Commons Sitting of 18 March 1812

PETITION FROM BOLTON RELATIVE TO PARLIAMENTARY REFORM, &C.
Mr. Whitbreadpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Bolton-in-the-Moors, assembled pursuant to public advertisement, setting forth,
"That many of the Petitioners are, in consequence of the depressed state of trade, in a situation of extreme distress,
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and that the distress approaches so nearly to actual starvation, that they think it would be highly imprudent any longer to delay communicating their situation to the House: and that immense numbers of the industrious manufacturers in their neighbourhood, are reduced to the necessity of working for less than one fourth of what they would previous to the commencement of the war with France, whilst the necessaries of life are, since that period, nearly doubled in price; and that they are convinced, by sad and dear-bought experience, that the expensive war in which this country has been so long engaged, is the immediate cause of the distresses they now labour under; and that the continuance of this war, and most of its concomitant evils, are attributable to the imperfect representation of the people in the House; and it is the humble opinion of the Petitioners, that if the House consisted of representatives of the people only, it would not, for any doubtful prospect of benefit to our allies, consent to expose the people of this country to the certain misery, ruin and starvation, which the continuance of the war must bring upon them; and that, though the Petitioners have, on many occasions, been proud to express their loyalty and patriotism, and their willingness to sacrifice their lives, if necessary, in defence of their invaluable constitution; yet they cannot help shrinking from the horrible form in which death now seems to await them and their helpless families, unalleviated by any circumstances of glory or of advantage to their beloved country; and praying, that the House will take into its serious consideration the privations and sufferings of his Majesty's loyal subjects in their populous district, and will devise some speedy means of relieving them; and further, that the House will, by all the means in its power, endeavour to bring about the so much wished for Reform in the Representation of the people: and will also recommend to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that no means be left untried which are likely to restore to his Majesty's loyal and long-suffering people the blessings of peace."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Mr. Baringsaid, that he rose for the purpose of moving for an Account of the total amount of money raised for the public service, in each year, from 1790 to 1811, by taxes, or by increase of the National Debt; and

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also for an Account of the sums expended by the commissioners for reducing the National Debt, during the same period. His object in making this motion was, to bring under one view the manner in which the funds had been raised for carrying on the present war, both in taxes and by way of loan, which he thought peculiarly desirable during the discussion which was likely to take place on those points, directly or indirectly, in consequence of the Bill brought in last night. He begged leave also to take that opportunity of correcting a misrepresentation which had gone abroad of what had fallen from him last night, and which he was induced to do, not from any importance that could be attached to his opinions, but because the expressions ascribed to him were of a nature to affect the public credit. It had been stated that he said, the Bank of England was unable to pay their notes in specie. So far was he from having made such an assertion, that his whole argument was, that he thought their ability to meet their engagements made the proposed enquiry useless. He always had thought that the Bank could pay in specie, but the difficulty was as to the supplying the quantity of paper called for by the country. He drew no comparison between the funds of the Bank now, and in the year 1797, and he wished it to be understood that he was not disposed to draw such a comparison. He begged pardon for occupying the attention of the House, but thought the delicacy of the subject demanded some explanation.
The Accounts were accordingly ordered.

DISTILLATION FROM GRAIN IN IRELAND.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, that before he made the motion with which he meant to conclude, he wished first to remove from the minds of gentlemen any misconception, relative to the existence of any insufficiency of a supply of corn in Ireland. It was not his wish to spread any alarm of scarcity, and this he thought necessary to specify, because it too frequently happened, that the discussion of a subject was a sufficient ground for alarm. It was true, that in some local districts some deficiency might be found to exist, and, on that account, he thought it incumbent on the Irish government to direct their attention to the subject, that if no ground for apprehension was found to exist, the public clamour or alarm might be silenced. In another point of view,
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he was averse to any interference with the corn laws, and was one of those who thought such interference productive of more harm than good; and with respect to Ireland, he doubted whether any limitation should be placed to the export of corn, as he conceived that country to be equal to supply more than it did at present to England. He deprecated the idea of encouraging distillation from corn as a source of revenue, as it sometimes created a pressure which was severely felt; and it was the duty of government to sacrifice any small object of revenue to the comforts of the people. The food of the poor in Ireland being chiefly potatoes, the high price of corn only affected them when there was a failure of the crop of potatoes, which was the only proof on the subject. In such a case, he thought it the duty of government to put a stop at once to distillation. He was given to understand, that the consumption of grain in Dublin was nearly double, in consequence of the distillation from grain in that city—a permission by which industry was discouraged, and immorality promoted. He must repeat, however, that there did not exist the least reason to apprehend a scarcity in Ireland, and that there was a redundancy of provisions in one part of the country sufficient to preserve the reasonable price, and to supply any deficiency that might partially exist. He concluded by moving, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the number of gallons of Irish-made spirits on which duty was paid in Ireland, from the 5th day of January, 1811, to the latest period to which the same can be made up; distinguishing the districts, together with the amount of duty paid thereon."
Mr. W. Polesaid, that he had no objection to grant the information required by the hon. gentleman. In the general view which the hon. gentleman had taken of the subject, he perfectly agreed. He understood the hon. gentleman to state, that he did not think that there was any ground for apprehending that there was a scarcity of grain in Ireland. He had taken every means in his power to obtain the most accurate information upon this subject, and he was convinced there was no danger of scarcity. It was true that the prices of grain were very different in different parts of Ireland, but that Variety of price did not arise from any deficiency of grain. Very unpleasant circumstances bad occurred in different parts of Ireland, where

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the people had endeavoured to prevent grain from being sent to the Dublin market, under a mistaken notion that it would cause a scarcity; but when a free intercourse was opened between the different parts of the kingdom, the result was, that the markets were all supplied, and the prices lowered. He was therefore warranted in saying, that even in the districts alluded to by the hon. gentleman, there was no reason to apprehend a scarcity. He agreed with the hon. gentleman, that if there was any ground to apprehend a scarcity, it would become the duty of the Irish government to stop the distilleries; but he knew, from information upon which he could place the most perfect reliance, that all the distillers in Dublin, Cork, and Limerick, were now amply supplied with grain to carry on their business to the fullest extent for ten weeks to come. The regular time at which distillers ceased to work was the 1st of June; last year they ceased on that day, and he had no doubt that he could prevail upon them to cease at the same period this year. As they had therefore already a sufficient supply of grain to carry them on till within a few days of the time at which they would naturally cease working, there was no reason to apprehend that they would come into the market, and by their purchases increase the price of the article. It should also be observed, that the grain in the possession of the distillers was in such a state, being either malted or kiln dried, or in some such state of process, that it could not be made use of for the purpose of food, even if the distilleries were slopped. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. gentleman would see, that the measure which he had suggested could not tend in any degree to afford any relief to the people of Ireland. The price of grain had certainly risen in Ireland, but that was not owing to the distilleries, but to the free intercourse in grain, which subsisted between Great Britain and Ireland, and the price in the former country being so much greater than it was in the latter, a very great export naturally took place from Ireland. He most highly approved of the free intercourse in grain between the two countries. No man at all acquainted with the state of Ireland, could shut his eyes to the astonishing improvements which had taken place in the agriculture of that country, in consequence of the act proposed by the right hon. baronet opposite to him (sir John Newport) for fa-
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cilitating that intercourse. But when he stated that the price of wheat was 16 s. a barrel more in London than it was in Dublin, it was impossible to suppose that a great export to this country should not take place. Whether, if any serious scarcity were to take place in Ireland, it might not be proper for government to take a review of the act to which he had alluded, was another question; but certainly, under the present circumstances, he for one would not consent to touch that act. Gentlemen were not, perhaps, aware, that in the last year, the import of grain into this country from Ireland was in the, proportion of one to three of what Great Britain imported from the rest of the world; formerly the average of the proportion was only as one to ten. The importation of grain into this country from Ireland was not only great, but it was progressively increasing. The importation in the last four months was greater than the whole importation of any one preceding year, and the importation of the last month was greater by one-fourth than the proportion of the four months. He did not think it necessary to take up more of the time of the House, as he did not mean to give any opposition to the hon. gentleman's motion. If any case of scarcity were to arise, the attention of the Irish government would of course be most closely directed to the subject. At present he agreed with the hon. gentleman, that there was no ground for any such apprehension. The crop of potatoes, it was true, was rather scanty, bat they were of a good quality; and he was sure that, from the steps which had been taken to enable the farmers to carry their produce to market without interruption, the prices of grain in Ireland would not increase, and therefore that there would be no occasion for the interposition of parliament.
Sir John Newportentirely agreed in the opinion, that there was nothing like a scarcity to be apprehended, and that where any deficiency existed, it arose from the stoppage of the regular intercourse through the country, by which alone plenty could be ensured. The farmer locked up his corn in his granaries, and the people defeated their own objects. He believed that at all times there was a considerable advance on oats at this season of the year, particularly when the crop of potatoes failed; and it was to be recollected that the distilleries had laid in their stock, and their demand ceased at this time. Above

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all things he entreated the House not to entertain any idea of fixing a maximum almost under any contingent circumstances; and he reminded them, that when he introduced the Bill, for which he had been so undeservedly complimented by the right hon. gentleman, he had cautioned them against fixing a maximum, for it would operate as a permanent discouragement to the tillage farmer, and if held over him, as a probable measure, would, like the sword of Damocles, paralyse all his exertions. Any limitation of the exports of corn would have the same effect as a restriction, and he hoped the united kingdoms were fully able to furnish corn enough for their consumption, without any foreign aid. As to the prices of; corn in the London market, it was to be observed, that a considerable addition must be made to the price of the corn exported from Ireland before it reached the English market, and also that the quality of corn grown in a moist soil (like that of Ireland) was inferior; at all events, the intercourse should not be meddled with, as the evil complained of would correct itself. There was a considerable exportation of corn from Ireland to Portugal and Cadiz, for the use of the armies, and he would rather meddle with that than the regular intercourse between the two countries, by which the farming interest would be alarmed, and that spirit repressed which arose from the Bill of last session. He was sure the right hon. gentleman was not inclined to take such a step, but as he had thrown out a hint to that effect, he thought it his duty to express his sentiments of the evils which were to be apprehended from it.
Mr. W. Polesaid, in explanation, that the right hon. baronet understood him in a stronger sense than he intended—he merely meant to state in fairness, that the difference in price might make it a question whether some limits should not be put to it.
Mr. Marryattsaid, that the consumption of grain in the Irish distilleries was prodigious, as besides the consumption of that country, Ireland exported near a thousand puncheons of spirits a week. He thought that in determining this question, the price of corn in this country ought to be attended to as well as the price of corn in Ireland. It was evident that while there was a free intercourse of corn between the two Countries, the price of it in Ireland must be affected by the price of it
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in Great Britain. He thought that it was due to the poor manufacturers of Great Britain, who were now living on reduced wages, and with an increased price of pro-visions, to take measures for preventing the unnecessary consumption of grain in the Irish distilleries. If this waste of grain were stopped, our manufactures might be sent out to pay for West India sugar, and the manufactures might be restored to their former wages.
The motion was then agreed to.