Commons Sitting of 17 March 1812

PETITION FROM THE FRAME WORK KNITTERS OF LEICESTER AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
Mr. Samuel Smithpresented a Petition from the Frame Work Knitters of Leicester, praying for the Repeal of the Orders in Council, in as far as regarded America, and also against the renewal of the East India Company's charter. The hon. member assured the House, that the present Petitioners had uniformly conducted themselves in the most orderly and becoming manner, and now came to the House, praying that the final stab might not, by a war with America, be a ruin to their manufactures. The present Petition was signed by 11,000 persons.
Mr. Babingtonconcurred in bearing testimony to the temperate and orderly conduct of the manufacturers in Leicestershire who cast their eyes only to that House for relief. They now trusted to the wisdom of that House to avert from them, in the words of their Petition, the greatest of all calamities, starvation in a land of plenty.
The Petition was then read, setting forth "That the Petitioners feel them selves sorely aggrieved on account of the sad depression in their trade: and that it most clearly appears to them that the Orders in Council, as they relate to America, are the cause of this falling off of our commerce;
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and that the Petitioners have been kept at restricted employ by the various speculations which have been carried on by their employers, in the hope that the Orders in Council would be repealed, and that ultimately a good understanding might be brought about between this country and America; and that, from this, it is clear that the measure prayed for is the last hope of the Petitioners; and, though they would not presume to dictate to the House, yet they cannot but consider America as placed by the belligerents in a most critical situation, and, as a war with one of the contending powers may be the result, a repeal of the Orders would, in fact, be a stumbling-block to France, and America would probably open her ports to our vessels, and throw herself on our protection; and that the Petitioners see with much concern the charter of the East India Company about to be renewed, seeing they engross the whole of the trade to the Eastern seas, without any advantage to the country, but only to themselves; and praying the House to take their Petition into early and serious consideration, and to adopt such measures thereon as to them shall seem meet."
Ordered to lie upon the table

PETITION FROM BELFAST RESPECTING COIN.
Lord Castlereaghpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Belfast, setting forth,

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"That the Petitioners have suffered, and continue to suffer, much inconvenience and expence in their dealings, arising from the excessive price and scarcity of guineas: and praying, that they may be put on the same footing with Great Britain, in any future Bill which may be introduced into parliament respecting payments in specie." The noble lord said, that when the Bill passed last session, he had opposed its being then extended to Ireland, because there were scarcely any Irish members at that time in attendance at the House; and it would not have been right to pass an act of that momentous importance, and to make it binding on Ireland, in the absence of almost all its representatives. Since that time, however, guineas had become so scarce there, that they could not be procured under 4s. 6d. and 5s. premium, making an increase of 25 per cent. besides the time lost, and trouble acquired by those who had absolute occasion for them. He was glad to understand that his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intended in the Bill which he was this night to move for leave to bring in, to continue the act of last session, to extend the provisions of it to Ireland; but he still thought he was only fulfilling his duty in bringing forward this Petition, which had been transmitted to him from an apprehension that such was not to be the case. The high premium for guineas had pressed very and on such tenants as were obliged to pay in gold, by rendering it difficult to procure the cash for their rents in time. Indeed, under such circumstances, the country could not have long carried on any branch of business, had it not been for the humanity and liberal sentiments of the greatest part of the landlords. But there were still some exceptions, which occasioned individual oppression, and it was the object of the Petition to remove such.
Mr. Wellesley Poleagreed that there would be great injustice, if the enactments of the Bill, which had been passed as applicable to England, during the last year, were not now extended to Ireland. He was happy, therefore, that his right hon. friend, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had determined to extend the provisions of the Bill which he was about to move for leave to bring in, to Ireland, thereby communicating the same advantages to one part of the empire as to the other.
Mr. Stewartallowed, that great inconve-
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nience arose from the present practice in Ireland.
The Petition was then brought up and read, and was ordered to lie on the table;

GOLD COIN AND BANK NOTE AMENDMENT BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose for the purpose of moving, that the act of last session, making Bank Notes a legal tender, in certain cases, be continued under certain amendments, and that its provisions be extended to Ireland. It was not necessary, he observed, in this stage of the proceeding, to make many observations, but looking back to the discussion that took place last session when he introduced a similar measure, he was aware that the Bill (if the House permitted him to bring it in), would not pass without occasioning very considerable discussions. He would shortly slate the course which he would propose the House to adopt on the present occasion. He bad no intention whatever of hurrying the Bill through the House, as many gentlemen members for Ireland were at present necessarily engaged in that kingdom, and from the nature of their engagements at the different assizes would not be enabled to attend the discussions for some time; he should therefore propose to read the Bill a first and second lime before the holidays, to have it printed, and then to appoint some day after the recess for the commitment of it, in order that gentlemen from Ireland might be present at the discussion of the various provisions. He would now barely state the nature of the circumstances which induced him to recommend the continuance of the measure. He did not intend to make any other alteration in the provisions, further than extending the operation of the Bill to Ireland, and providing that payments of Bank notes into court, out of court, and in process of law, should be deemed legal payments. Since the passing of the last Bill, he had ascertained that in the courts of King's bench. Common Pleas, and Exchequer, there had been but three actions brought on the question of legality of tender. One was an action of replevin tried before lord Ellenborough, where a tender in Bank notes was proved; but in the present state of the law that was deemed not a sufficient answer to the action. The other was an action of my lord King against one of his tenants for the small sum of 45 l. the object of which was evidently merely to try the question: the

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money was paid into court and the proceedings were stayed, the noble lord haying previously given notice that he would not receive notes as legal tender. The other was also an action for a small sum which was paid into court, and no subsequent proceedings took place. These were the only cases which he had been able to find upon record. According to the provisions of the Bill, it did not occasion any impediment to prosecutions if the public had been inclined to quarrel with it, therefore he was justified in saying that there was no great disposition to resist the measure, nor did the public feel much oppression from it, because if they felt aggrieved, actions in many instances would have been brought. The circumstance of so few being instituted, shewed that the public were not anxious to procure money in payment of their demands. He was, of course, confirmed in the opinion he had expressed when the matter was last before the House, that hostility to the measure was not a sentiment generally prevalent in the country, and that there were but few who would be inclined to follow the example of the noble lord (King). It might be said, if the evil was of so very limited an extent, there was no need of a remedy. In this he could not concur; for if men once found that they could, by oppression against their neighbours, promote their own advantage, there were, he was afraid, many who, if not restrained by law, would not scruple to do so; but the rarity of the attempt to commit an evil afforded consolation when a remedy was sought to be provided against it: and the present measure was only giving security to that species of payment which the great body of the people were evidently willing to receive. With these few observations he should content himself, and move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to continue and amend an act of the last session of parliament, for making more effectual provision for preventing the current gold coin of the realm from being paid or accepted for a greater value than the current value of such coin, for preventing any note or bill of the governor and company of the Bank of England from being received for any smaller sum than the sum thereat; specified, and for staying proceedings upon a distress by tender of such notes, and to extend the same to Ireland."
Lord Folkestonesaid he was unable, even in that early stage of the business, to avoid
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expressing his astonishment at the very flippant manner in which the right hon. gentleman had introduced and argued the present motion, when the question was actually neither more nor less than that of making bank-notes a legal tender. The language of the right hon. gentleman when the Bill was originally brought forward, towards the close of last session, and on the spur of a pretended occasion, was very different. He then said it was merely an experiment called for to meet a particular exigency, and it was generally understood that the Bill was not intended to be renewed, until at least it had been duly examined in all its various bearings. Yet within nine days before the expiration of that Bill, the right hon. gentleman came down to propose not only its revival but an additional provision, which it was obvious, would have exactly the same effect as making Bank-notes a legal tender. Besides this, there were other circumstances that had passed this night, which ought, in his opinion, to determine the House to pause before they gave leave to bring in this Bill. The noble lord opposite (Castlereagh) had last year objected particularly to the extending of this Bill to Ireland, because bargains in the north of that country being made for payment in gold, it would have the effect of defrauding the creditors. It would consequently be well to consider whether the present petitioners from Belfast, who complained of a loss of 25 per cent. on the payments in gold, were debtors or creditors—tenants or landlords? Whether they meant to relieve themselves from their obligations by a cheaper mode of payment, or whether they were impelled by generosity to relieve those who were indebted to them? It seemed that all contracts for lands in Ireland had been made for payment of the rent in gold; and now, if these petitioners were tenants, it would shew clearly they were desirous to pay in a medium of less value than gold. He thought the House would be wary how they admitted this: if the contract was made expressly for a gold payment, which had, as he was informed, long been the custom in Ireland, forcing the party who had a right in virtue of his contract to receive gold only, to accept of paper in its stead, would be highly unjust, and was a good argument against the Bill being extended. One of the main reasons adduced in favour of the Bill of last session was, the increased and increasing price of gold.

7
Now if he was rightly informed, gold was diminishing in price, and therefore the attempt to continue the Bill only shewed that ministers were determined to have such a Bill in all cases, and at any rate. Though the price of gold was now actually diminished, it was however by no means in consequence of the Bill of last session, because gold rose in price for some months after it passed, and the greatest distress was experienced in the western parts of England, particularly for want of silver to carry on the common concerns of trade; and in most towns the inhabitants were under the necessity of issuing out tokens of their own, to avoid a total stagnation of the most ordinary business. Another reason against renewing the Bill, was, that it had failed in one of its principal objects, viz. that of preventing more than one-and-twenty-shillings being given for a guinea. The Bill only provided against giving more than a Banknote and a shilling for a guinea; but by changing the Bank of England for country bank-notes, you might add as many shillings to those as you pleased, and could not be hurt for it; so that it was daily and hourly evaded with impunity. As a proof of this, there had only one conviction taken place since passing the Act, and that was of a man seduced into the transaction by a police-officer sent on purpose to trepan him into the fact. The provisions of the Act had not been accomplished, nor would be accomplished: and he hoped, therefore, the House would exercise its discretion, before it gave a sanction to the renewal of such a Bill. As to the new clause proposed by the right hon. gentleman, and which went not only materially to alter the Bill, but also to substitute a fictitious circulating medium, as a legal tender for payment, in lieu of the standard coin of the realm, he conjured the House to pause before they consented to entertain a proposition so ruinous to the credit and to the vital interests of the country.
Lord Castlereaghwas not disposed at present to go into any arguments on the Bill, as frequent opportunities would hereafter occur for the discussion of its merits. He should only notice that the noble lord seemed to adhere to the opinions entertained by him last session, and to press his opposition before the Bill was brought in. He wished to correct him in two points, in which he appeared to be under misapprehension with respect to what he
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(lord C.) and his right hon. friend had stated. The reason which he had for not extending the measure to Ireland last session, was on account of the absence of many Irish members, and not from any view that it would not be desirable for that country. He had stated that it was his opinion that the circumstances of Ireland, in a certain degree, varied from those of England, so as to exclude at that time its introduction. As to the supposed pledge of his right hon. friend, he apprehended, that he had stated quite the reverse of what the noble lord had imputed to him; for his right hon. friend bad stated, that if nothing short of making Bank notes a legal tender would serve to correct the evil, a remedy to that extent must be applied. He thought, that so long as the Bank of England were prohibited by law from paying their notes in gold, the legislature owed it to the subject to protect him against any demands which were not under these circumstances equitable; because, by not affording that protection, great injustice might be done to the subjects of the realm. In that opinion his right hon. friend had coincided. With respect to the practice in Belfast and its vicinity, the noble lord was misinformed, for the practice was the reverse of what he had stated; contracts were made there to pay in pounds sterling, and not in gold. Guineas had ceased to be the circulating medium, and therefore the subject could not pay his debts in gold; and ought to be protected by law from being called upon to do that which it was totally out of his power to effect.
Lord Folkestoneexplained, that he had a clear recollection on both the points, in which the noble lord had supposed him to be in error.
Mr. Tierneywould not oppose the motion for leave to bring in the Bill, but observed that it was very evident from the speech of the right hon. gentleman him self, that the country was already in the situation which bad been predicted last session, namely, in a situation of moving from bad to worse. He asked in what respect did this measure fall short of making Bank notes a legal tender? The answer was, that they were to be legal tenders only in a court of justice. But what law was there which could compel any man to part with his goods or property contrary to his inclination? The fact was, that this Bill went to affect immediately all interests and every class of society. If he

9
were to buy 1,000 l. worth of plate, would he not be perfectly secure in paying for the commodity in Bank notes? If the silversmith brought an action in a court of law, the payment into court of 1,000 l. in Bank notes would be an acquittal of the defendant. And how then could this Bill be said not to go the full length of making these notes a legal tender? He implored the House to consider well this subject before they came to a decision upon it. Unless he could himself perceive an altered disposition in the House, he should deem all endeavour at argument superfluous and unnecessary, for, after the protracted and lucid discussion which the measure of last session had undergone, after the able report which had been presented by the committee on the subject, nothing could be expected from opposition but obloquy, and the man who stood forward against the Bill would be accused of a wish to subvert public credit. At the same time, he had that opinion of the right hon. gentleman's good sense as to believe, that he had experienced no small degree of pain in coming to a resolution to submit such a proposition to the House. He knew indeed that the right hon. gentleman dared not meddle with the Bank.—He knew that the government had proceeded so far, that the Bank had become its masters, and the masters of the finance of the country.—It remained therefore for that House to resume its character and exercise its duties, by shewing to the Bank that at least parliament was above them, and was determined to protect the credit of the country. He could not see in what manner it would fall short of a direct fraud, to compel the subject to take in payment for goods of real value a paper, the value of which it was impossible for him to ascertain. There had been much talk of the French assignats, but in one point of view their forced circulation was less atrocious than that of Bank-notes, inasmuch as the assignats were grounded on some sort of pledged security, on national domains, the property of the state. [Here the Chancellor of the Exchequer smiled.]—The right hon. gentleman smiled at his venturing to contrast the enormous issues of the French government with those of the Bank of England; but he was prepared to contend that the French did at least seek to save appearances, which was more than the right hon. gentleman thought it worth his care to do. This new manifestation of his views and intentions, ought to make
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every man of property pause before he any longer placed his confidence in parliament, which was now about to sanction a measure that must necessarily prove a mortal blow to the credit of the Bank itself. The Bank had now no other interest than the interests of their own monopoly to attend to. The time once was when their corporate interests went band in band with the commercial and financial interests of the country; but they had now become distinct and separate, and no other security remained for the public but the forbearance of the Bank. He meant no reflection whatever on the individual characters of the directors—with many of them he had lived in habits of personal confidence; for some of whom he bad the highest personal esteem. But as a corporate body their conduct had no claim on his respect—they had in that capacity deserved no confidence, except the confidence of the right hon. gentleman, whom they were always prepared to accommodate. He knew of nothing that they had done for the promotion of the public interests, but he knew of much for the gratification of their own thirst and eagerness of gain. It was now incumbent on them to shew what they had hitherto pertinaciously concealed—he meant the real amount of their profits since the suspension of cash payments. As soon as the immediate question should be disposed of, he would take the liberty of moving for this account, as well as for a committee to inquire into the state of the affairs of the Bank. This might serve to shew that there were some who did not shrink from doing their duty on this occasion, and who wished to warn the House upon the new and perilous crisis to which they were arriving. He would at least not be one of those to lead the people of this country ad ignotum per ignota to a situation in which the establishment of a legal tender would leave no other security than the gold and silver in the actual possession of the Bank. He did not mean to say that for every note that was issued a corresponding sum should be kept in its coffers, but when he saw the directors and the right hon. gentleman in league together to give a forced currency to Bank notes, he had a right to satisfy himself about the intrinsic value of those notes. He recollected that one of the governors of the Bank had last session represented himself as entertaining considerable objections to the measure of a legal tender, and he should be now

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happy to learn that the hon. gentleman remained unaltered in his opinion. He was aware that by the employment of certain arts, and by certain means, almost the whole of the commercial interest had been taught to believe, that their prosperity was essentially connected with the present system of Bank issues. He knew that ail this might be urged again, and that he might easily be described as a person who wished to destroy the credit of the country. He should, however, have no recourse to argument on the present question, because he believed that all argument upon it had been exhausted last session by several of his friends about him, and particularly by one hon. and learned gentleman whom he did not then see in his place (Mr. Horner). "Let the right hon. gentleman then," said Mr. Tierney, take all the responsibility of this proceeding to himself', he is known to plume himself upon his stoutness, and his contempt of majorities or minorities, and he has this day given a pretty good earnest of it. I believe that no other minister would have dared to come down to this House and propose to make the promissory notes of a corporate commercial body a legal tender. Let the right hon. gentleman then continue to advise only with his faithful directors, I shall give him no further opposition, because I believe it to be utterly useless. I shall therefore conclude by declaring before God, that I speak not from the influence of party views when I lay my hand upon my heart, and express it as the settled conviction of my mind, that the measure now proposed will operate to blast for ever the credit of the Bank, and the financial security of the country, and I sit down solemnly protesting against it accordingly."
Lord Castlereaghsaid, in explanation, that there was a substantial distinction between compelling the acceptance of notes as a legal tender, and making them a legal tender into court.
Mr. Whitbreadridiculed the distinction drawn by the noble lord, which, he contended, amounted to nothing.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad never supposed that the opposition made by the right hon. gentleman, or those who acted with him, was for the purpose of destroying the credit of the country, but he had conceived that the enlightened policy, as it was called, proposed by them would, if adopted, have proved ruinous and ineffectual.—With respect to the charge of stoutness and disregard of being in a ma-
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jority or a minority, made against him by the right hon. gentleman, he could assure him that he was far from feeling so indifferent as he was represented to be, on that point. In the measures he proposed, he was actuated by a strong conviction of their being such as were approved of by the great majority of the feeling and sense of live country as well as of parliament; and the right hon. gentleman himself had been obliged to confess that he was aware the measure was so popular, while be protested against it, that he knew it was in vain for him to oppose it, though he attributed this popularity to the impositions practised on the country by artful and designing men. It was rather a singular way of supporting his argument, for the right hon. gentleman to confess that the entire mercantile body of the country was against him He really conceived that they were as likely to form a true estimate of their own interests as the right hon. gentleman. He no doubt felt some pain in proposing this measure, but he must be a hardy politician, indeed, who in the present circumstances of the world would do any thing to endanger the credit of the Bank. As to the mode of endangering it, he knew that he differed widely from the right hon. gentleman. He believed it to be perfectly impossible, at present, whatever it might be at other periods, to fix any precise limit to the issues of the Bank, without producing serious occasional inconvenience to the public service. With respect to the disposition of the right hon. gentleman not to oppose this measure, he would be extremely happy to see this disposition exerted on other occasions, and extended to all questions relative to the policy of the present administration.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the right hon. gentleman was mistaken in supposing, that he would not oppose any measure brought forward by him; he would give no such pledge, as he never saw any gentleman whom he was so much inclined to oppose.
The House then divided, when there appeared—

For the Motion

73

Against it

26

Majority

—47

Leave was accordingly given to bring in the Bill.

MOTION RESPECTING THE OUTSTANDING DEMANDS ON THE BANK.
Mr. Tierneyimmediately moved, "That a

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Secret Committee be appointed to examine the total amount of the outstanding demands on the Bank of England, and likewise of the funds for discharging the same; and that they do also enquire into, and report their opinion upon, the effects produced by the Order in Council of the 27th of February 1797."
Mr. Manningobjected to the motion; and stated, that the Bill which had been brought in that night was not introduced at the desire or request of the Bank of England, any more than the Bill of last session, commonly called Lord Stanhope's Bill. He spoke not in the character of a Bank Director, but from himself alone. In that view, he could not see any necessity for the committee which was proposed. If, indeed, the Bank Directors had desired the present measure, he should think it a sufficient reason for the appointment of a committee. The actual amount of the issue of Bank notes at present was 22,500,000 l. which, of course, did not include Bank tokens. If any member moved for any particular return, he would second it. He was surprised that any member should so far under-value the securities of the Bank: as every acre of land in the country might be considered as forming a part of the securities for the Exchequer Bills. There was a debt owing from government to the Bank of 11,600,000 l. and the two loans, which altogether amounted to near twenty millions. This was sufficient security. The Exchequer Bills, as he had before observed, stood on the most solid ground. He thought that parliament was right in calling, from time to time, for the amount of Bank notes in circulation, and for other particalars, but he could see no reason for entering into such a committee as the hon. member proposed. As to what had been said of the sordid and selfish views of the Bank, many matters of great public interest had been assisted by the liberality of the management of the Bank; and he challenged the right hon. gentleman to show a single instance in which the public had not received their portion of the profits said to have been made by that corporation.
Mr. H. Thorntonobjected to the motion. The amount of Exchequer Bills and loans, &c. was generally known. If the question stood on the solvency of the Bank, then it ought to go to the committee that a report might be made, which would shew that an opinion adverse to the Bank's solvency
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rested on a false foundation. He was favourable to all fair and reasonable enquiry, but he must say, that it was not the object of the Bank Directors to gain base lucre. If they were misled, it was in their wish to assist the mercantile world. The measure now proposed might be necessary, though uncalled for by the Bank, and though it went beyond what had been enacted last year.
Mr. Johnstonewould vote for the motion, though he disclaimed all idea of imputation upon the conduct of the Bank Directors, who had shewn more moderation in the issue of paper-money than had been practised in any other country, when that expedient had been adopted. He could not agree with his right hon. friend, that the Bank were masters of the minister: but the contrary. It was the fault, not of the Bank but of parliament, that things were in their present situation. If the Bank were left to itself, he should have no fear of the proposition of a legal tender. He wished the country to know what were the assets of the Bank independent of what consisted in government securities, which latter (in Exchequer Bills) amounted at this moment to no less a sum than 7,500,000 l. There was no doubt that the Bank could discharge all its debts, as it related to itself; but the connection with government was a different thing; and a time would come when that would be a serious consideration. Every nation that had adopted a practice similar to the present, had run a career of bankruptcy; and the effect must be serious, if men were compelled to take a Bank note as a legal tender. The mischief had been done by parliament itself in compelling the Bank to advance money when they were making extraordinary issues of paper, which had raised the paper issue up to 22 millions. Government were the means of doing this, in consequence of the embarrassments which they had experienced from the deficiencies of the late Mr. Goldsmid.
Mr. Marryattthought the reason for opposing the motion extraordinary as urged by the deputy governor of the Bank, (Mr. Manning), namely, that the Bank had not required it. Did any public body come to parliament and ask for such an enquiry into their concerns? Nothing was more unlikely. He was far from wishing to overthrow the credit of the Bank, and he thought its credit would be best supported by a fair enquiry. What was said of the Bank would be as applicable to govern-

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ment respecting sinecure places. In both instances the parties would be benefitted, and gain more credit by enquiry. The longer we went on in the present fatal paper system, the worse should we find our situation. The deputy governor of the Bank was last year against the legal tender; now he had a little changed his opinion. What it might be next year it was not possible to tell. One circumstance was important. A Bill lay on the table to make the embezzlement of property a higher crime, in consequence of the repeated failures of bankers, and other occurrences. The misconduct of the bankers was owing in a great degree to the change of the practice at the Bank since the restrictions on their cash payments. After that restriction they offered their discounts in an unprecedented manner, and the bankers lost sight of all prudence and circumspection: the results of which had produced astonishing occurrences. The discount system had been carried to an extent almost incredible. Every failure of this sort had been owing to the conduct of the Bank of England; whereas, formerly, the bankruptcy of a banker was a very rare thing. That of Fordyce, many years back, was still talked of: such an event was formerly thought to be like a dreadful fire, or a plague: fit to be registered in a chronological table. Bat now, by the new plan, in the course of eleven years, there had been eleven bankers in the Gazette, out of the sixty in London. Their failures were likely to be as common as those of underwriters or any other traders whatever. Every one of these bankrupt bankers had kept a discount account with the Bank of England. He had not the list in his pocket, or he could read the proofs of his assertion to the House. None had failed who did not carry on such accounts. He viewed the Bank as useful and absolutely necessary, and on that account felt that any abuse of it ought to be guarded against. He knew indeed that the governor and directors were bound by an oath, but it was an oath which related to their duties only as a corporate body.
Mr. Manningexplained, and re-stated, that lord Stanhope's Bill was not desired by the Bank.
Mr. Baringsaid, that if we went on year after year borrowing, while we diminished our means of repayment, the nation like an individual, must come to a bankruptcy. If there were any reasonable
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doubts of the Bank's solvency, a good reason would be furnished for appointing a committee; but he could not understand his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney), when he called the Bank rich and prosperous, and afterwards said they might be in a state of bankruptcy. The truth was, that the Bank had it not in their power at the present moment to pay their debts in bullion, not having sufficient in their possession; and it was useless to endeavour to make them perform impossibilities. He believed that only a few bankers applied to the Bank for discounts, since it would rather affect their credit to do so, as it would affect that of an eminent merchant. As the motion might tend to excite distrust in the country with respect to the solvency of the Bank, he could not give it his support.
Mr. Hibbertsupported the motion. It would be a great evil to make a Bank-note a legal tender. He bore testimony to the honourable conduct of the Bank Directors, who, he believed, acted from the purest ideas of supporting commerce; but he thought that there would be great doubts in the public mind, unless parliament appointed a committee, as they had done in 1797.
Mr. Abercrombybegged to call the attention of the House to the admission made by an hon. Bank Director (Mr. Baring) who acknowledged that perseverance in the present system would be attended with the ultimate ruin of the country, and yet contended, that not persevering in it would be equally destructive, because it would prevent us from vigorously prosecuting the war. Surely, when men of so much experience involved themselves in such evident contradictions, it was reasonable that some enquiry should be made. There was no guarantee that the Bank of England should not either increase their debt or diminish the small quantity of bullion remaining in their hands. When to these circumstances was subjoined, the declaration of the deputy governor of the Bank of England, that every acre of land in the country was pledged for the payment of their notes, he thought there could he no hesitation in appointing the committee.
Mr. Manningexplained that he had said, that his own land as well as that of every other proprietor, was answerable in a due proportion for the payment of the Exchequer Bills, which was a public debt of the nation.
Mr. Baringsaid, the observation he had made was, that there was not a sufficiency of bullion to enable the Bank to resume cash payments.
Mr. Tierney, in reply, insisted that the issue of Bank notes had been greatly augmented since the year 1797, and as Exchequer Bills were secured by the notes, the landed property of the country was put in jeopardy at the will of the directors of the Bank of England. He begged to know if the other side of the House would consent to the production of an account shewing the quantity of Exchequer Bills purchased by the Bank of England from government in the public market, which had been hitherto with-held?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer to the declaration of an hon. and learned gentleman, that all the land of the country might be confiscated to pay the Exchequer Bills in the possession of the Bank, observed, that it might as well be said, that a gentleman possessed of au estate of 10,000 l. a year, and having a mortgage of 10,000 l. upon it, ran a risk of having all his land confiscated; for the Bank could not possess more Exchequer Bills than were issued by government, viz. 43 or 44 millions. On the subject of the motion, he thought that on the right hon. gentleman's own showing it ought not to be acceded to; for the right hon. gentleman asserted that the Bank was an extravagantly overgrown and rich corporation. What necessity then for an enquiry into its situation? As to the security for Bank notes, it was ample. Besides the assets in the hands of the Bank, it should be recollected, that Bank notes were receivable at the Exchequer, and that double the whole amount in circulation was received there yearly.
Mr. Tierney, in explanation, said, that he had not represented the Bank as great and flourishing, and abounding in wealth. He allowed that they had made great profits; but his next motion would shew how he thought they had dissipated those profits. In consequence of the restrictions imposed on their payment in specie, the Bank had certainly made enormous profits; but these they had divided among themselves, and for aught he and the country knew, had left nothing for their creditors.
The motion was put, and negatived without a division.
Mr. Tierneythen moved for an account of all sums divided by the Bank of England, on their capital, from 5th Jan. 1787,
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to 5th Jan. 1812, specifying the sum in each year.
Mr. Manningthought this motion an unnecessary interference with the internal concerns of the Bank. Every one knew what those dividends had been.
Mr. Barham, although he objected to the former motion, supported this, on the ground that all possible information on the state of the Bank should be afforded to the public.
Mr. Grenfellstated, that the bonuses divided among the proprietors of Bank stock, since 1787, amounted to 32½ per cent. on the capital.
Mr. Baringthought the motion unnecessary. It would not give the House any information that was not already in their possession.
Mr. Marryattcontended, that it was never intended by the restrictions on the payment in specie, that the Bank should make the large sum which they had made out of the public distress. He attributed their unwillingness to show the state in which they were, not to any doubt of their solvency, but to their being ashamed of their profits. There was a provision in the charier of the Bank of England which required that a meeting should be called twice a year, at which meeting the profits of the Company should be exhibited. This provision had hitherto not been complied with; no doubt lest the public should be made acquainted with the enormous profits divided by the proprietors.
The motion was then negatived without a division.

PLYMOUTH BREAKWATER.
Mr. Lushingtonbrought up the report of the Committee of Supply. On the motion for agreeing to the resolution for granting 80,000 l. to commence a Breakwater in Plymouth Sound,
Sir Home Pophamsaid:—Mr. Speaker, I did not presume to trespass upon the patience of the House, when it was in a; committee on the subject of Plymouth Breakwater. It was in deference. Sir, to the many senior and much more enlightened officers who are now in your presence; I avail myself, however, of this opportunity to record my sentiments on the subject, I am anxious to do so, as two reports have been industriously circulated, which have no foundation the first, that I intended to resist the grant. On the contrary Sir, I think too much credit cannot be given to the First Lord of the Ad-

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miralty for bringing forward this measure; and I think there is no officer in the British navy who will resist the application of money to give security to the roadsteads of this country. The second report was, that I had a plan of my own to propose. I really. Sir, have no such thing in contemplation: I was called upon by the government of 1805 to give an opinion on the practicability of establishing Breakwaters, and the best mode of doing it. I did so. Sir, but it was on condition that my opinion should not be publicly acted upon, without my going down to Plymouth and examining the Sound thoroughly to enable me to revise that opinion; but I recommended, in the strongest manner, that a committee of experienced naval officers, with an engineer, should be sent there to examine the sets of tides, &c. and a variety of other technicalities with which it is not necessary to trouble the House, as many of its members, both in and out of office, have read that report. Quite satisfied. Sir, that a more able man than Mr. Rennie cannot be found, I am equally satisfied of the great advantage which the service has derived from the works which Mr. Bentham has continued at Portsmouth: and, as civil engineer to the navy, I wonder he was not consulted. I think the country would have been better satisfied, if they could have seen attached to the reports, the name of the present commander-in-chief at Plymouth, the appointment of whom has done so mach credit to the present First Lord of the Admiralty. This gallant officer might have called to his assistance his second in command, another very meritorious officer, and the captain of the St. Salvador, captain Nash, than whom a more zealous officer, or a better practical seaman, does not exist In any service in the known world.—A report, backed by such officers, would have had the greatest weight in the country, and would have rendered it unnecessary to offer a word upon the subject. When I mention committees, I am completely within the practice of the present board: for I had the honour of being attached to a committee, consisting of three flag officers and a captain, to examine a gun carriage; and if this committee, with the exception of myself, had been appointed to examine Plymouth Sound, and report accordingly, the House would have had such an authority to have acted upon, as would have made all discussion unnecessary. This Sir, is a subject on which
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professional men have a great difference of opinion; indeed, Sir, the very men whose reports are upon your table, differ as much as possible. The one says there is ample room within the Breakwater to moor fifty sail of the line, and that they can weigh at any time, and with all winds. Another says thirty-six sail of the line; and a third tells you he agrees in general to the reports, but he would rather sign for thirty sail. The First Lord of the Admiralty last night reduced his opinion to twenty: and I do say that if the work can be accomplished to that extent, it will be a wonderful improvement, and do great honour to the present First Lord. I cannot. Sir, carry my views to this extent: I do not mean to say that in the area described within the Breakwater, thirty-six sail of the line may not be placed in fine weather to a mathematical nicety. The reports tell us, that when a ship is taking up her lee anchor, her gun-room port will be eight fathom from the weather anchor of the ship astern of her: I know that ships may lie closer, but that must be in deep water, where there is no chance of ships striking upon each other's anchor. The first great feeling of responsibility will be running in, and anchoring twenty, or even fifteen sail of the line, in a heavy gale from the south-south west, in the confined space of one mile by a large quarter wide; and if I had the honour of such a charge, I should feel great uneasiness, and that was running into this confined spot under some degree of risk. I am not quite satisfied about the effect of this Breakwater upon Cawsand bay, it may possibly injure it; and Cawsand bay has proved a valuable anchorage, under particular circumstances. The First Lord of the Admiralty alluded to the state of the enemy's ships, that their activity in building was beyond conception, and although they had now but one ship of the line in Brest water, they might soon have thirty-six, the same number which he proposed to place under the Breakwater. If this thirty-six sail of the line should be caught within this Breakwater, in a strong wind from south to S. S. E. the enemy's fleet might sail from Brest to Ireland, and reach it, before (including the time for intelligence) our fleet could well get out of Plymouth Sound. The distance from Plymouth and Brest to Ireland, is nearly the same. In such a situation of things, Sir, the enemy would be invited to invade Ireland, for who is there who will venture to contra-

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dict me, when I assert, that Ireland will be the stepping-stone to the invasion of England, and not England to the invasion of Ireland? Then, Sir, would it not be a wise measure, to apply this vote to a naval establishment in Bantry bay, would it not conciliate the affections of the people, and would it not shew that you were determined to treat them with confidence, and afford them the best protection against the common enemy? Sir, I will only detain the House to say, that although I do not think the Breakwater will by any means answer to the effect of the calculation upon your table: yet the right hon. gentleman has every credit for bringing forward any proposition to improve our road-steads. I am sorry to differ as to the extent of advantage, and in some respects as to the mode of proceeding; but on the great principle of improving our naval establishments, I certainly concur. With respect to what fell from the right hon. gentleman on the subject of Cherbourg, I can only say, that while I had the honour of commanding that blockade, in the absence of a most experienced and gallant officer, captain Malcolm, I saw with astonishment the activity with which the enemy was building his line of battle ships, completing the works about his bason, and the Breakwater which formed his roadstead.
Captain Beresfordthought the Breakwater would not injure Plymouth Sound; and that if it should only hold four or five sail it was worth the expence. The enemy could not get out of Brest with a south wind.
Sir Joseph Yorkespoke in favour of the measure; and hoped that the hon. and gallant officer (sir H. Popham) would not press the question of opposing a committee of naval officers. He should have no hesitation of running into the Breakwater in a gale of wind, for which, in his opinion, his right hon. relation (Mr. Yorke) would long live in the recollection of the navy.
Sir R. Bickertonapproved of the measure.
Mr. Herbert, of Kerry, said, that sir Samuel Bentham had asserted his having seen his plan carried into execution in foreign parts. Had this been enquired into?
Mr. Whitbreadhad the highest respect for Mr. Rennie as a civil engineer; but at the same time he thought any thing coming from sir Samuel Bentham, civil engineer of the navy, was deserving of great consideration some of whose objections to
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Mr. Rennie's plan, owing to some informality were, he understood, never yet examined into. It might be questioned whether the improvement was equal to the expence, which although estimated at l,100,000 l. would in the end probably amount to two millions; and it might also now be doubted from the opinions delivered, whether this work would bring about any relaxation in the blockading system. He was glad, however, that something was likely to be done; nothing being so bad as indecision; yet before going too far it might be advisable to enquire farther into the practicability of the measure.
Sir Charles Poleheld the objection of a fleet getting out of Brest before it was possible to get out of the Breakwater perfectly nugatory. He lamented that the work was not begun in 1806.
Lord Cochraneimputed the supposed necessity for this Breakwater to the usage of making men of war take in their masts, &c. in open roadsteads, instead of going into harbour for that purpose; a practice which occasioned the greatest discontent in the navy, as it prevented the sailors from ever getting on shore. Under the existing circumstances of the country, he thought every expence not absolutely necessary ought to be avoided, but, if he might be permitted to do so, he would move as an amendment to the question before the House, "That towards the construction of this Breakwater, a duty of 50 per cent. be levied on all Sinecures, which the committees of parliament had declared ought to be abolished, and a duty of 20 per cent. on all other sinecures."
The Speakerobserved, that it was not competent to the noble lord to make such an amendment. All that the House could do was, directly to assent to or dissent from the motion for agreeing to the resolution.
Lord Cochranesaid, that the money which, according to his proposition, might be raised from the holders of revenue offices, would be much better employed in dropping stones into Plymouth Sound, than in giving Burgundy, Champagne, and dances to the ladies of London.
Mr. Baringthought the proposed naval arsenal at Northfleet more necessary than the Breakwater in Plymouth Sound.
Mr. Yorkesaid, the Breakwater would in a very few years, by the saving it would occasion, more than repay its expence, He thought that both the arsenal at North-

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fleet and the present work were necessary; and that we had not yet done enough. Mr. Bentham was not, as had been stated, civil engineer of the navy, and had at present sufficient occupation in his own department. The sum wanted at present was merely to enable the necessary preparations to be made; and no pains would be spared to get information with respect to the carrying the plan into execution.
The resolution was then put and agreed to