to hour, and he would almost say, man by man, as far as was practicable. He was of opinion, that we had already a sufficient number of ships off America; and those
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fleet which had been in the Downs, and which had been applicable to the Basque Roads, the Scheldt, and various parts of the Mediterranean, might immediately be paid off, or much reduced. Though not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. gentleman, he was glad that he had gained for the country a declaration that a great reduction would be made when the preliminaries of peace shall have been signed.
Mr. Bathurstdid not complain of the hon. gentleman for making a second speech; but he thought he had a right to complain when he look credit to himself for having gained a declaration of vast importance to the country, because it had been said, a great reduction would be made both in the army and navy when the preliminaries of peace were signed. Could any man in the country be so ignorant as not to know this would be necessarily the consequence of that peace which by this time, he hoped, was nearly concluded? It had been customary to take sums on account for the military service of the year; but now the time was nearly come, at which it would be for ministers to state what the expence of our establishment should be in future. In the present situation of things, though he was far from imputing any feeling hostile to a general pacification, to any of the powers with whom he had to treat, he could see nothing to induce government to depart from the ordinary practice of making no material reductions on our army or navy till preliminaries of peace were signed. Though proofs of the most amicable disposition were given by the parties opposed to us in the negociations, still they had great interests to attend to; and questions might arise, on which the representative of this country would not be able to speak with sufficient weight, if a reduction of our army or navy preceded the discussion. Till the preliminaries were arranged, it was impossible for ministers to say what establishment would be necessary for the time to come.
Mr. Lushingtontook occasion to say, an arrangement would be made with respect to emigrants as soon as possible; but it would be a hard and an unfeeling thing to deprive them of their present income before they could be attendee to by their own government.
The report was then agreed to.