Commons Sitting of 25 March 1812

PETITION FROM GLASGOW RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
Mr. Houston presented a Petition from the lord provost, magistrates, and common council of the city of Glasgow, in council assembled, setting forth,
"That in the view of the approaching expiration of the charter of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies, the Petitioners beg leave respectfully to convey to the House their sentiments and wishes on this important subject, a subject which, at the pre-sent crisis, is so highly interesting to the city of Glasgow, as well as to the empire at large; and that in addressing the en-lightened legislature of this country, the Petitioners deem it quite unnecessary to use any arguments farther than an appeal to the experience of past ages to prove the general inexpediency of commercial monopolies; the Petitioners presume not to offer any suggestions relative to the future government, civil and military, of the British possessions in India; and they disclaim any interference whatever with the existence of the East India Company as a trading corporation, or with its internal arrangements, and foreign and domestic establishments; all they humbly propose is, that the exclusive privileges of the Company may not be renewed or continued, and that the trade to the Vast countries between the Cape of Good Hope and the Streights of Magellan may be laid open to the commercial enterprize of all the subjects of the empire; and that not only the inhabitants of the United States of America, but also the subjects of all other governments in amity with this country, should have been admitted to commercial intercourse with the British possessions in India, while British subjects were excluded, appears an unnatural and extremely hard, if not an unjust arrangement, and, at the present period, when our inveterate enemy is exerting all his power to debar this nation from commerce with the continent of Europe, the continuation of such a system would be peculiarly inexpedient; the admission of a free and unfettered trade with the very large proportion of the population of the globe, comprehended under the exclusive grant of the East India Company, fortunately presents a substitute for the partial

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and temporary loss of European commerce; it will afford an extensive field for the employment of mercantile talents and capital beyond the tyrannical grasp of the enemy; and to the opening of such a field, at such a conjuncture, it is not easy to foresee any well-founded objection, especially when there is strong reason to believe, that the capital of the East India Company is not adequate to the trade, and when it appears that the Company has, since the last renewal of its charter, added greatly to its debt; and that the mono-poly has not proved advantageous even to the trading corporation, for whose behoof it was granted; and praying the House, in its wisdom, to adopt such measures as may render it lawful for any of his majesty's subjects, from and after the 1st day of March, 1814, to carry on from any of the ports of the united kingdom a free and unlimited trade with the British possessions in India, and with the other countries situated to the east of the Cape of Good Hope and to the west of Cape Horn."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—COMPLAINT RESPECTING A WITNESS BEING ARRESTED.
On the motion of Mr. Eden, Mr. Dan was called to the bar, and examined by the Speaker. Mr. Dan stated, that he was an attorney, that in consequence of his orders Hindson, the sheriff's officer, had been instructed to arrest Mr. Campbell; that after the arrest, Hindson came to him with a paper, which he said, Campbell offered as his protection from arrest; that the paper shewn to him by the clerk (the order of the Committee for Mr. Campbell's attendance as a witness) was that paper; that he conceived it was a trick to facilitate escape; that he also doubted, if authentic, whether it was an essential protection; because Mr. Campbell was arrested, not in going to the Committee, but on his re-turn home; that the Committee was not described in the paper as a Committee of the House of Commons, and that the residence of Mr. Campbell was not specified. Having withdrawn,
Mr. Edensaid, that Mr. Dan's statement had been so satisfactory, that he was sure the House would agree to his motion for discharging that gentleman from any further attendance.
Mr. Dan was accordingly discharged, as was also Hindson, the sheriff's officer.
On the motion of Mr. Eden, Mr. Palmer
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was then called to the bar, and examined by the Speaker.
Mr. Palmer stated, that he was ordered to attend the Committee on Monday; that he was arrested a little after four in the afternoon of that day, having left the Committee a little before four; that he lived at Limehouse: that he was arrested in Black-friar's-road, going to call on his brother-in-law Mr. Campbell; that Grace, the she-riff's officer, arrested him, that he shewed Grace the order for his attendance on the Committee; that Grace said, he was obliged to take him, although he expressed no doubt of the authenticity of the order; that he told Grace he was going back to the House of Commons for a letter from the Chairman of the Committee; that he had been instructed by the Committee to go to Mr. Campbell, who was in custody in the neighbourhood of Blackfriars'-road, and to return to the House, where he would find either the Chairman of the Committee or a note from him; that while acting under these directions, and returning from Mr. Campbell, he was arrested: and that he had in vain stated all these circumstances to the officer.—The Witness having withdrawn,
Mr. Edenobserved, that before he moved to call in Grace, he would state to the House, the object of the Committee, in sending Mr. Palmer to Mr. Campbell. During the examination of Mr. Palmer be-fore the Committee, that gentleman received information, that his brother-in-law,. Mr. Campbell, had been arrested on his way to attend the Committee as a witness. They conceiving it to be their duty, in maintenance of the privileges of parliament, to bring the fact before the House, requested Mr. Palmer to go to Mr. Campbell, and to prevent him from endeavouring to procure his discharge by bail.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on this statement, was inclined to think that Mr. Palmer, when arrested, could not be considered as a witness, but as a messenger, and doubted whether under those circumstances he was entitled to protection.
Mr. Edenargued by analogy, from the practice of courts of law, that Mr. Palmer was entitled to protection, and stated two cases in support of his argument. The one was of a person whose cause was put off early in the morning, but who, not returning home until evening, was on his return arrested; the other was of a woman, whose cause was decided on a Friday, but who, waiting until Saturday for a stage in

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which to return home, was arrested in getting into the stage. In both those cases the courts decided, that the individuals were entitled to protection.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that this was a novel case; but the inclination of his mind was, that Mr. Palmer ought to be protected. He had been ordered by the Committee to do a particular act before his return home, and was therefore not released from his attendance at the time of his arrest.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdoubted, in the first place, the power of a Committee to appoint a messenger. If, however, they had that power, his protection ought to describe him as a messenger, not as a witness. Otherwise a sheriff's officer might be involved in endless perplexities. For suppose a sheriff's officer met a man against whom he had a writ, going to Hampstead, and that man were to tell him, that he was sent on a message by a committee of the House of Commons, although the letter, which he might shew as his protection, was merely a summons as a witness before that committee, it would be hard to impose on the sheriff's officer the necessity of believing such a statement. It might perhaps be expedient to postpone the further consideration of this case, in order to afford time for deliberation.
The Speakerobserved, that if the case were to stand over, it must be on the principle alone. No new circumstances could appear. In old times, even before the Revolution, it had always been held to be the undoubted right of the House of Commons to protect from arrest, witnesses summoned either to the House, or to a committee, in coming, staying, and returning. In his view of the present question, the character of Mr. Palmer as a messenger, seemed to be a secondary consideration. The House must first dispose of his quality as a witness; that he had been in attendance as a witness before the Committee, was clear: that he was not to re-turn to the Committee in the capacity of a witness was also clear. The question for the House to consider was, whether Mr. Palmer was bona fide on his return home when he was arrested. If he had not taken a more than lawful latitude—if his departure from the direct line of his return was satisfactorily accounted for by the intervening act which had been described—the House would have to decide whether in that case they would cut short his protection, and by doing so, forbid their witnesses
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from returning home by any other than the straight course.
Mr. Stephenwas of opinion, that had the suspension of Mr. Palmer's return home been his own choice, he would not have been entitled to the privilege of protection; but it was evidently the act of the Committee.
Mr. Edenalso trusted, that the House would consider the deviation of Mr. Palmer from the straight line of his return sufficiently accounted for, and that they would give him the benefit of protection,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, if such were the wish of the House, expressed his entire acquiescence in it.
Sir J. Newportthought it enigmatical that two brothers, summoned to attend the same committee, should be arrested on the same day, and on writs issued by two different attornies.
Mr. Wilberforcebore testimony to the character of Mr. Campbell. He understood that Mr. Campbell was a man of great worth, and considerable property. He had been a settler in New South Wales, but had been compelled, about eight years ago, to come over to this country to give evidence on a trial, and had since been involved in difficulties by the conduct of his agent. He repeated that he had un-doubted authority for stating, that Mr. Campbell was a man of most unblemished character.
Sir A. Piggottthinking it desirable, that Grace, the sheriff's officer, should be called in,
He was accordingly called to the bar, and being examined by the Speaker, stated; that on Monday, at about half past four o'clock, he arrested Mr. Palmer in Charlotte street, Black-friars-road; that Mr. Palmer came to his house to enquire for Mr. Campbell; that he directed him to Hindson's; that he followed him to Hindson's; and that on coming out he served him with a writ; that Mr. Palmer shewed him a letter, requiring his attendance as a witness before a committee of the House of Commons, but that never having seen such a thing before, and the writ being of such a nature as to expose him to the greatest risk, in the event of Mr. Palmer's escape upon a false pretext, he had been compelled, with a view to his own security, not to allow Mr. Palmer to go.—The sheriff's officer having with-drawn,
Mr. Edenmoved, that the privileges of the House be granted to Mr. Palmer, and

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that he be discharged from arrest.—Ordered.
He then moved, that Grace, the sheriff's officer, be discharged from further attendance; which was also agreed to.

SICILIAN SUBSIDY.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Lord Castlereaghrose for the purpose of proposing the annual vote for the fulfilment of the treaty of his Majesty with the King of the Two Sicilies. He did not feel that it would be necessary for him to go at present into any details upon a subject, the line of conduct upon which seemsed so clear; but if any hon. member should require further information, he should be happy to afford it. It was now four years since this grant had first been proposed and adopted, and at this period, it would be quite superfluous for him to detain the House by a justification of the policy on which the treaty was founded. He flattered himself that those individuals who on former occasions had opposed the vote, would now concede their objections, for he had the satisfaction to state, that his Sicilian Majesty had effected an important change in his government and councils, equally favourable to his own and to the interests of Great Britain. The whole military establishment of the kingdom had been placed under the controul of lord William Bentinck, who would be enabled from the confidence that was reposed in him, and from the power with which he was invested, not only to apply the various means he possessed to the protection of the island, but even to aggression upon the common enemy. It would be almost condescending too far to attempt by any detail, to refute the foul calumny originated in France, that Great Britain had imitated the conduct of the ruler of that country in their treatment of the government of Sicily; that she had assumed all the authority of an independent state, for the purpose of appropriating to herself the resources and produce of the island of Sicily. The only design the British ministry had in view was, to discharge with strict fidelity the duties of an ally, whose anxiety was to stop the progress of an overwhelming tyranny, which would sweep away in its progress every vestige of liberty. With this design they fell themselves called upon, from circumstances of urgent necessity, for the protection not only of the independence of Sicily, but for
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the security of our own army, to produce a change of the system of government; and in consequence of the representation of the British envoy for that purpose, every thing that could be expected had been conceded by the king of that island. In future, therefore, we might consider Sicily secure in itself, and as a spot from whence could be drawn most important means of annoyance to the common enemy. His lordship concluded by moving a resolution for the grant of 400,000 l. to enable his Majesty to make good the treaty entered into with his Sicilian majesty.
Sir John Newportthought that a much more satisfactory explanation was due from the noble lord, on a matter of so much magnitude. He could scarcely believe that ministers, who on former occasions had thrust themselves forward as the friends and supporters of existing establishments, should now attempt to justify the subversion of that of Sicily. Did the noble lord mean to assert, that it was not true, that by means of the British authorities the king had been induced to abdicate his throne in favour of his son? Uninformed as he was upon the subject, judging only from appearances, he confessed that this proceeding did appear to him very similar to the conduct of Buonaparté, who forced the king of Spain to abdicate his throne in favour of his son Ferdinand, and then took advantage of it to claim Spain as his own property. To whom was this money now proposed to be voted, paid? and to what was it applied? These were enquiries, in the present condition of our finances, of much importance; but above all, the British government should take care to make it evident to all the world, that its conduct was not similar to that of our perfidious enemy, which had justly met with the re-probation of all who dared to be impartial.
Lord Castlereaghreplied, that if parliamentary enquiry were requisite, the right hon. baronet was too well acquainted with the forms of the House to need information? how complaints were to be brought for-ward. If such a step should be taken, his lordship was prepared to meet the most minute investigation. He was happy to assure the Committee that there was not the slightest ground for stating, that it was even at the suggestion, much less upon the demand of the British minister, that the King of Sicily was induced to abdicate his throne in favour of his son: how it could be called an abdication he was at a loss to imagine, since it was merely

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a temporary delegation of power, which might at any time be resumed by his majesty—on the motives to this act his lord-ship would not give an opinion, but certain it was that it was wholly voluntary. The only claim made by lord William Bentinck was, that the king of Sicily should put his government upon such a footing as to make it compatible with the safety of the British army, that it should remain in the island. As on her part Great Britain was anxious to discharge her portion of the treaty, so on the part of Sicily it was expected that she should perform hers. With regard to the question, to whom the money was paid, and by whom it was applied, it would be sufficient to answer, that it was delivered to the king of Sicily and administered by his government. If, as it seemed to be required, a general explanation of the con-duct and policy towards our ally were necessary, the transactions not only of the last, but of many preceding years, must be referred to; and although his lordship did not shrink from the investigation, he did not conceive that the present was the fit opportunity for entering upon it. By such a trial, he was confident, that the sterling metal of the national honour and character would only be rendered more bright and pure. That any comparison was to be drawn between the conduct of Great Britain and that of France it was ridiculous to contend, since while the latter had governed by lawless ambition, the former had been guided by unshaken fidelity. The steps taken by the government of this country were justified by the paramount necessity of the case.
Sir J. Newportagain adverted to the resistance given by ministers to his suggestion on a former occasion, that Sicily should be governed by British authorities. Immediately afterwards, however, the British government was detected intermeddling with the organization and proceedings of the Spanish Cortes, and was now the declared promoter of a revolution in Sicily. It was perfectly obvious, without any assertion from the noble lord, that ministers were anxious to shun enquiry, for if enquiry were courted, when could a time be found more fit than the present for such a purpose? A full and complete exposition of their motives and conduct was due to the country, the purity of whose national character was sullied by an imputation of the blackest kind, which it was the duty of the government immediately to remove.
Mr. Wilberforcepointed out the distinction between the conduct of Buonaparté with regard to Spain, and of England with regard to Sicily. The pretended abdication of the throne of Spain procured by the former, was a mere hypocritical veil, under which he concealed his base and treacherous designs.
Mr. Stephenconceived, that the right hon. baronet had forgot the nature of former discussions on the subject. The objections then urged to the grant were, that it was impolitic to grant money while the peasants of Sicily were so oppressed by the noblesse, and that this country ought to insist upon a civil reformation in that kingdom, by the restitution of what was generally termed the rights of man. These objections had been most ably and eloquently answered by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning), then Secretary of State, who had said—"He trusted the House would not desire that 10,000 men, with bayonets on their shoulders, should set about reformation; that he did not think they were the most proper philosophers to revolutionize a country, and teach the people the value of liberty." The hon. and learned gentleman deprecated the practice of adopting gross and ridiculous calumnies set on foot by the enemy, as being unworthy of consideration in that House. For the moment the House began to reason upon them, those calumnies were delivered from the ridicule which otherwise would attach to them. Was it not ridiculous to assimilate the conduct of Great Britain in respect to Sicily with that of Buonaparté towards Spain? The right hon. baronet wished for further information, but was it really necessary to satisfy Europe, that in rendering assistance to Sicily, the object of Great Britain was to annex the kingdom to the dominions of her ally? The change which had taken place was desirable, for it had averted the danger.
Sir J. Newportanswered, that it was of the utmost importance not only that our national honour should be perfectly pure, but that it should be unsuspected even by our enemies. It was not fit that Great Britain should justify her injustice by asserting that the actions of France were of a blacker dye. The noble lord had maintained, that paramount necessity dictated our proceedings in Sicily: necessity was the tyrant's plea, and how many countries had Buonaparté taken possession of and overrun, on the ground that the

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safety of his empire and the tranquillity of Europe required it? Many facts yet remained in the dark, doubtless, because they would not bear the light; among which was the banishment and restoration of the barons suspected of intercourse with the enemy.
Lord Castlereaghre-asserted, that necessity alone had induced the British minister, not, as was supposed, to overthrow the system, but merely to make a representation to the king of Sicily against the existing form of government. The whole change that succeeded was voluntary, nor were the British authorities concerned in or responsible for it. During these transactions the conduct of lord William Bentinck had been not less remarkable for mildness and forbearance, than for a rigid execution of his instructions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerremarked upon the triumphant tone in which the right hon. baronet had reminded the House, that his recommendation at a former period had at length been attended to by the alteration which had been produced in Sicily. If however the British government had not waited until the pre-sent time before it interfered, the object would have been defeated, inasmuch as matters were not until now ripe for the change accomplished, nor would it even at this time have been proper to have proceeded to the extent advised by the right hon. baronet in his former speeches. If it were questionable at this lime whether interference were right, surely at any former period (before the danger which lately threatened the British army was apparent) it would have been most unjustifiable. He admitted the fitness of removing from the British character the greatest of all stigmas cast upon us by our enemies, namely, that we were actuated by the same principles that governed them, if that might be called government which acknowledged no law. He was surprised, however, to find, that the right hon. baronet was the instrument by which these unfounded calumnies were circulated.
Sir J. Newportmaintained, that it was a totally different thing to make terms with our ally when he was independent, and when he had an army of 15,000 British soldiers in his territory. Perhaps upon enquiry, he should agree that it was important that the revolution should be accomplished; but he required, and the country required, that it should be made evident to all the world that such conduct
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was justifiable. It was a very easy, though not perhaps a satisfactory way of answering arguments, to accuse the individual employing them of improper motives; under certain circumstances he might be proud of the disapprobation of the gentlemen on the other side of the House, more particularly when they endeavoured to deter him from the discharge of a public duty, which as a member of parliament he felt himself called upon to perform.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeranswered, that the objection just made, that we ought to have treated with our ally while he was free, could not apply, inasmuch as, at the formation of the treaty, to fulfil which this grant was proposed, there was a British army in Sicily.
Mr. Bastardgave his vote for the grant, upon the explanation of the noble lord, considering that we were justified in interfering with the government of Sicily, in conformity with the provisions of the treaty, and that if necessity urged, we should take possession of that country by force of arms.
Mr. Humestated some circumstances respecting the application of the grants of former years, from local knowledge, and justified the propriety in government abstaining from interference before.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

MR. CHINNERY'S DEFALCATION.
Mr. Bankesadverted to the deficit in the account of public officer in the Treasury, and recommended the adoption of some means of preventing in future the accumulation of frauds on the public.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated the accounts of Mr. Chinnery to have been of such a nature, that by balancing the surplus of some years, against the deficiencies of others, the appearance of the whole was so fair, that it was a matter of little surprise that the auditors had been deceived. The inaccuracies in them could only be detected by looking to the accounts for a considerable time back. These back accounts had been neglected; but latterly, an effort had been made to get them into a more regular and proper train. As there were a great many of these accounts to look to, it was a considerable time before the accounts of Mr. Chinnery were hunted, as it were, into such a corner, that it was hardly possible for the defaulter to escape. He did not deny that some blame attached itself to

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those whose duty it was to look to the ac-counts, but still he contended, that to detect the defaulter was very difficult, from the nature of the accounts. He had him-self on one occasion examined a person on the subject, and been imposed upon.
Mr. Rosesaid, he had introduced Mr. Chinnery in 1783, who had been private secretary to the then lord chancellor, lord Thurlow. Mr. Chinnery was strongly recommended by the lord chancellor, and in consequence he (Mr. Rose) took an opportunity of naming him to a situation. He understood, about nine months after he had done so, that Mr. Chinnery ac-quitted himself in a very satisfactory man-ner, and that he was very ingenious, and at the same time attentive to his duty. For four or five years Mr. Chinnery appeared to go on very well, but after that time he got into an extravagant way of living, which he (Mr. Rose) thought ill became his situation. He remonstrated with him on the subject. Mr. Chinnery, from the two agencies with which he was entrusted, and the accounts of the Treasury, which he had to manage, was in the habit of receiving not less than 4,000 l. per year. The produce of one quarter was usually given into his hands at once, which was about 1,000 l. and the security of Mr. Chinnery was 3,000 l. On his remonstrating with Mr. Chinnery on the extravagant way of life he had got into, he replied that he was enabled to do so by the support which he drew from other funds than those with which he (Mr. R.) was acquainted. The right hon. gentleman said, that he had never known what those funds were, nor that any such were in existence. From the situation in which Mr. Chinnery had been, he had certainly no reason to think him in possession of any thing of that kind. When he (Mr. R) was in the Treasury, 14 or 15 years ago, Mr. Chinnery, in consequence of a remonstrance, assured him that the world were much mistaken in his circumstances, as he had other resources than he was generally known to possess. From that period, he (Mr. R.) had ceased to speak to him frequently, and had indeed very seldom spoke to him since. About a year and a half ago, he saw Mr. Chinnery was still going on in the same extravagant manner. On this occasion he wrote to him a letter, in which he told him, "that nothing could be more scandalous than the style in which he lived. That he (Mr. R.) was certain that he could have no honest
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fund capable of supporting such expences, and that though it was nothing to the world how persons lived who were differently situated, yet in the situation of Mr. Chinnery such a course must appear reprehensible to all. He farther told him, that he had always observed, that when a man greatly exceeded his income, there was but little security for his honour, and that feeling this, he should communicate his thoughts on the subject to his right hon. friend."—He thought there was no excuse for Mr. Chinnery, as he had been living in a shamefully extravagant manner for 14 or 15 years. Mr. Chinnery had been in the habit of giving concerts, which were attended by performers of the first celebrity. When he spoke to him on this subject, he was answered, by Mr. Chinnery, that they were friends of his, and that these musicians would receive no pay, and consequently the charge of his concerts was but trifling. He knew persons of great consideration who were in the habit of attending these concerts, but he had never gone to one, lest he should seem to give his sanction to such doings. The only time he was ever in Mr. Chinnery's house was, when he went to stand god-father to that young man, with whose name the public were familiar (Mr. Chinnery, jun.) When a Bill was brought in two years ago by the hon. baronet opposite, he had endeavoured-to frame it to meet cases like the present, and he thought at that time that if he could be aid hold of, Mr. Chinnery might be the first affected by that Bill. He was not aware that this subject would be touched upon, or he would have brought the correspondence which had taken place on the subject with him, to shew how anxious he had been to induce Mr. Chinnery to change his conduct, not only within the last one or two years, but for the last 14 or 15 years.
Mr. H. Martinthought the mode of issuing money was highly improper. If the right hon. gentleman opposite would not suggest a plan, he would, on a future day, make a motion to that effect.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that a change which had been made in that department would be a security against the recurrence of such an accident. He meant, that the clerks should be audited every quarter.
Mr. Bankeshad no doubt but government was at present perfectly awake to the disease, he might say, consumption,

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which had been preying on them for so many years. But, in his opinion, there was nothing that could give a check to it but constant auditing. The two persons, who filled the situation of auditors, he had the greatest confidence in, he meant Mr. Thompson, third secretary to the Treasury, and Mr. Cotton, chief cleric under him; they were both fully capable of their office; but accounts ought to be oftener examined.