Commons Sitting of 26 November 1813

Preamble
The House was summoned to the Lords; where the royal assent was given, by commission, to the Loan Bill, the Malt Duty Bill, and the Local Token Bill.

MARINE MUTINY BILL.
On the question for the second reading of the Marine Mutiny Bill,
Mr. Bennetexpressed some surprise at this Bill being hurried through at such an early period of the session.
Sir George Warrendersaid, it was necessary that the marines, when serving on shore, should be subject to regulations similar to those of the land forces. The
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objection in point of time would have been better when his noble friend (lord Castlereagh) moved the Annual Mutiny Bill.
Mr. Manners Suttonobserved, that when the House had come to the resolution of the number of men to be voted for the service of the year, it appeared almost a matter of course, that the Mutiny Bill should be brought in for their regulations.
Mr. Whitbreadcould by no means agree with the hon. and learned gentleman, that this was a mere matter of course. Nothing but circumstances of a very peculiar nature could justify the highly unconstitutional introduction of a new Mutiny Bill, at a period so premature. The existing Act would not expire until the 25th of March. It had hitherto been the invariable practice not to introduce a new Bill, until such a period of the session as would just allow of its receiving the royal assent before the expiration of the old. It was certainly easy to see, that under the existing circumstances it might be convenient for parliament to give the crown the power which this Bill conveyed for 16 months, instead of for a year, as usual; but a district and good cause made be stated for so doings. If the hon. gentleman or the noble lord opposite would say, that under the present circumstances the approaching adjournment might be so much extended as to reader it a matter of inconvenience to pass the new Bill before the expiration of that now in force, he would not object to it; but he repeated, that something more was necessary than the explanation given by the hon. baronet.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he was perfectly prepared to concur in the general reasoning of the hon. gentleman on this subject; but he hoped, that under the peculiar circumstances of the present period, there was nothing to rouse the jealousy of parliament, or to induce them to believe that the crown wished to possess the power which this Bill conferred for any other purpose than for the sake of public convenience. In the existing state of affairs, it was the opinion of the crown, that the parliament might adjourn to a period so distant, probably the beginning of March, as would render it difficult to pass the new Bill before the expiration of the old one. He was sure the hon. gentleman, and all who heard him, would agree in the expediency of not running the slightest risk of having no law in existence on this subject. The Bill was proposed as a matter of essential convenience; and the adoption

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of it could not be adduced in future as a precedent, under circumstances of a dissimilar nature.
Mr. Whitbreadwas perfectly satisfied with the statement made by the noble lord. All that he was anxious about was, that the present practice should not form a precedent, which, if it were to pass wholly unnoticed, it might do. He should not have risen again, but for a single word which had dropped from the noble lord in the course of his observations. The noble lord had said, that in the judgment of "the crown," a long adjournment might take place. Now, as it was to be an adjournment, not a prorogation, he did not see what the judgment or opinion of the crown had to do with it.
Lord Castlereaghreplied, that it was by no means inconsistent with the prerogative of the crown to communicate to parliament the expediency of an adjournment for any particular purpose; which communication was generally answered by an adjournment, as a matter of course. All however, that he meant to say on the present occasion was, that in the judgment of the minister is of the crown, the general state of affairs was such, that the meeting of parliament, after the recess, might be deferred until a period somewhat later than ordinary.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.

EAST INDIA SUGAR DUTIES,
The House having, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, resolved itself into a committee on the East India Sugar Duties;
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a tone of voice which would not allow us distinctly to hear his statement, proceeded to make the propositions of which he had given notice. He observed, that considerable alarm had been excited among the West India interest on this subject, and that it was most desirable to afford that interest a just protection. It was his intention to propose such an increase of the duties on East India sugar, as, compared with the duties on west India sugar, would make them 10 s. a cwt. higher. That increase would be 6s. 6d. a cwt.; and he considered that it would afford a sufficient protection to the West India merchant. This higher duty, however, was to extend only to a certain price; and when sugar should be imported at 60 s. a cwt. the increased duty on
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East India sugar was to diminish 1s. on every shilling of advanced price. He had communicated on the subject with the best informed persons on both sides of the question; and he trusted, that the proposition which he was about to make would, under all the circumstances of the case, be considered the most expedient that parliament could adopt. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving his resolution.
Mr. Alderman Atkinsobserved, that the measure proposed by the right hon. gentleman might be very proper one as it regarded the dealers in sugar; but that permission to import East India sugar would materially affect and injure the shipping interest, by the great encouragement that it would afford to India-built shipping. He trusted, that the proposition would not be hastily acceded to, but that due time would be given for its consideration.
Mr. Bensonobserved, that opportunity would be given for its consideration during the progress of the Bill through the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the hon. gentleman who had just spoken had anticipated the observation he was about to make. He allowed, that the matter was of great importance, and deserved serious consideration. He could not think, however, with the worthy alderman, that the shipping interest would be materially affected by it, when he considered the disadvantages under which East India sugar must at all events come to this country. It was only brought as a dead weight, and in a certain degree to defray the expences of the vessels. It was by general trade, and not by the importation of sugar, that the East India shipping was augmented.
Mr. Marryattcompared the freedom of the East India trade with the restrictions under which that from the West Indies laboured. It was a well known fact, that for the last twenty years the West Indies had supplied the mother country with sugar at a much cheaper rate than that at which it had been manufactured. Half the estates in Jamaica and the other islands had in consequence been sold, or given up to creditors, with in that period. The duty had fallen on the plantar, not the consumer. It was true, that hitherto-ships from the East Indies had been chiefly ballasted with saltpetre. But how the trade would be open to all adventurers

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most of whom, not being able to procure saltpetre, would ballast their ships with sugar, to the utter ruin of the West Indies, in Bengal, sugar sold at 12 s. a cwt.; in the West Indies it was 30 s. being a difference of 18 s. a cwt. in favour of the East India planter. A Hindoo labourer (as had been stated in the committee of last session) cost but about 6s. a month—a West Indian, almost as much a day. The quality of the East India sugar also was excellent. It equalled the best of Barbadoes flake; and although it was not what our Custom-house officers called flake sugar, he was persuaded that it underwent some refining process in India. On all these considerations, it appeared to him, that the West India planters were fairly entitled to retain the monopoly of supplying this country, to which they paid every species of taxation that could well be devised. To the West Indies, at present, British, manufactures to the value of 7 or 8 millions sterling were annually exported. In the West India trade, 25,000 British seamen were employed. To the East Indies no manufactures would be exported; and in the trade, Lascars would be principally employed, to the great deterioration of our naval force. In fact, the East India trade had never been so productive of hands for the navy as that of the West Indies. Ships engaged in the latter were obliged to take a certain number of apprentices, in order to make good the drafts from them to supply the waste and casualties in his Majesty's navy: but this had not been the case with East Indiamen. The East Indies had ruined the West Indies wherever the two trades had interfered. They had destroyed the trade of the West Indies in indigo and cotton. The only staple commodity left to them was sugar, and of that he trusted they would not be deprived.
Mr. C. Idlecould not allow that the restrictions on the trade of the West Indies were so great as they had been represented by the hon. gentleman. They were permitted to export sugar, coffee and cocoa, to all parts south, of Cape Finisterre; and the other restraints were only nominal.
Mr. Alderman Atkinssaid, that, notwithstanding all he had heard, he must repeat, that the objections he had before mentioned still struck him to be of considerable importance. He viewed the Bill with jealousy, and was averse from the measure as it now stood; for he
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thought it would be the means of raising the price of sugar on the home-consumer; and as sugar was an article of necessity already bearing a very high price, any further rise of price must be very severely felt by our manufacturers, and all the lower classes of the people. He adverted to the large bounty on the exportation of sugar from this country to the continent, which he conceived ought to be diminished.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreferred the worthy alderman to the 35th of the King; by which it was provided, that as the price of sugar increased, that bounty should diminish; thereby making the foreigner participate in the burden.
Mr. W. Smithobserved, that the statements and reasoning which the committee had heard from gentlemen on both sides, with regard to this measure, but particularly from his hon. friend under the gallery (Mr. Marryatt), were calculated to excite very serious reflections, into the consideration of which, however, he did not at present propose to enter at any length. Still he could not help saying, that although he would be one of the last to recommend any proceeding likely to produce a convulsion in trade, or a serious injury to any class of merchants, the main object of legislative consideration being the interest of the public, he could see no objection to the revision of any commercial system to effect that object. Into this train of reflection he was naturally led by the comparison which had been drawn by his hon. friend (Mr. Marryatt), with respect to the produce of our West and East India possessions. According to his hon. friend, the produce of our western colonies was in every respect beaten out of the market by that of the east, with the exception only of sugar. Then it would appear, that the whole produce of the West India colonies was a forced cultivation, kept, up for some sinister purpose, merely to answer the ends of individuals, but by no means with the view to cheapen the price to the consumer—to answer the interest of the public. Was his hon. friend aware what an onus he imposed upon himself by this assertion?—that he became bound to prove this proposition, that advantages arose to this country from the East India monopoly, which more than counterbalanced the admitted disadvantage of an enhanced price of sugar to the public in order to favour the West Indian produce, by giving it a decided preference in our market to

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that of the East, as the measure before the committee proposed. In dwelling so much too upon the obligation imposed upon the West India planter, by our monopoly, to purchase British manufactures, was his hon. friend prepared to maintain this proposition, that the British manufactures were dearer than others, and that our colonists would rather deal for the others, if they were not restrained by the monopoly? Possibly his hon. friend might undertake to sustain the proposition; but obviously the undertaking would not be popular among our manufacturers, or perhaps likely to succeed. These reflections the hon. member said he thought it his, duty to throw out for the consideration of others; and he concluded, with expressing a hope, that the Bill which it was proposed to ground upon the Resolution before the committee, would not be brought to a conclusion until after the recess; as the fullest time should be afforded for the due examination of such an important measure.
Mr. Marryattsaid, he had no doubt, that should his hon. friend, who had just sat down, think proper to bring forward any proposition with respect to the commercial system of our West India colonies, the House would willingly give it all due consideration; for himself he should say, that he would be most ready to attend to it.
The Resolution was agreed to.