Commons Sitting of 22 February 1813

PETITIONS RESPECTING THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Petitions against the Claims of the Roman Catholics were presented from the archdeacon and clergy of Bucks, the archdeacon of Northampton and clergy of Peterborough, from Mr. Wilson, from the mayor, &c. of Penzance, the inhabitants of Monaghan, the gentlemen, clergy and freeholders of Merioneth, from Mr. Wilson, from the inhabitants and freeholders of Fermanagh, the mayor, &c. of New Sarum, the mayor, &c. of Drogheda, the inhabitants of Exeter, the gentlemen, clergy, &c. of Carnarvon, the Protestants, &c. of Westmeath, and the mayor, &c. of Appleby.—Petitions were also presented from Mr. Mac Donnell a Roman Catholic, and from the Roman Catholics of Tyrone.

PETITIONS RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
Petitions respecting the renewal of the East India Company's charter were presented from the borough of Elgin, the merchants of Newcastle upon Tyne, the lord provost, &c. of Perth, the clothiers, &c, of Gloucester, the London rope makers, the inhabitants of South Molton, and the

659
setters and calenderers of the East India Company.

PETITION OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY FOR THE RENEWAL OF THEIR CHARTER.
A Petition of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, in approaching the House with an application for a continuance of the system by which the relation between Great Britain and the East Indies is now regulated, hope they may be permitted to state the outlines of the history of the establishment of the petitioners, as well as their present situation as to their property and rights, their functions and obligations; and that the first adventurers in a trade from England to the East Indies, by the way of the Cape of Good Hope, were incorporated by queen Elizabeth, by her royal letters patent, bearing date the 31st day of December 1601, by the stile of "The governor and company of merchants of London trading into the East Indies," to whom, by the same instrument, the exclusive right of trading to that country was granted by her said majesty for a term of 15 years from Christmas then last past; and that the corporate capacity of the said governor and company of merchants of London trading into the East Indies, with the privilege of the exclusive trade, was renewed revived and confirmed to them in perpetuity by several charters or letters patent, granted respectively by king James the 1st, king Charles the 2nd, king James the 2nd, and king William and queen Mary, subject nevertheless to a provision, that, if the continuance of any of their charters, in the whole or in part, should not be profitable to the realm, that upon three years warning to be given to the said company, all the said charters should cease determine and be void; and that the said governor and company were empowered by their charters to establish factories and settlements in the East Indies, to have the government of such factories and settlements, and to appoint governors with a judicial power to equip and maintain military forces by sea and land for the defence of their settlements, with the power of making peace and war with any princes or people who were not Christians, within any places of their trade, to make reprisals from those persons, in those parts, from whom they should sustain any loss
660
or injury, to erect castles, fortifications, forts, and garrisons, and also to coin Indian money; and that, by virtue of these powers, the said governor and company made settlements, and built forts and factories, at different places in the East Indies, at a very great expense, which settlements, forts, and factories, with some territory annexed to them, were purchased from the native princes of the countries within their limits; the sovereignty remained with their respective chiefs, but the immediate government of those acquisitions was exercised by the company under the powers which are before mentioned to have been granted to them by charter; and the said company made also a settlement in the island of Saint Helena, on its being abandoned by the Dutch, about the year 1651; and that the property and sovereignty in and over the port and island of Bombay having been ceded by the king of Portugal to king Charles the 2nd, as part of the dowry of the infanta of Portugal on her marriage with king Charles, his said majesty by his royal letters patent, bearing date the 27th day of March 1669, granted and conveyed unto the said governor and company, their successors and assigns, the property thereof, with all the rights profits territories and appurtenances, and constituted them the true and absolute lords and proprietors of the port and island, in the most unlimited manner, saving to his majesty his heirs and succesors, his royal sovereignty of and over the inhabitants there; but his majesty granted the authority of immediate civil and military government of the place to the company; and Saint Helena having been taken from the said company by the Dutch in the war of 1674, was re-taken by a force belonging to king Charles the 2nd, who, by his royal letters patent bearing date the 16th day of December 1674, re-granted that island, with all the rights, profits, territories, and appurtenances whatsoever, unto the said governor and company, their successors and assigns, and his majesty constituted them the true and absolute lords and proprietors thereof, saving the allegiance due to his majesty, his heirs and successors; and the said charter contained powers and authorities for the government and defence of the said island; and that, by an act of parliament passed in the 9th year of king William the 3rd, for raising a sum of two millions by loan for the public service, it was enacted, that all the subscribers to the said loan should

661
be intitled to traffic and use the trade of merchandize in such places, and by such ways and passages as were then already frequented found out or discovered, or which thereafter should be found out or discovered, and as they severally should esteem to be fittest or best for them, in to and from the East Indies, in the countries and parts of Asia and Africa, and in to and from the islands ports havens cities creeks towns and places of Asia, Africa, and America, or any of them, beyond the Cape of Bona Esperanza to the Streights of Magellan, where any trade or traffic of merchandize was or might be used or had, and to and from every of them: and, by the said act, his majesty was empowered to incorporate any of the subscribers who should desire to trade with a joint stock; and it was enacted, that at any time, upon three years notice, after the 29th day of September 1711, upon repayment by parliament of the said sum of two millions, or such part thereof as should be advanced, all the corporations to be created in pursuance of that act, and the benefit of trade thereby given, should absolutely cease and determine; and it was enacted that all such persons as should have a right of trading by virtue of that act should have the sole and exclusive trade within the limits before-mentioned; and that the said sum of two millions was subscribed within the time limited by the said act; and thereupon, by a charter bearing date the 5th day of September 1698, his said majesty was pleased to incorporate the larger part of the subscribers to the said loan, by the stile of "The English company trading to the East Indies;" and, by the said charter, powers of making settlements, and governing them, and maintaining military forces for their defence, were granted to the English company, similar to those which are before stated to have been granted to the old company, since distinguished by the appellation of the London company; the sovereign right, power, and dominion, over all the settlements to be made, being reserved to his said majesty; and that the above act of parliament and charter would have operated to have extinguished and determined the corporate capacity and privileges of the London company; but the act contained a provision that they should have liberty to trade till the 29th of September 1701, and the London company having subscribed the sum of 315,000 l. towards the
662
sum of 2,000,000 l. to be raised, became entitled to trade in respect of it; and therefore, by an act of parliament passed in the 12th year of king William the 3rd, their corporate capacity was contiuned to them, subject, nevertheless, to be determined upon the redemption of the fund established by the said act of the 9th of his said majesty's reign; and that the said English company acquired and settled several factories in the East Indies, at a very large expense; and that, previous to the erection of the English company, the London company had carried on their trade with the East Indies in competition with the Portuguese and Dutch and French companies, and also in competition with unlicensed adventurers from Great Britain who traded there, notwithstanding the exclusive grants which the London company was in possession of, and which unlicensed adventurers, at times, acquired considerable ascendency amongst the native powers, and, after the incorporation of the English company, they became also competitors in the said trade; and that no European nation having then acquired any considerable territorial dominion, the whole of the trade by Europeans was carried on entirely at the despotic will and sufferance of the native princes of the Mogul empire; the government and officers of which almost constantly showed their favour and protection to such of the competitors from whom they could obtain the largest presents; and in proportion as they protected one of them, they oppressed the others; as an instance of which, the petitioners show, that the servants of the English company in India, by means of corrupt influence with the ministers and servants of the Mogul, procured all the principal officers and members of the presidency of the London company at Surat, then the chief seat of their trade in India, to be imprisoned for several seasons, and wholly to interrupt their commercial transactions; and that the London company and the English company, finding, that if their competition had continued, ruin must have ensued to both, agreed, about the year 1702, to unite together: the union was effected by force of two several indentures, dated respectively the 22d day of July 1702, one being an indenture tripartite, made between her late majesty queen Anne of the first part, the said London company of the second part, and the said English company of the third part; and the other

663
being an indenture quinquepartite, made between the said London company of the first part, the said English company of the second part, and certain persons, trustees of property belonging to the London company, of the third, fourth, and fifth parts, and by force of an act of parliament, passed in the 6th year of the reign of queen Anne, and of an award of the earl of Godolphin, the lord high treasurer of Great Britain, dated the 29th day of September 1708; and that by the terms of the union, all the property and rights belonging to both companies, at home and abroad, including the settlements, forts, factories, and territories, which they had acquired as is above stated, were valued, and, in consideration of the value of the property of the London company being paid or allowed in account to them, they, by proper legal instruments, transferred and made over all their property to the English company, and the English company were allowed, in account, the value of their property; and the property and rights of both companies were thenceforth vested in them, for the benefit of the united concern; and the London company having completed the transfer of its property, surrendered its corporate capacity; and from thenceforth the English company took the stile of "The united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies;" which is now the stile of the petitioners; and that the petitioners crave leave to draw the attention of the House to some part of the subjects of which the property of the petitioners consisted at the time of the union of the two companies in 1702, and which they derived by transfer from them, with the cognizance and sanction of her majesty queen Anne, and of the parliament; amongst other things, the petitioners were then entitled to and possessed of the islands of Bombay and Saint Helena, the sovereignty of which was vested in the crown of Great Britain; they were entitled to and possessed of the factories of Surat, Swally, Broach, Amadavad, Agra, and Lucknow: on the coast of Malabar, they were entitled to and possessed of the forts of Carwar, Tellicherry, and Angengo, and the factory of Callicut: on the coast of Coromandel they were entitled to and possessed of Fort St. George, with the castle, fortifications, and territory thereto belonging, on which a large city called Madras was built, the houses of which belonged to and paid rent to the petitioners;
664
Fort Saint David, being a strong fort and factory, and about three miles compass of the circumjacent country, on which several small towns and villages were erected; the factories of Codolore, Porto Novo, Pettipolee, Madapollam, and the fort and factory of Vizagapatam: in Bengal, the petitioners were entitled to and possessed of Fort William and the town of Calcutta, with a large territory thereto belonging; the factories of Ballasore, Cossimbuzar, Dacca, Hughly, Maulda, Rajamaul, and Patna, and all these possessions were subject to the sovereignty of the great mogul: on the island of Sumatra, the petitioners were entitled to and possessed of York Fort at Bencoolen, and a factory with a territory of about five miles thereto belonging, and a factory at Indrapore; and that, after the union of the two companies, the petitioners conducted themselves so as to conciliate and acquire the confidence of the natives of India, and for a considerable period of time they had no occasion to use the right which they enjoyed of maintaining a military force, except for purposes little beyond those of police, and as guards of their fortifications against surprize; but near the middle of the last century it became necessary for the petitioners to enlarge their military force, and to exercise the power of war, and of making political engagements with some of the native powers, to support the British interests in India, and in order to counteract the intrigues of the French, who had become auxiliaries to other native powers, with the design of driving the petitioners out of the East Indies, and of excluding the British nation wholly from Asiatic commerce; but by means of the forces raised and maintained by the petitioners, and at their sole expence, the petitioners completely defeated those objects; so that, at the conclusion of the war which ended in the year 1763, the French were left without one single settlement, and almost without influence, in any part of Asia; and that, in the year 1757, the nabob of Bengal permitted the petitioners to establish a mint at Calcutta; and in the same year the said nabob made over to the petitioners the property in certain lands in Bengal, generally called the twenty-four purgunhas, and the saltpetre lands of the whole province of Bahar; and in the year 1738, the petitioners obtained a grant from the said nabob for the free tenure of the town of Calcutta, discharged

665
from the rent to which, to that time, it had been subject; in the year 1759, the soubah of the Decan made over to the petitioners the whole of the circar of Masulipatam, with eight districts, as well as the circar of Nizampatam and the districts of Condavir and Wacalmanner; in the year 1763, the nabob of Arcot made over to the petitioners several districts of land surrounding Madras, which lands have since been called the jaghire of the petitioners; and such transfer was confirmed in the year 1765 by the said nabob, and also by the great mogul; in the year 1764, the mogul made over to the petitioners the country of Gauze Poor and the rest of the zemindary of rajah Bulwant Sing; in the year 1765, the great mogul granted to the petitioners the country called the Northern Circars; and in the following year such grant was acceded to by the soubah; and in the year 1765, the great mogul appointed the petitioners, in perpetuity, to the office of dewan of the provinces of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, such appointment being made as a free gift; and by virtue of such grant the petitioners, in the execution of the office, acquired the right of collection of all the revenues of the said provinces, for their own use, free from any account thereof to be rendered; and that the petitioners crave leave to remark, that no part of the property in any of the forts, factories, or territories, which became vested in the petitioners at the time of the union of the two companies, nor any of the territories nor rights lastly hereinbefore mentioned to have been granted to the petitioners, were acquired by conquest, but by purchase, by means of pecuniary payments, or by services rendered to, or other good considerations moving the grantors; and that, about the year 1767, a claim was made on the part of the public to the beneficial interest in the territorial acquisitions and revenues then lately obtained there, and thereupon agreements have been made from time to time that the possession of such acquisitions and revenues should remain with the petitioners, upon a participation of the profit of the revenue between the public and the petitioners, as mentioned in several acts of parliament made and passed at different times since 1767, without prejudice to the claims of the public or of the petitioners; and that, previous to the year 1773, the government of the settlements and acquisitions in India was conducted under the uncontrouled direction
666
of the petitioners, by virtue of the powers of government which they derived from their charters; but, ever since the year 1773, the mode of the immediate government of India has been regulated by parliament; and from that time to the year 1784, in pursuance of directions of acts of parliament, the lords commissioners of his Majesty's treasury, and one of his Majesty's principal secretaries of state, in their several departments, were made acquainted with the correspondence and orders sent to and received from India by the petitioners, in any way relating to the management of the revenue, or civil or military affairs and government of the petitioners in that country; and from the year 1784 to the present time, all acts, operations and concerns, which in any ways have related to or concerned the civil or military government or revenues of the territories and acquisitions in the East Indies, have been placed under the superintendence and controul of certain commissioners appointed by his Majesty, in pursuance of acts of parliament passed for that purpose; and the petitioners have been restrained from giving any orders or directions relative thereto, without the concurrence of the said commissioners; and in cases in which the said commissioners have been of opinion that the subject matter of any of their deliberations, concerning the levying war or making peace, or treating or negotiating with any of the native princes or states in India, communicated in orders to any of the governments in India, have been of a nature to require secrecy, such orders have been sent through the medium of a secret committee of three of the court of directors of the petitioners, according to the provisions in that case made by parliament, without any privity of the petitioners, or of their court of directors, and without any discretionary authority on the part of the members of such secret committee; and that, between the period when such claim as herein before mentioned was first made, on the part of the public, to the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies, and the year 1793, a further acquisition of territory was made in India; and that the term heretofore granted to the petitioners in the exclusive trade to the East Indies, being about to be redeemed in the year 1794, an act of parliament was made and passed in the 33d year of his present majesty, whereby it was enacted, amongst many other things, that

667
the territorial acquisitions in certain former acts mentioned, together with the territorial acquisitions then lately obtained in the East Indies, with the revenues thereof respectively, should continue in the possession of the petitioners during the further term by that act granted in the said exclusive trade; and that the petitioners should have the exclusive trade within the limits mentioned in the said act of parliament passed in the 9th year of king William the 3rd, subject nevertheless to such right of trading as is thereby given to individuals, to be carried on in the manner therein mentioned, and subject to a proviso to determine such right at any time, upon three years notice to be given by parliament, after the 1st day of March 1811, upon the expiration of the said three years, and upon payment made to the petitioners of any sum or sums which, under the provisions of any act of that session of parliament, should or might, upon the expiration of the said three years, become payable to the petitioners by the public, according to the true intent and meaning of such act; but it was enacted, that nothing in that proviso, or in any proviso in the said act in the 9th year of king William the 3rd, in the said charter of the 5th of September, in the 10th year of his reign, or in any other act or charter, should extend to determine the corporation of the petitioners; and, by the said act, certain appropriations were made of all the profits arising from the territorial acquisitions and revenues in India, and also from the sale of goods, and all other profits of the petitioners in Great Britain, during the time of the exclusive trade thereby granted to the petitioners; and that the notice required by the last mentioned act hath been given by the Speaker of the House, for determining the exclusive trade of the petitioners on the 10th day of April 1814; and that, since the passing the said last mentioned act, a further acquisition of territory and revenue in India has been made, and is now in the possession of the petitioners; and the petitioners also show that they have taken all the forts and factories which belonged to the French, Dutch, and Danes in Hindostan; and the petitioners are now in possession as well of the territories mentioned in the said lastmentioned act as of those which have been since acquired, and the British dominions in India, without a rival, or any enemy, now consist of a very large proportion of
668
the peninsula, besides very extensive provinces in the north of Hindostan, and contain, as it is supposed, above fifty millions of inhabitants, and have been acquired wholly at the expence and risk of the petitioners, without any charge whatever to the British exchequer, for, though land forces belonging to his majesty have been employed, in conjunction with the forces raised by the petitioners, yet the whole of the expence of such forces of his majesty, whilst they have been employed in such service, as well as for their passage out and home, and in recruiting, has been defrayed by the petitioners; besides which, for a considerable length of time, the petitioners furnished or paid for victualling and stores for the use of his majesty's ships of war in the East Indies; and that the petitioners beg leave humbly to represent, that the welfare and happiness of the inhabitants of the countries which have come under the care of the petitioners has been their chief object, and they have reason to hope and believe that the amelioration of the condition of the people is most eminently conspicuous; when Hindostan was first visited by British traders, and long after the union of the two companies before-mentioned, when the opposition, not only of British subject against British subject, but of European against European, and the corrupt and impolitic attempts which were constantly made by one party to raise the despotic power of the Indian states against other parties, had in some measure ceased, the character of the native governments, as well as of the native individuals, remained unchanged, the ill usage which they had received from individual and associated Europeans roaming about without responsibility or controul, raised a jealousy and animosity against every stranger without distinction, and the internal state of the country, where justice and injustice were equally articles of traffic to be bought and sold, left the rights of persons and property entirely at hazard; and that the petitioners found the country divided into many different states, all feudatory to the mogul, who was considered the sole proprietor of the whole; these states were again divided among zemindars and chiefs, with other designations, under whom there were sub-infeudations, down to the ryots, who were the actual cultivators of the soil, and no man held any land, and scarcely a crop, but at the will of another of superior power; there

669
were no effectual means of resort for the support of any right, or the avenging any wrong, and the will of the strongest was the only practical rule of conduct which was established; and that, under the management of the petitioners, the scene has been entirely changed; by fixing certain permanent and invariable rents, a new and valuable property has been, as it were, created to the natives; by the establishment of courts of justice, and the appointment of liberal emoluments to those who devote their lives to the study and administration of laws adapted to the usages, customs, and religions of the inhabitants, they have removed temptations to corruption, and have provided the means for the inhabitants to be insured in the enjoyment of properly thus created for them; courts of criminal judicature have also been universally erected, which have effectually provided for personal liberty and security; and by the alterations which have taken place, the practical means of foreign commerce, of traffic from port to port and internally, have been facilitated, very greatly to its increase; and, that it may not be supposed that the petitioners have assumed merits which they are not entitled to, they beg leave to refer to the Fifth Report of the select committee of the House on the affairs of the East India company, which was presented to the House on the 28th day of July last; and that, notwithstanding the ameliorated condition of the natives of India under the government of the petitioners, to which they have been accustomed, yet the tranquillity of the country is not maintained by a physical force, but chiefly by moral influence, and in a great degree even by prejudice; any change would alarm them, and their submission to British authority would be greatly endangered by an unrestrained resort of Europeans in search of wealth, either by commerce or other means, at distances from the principal seats of government, or in such numbers at those seats as to be beyond the controul of the governors, and by the resort of persons who may not have such connection with (and interest to uphold) the authority of the ruling power, as will insure the utmost care in their conduct, not only not to irritate but positively to conciliate the natives with whom they may have dealings; and the petitioners beg leave to represent, that their military establishments, artillery, and marine, have been of other most important advantages to this
670
nation, in as much as, in the several European wars in which this country has been engaged since the peace of Aix-la-Chapelle, the forces of the petitioners alone, or in conjunction with the forces of his majesty at the expence of the petitioners, have taken all the settlements belonging to the Europeans on the continent of India with whom this nation has been at war, and such captures have formed part of the price of national peace, without any compensation to the petitioners; and that, upon the suggestion of his majesty's ministers, the petitioners sent a large force from India into Egypt, by the Red Sea, to co-operate with his Majesty's forces against the French, in the year 1801; and, in the present war, by expeditions equipped from India, all the possessions of the French, Dutch, and Danes, in the East, have been conquered; and though, as to such of those expeditions the accounts of which have been settled, the petitioners have been allowed considerable sums on the part of the public, yet such allowances were calculated to reimburse only a part of the vast expenditure actually advanced by them for those great national objects; and that the petitioners humbly hope they will be found to have been as attentive to, and as successful in, the cultivation of the trade with China as they have been with respect to the concerns in India; the peculiarities of the Chinese, and the delicacy attendant upon any intercourse with them, must be too well known as matter of history to every member of the House, to require any statement of it in this Petition; it will be sufficient to inform the House, that it is but a little more than one hundred years since any trade whatever has been carried on between this country and China; and that at this time about 46,000 tons of shipping are employed by the petitioners therein, and that they entertain in China for the purposes of that trade a regular establishment of servants called supra cargoes, and others of inferior ranks, whose business it is to keep up a connection with the few merchants, or more properly mercantile officers of the Chinese government, who are deputed to manage on the part of the Chinese all the commercial transactions between Great Britain and China; by this means the trade has been cherished and preserved through and notwithstanding many perils arising from circumstances apparently trivial, and the fatal consequences of which

671
could only have been averted by the most delicate conduct, and by the whole commercial concerns of the British nation being confided to one united authority; and that the petitioners feel it incumbent upon them to submit to the House an abstract of their financial operations since the arrangement contained in the above mentioned act of the 33rd year of his present Majesty was made; at that time the capital stock of the petitioners amounted to the sum of 5,000,000 l.; since that period, in pursuance of an act passed for that purpose, the capital stock has been encreased by the sum of 1,000,000 l. contributed by the subscribers at the rate of 200 l. per cent.; and that at the time when the act of the 33rd of his Majesty was passed, sundry debts incurred in the defence and protection of the British possessions in India, bearing interest, were then due and owing by the petitioners, amounting to 7,000,000 l. sterling, or thereabouts; since that period the said debt has been very much increased for the same purpose, and great part of such increased debt was raised upon loans, by the terms of which the creditors were entitled to the option of being paid off in India or by bills of exchange to be drawn upon London, and upon such obligations becoming due, the petitioners have been obliged to provide out of their funds and credit at home, the means of paying bills of exchange drawn upon them since the year 1807, to the amount of 10,902,924 l. sterling, in discharge of Indian debt, and the debt contracted for political purposes, now remaining due in India, according to the latest advices from thence, amounts to the sum of 26,000,000 l. or thereabouts, over and besides the sum of 3,000,000 l. reduced 3 percent, annuities, and the sum of 1,400,000 l. consolidated 3 per cent. annuities, on which the sum of 2,500,000 l. sterling was raised, in pursuance of an act passed in the last session of parliament, to enable the petitioners to pay bills of exchange, which had been drawn upon them from India, in part discharge of the Indian-debt, as hereinbefore mentioned, and also over and besides the sum of 2,202,000 l. or thereabouts, now owing by the petitioners upon bills of exchange not yet due, but payable in London, and which have been drawn in India, in further part discharge of the said Indian debt; and that the revenues of the territorial acquisitions in India, in the possession of the petitioners, in the year 1793 amounted to the
672
annual sum of 8,000,000 l. or thereabouts, and by the latest account and estimates received from the East Indies, the revenues of the territorial acquisitions, now in the possession of the petitioners, amounts to the annual sum of 16,000,000 l. or thereabouts, but the civil and military expenses of the government have proportionably increased: and that the profits of the trade carried on by the petitioners since the year 1793, to the latest period to which the accounts can be correctly estimated, have amounted to the sum of 6,289,405 l., over and above the commercial charges of the petitioners, and beyond the payment of interest on their bond debt in England, and besides the dividends from time to time paid on the capital stock of the petitioners, according to the directions of the said act, passed in the 33rd year of his present Majesty; and that in 1793, the bond debt in England of the petitioners amounted to the sum of 3,200,000 l., or thereabouts, since which, by an act passed in the year 1797, they have been empowered to raise money by increasing their capital stock, by the amount of 2,000,000 l. but they have not availed themselves of that resource, but, under the authority of several acts of parliament, they have raised money upon bond, and their bond debt in England now amounts to the sum of 5,409,325 l., but the petitioners are entitled by law to issue bonds to the amount of 7,000,000 l. in the whole; and that the annual interest upon the present amount of the Indian debt now amounts to the sum of 1,600,000 l., or thereabouts, and as by the terms of the loans on which such money was raised, the creditors are entitled to receive their interest by payment of money in India, or by bills of exchange, to be drawn and made payable in London, at rates favourable to the holders; and, judging from the amount drawn within the last half year, the petitioners estimate that the annual sum of 1,500,000 l. or thereabouts, will be necessary to be provided annually in London for the payment of such interest, besides which, although the several sums of money payable in respect of the reduced and consolidated annuities, (on which the said sum of 2,500,000 l. was raised by virtue of the said act of the last session of parliament) for interest and sinking fund attendant thereon, amounting altogether to the annual sum of 242,820 l., are expressly charged upon the revenues of the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies, yet the petitioners are bound by

673
the said act, at all events, to pay such sums of money into the Bank of England, in manner in the said act mentioned; and the petitioners will also be obliged to provide, in London, the interest and other charges which may be attendant upon any further loan which may be necessary, in consequence of the said further sum of 2,202,000 l., part of the Indian debt, for which bills of exchange, drawn upon the petitioners, are now outstanding; and it is estimated that political charges (including payments to be made to the creditors of the late nabobs of the Carnatic) consequential upon the Indian territory, to the annual amount of 910,000 l. or thereabouts, will be to be defrayed in England; and as, from the best estimates which can be made, there appears but little reason to expect (without a considerable reduction of the military expences of the petitioners in India) that there should be any sufficient surplus revenue to be remitted for those purposes, the petitioners apprehend that the punctual discharge of the pecuniary obligations of the petitioners in relation thereto, as well as the payment of the interest upon their bond debt in England, and the dividends on their capital stock, will depend most essentially upon the trade to be carried on by the petitioners; and that, in pursuance of several acts of parliament since 1807, the petitioners have increased their bond debt in England by the sum of 2,409,325 l.; and in pursuance of an act passed in the 50th year of his present Majesty, the petitioners have borrowed exchequer bills of the public to the amount of 1,500,000 l.; and by virtue of an act passed in the last session, as hereinbefore mentioned, the petitioners raised on loan, by way of reduced and consolidated annuities, the sum of 2,500,000 l.; and all such sums of money, together with the said sum of 6,289,405 l., which has arisen from the surplus profits of the trade carried on by the petitioners, as herein-before mentioned, have been absorbed by payment of debts and expences incurred in respect of the territorial acquisitions in India; and that in the expeditions on the part of the British nation against the European enemies of his Majesty, and by advances for his Majesty's navy and other public services, the petitioners have incurred very large expences, which they submit they are entitled to be reimbursed by the public; and the petitioners compute, that after allowing such sum as they are indebted
674
to the public for the loan of exchequer bills, to the amount of 1,500,000 l. as herein-before mentioned, pursuant to an act for that purpose, passed in the last session of parliament, and after allowing such sums as the petitioners are indebted to his Majesty for troops in India, and for recruiting, the sum of 2,294,426 l., at the least, will he found due to the petitioners; and that the petitioners have now exhibited, they hope, with candour, the real situation of their affairs, and of the British trade, and relations with the East Indies and China; the petitioners do not presume to offer an opinion whether any other arrangements than those which have taken place would have led to results equally or more advantageous than have arisen to their country, but they apprehend it to be quite undeniable that the privileges entrusted to the petitioners have produced a large quantity of positive benefit to the British empire, and they submit that any material change in the Indian system would be matter of experiment, for which there can be no sufficient data from which its success can be calculated; and that the petitioners feel it to be their duty to express to the House their sincere opinion that the public interest cannot be better consulted than by continuing the petitioners, as the sole organs and channel both for the trade with and the government of India, upon the principles established by the act of the 33d year of his Majesty's reign, with such variations as to the financial appropriations, and in some other points of detail, as present circumstances require, and experience has pointed out; the petitioners ask not for an exclusive trade upon the narrow principles of monopoly, for the mere purpose of commercial gain; they have under their care interests of a much more extended and liberal nature, which it is their duty to attend to; the petitioners are ready to become parties to any arrangement which shall be consistent with their rights, and the security of British India, and which will not deprive them of the means of fulfilling their pecuniary engagements with the public and individuals, or the performance of the functions which may be continued or allotted to them; and they hope they will not be deemed presumptuous in humbly submitting their opinion, considered and re-considered, that the opening the trade with China in any degree would endanger its existence altogether; and that the petitioners

675
have at no time contemplated any alteration even in the export trade to the East Indies without considerable doubt and hesitation; but they are firmly of opinion that the unrestrained liberty of importation from that country, otherwise than through the medium of their establishments in London, would produce effects which every well-wisher to his country must deprecate, and which would put to extreme hazard any pledge on their part for the good government of India, or the performance of their obligations; the petitioners submit that they would not be justified in becoming parties to any system which, on consideration, should appear to them likely to prove an illusion; and that, as the petitioners do not venture to anticipate what may be the determination of the House upon the question hereby submitted to its decision, they hope that they will be excused for humbly stating what, in the event of the dissolution of the present system, they conceive would be found to be the rights of the petitioners, as well as their fair pretensions upon the justice and liberality of parliament; the absolute right of the petitioners, for their own use, to a considerable part of the forts, towns, islands, territories, and rights which they have acquired abroad, never has been questioned, and they believe it to be unquestionable; and, notwithstanding the claim made for the public to other parts of the territorial acquisitions and revenues of the petitioners, they entertain a strong hope that the property, as well in those parts which were acquired by conquest under the powers of peace and war lawfully exercised by them, as in those parts which were otherwise acquired, would be found to belong to the petitioners, in the same way as any other property within his Majesty's dominions belongs to the owners thereof, subject to the sovereignty and allegiance due to his Majesty; but even supposing it should be determined contrary to the sense and expectations of the petitioners, touching their rights, that those places were not the property of the petitioners, they submit, that in that case, if the possession were to be assumed on the part of the public, they would have a just right to reimbursement of the expences which they have incurred in acquiring and maintaining them, and in making the fortifications, and civil and military buildings and works, which they have
676
erected and improved upon them, with a compensation for the services and risk of the petitioners during the long time which they have had the possession and government of such territories, under the confirmation of parliament, and all other charges incurred by them relative to such territories; these expences and charges amount to many millions of money; the petitioners also submit, that they have a just claim to be reimbursed all "the sums they have paid in discharge of debts contracted on account of the territories, and to be indemnified against all other debts in respect of them, and which now remain undischarged; and that the petitioners do not question, as an abstract principle, the right of any of his Majesty's subjects to trade with any part of his Majesty's dominions; but they humbly submit, that it cannot be contended that any persons can have a right, except with the consent of the petitioners, to use the settlements, factories, and seats of trade, or to avail themselves of the means and facilities, moral and physical, which the petitioners at a great expence and risk, have created or acquired, and now at great current charge maintain, for the purposes of commerce and civil intercourse; and that, on account of the complicated nature and variety of the matters necessary to be considered and prepared in relation to the subject of this Petition, the petitioners were unable to prepare a Petition submitting their case relative thereto to the consideration of the House, until the time limited for presenting Petitions for private Bills was expired; and praying that leave may be given to present a Petition, praying that the House will take the premises into its consideration, and make such provision, as in its wisdom it shall see fit, for continuing the government of the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies in the petitioners, and for settling the trade to the East Indies and China, and other places, from the Cape of Good Hope to the Streights of Magellan, according to the present system; or that the petitioners may have such relief, in the premises, as their case may require."
Ordered to be referred to a Committee.

PETITION FROM THE EAST INDIA COMPANY RESPECTING THEIR ACCOUNT WITH THE PUBLIC.
A Petition of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies, was brought up and read; setting forth,
"That the loans of very large sums of money have heretofore been raised in India on the credit of the petitioners, for the defence and protection of the British possessions there, by the terms of which loans the creditors were entitled to the option of being paid off in India, or by bills of exchange to be drawn upon London, and upon and in consequence of such obligations becoming duo, bills to the amount of 13,104,924 l. have been drawn, since the year 1807, upon the petitioners, payable in London; and the sum of 10,902,924 l., part of the said sum of 13,104,924 l. has been discharged by the petitioners; and 2,202,000 l. residue thereof, now remains outstanding; and the larger part of the bills drawn for the same will become due previous to the month of March 1814; and that, for the purpose of enabling the petitioners to pay the said bills of exchange which they have so discharged, to the amount of 10,902,924 l. they borrowed exchequer bills of the public to the amount of 1,500,000 l. in pursuance of an act of 50 Geo. 3, for granting to his Majesty a sum of money to be raised by exchequer bills, and to be advanced and applied in the manner and upon the terms therein mentioned, for the relief of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies; and the petitioners also raised a sum of 2,500,000 l. upon reduced 3l. per centum annuities, and consolidated 3l. per centum annuities, respectively transferable at the Sank of England, in pursuance of an act of 52 Geo. 3, for advancing 2,500,000 l. to the East India Company, to enable them to discharge part of the Indian debt; and that, by another act of 52 Geo. 3, to amend an act of 50 Geo. 3, for granting a sum of money to be raised by exchequer bills to be advanced and applied in the manner and upon the terms therein mentioned, for the relief of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies, it is enacted, that it shall be lawful for the commissioners of his Majesty's treasury, or any three or more of them, to carry to the credit of the petitioners, in repayment of the sums advanced under the provisions of the said act of 50 Geo. 3, any sum or sums of money which should have been advanced or disbursed by the petitioners, in the East Indies, for his Majesty's navy, or any public services; and that the petitioners compute, that after allowing, in account, such sum as the petitioners are indebted
678
to his Majesty for the loan of the said exchequer bills, that the sum of 2,294,426 l. at the least is now due to the petitioners, in respect of money which has been advanced or disbursed by the petitioners, in the East Indies, for his Majesty's navy and other public services; and that by virtue of an act of 37 Geo. 3, to enable the East India Company to raise money by further increasing their capital stock, and to extend the provisions now existing respecting the present stock of the Company to the said increased stock, the petitioners are now authorised to raise money by increasing their capital stock by the sum of 2,000,000 l.; but the petitioners have not raised any money in exercise of the powers contained in the said act; and that the petitioners are now authorized by law to raise money in England, upon bonds, to the amount of 7,000,000 l.; and they have now issued bonds to the amount of 5,409,325 l. and are at liberty to issue further bonds to the further amount of 1,590,675 l. and by an act of 5l Geo. 3, to enable the East India Company to raise a further sum of money upon bond, instead of increasing their capital stock, and to alter and amend an act of 47 Geo. 3, relative thereto, it is provided, that when the petitioners shall have raised, under and by virtue of the said act of 37 Geo. 3, and of the said act of 47 Geo. 3, and of that act, such sums of money as together should amount to the sum of 4,000,000 l. sterling; from thenceforth it should not be lawful for the petitioners to raise any further sum of money upon bond; and all money, which from thenceforth should be raised by increase of capital stock, under and by virtue of the said first mentioned act, should be applied in discharge of the said bond debt, until the said bond debt created by virtue of the said act of 47 Geo. 3, or of that act, together with the money to be raised by increase of capital as aforesaid, should be reduced to the sum of 4,000,000 l. sterling; and that, upon an estimate of the probable receipts and payments of the petitioners in England, including amongst the receipts the said sum of 2,294,426 l. so due from the public to the petitioners, as hereinbefore mentioned, it appears that it will be advantageous and necessary, to the concerns of the petitioners, that they should be authorized to raise the sum of 2,500,000 l. on loan, in a different manner from that in which they may now raise money, for the

679
purpose of enabling them to discharge the said bills of exchange, to the amount of 2,202,000 l. drawn in liquidation of the Indian debt, to provide for their other current payments, and to enable the petitioners, as circumstances may render it advisable, to reduce the amount of their bond debt, without increasing their capital stock; and that, on account of the intricacy of the matters necessary to be considered, and the want of advices from India relative to pecuniary concerns of the petitioners, they were unable to make out the estimates of the sum due by the public to the petitioners, or of the sum which it is requisite for them to be enabled to raise, until the time limited for presenting petitions for private bills was expired; and the petitioners therefore most humbly pray that leave may be given to present a Petition, praying that the House will be pleased to direct the payment of the said sum of 2,294,426 l. so due by the public to the petitioners, as herein-before is mentioned, and to grant to the petitioners such relief, in the premises, as to the House shall seem meet."
Ordered to be referred to a Committee.

WAR WITH AMERICA.
Mr. Crokerrose to correct a mistake, into which he had fallen in the course of the debate on Thursday night. He was perfectly right in all the facts he had stated, relative to the conduct of the American consular agent who issued certificates; but Mr. Lyman was not the person (as he had then asserted) who was guilty of the practice to which he referred. The name, however, was very similar, but he should decline mentioning it. In speaking also of the naval officer who had contributed by his skill and gallantry, to the preservation of our homeward-bound West India fleet, he should have stated, that it was captain Broke, of the Shannon frigate.
Mr. Whitbreadfelt himself extremely happy at the self correction of the hon. gentleman, and he was sure that it would prove a great source of satisfaction to the friends of the late general Lyman, than whom a more correct or honourable man did not exist.
Mr. Crokerentirely participated in the satisfaction expressed by the hon. gent.

VICE-CHANCELLOR'S BILL.
Lord Castlereaghmoved the order of the day, for taking into farther consideration the report on the Vice-Chancellor's Bill.
Mr. R. Gordon,on the order of the day being moved for the farther consideration of the Report of this Bill, observed, that the Bill had now received the finishing hand of the noble lord; but he could not see that any improvement, or any material alteration, had been made. He had observed that the noble lord had taken great pains in the construction of the Bill to avoid the words Assistant Judge, though this, in fact, was the very thing intended. One of the Amendments, he observed, was resorting to the suitors' fund for the payment of half of the new salary. Now, were there no other objection to the Bill, he should consider this alone as a very material one. The suitors' fund was private property, and, as such, what right, he asked, had they so to dispose of it? He knew that various sums had been taken from it before, but that was no justification of the practice. They were not to follow a multitude to do evil. By the Chancellor's paying the one half of the salary, the principle had been given up that he ought to pay the whole. He therefore contended for this principle to its full extent. The hon. member then adverted to the last clause of the amended Bill, providing for the Lord Chancellor's taking all the fees. On the subject of fees he had his doubts respecting their propriety, and was glad to understand that it was the intention of an hon. member to move, that the Lord Chancellor should receive no fees, but have a fixed salary. On the whole, it was his opinion that the Bill ought to be recommitted.
Mr. M. A. Taylorfelt it his duty, as chairman of the committee that had been appointed to enquire into the emoluments of the office of Lord Chancellor, to state that these emoluments had been much exaggerated by general and vulgar report. Upon an average, for some years past, they had not been more than 18, 19, or 20,000 l. a year, instead of 30 or 40,000 l. as had been represented. The fees, on account of bankruptcies, amount to about 5,000 l.; the emoluments, as Speaker of the House of Lords, to 7,000 l. making in all, with the salary paid from the Exchequer, about 20,000 l. a year. The emoluments from bankruptcies alone had, on the contrary, been stated to amount to 17,000 l. a year, but such reports were without foundation. It had been the wish of the committee, that a fixed salary should be given to the Lord Chancellor, instead of these casual fees, and in justice to the noble

681
and learned lord now in that high office, he thought it necessary to state, that, on this being communicated to him, he approved of such an arrangement, and acquiesced in the average of the last five years being taken as the standard, amounting to about 16 or 17,000 l. a year, He thought it only doing fair justice to the noble lord to state, that on this occasion they found him as liberal as any principle of fairness or equity could require. He was still partial to the project he had formerly suggested, of separating the bankrupt causes from the jurisdiction of the Lord Chancellor. There could be nothing unconstitutional in such a measure, as these had been attached to the office by statute, and not originally connected with the Lord Chancellor's duties. Another judge might be appointed for bankruptcies, who, at the same time, might be of great assistance to the Cockpit. He admitted of the impossibility of the Master of the Rolls being called on to do other duties than those of his own office, and with regard to the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, he had business enough already in his own court.
Sir F. Floodwas glad to find that the country, already so much burdened, was not to be charged with an additional salary. The Chancellor, it seemed, was to pay the one half of the salary, which was a proof that he was satisfied that he could not do all the duties. The Bill, in its first stage, he thought rather a slovenly performance, and unlike the usual productions of the noble lord. He approved of the amendments that had been introduced, and therefore, although he had formerly voted against the Bill, was now ready to give it his assent and support. It was evident there was a great increase of business in the Court of Chancery, and neither the Lord Chancellor nor the Master of the Rolls would be expected to do miracles. An immediate remedy was necessary, and any delay would be doing injustice to the public.
Sir C. Burrellremarked, that the precedency of the Vice-Chancellor was not proportioned to his salary, as it was proposed that he should rank after the Master of the Rolls, though his salary was superior to that of this last officer.
Mr. Abercrombysuggested that, as it was not intended that the Vice-Chancellor should have a seat in the House of Commons, the safest course to pursue, would be to insert a clause in the Bill to that purpose
682
The statute of Anne, and that of George 2, might be supposed at first sight to suffice. But in this last statute it was specified, that the disability should not be extended to offices held for life or during good behaviour. In the statute by which the commissioners of accounts were appointed they were excluded from sitting in that House by a special clause, and as the intention of the legislature was at present undoubted, he supposed there could be no objection, in order to obviate future doubts, to insert the clause he proposed.
Mr. Rosesaid, that there could be no objection to what the hon. and learned member proposed, had not the act of Anne been amply sufficient. The words were, that no one holding any newly created office of emolument, should be held qualified to sit in the House of Commons.
Mr. Canningprofessed not to have discovered any of those amendments in the Bill that would induce him now to vote for it, having voted against it on the second reading. It appeared to him to have come out of the Committee with all the objections that it had at first presented; but he should reserve himself for an opportunity of farther discussing the principle of the Bill on the third reading. With respect to bankruptcies, he conceived what had been suggested by an hon. and learned gentleman to be an improvement, and if any such amendment was moved on the third reading, he should give it his support. He should not move, however, such an amendment himself, but should it not be moved, he thought the Bill ought to be rejected. As the evil complained of was of a temporary nature, the remedy also, he contended, ought to be temporary, and the Bill, therefore, limited to a certain duration.
Mr. M. A. Taylordisclaimed having any intention of moving the amendment alluded to, but thought it would be desirable, if there was any disposition on the part of the framers of the Bill to meet it.
Mr. Lockhart,referring to a clause in the Bill where it was stated that the Vice-Chancellor should determine all causes as the Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper should direct, thought it of the greatest importance that this part of the Bill should be more defined or better understood. It was necessary to know how this authority was to be given, as much of the landed property of the kingdom, might be held

683
on such decisions as the Vice-Chancellor might give. He wished to know the extent and sort of jurisdiction that the Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper were to exercise.
The Solicitor Generalsaid, that the mode of determining what causes were to be heard by the Vice-Chancellor would be by orders issued, from time to time, by the Chancellor, Keeper, or the commissioners holding the great seal. As to the indecency which was said to be apprehended from the subordinate condition in which the Vice-Chancellor would be placed with respect to the Chancellor, when it was said he might be interrupted by the Chancellor's bell, what was the case at present when a judge and two Masters in Chancery sat for the Lord Chancellor? They proceeded to hear such causes as might be dispatched within the time during which it was probable they would sit. This would be the case with the Vice-Chancellor. The Chancellor would discover what was the most convenient manner of conducting the business, and signify it to the Vice-Chancellor; and from the harmonious manner in which business was conducted in Chancery, no evil was to be apprehended from this mode of proceeding. He had never pledged himself to propose any amendments in the Committee, but he had said that any objections against the Bill might be remedied there. As something must be done to remedy the existing evil, what had been proposed instead of this Bill? To take a judge, of whose integrity and talents enough could not be said in praise, and load him with all this additional business; and this, though that honourable person had stated to his constituents that the pressure of his ordinary business was such as to compel him to abandon the pleasing duties of representing his native county in that House. A certain number of juridical days were marked out with mathematical accuracy, and were to be imposed on the Master of the Rolls, although that officer had been begged, by the gentlemen of the profession attending his court, to desist from even his ordinary sittings, lest his valuable life might be endangered. The question was not of willingness or unwillingness, but of personal capacity to perform such additional duty. But it was said the duties would not be imposed without additional emolument. Was it a compliment to this judge who had declined the most grateful duties,
684
to say to him, that he must now come forward and play the part of Scrub or Mungo. An hon. and learned gentleman, whom the House would not have forgot to have been the chairman of the committee to enquire into the Chancery delays (even had he not himself informed them of it,) had looked on this scheme as visionary, though he disliked the present Bill. The judges in Westminster-Hall were so burthened with business, that no assistance could be expected from them. As to sending the Chief Baron of the Exchequer to the Cockpit, no court, it was well known, could exist without its head—not even a bench of justices, as any gentleman opposite, who happened to be chairman of one, might know. The courts of Westminster consisted constitutionally of four judges, and it would be a discovery of that night if it was found that they could go on with three.
Mr. Taylorexplained. He had not laid any stress on his having been chairman of the committee, but had merely mentioned it incidentally.
The Solicitor Generalexplained, that he had only mentioned that the hon. gentleman was chairman of the committee to his
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that during his whole parliamentary life he had never witnessed such an instance of rapid growth as they had seen that night. The infant of that day week had become a giant. The hon. and learned Solicitor General, who but a week ago was so diffident that he could scarcely venture to obtrude himself on the House; who professed himself to have no practical knowledge of the Court of Chancery, had, after having pledged his reputation that the expedient before them would be successful, came forward that night, and after speaking with full confidence to a point of practice in the Court of Chancery, proceeded to a speech full of sarcastic allusions. The allusion to the hon. and learned chairman of the committee, they must understand as being devoid of sarcasm, notwithstanding the tone and manner in which they were delivered. He had as much respect as any one for the Master of the Rolls, but notwithstanding all the lamentation which they had heard for the absence of that learned judge, which lamentation, no doubt, would be renewed to the full, in the case of any one appointed to the office of Vice-Chancellor, he (Mr. W.) thought it expedient, that not only the

685
Master of the Rolls, but the Masters in Chancery, and the Welch Judges, should be excluded from the House, although no doubt sir W. Grant had made a great display of talent in that House, and even risen to his high office by that means. [No! from the ministerial side.] This was the first time he had heard the fact disclaimed.—The question should not be considered personally as it respected the Master of the Rolls, but the officer in general. The only imputation he had heard on the Master of the Rolls, was that brought forward by an hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stephen), on a former night; who had stated that that judge would not sit at the Cockpit, from a political pique against the administration, and this formed an additional reason that the Master of the Rolls should not have a seat in parliament, where he was exposed to political partialities. The Master of the Rolls would not permanently have this additional business, as much of the pressure arose from the circumstance, that the Chancellor, through an anxious desire to do strict justice, did little or nothing. As other opportunities would offer for delivering his sentiments upon the principle of the Bill, he should only say one word as to the harmony always supposed by the Solicitor General to exist in the Court of Chancery. There were instances, such as in the case of lord Thurlow, and lord Alvanley, where the Chancellor conceived the greatest contempt for the Master of the Rolls, and would never suffer that judge to sit for him. If such a prejudiced Chancellor existed hereafter, a Vice-Chancellor, though endowed with all the learning and all the talents, forensic and parliamentary, of the horn and learned Solicitor General, might be reduced to a sinecurist. He might strut about with his train-bearer and his secretary—great at a levee or any where else—but in the Court of Chancery worse than nothing.
Lord Castlereaghthought, that nothing in his hon. and learned friend's speech justified the attack which the hon. gentleman had made on him. The characteristic of what his hon. and learned friend had said on a former night, and what he had that night repeated, was, that it had all the weight of argument, and was stated in a perfectly inoffensive manner. His hon. and learned friend could not be accused of arrogance, seeing that he had been challenged as a lawyer to come forward, and had done so accordingly—In
686
answer to an objection which had been been urged with respect to the possible abuse of the authority to be given by this Bill, he would observe that the Lord Chancellor might now, as the law at present existed, come into court, and take any cause out of the hands of the Master of the Rolls, even after it had commenced. This consequence, improbable and unheard of as it was, might be expected to happen if we were to argue from the abuse of the law and not the use of it. The different plans which had been proposed to be substituted for the present Bill were a sort of centre-projects which operated the one as a complete negative upon the other. One hon. gentleman opposite had that night distinctly stated his conviction that the erecting the bankruptcies into a separate department would create much difficulty and confusion. He himself thought that the same interruption and confusion would necessarily follow from overloading the Master of the Rolls with all the arrears in the Court of Chancery, and separating him from a court where he had so long presided with honour to himself and satisfaction to this as well as to foreign countries. He totally disapproved of that complexity of movement and judicial machinery by which it had been proposed to transfer the judges from court to court, and to supply the absence of one from his proper sphere by the successive removal of others out of theirs. He did not believe that the great and excellent character who had been so often referred to would ever stand in the way of any advantage to his country, but he conceived that in case of any such arrangement being adopted, it would be absolutely necessary for him to retire from the high situation which he now filled. It was not historically true, that the Master of the Rolls owed his elevation to the talents which he had displayed in that House; he owed it chiefly and originally to the distinction which he had obtained in the Court of Chancery, and at the bar of the House of Lords. He must enter his protest against any measure which proceeded on the supposition that the evil to be remedied was a temporary evil. Even if a temporary office were in this view created for the purpose, no eminent professional man would accept of it, unless on condition of the continuance of the salary after his services had ceased. Why, then, throw a character of doubt and disrespect upon the office without any advantage to result from it? It

687
would be at all times in the power of parliament to annul the office, if found unnecessary, as they had created it.
Mr. Stephenshould not have risen, but for the notice which had been taken of an allusion made by him on a former night, to the cause of the Master of the Rolls withdrawing himself from the Cockpit. He conceived that no imputation was implied in the statement he had made, which, however, was founded only on common rumour. His attendance there was no part of his official duty, it was perfectly gratuitous, and he was at liberty to continue or discontinue it as he saw proper. The time that he had withdrawn himself from the Cockpit, was, when a certain administration was endeavouring to supplant him in the county which he had long represented. At such a time, it would not be wondered at, if he did not continue to give his voluntary attendance at a place, where it was not his particular duty to attend.
Mr. Whitbreaddid not know any thing more of the transaction than what he had learned from the information of the hon. and learned member, who had stated that the Master of the Rolls had been ill-treated by the ministry of 1806. Because he had been opposed in a county election, he had, it seemed, retired from the Cockpit out of political pique and resentment. He did not attach much credit to the rumour, but he thought that, if true, it implied a censure on the conduct of the Master of the Rolls.
Sir Samuel Romillywished to understand the Bill, which he was unable to do from the Bill itself, without the assistance of those who framed it. He wished to be informed, whether it was intended to transfer causes set down for the Master of the Rolls to the Vice-Chancellor; if the causes were so transferred, it would create considerable dissatisfaction, and a multiplication of business by constant appeals; if it were not intended so to transfer them, all the causes would be set down before the Master of the Rolls. He wondered how gentlemen who had professed on a former night to be satisfied, not with what the Bill was, but with what it might be, should express their approbation of the Amendments. It was precisely the same that it was. The only alteration was in the omission of the words, "under certain restrictions and regulations," but the Vice-Chancellor was still to proceed to decide only such causes as the Chancellor should from
688
time to time direct. It had been said that the judges could not possibly be spared from their courts to asssist the Chancellor. He would, as a fact, state, that in last Trinity Term, three judges had sat with the Chancellor for four days, on the will of Mr. Wilkinson. This formed at least an exception to the absolute impossibility stated. The objections to the present Bill were radical and essential. It made an alteration in the legal constitution of the country: and it would hereafter be recorded, that in my lord Eldon's time a Bill had passed which made it impossible for any one to rise to the highest honours of the profession in the fair and open path of his duty. It was not just to say that no other remedy had been suggested. Several expedients had been proposed, among others to enable the Lords to hear Appeals in the absence of the Chancellor; of which no notice had been taken. Yet why should not the other House be competent to do this, assisted by one of the noble and learned lords who had held the seals either of England or Ireland? The same course had been more than once adopted in the time of lord Mansfield; and lord Bathurst had sat for lord Thurlow. As to the observation which had been made on the increase of business from the Irish appeals, it was to be remembered, that before 1782, appeals from that country were tried here as at present, and that it was only from 1782 to 1800 that there was a suspension of the ordinary and established course of justice.
Mr. Wetherallcould not conceive how such a power as that alluded to by the hon. and learned gentleman could be understood to exist in the Chancellor. The fair construction of this Bill certainly was, that the Chancellor could not transfer causes set down for the Rolls Court. As to the expedient suggested of detaching the bankrupt business, that branch he conceived to be now so closely and constitutionally connected with the original jurisdiction of the Court, that it could not be separated without great hazard and inconvenience. If a new judge were created for the dispatch of bankruptcy business, it would be creating a jurisdiction without appeal, which appeared to him a greater innovation than the object of the present Bill. It was not quite reasonable to expect such uniform and unfailing rectitude in any judge as totally to supersede the necessity of appeal. The most active and vigilant might sometimes slumber in a long

689
and wearisome course of application:
——Aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus:
Verum opere in longo fas est obrepere somnum.
Certain plans had been proposed which might expedite the dispatch of business in Chancery: but the House should beware lest in giving increased velocity to the wheels of one court, the whole machinery of another might not be reduced to a state of rest.
Mr. Ponsonby,in answer to the alleged anomaly in English law of creating a judge without appeal, observed, that in matters of bankruptcy there was at present no appeal. The hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, seemed terrified at the consequences which would result from the appointment of a judge for the separate causes of bankruptcy. In the hon. and learned gentleman's opinion this would produce a narrowness of view in the person who should be appointed to this separate bench, which would render him unfit for the office. It was the first time he had ever heard that the division of labour made the labourer more inexpert. But would not the advisers of the crown advise the appointment of the fittest person for the office? It had been said, that the separation of the bankruptcy causes would not afford a sufficient relief to the Lord Chancellor. Did not the bankruptcy causes constitute one-fourth of the Chancery business? The Chancellor who should be left with three-fourths of the present business, and should be unable to execute it, was very unfit to hold that situation. An hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stephen), had been at once the accuser and exculpator of the Master of the Rolls. He knew not why that hon. and learned gentleman had thought fit to become the accuser of that exalted character, or whether it was by his permission that he had become his defender. Did the hon. and learned gentleman think that it was a fortunate defence for the Master of the Rolls, that he had withdrawn himself from the decision of causes at the Cockpit, because an opponent of his, at a county election, had received some support from ministers? He thought the hon. and learned gentleman ought to consider some time before he appeared again in the character of a defender. He could see no objection to the separation of bankruptcy causes from the great seal. The taking away part of the Chancellor's emoluments was no objection, for the Chancellor ought to be liberally paid, and consequently compensated for
690
any loss. This was no part of the ordinary Chancery business; but superinduced a few years ago, because the legislature did not know what to do with it.
Mr. B. Bathurstsaid, if an anomaly were to be allowed to exist, as in the case of bankruptcy causes, it ought not to exist in a subordinate officer, but in a person clothed with the highest dignity.
The question was then put and the Amendment negatived. The Report was then agreed to without a division.