Commons Sitting of 18 November 1813

Preamble
Lord Castlereaghmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to explain and amend the Act of the 41st of his Majesty, relative to the circumstances under which persons, in official situations, could hold seats in that House. A question had arisen, as to the situation in which those persons stood, holding offices under the lord lieutenant of Ireland; and it had been doubted whether those persons appointed to fill offices by the lord lieutenant of Ireland must necessarily vacate their seats, like persons accepting situations under the crown. A question had also arisen, whether persons holding such offices under the lord lieutenant were not obliged by law to vacate their seats on a new lord lieutenant coming into power, as it was assumed that those appointed by the old lord lieutenant must go out of office with him. He apprehended that this was not necessary, any more than it was necessary that persons holding situations under the crown should resign them on the sovereignty being assumed by a regent. It might be very

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inconvenient if this were the law, as applied to the case of the chief secretary in Ireland. The question, however, might be raised in another quarter, and the individual proceeded against by way of penalty. He thought the chief secretary ought to be protected against such a proceeding. He therefore proposed, under all the circumstances, to bring in a Bill to explain and amend the said Act—Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS.
Mr. Horner, seeing a right hon. gentleman in his place (Mr. Bathurst), who, he thought, would be able to give him some explanation on a subject on which he had presented a petition in the present session, as he had before presented one in the summer, wished to ask, whether any and what steps were in progress for relieving the insolvent debtors in the Isle of Man?
Mr. Bathurstwas not satisfied that it was in his power to give the hon. and learned gentleman that detailed information which he might be anxious to receive. A Bill had been sent over from the local jurisdiction in the Isle of Man, the object of which was, to relieve the insolvent debtors there confined. This Bill had been laid before the privy council; and they, upon consideration, thought it right to recommend it to the crown to signify its dissent from the Bill. He believed the objection to that Bill was, that it was thought likely to open a door for persons, contracting debts in this country, to get relieved from such obligation, merely by going to the Isle of Man. Such, at least, it was imagined, might be the effect of this local measure. He, however, was not aware, that any objection was made to giving effect to such arrangements as would afford relief to those who were bona fide inhabitants of the Isle of Man, and whose debts were contracted in that island. It was the wish of government to allow them the benefit of the Insolvency Act, by putting them on the same footing as the insolvent debtors in this country.

CONVENTIONS WITH RUSSIA AND PRUSSIA.
Mr. Lushingtonreported from the Committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider the Conventions between his Majesty and the emperor of Russia and king of Prussia, the Resolutions which they had directed him to report to the House; and the same were read, and agreed to by the House; and are as follow:

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1. That it is expedient to make provision for enabling his Majesty to make good such engagements as may be subsisting or be contracted between his Majesty and foreign powers.

2. That provision be made for enabling his Majesty to defray the expences which may be incurred in the execution of two Conventions between his Majesty and their majesties the emperor of all the Russias and the king of Prussia, bearing date respectively the 30th day of September last, for the issue of a subsidy by the means of bills of credit, not exceeding the amount of 2,500,000 l. sterling, or fifteen millions of Prussian thalers principal money.

Ordered, That the first of the said Resolutions be referred to the committee of the whole House, to whom it is referred to consider further of the supply granted to his Majesty.—That a Bill be brought in upon the other of the said Resolutions; and that Mr. Lushington, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, lord viscount Castlereagh, and Mr. Bathurst, do prepare and bring it in.

MILITIA VOLUNTEERING BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the Militia Bill,
Alderman Curtisobserved, that as doubts had arisen with respect to the nature of this Bill as affecting the city of London, he was desired to "introduce" a clause into it [a laugh], to save the rights and privileges of that city. At the same time he had the happiness to state, that the common council had this day come to an unanimous resolution to have an application made to that House, which would be presented in the usual way on Monday or Tuesday next, for leave to bring in a Bill to allow the militias of the city of London to do the same as was proposed by the Bill before the House with regard to the other militia regiments throughout the country.
Lord Castlercaghsaid, that he should not object to the clause proposed, and expressed the gratification he derived from the statement of the hon. baronet adding that as the citizens of London had expressed such an honourable disposition to serve the common cause of their country it would be right to allow that they should render that service in the manner which they themselves thought proper to propose.
The clause which provided that this Bill should not extend to the city of London was accordingly adopted.
Mr. Whitbreadthen rose to bring forward a motion of which he had given notice, with regard to an amendment in the preamble of this Bill. He could not, he said, calculate upon being able to persuade the noble lord (Castlereagh) to assent to, or the House to adopt, the amendment which he had to submit; but yet he thought it proper to put on record the grounds upon which he was induced to give his support to ministers at this important crisis; namely, from a strong wish and confident expectation that the exertions which they had made, and which they were about to make, would tend to the attainment of the blessing of peace. He was not insensible to the burthens the country had to bear, or to the grievous weight which was to be added to those burthens by the resolutions to which the House had so lately assented; neither was he insensible to the invasion of the old constitutional practice which the measure under consideration involved, nor to the great injustice to which that measure was in its progress and execution calculated to subject many meritorious officers whose complaints had reached him, but whose case was obvious before those complaints were heard. He was not insensible either of the nature and tendency of the several similar expedients which had been resorted to, from time to time, to recruit our disposable force, and which expedients being from their character unfit and inadequate to their purpose, led to this last great exertion for the reinforcement of our army. He had also in his recollection several other points, which might at another time call for animadversion. The proposition, for instance, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, upon the subject of local tokens, was a direct confession with regard to the state of our silver currency; while the measure brought forward by the noble lord (Castlereagh) respecting the acceptance of foreign bills, for the accommodation of our allies, was obviously calculated to aggravate an evil long and justly complained of, by increasing the amount of our paper currency. But still, with all these considerations in his mind—with his eyes fully open respecting them, he was ready to support and confide in government, from a strong reliance upon its disposition to obtain peace; and this reliance particularly rested upon the noble lord (Castlereagh); many parts of whose speech, last night, he heard with peculiar gratification. From that speech,
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indeed, he was much more satisfied than he had ever felt before. The conduct of the war with America the hon. gentleman also thought deserving of particular attention; and therefore he would lay in his claim at a proper opportunity to consider those parts of that conduct which deemed questionable; but, at present he would abstain from the discussion of that and the other points to which he had referred, and indeed, from any topic likely to occasion trouble to ministers; being willing to leave them wholly unincumbered and disengaged, to devote their minds and exertions to the attainment of a lasting and honourable peace. Still he wished to record on the Journals the grounds upon which he was so willing to give his support to ministers, by proposing to insert the following paragraph in the preamble of the Bill, namely, "for bringing the war to a speedy and happy termination; and obtaining the blessings of peace upon terms of reciprocity, honour, and security to all the belligerent power." Recurring to the speech of the noble lord (Castlereagh), the hon. gentleman repeated, that from some parts of it he drew a much happier augury than the tone and temper of the Prince Regent's Speech or any thing he had heard before, was calculated to produce; and he meant particularly, that immediately after the battle of Vittoria, ministers had communicated their readiness to accept the proffered mediation of Austria. In selecting that happy moment, which was so well calculated to inspire high and triumphant, ideas to express their disposition towards peace, ministers had evinced a character eminently deserving of his confidence; and if there were any part of the administration more disposed towards peace than another, he had no hesitation in expressing his readiness to fortify that part, by seconding any measure which it thought proper to bring forward with a view to the attainment of such a desirable object. The hon. member repeated that he had no hope that his amendment would be adopted; and it was, no doubt; consistent with the noble lord's views to oppose its adoption; for his proposition was, he understood, conceived to involve a reflection upon former administrations, whom he viewed, he must confess, with a jealousy upon this subject, which certainly did not apply to his Majesty's present ministers.
The amendment being put,
Lord Castlereaghrose and declared his

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objection to the motion; because he should conceive it a dereliction of his duly, to acquiesce in an amendment which would imply that this measure was brought forward in a different spirit and with a different view from that which had characterized other measures of a similar nature, to which this House had assented. He fully concurred with the hon. member in a wish for peace; but he trusted the House and the country would not conceive that peace was in the hands of his Majesty's ministers. They knew the enemy with whom they had to contend—and the perhaps, still more formidable character of the enemy with whom they had to negotiate. They concurred with the hon. member in an anxious wish for peace; but they were resolved to look for a peace not only fair and honourable, but such as should hold out a reasonable prospect of secure repose to the country after the arduous and long protracted contest in which it had been engaged—not such as might do little else than lead the country to disarm, merely to place itself at, the mercy of the enemy. His Majesty's ministers were not willing to disguise from themselves, or from the country, the dangers which might belong to peace, any more than the dangers and calamities incident to war. Their object was, a lasting and honourable peace; and upon this subject, he would adopt the language of the emperor of Austria, who stated, that he would rather incur all the risks of war, than remain in peace subject to the dread of daily aggression or perpetual convulsion. He therefore deprecated the idea of imposing upon the country by the mere sound of peace; but it should be prompted to look for that solid and satisfactory arrangement which was alone to be valued, and for which he had no doubt that the hon. mover was as solicitous as any other individual whatever. The hon. member was correct in the passage which he had thought proper to quote from what he (lord C) addressed to the House last night with respect to the communication of his Majesty's ministers to the allies after the battle of Vittoria. They certainly did authorise Russia to accept the mediation of Austria; accompanying the authority by a statement of the principles which should govern the negotiation, and particularly including an inviolable adherence to the faith by which this country stood pledged to its allies. The proposition of Austria was however, rejected by the
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enemy; and that rejection, demonstrating his real temper, served to unite that great power with the allies. But the disposition which his Majesty's ministers manifested on that occasion they still retained. Whenever a fair opportunity for negociation or a rational prospect of peace offered, they would not fail to embrace it; but they could never forget either the enemy with whom they had to contend, or the enemy with whom they had to negociate.
Mr. W. Smith, feeling, in common with every man in this country, the most lively joy at the prospects which brightened upon us, would not throw any impediment in the way of ministers, and, if he thought this motion intended to oppose them, would not support it; but he thought its tendency very different. He considered it not amiss to state specific reasons for acceding to a measure like the present, at this time. He certainly thought that the militia would be more likely to volunteer, if it was understood that the end of their, exertions would be the acquirement of a secure peace; for he was not alarmed by, the noble lord's exposition of his view of peace; he regarded it in the same light, and wished for no other than that which, his lordship had described. But in saying this, he must own that he did not consider it as so near. He thought we should still have an arduous struggle before we could conquer such a peace as, after all we had done, and all the world had suffered, we were entitled to expect. He wished the words to be added to the preamble of the Bill, for the satisfaction of the country, and the popularity of the measure.
Mr. Whitbreadwished to explain, that he always thought it impossible to conclude any peace but such as that which the noble lord contemplated. He declared most sincerely, that in all the efforts which he had made in former sessions, and under different circumstances, to create a pacific disposition in the government of the country, he never advocated peace on other grounds than those now mentioned. He wished it to have been tried, because he thought that it had not properly been done; and that, if attempted in the spirit of sincerity, it might have succeeded. When, in contemplation of a great, arduous, and protracted struggle, he was willing to augment the means of ministers, to free them from all shackles of opposition, and to lavish the resources of the country; surely no one could doubt for

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what purpose he would allow such exertions and such sacrifices to be made, or suppose that he, did not mean a secure and an honourable peace. He wished the government to make those redoubled exertions; and if our candour and moderation did not prevail over the enemy, and incline him to peace, if he obstinately sacrificed the repose of Europe to the prosecution of his ambitious designs, and reason and justice were equally powerless upon him; then, instead of lowering our tone, or humiliating ourselves, he wished the country and government to appear ready to make still greater exertions, that they might at last be crowned with success.
Mr. C. W. Wynnewould think such interference as the present necessary, if he saw any indisposition in ministers to enter fairly into the question of peace. But he perceived no symptoms of that kind in their conduct, and on that ground could not accede to his hon. friend's motion. If the words which he proposed had been originally in the preamble to the Bill, he should not have objected to them, but he thought their introduction unnecessary. In looking to peace, we only could look for a safe and permanent one; and none could be safe and permanent, that was not founded on the reduction of the enemy's power.
The question was then put and negatived.
The Bill was read a third time; and, after some observations from Mr. Wynne and lord Castlereagh, the various clauses were agreed to, and the Bill was passed.