Commons Sitting of 13 December 1813

POOR LAWS.
Mr. Hornerrose to submit

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a few observations to the House, upon a subject of considerable importance; and his object in rising was, to persuade the House to adopt certain resolutions, which might prevent the introduction of any clause of clauses into local Bills for the relief of the poor, contrary to and inconsistent with the established law of the land. The House was aware, that a committee had been appointed to examine into all the Poor Bills which had been passed, he believed, since 1800, with a view to ascertain what clauses, of the description he had alluded to, had crept into such Bills. A Bill also, brought in by and hon. and learned friend of his, was now before the House, one of the objects of which was to repeal clauses of that nature. With respect to that Bill, he was not prepared to say that he entirely approved of all the provisions contained in it; but when it should come regularly before the House for discussion, he might perhaps hear reasons which would induce him to alter some opinions he now entertained. That Bill, however, was to have a retrospective effect; and, whatever might be thought as to the past, it must be allowed, that, to prevent similar defects in future, was of the utmost importance. The objectionable clauses in question easily found their way into local poor Bills, because they, being of the nature of private Bills, did not receive that attention from the House which would be likely to prevent the introduction of them, it appeared from the report of the committee, that these clauses were of a two-fold description. The one sort went to alter the law of the land in the mode of assessments, rating, &c. which ought never to be permitted, unless a strong exception could be made out in the case of particular districts, where the adoption of the ordinary methods would be inadequate. The other sort of clauses altered the law of settlement in certain parishes, and (to the shame of the legislature be it spoken) gave the power of in flicting corporal punishment on the poor to persons quite unfit for such an authority. It was his decided opinion, that upon no pretence whatever ought such clauses as these last to receive the sanction of that House; and it was to those in particular that he how meant his intended remedy to apply. Some regulation, indeed, ought to be adopted with respect to the others, relating to the mode of assessment, rating, &c.; but a remedy for that would, perhaps, grow more naturally out of the dis-
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cussion on the Bill of his learned friend. He should, therefore, move, that it be a Standing Order of the House, for the present session, that no Bill should be introduced, containing any clause or clauses relating to the settlement of the poor, or the corporal punishment of them, contrary to the taw of the land. In order to enforce that order, he should also more, in the same way, that no such clause, or clauses, be proposed in any select committee; and, to give efficacy to the whole, a third standing order, that the chairman of every select committee on such Bills do report to the House whether those orders have or have not been strictly complied with.
The Speakersuggested to the hon. mover, that a standing order was a perpetual order; and that, as he meant these to be only experimental, it would be better to move them in the way of resolutions; it being competent to him or any other hon. member, at the end of the session, to move, without amendment, if thought proper, that they be considered as standing orders of the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, to express his entire concurrence express his entire concurrence in the sentiments of the hon. and learned gentleman, and his satisfaction at the manner in which he had introduced his resolutions. Whatever might be his opinion of the Bill that was to act retrospectively, it was undoubtedly proper to prevent the introduction of clauses which would cause so great a disparity in the condition of the poor in different parts of the kingdom, and place them under such very different treatment.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowalso concurred in the sentiments of his, honourable and learned friend (Mr. Horner), and begged leave to offer him his thanks for the care and attention he had bestowed on this subject. None of those clauses would have been passed, if the attention of the House had been properly directed to the subject. When renting a house of 10 l. yearly value gave a settlement in one district, and was no qualification for a settlement in another, the magistrates were placed under circumstances of great difficulty in the execution of the Poor Laws. As to the clauses which subjected the poor to corporal punishment, they were alien to the feelings of Englishmen, and to the general law of the land.
Mr. Kenrickconcurred in the resolutions which were proposed; and postponed the introduction of his Bill till the 3rd Match.
Mr. Harneyapproved of the proposed regulations; but trusted, that they would not exclude such clauses from being moved in a committee of the whole House, in cases where it might be necessary and beneficial to alter the common law of the land, as applicable to particular districts. With regard to the power vested in the governors of poor-houses to inflict corporal punishment, he apprehended there could be but one opinion upon the subject.
Sir Samuel Romillyconcurred in these resolutions; but suggested that they ought to be carried still further. There was another description of clauses, as exceptionable as those which had been stated by his hon. and learned friend, and to which he had himself called the attention of the House. He meant those clauses which empowered the trustees to employ the poor in a manner not authorised by law; such as farming them out at their pleasure, or disposing of them to those who wished to hire them by the day, or such other term as was agreed on.
Mr. Hornerexpressed his willingness to adopt the suggestion of his hon. and learned friend, and proposed to alter the first resolution by inserting the words, "or employment," after the word "settlement."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwished the hon. gentleman to take a little time for consideration before he incorporated the proposed amendment; as there were many cases in which it was proper to allow of the employment of the poor under the discretion of the trustees.
Sir S. Romillysaid he did not wish to press the alteration at present; after which it was withdrawn, and the several Resolutions then passed unanimously.