Commons Sitting of 20 January 1812

KING'S HOUSEHOLD BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer presented the Bill for making provision for the better support and arrangement of his Majesty's Household, and for the care of his Majesty's real and personal property, during the continuance of his indisposition. The Bill was then read the first, and on the motion, that it be read a second time,
Mr. Tierneyobserved, that from an examination of the estimate laid before the House, of the annual charge upon the Civil List revenues, framed in 1804, and the accounts of the disbursements for the seven following years, certain productions appeared to him to be necessary, before he could consent to give his vote for the second reading of this bill. It was impossible to understand from the papers which had been already produced, what arrangement it was necessary to make, or whether the sums which they should grant might exceed or fall short of what the occasion demanded. From these papers it appeared that the expenditure of the Civil List exceeded the revenue by upwards of. 124,000 l. annually; so that it was not fair to state the Civil List at

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979,000 l. per year, when the real sum expended was greater by 124,000 l. Whether this additional expence was really necessary, it was impossible to say, without the production of more documents; for all that could be learned from those already produced, was the actual excess, and the particular classes on which that excess had arisen. But this was not enough to enable the House to act in the manner which they were called on to do, because it did not allow them to see whether the excess was justifiable, or could admit of reduction; and he should wish to have a Committee appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the actual state of the Civil List. This was certainly the first time that an addition had been demanded to the Civil List, without the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject, and without the production of more papers than had been thought fit to be laid before them on the present occasion; but whether the course he recommended was or was not justified by precedent, he was certain that it was at all events the most rational and convenient. In what he was about to move for, he professed he was actuated by no wish to embarrass or retard ministers in carrying this business through the House; but before the second reading of the bill took place, he could wish that the few papers he intended to move for before sitting down, should be some time before the House, that they might come to the discussion with every requisite information. To satisfy the House that these additional papers were necessary materials for the consideration of the present question, it was only necessary to state to them that an estimate of the charges on the Civil List was drawn up in 1804, that from 1804 downwards, the expenditure of each year greatly exceeded the sum of that estimate; and that it was almost impossible that a more mature arrangement could take place than that of the Civil List in 1804. He should proceed therefore to state to the House the principal articles on which he wished to have information. The first was an account of the bills paid each year in the department of the Lord Steward. In the estimate of 1804, 75,000 l. annually had been thought sufficient to meet all these bills; and yet in the very next year, 1805, they would find that they amounted to no less a sum than 129,924 l. He did not say that this sum was too much, but he
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certainly thought that it required explanation. In another year the expenditure in this department amounted to 107,000 l. and in the last year it amounted to 115,424 l. While he did not wish to express any opinion on this subject at present, he thought it was but fair to state that reports had gone abroad of considerable abuses existing in that department, and that these reports had come from a quarter which induced him to view the vast increase that had taken place with great jealousy. He implored the House, therefore, not to proceed farther in this business till they had examined, into the particulars of this expenditure. It was certainly singular enough, that the excess took place at the very moment when Mr. Pitt said that 75,000 l. would be sufficient. He hoped that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would not object to the giving this detailed account.
The next account he wished for was, that of the tradesmens' bills in the department of the Lord Chamberlain. The extraordinary way in which affairs had been conducted in that department, would sufficiently appear when the particulars of this department of the Civil List were laid before the House. He would again implore the House to examine into this subject, to look into Mr. Pitt's estimate and the estimates of all preceding administrations. Mr. Pitt conceived that 65,000 l. would be amply sufficient for. the payment of all the tradesmens' bills in this department on the 5th of July 1804, and yet it appeared that the increase, here was even greater than in that of the Lord Steward; for on the 5th of July 1805, this estimated sum was more than doubled, the bills at that time being to no less an amount than 133,800 l. In the next year the expenditure got up to 136,009 l. in another year it was 124,000 l. and then it fell to 95,000 l. On the face of the documents now before the House, there was nothing to satisfy them respecting the cause of this rise and fall. In' 1809 it rose to 149,618 l. and fell in the following to 118,091 l. and in a subsequent year to 101,669/. In all this there was certainly an appearance of great imprudence. He did not conceive that the Lord Chamberlain was a person who had merely the direction of that department, without being obliged to look into its details, and to see that the expence should arise properly from the articles falling 1806,

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under it. He understood that the sums paid out here were principally for bills connected with furniture, a species of expence which might be increased without end. The House were surely bound to satisfy themselves on so important a subject as this, in order, if the expences were unwarrantable, that they might not occur again, and that, in making a permanent arrangement, they might not be considered as likely so to recur. In any motion which it was possible for him to make on this subject, he should find it difficult so to express himself as to be able to fall upon, precisely what was wanted for the elucidation of the business, without the assistance of the right hon. gent. who, seeing the intended object, would be much better enabled to judge than he could be supposed to do, what would exactly answer the purpose.
With respect to the department of the Master of the Horse, the management of which he understood was conducted by one of the Equerries, he would say nothing at present, as it appeared to him to be most economically managed, and every thing that it ought to be.—The next article on which he could wish for explanation, was one as to which, he was afraid the right hon. gent, would not be prepared to satisfy him, he meant the Special Service and Royal Bounty. In 1804, the estimate for these expences was 10,000 l. The next year the expenditure was 14,000 l.; and the year after it got up to 50,111 l. Now, what the cause of this could be, he was at a loss to guess; and if the right hon. gent, opposite had no objection, he would move for papers illustrative of this circumstance.
The only other article on which he should wish for information, was that of the Extraordinary Disbursements for Foreign Ambassadors, Presents to them, &c. The whole of the ordinary expence of Foreign Ambassadors in 1804, was 112,330 l.; but this branch of expenditure had been continually diminishing since that period. In 1803 it amounted to 59,835 l.; in 1810 to 67,482 l.; and it now stood at 77,064 l. and this reduction was occasioned by the diminished number of Ambassadors, arising from the particular situation of the continent for some time past. But what was certainly singular enough, was, that while the number of Ambassadors was so much reduced, the Extraordinary Disbursements, which in 1804 were estimated at 10,000 l. should
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have risen to 50,111 l. afterwards to 83,813 l. and now actually stood at 53,832 l. How was this to be accounted for? This sum could not certainly be Secret Service money; for there was a large sum voted by parliament every year for that purpose. The presents to Foreign Ministers, which were also estimated at 10,000 l. in 1804, amounted now to 33,750 l. Surely it was necessary this should also be explained.—Again, he would say that all these very extraordinary differences between the estimate and the actual expenditure of the Civil List might be accounted for satisfactorily; but when the statement which he had just made should go out to the world, he was confident that the country would not be satisfied unless every information which it was in the power of the right hon. gentleman to give should accompany it. He should therefore move, "That there be laid before this House, 1. An Account shewing the amount of the charges upon the Civil List-Revenues, so far as relates to the Bills of Tradesmen in the department of the Lord Steward, specifying the different heads of expence under which the same have been paid, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811; distinguishing each year. 2. An Account shewing the amount of charges upon the Civil List Revenues, so far as relates to payments made to Foreign Ministers, under the heads of Extraordinary Disbursements, Presents and Equipage money, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811; distinguishing each year, and the names of the Foreign Ministers to whom the said payments have been made. 3. An Account shewing the amount of charges upon the Civil List Revenues, so far as relates to the bills of Tradesmen in the Department of the Lord Chamberlain, specifying the different heads of expence under which the same have been paid, and also the particular service to which applicable, where the amount has exceeded 500 l.; distinguishing each year, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, as it was his wish that the Bill should be committed on Friday, it was desirable that the second reading might be as near to the going through a Committee as possible; and for that purpose he moved that the second reading should be on Thursday. He had not the smallest objection to communicate to the House whatever

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information might be judged requisite; and adverting to the papers specified by the right hon. gentleman, he could see no objection to the production of them; but he hoped that that right hon. gentleman would agree to raise the sums on which he wished much information in the department under the Lord Chamberlain to 500 l. because he was himself satisfied that the excess had arisen on sums of a much larger description, though if it should be found that this was not sufficient, more detailed information would be afforded. He was not prepared to account for the excess of the subsequent years over the estimate, and particularly of the year immediately succeeding; but he thought that it might partly be accounted for from an impossibility of suddenly reducing, after knowing the determination, a number of expences which had previously exceeded the estimate. This was a sort of justification for the expenditure of the year following the estimate, and accordingly it would be found that year greatly exceeded the subsequent year. The salaries of foreign ministers had been diminished, from the number of missions to which an end had been put; but the extraordinary circumstances attending several of these missions of late years, would sufficiently justify, he trusted, an inquiry into the additional expence on that account.
The papers moved for were ordered, and the second reading of the Bill was fixed for Thursday.

EXPENCES OF THE ASSUMPTION OF RQYAL AUTHORITY BY THE PRINCE REGENT.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
The Clancellor of the Exchequermoved, "That a sum not exceeding 100,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, for making provision for defraying the Expences incurred in consequence of the Assumption of the personal exercise of the Royal Authority, by his royal highness the Prince Regent in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty."
Mr. Tierneysaid, that although he felt it personally unpleasant to make any remark on the present grant, yet the broad duty which he owed, to the public was imperious, and he would discharge it. The Prince Regent had now executed the functions of Regent for twelvemonths, and when all the expences attendant on the assumption of that office had been over,
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the minister came forward with his outfit for the Regency. Every man must feel that the Prince Regent had been at great expences for the purpose alluded to; and it was, he was confident, in the recollection of every one, that the Prince had with that delicacy which was one of the characteristics of his mind, and with a proper feeling for the burthened state of the people, refused to accept a sum of money last year. How, therefore, could the minister now, ask the House to vote this outfit; particularly when he mentioned no distinct appropriation of it—when he rather stated it as a boon or a grant which had no precedent in our history? No such outfit was ever voted by the parliament of England on the assumption of the monarchy; and although he was most heartily disposed to vote any sum which would be appropriated to the meeting of the expences which the Prince Regent had already been at, yet he was anxious to guard against the recognition of such a principle, as that it was always necessary to vote a certain sum of money for the natural assumption of the royal authority. He hoped, that it was not the right hon. gentleman's intention to consider a king or regent of England in the light of an ambassador, whom it was necessary to equip out in a particular way.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that he had intended the words to apply both retrospectively and prospectively, and had no objection to introduce those expressions into his motion. He certainly meant that the sum should cover the expences both of the temporary regency, which his Royal Highness had passed through, and of the permanent regency into which he was about to enter. No dangerous precedent could possibly be afforded, because in the event of the demise of the crown, the Regent would of necessity succeed to the property of the crown, and no parliamentary grant could then be required.
Mr. Tierneyapprehended, that at least his Royal Highness should have been advised to send a message to the House on the subject. He did not think parliament justified in asking his Royal Highness to accept of 100,000 l. unless they officially knew that he required it. He most willingly admitted the delicacy of the Regent conduct during the early part of his regency, in declining to make any addition to the national burthens by the acceptance of an increased revenue, and

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he allowed that his Royal Highness's subsequent expences must have been very considerable. Parliament ought to behave towards the Prince Regent with liberality; but it was to the mode in which the measure was proposed that he objected, and he recommended to the right hon. gentleman to withdraw his motion until Wednesday, in order to word it in a manner more satisfactory to the House; for he confessed that he did not like the words "prospectively and retrospectively."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed, after the word "expences," to introduce the words, "which have been or may be."
Mr. Whitbreadcould not allow this question to pass without making a few observations. However invidious it was to oppose such a grant for his Royal Highness, under the present circumstances, still, he felt it his duly, as a member of parliament, to oppose the vote until such a Message should be sent down to the House as was usual in such cases. The country had last year given great credit to his Royal Highness for the communication which he had caused to be made to the House, of his intention of not laying any additional burthens on the country, for the expences he might be put to in assuming the Regency. For this communication his Royal Highness had most deservedly obtained great credit; but having so received it, he thought that it appeared somewhat extraordinary, that a sum of 100,000 l. should be demanded by the minister for the expences which had been already incurred, as well as those that would be necessary now. He wished to know in what' manner this sum was to be divided, between expences past and expences to come: He wished to know what were the additional sums which had been expended, or whether there had been any increase of visible splendour about his Royal Highness since he assumed the regency. He did not mean to say, however, that the sum was too much to grant; nor had he any means of knowing whether it was sufficient. He thought, however, that it was necessary that the House should be informed in the regular parliamentary way by a message, and not by the mere assertion of a minister, what sum of money was required, and for what purposes.
Mr. Secretary Ryderthought that the hon. gentleman seemed to have forgotten,
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that the circumstances were very-different under which that communication was made. At that time there prevailed a general expectation of his Majesty being likely soon to resume his functions, and, Therefore, his Royal Highness did not Then think it necessary to call for any additional sum to meet the expences of a regency, which it was hoped would not have lasted more than a few months. For this resolution he was deservedly entitled to all the credit which he had received from the country: but when his Majesty's illness had, contrary to all expectation, continued for nearly a year since the period of that communication, his Royal Highness was necessarily obliged to incur great additional expences. The vote therefore which was now proposed, was founded on a state of things which was totally different from that which existed when the communication was made. As to the manner in which the object was to be effected, he thought that it would be much more delicate for parliament to take up the subject themselves, than to require of his Royal Highness to send down a formal message upon it. He thought that it was sufficient foundation to proceed upon, when the necessity of such a vote was stated to the House by those who were the best acquainted with the facts. It must be obvious to every one, that a considerable additional expence must necessarily have been contracted by his Royal Highness, in consequence of assuming the Regency.
Mr. Adammaintained that the Prince Regent might very well last year claim no expence whatever, from the natural expectation that the Regency would soon be at an end; but the House would recollect, that there was a great difference between the situation of his Royal Highness then, and his situation now. Were the situation the same now as it was then, he was confident that his conduct would also be the same; but there were various circumstances which distinguished the one period from the other. It was certainly the most ungracious mode of proceeding possible, to allow his Royal High? ness to seek that, which, though he might very naturally expect, he would also as naturally feel a reluctance to ask; and if the practice of parliament did not stand in the way of a contrary proceeding, he should certainly think it by much, the most becoming and suitable. But he contended that the practice of parliament

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required no such thing as a message. His Royal Highness had now discharged the duties of the Regency for nearly a year, and every person must be supposed to know that during that period his expences must have been considerably greater than what they would have been for his own occasions merely. The first grant, therefore, applied to the expences incurred during that long period. With respect to the second grant, any person might know that though the expenditure would be very large, yet it was impossible to frame any particular estimate of it" Sure he was, however, that it was not too large. On that ground he should conceive that the motion as it was worded ought to pass. But there was another ground for voting this sum, and that was, that had his Royal Highness succeeded to the throne as a sovereign succeeded to it on the demise of his predecessor, he would also have succeeded to the revenues and the rights belonging to the crown. He would have had it in his power to bring under consideration what was arranged at the beginning of the present reign. But now the case was very different indeed. He had not succeeded in consequence of a demise, but was called to supply the place of his royal father, in the unfortunate and distressing situation to which he was reduced. Under these circumstances therefore, he thought it the duty of parliament, to his Royal Highness, to the constitution, and to the country, to come forward in the first instance, and, without any communication from his Royal Highness, to accede to the proposition made by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Hurstexpressed himself perfectly satisfied with the Resolution. The assumption of the office of Regent was, ex necessitate rei, attended with a very considerable expence: every gentleman in the House, he was sure, must be convinced of that fact: it was not, therefore, a bounty, which they were called on to grant, but only a sum voted to pay a just debt.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that neither the speech of his hon. and learned friend, nor the remark just made, had in the least degree convinced him that a Message from the sovereign power was not necessary to enable the House to adopt the resolution proposed. At the time of the first constitution of the Regency, when a message was brought down to parliament, stating that the prince of Wales did not
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wish any expence to be incurred on his account, he had listened to the observations of his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Adam) with much attention, conceiving that they came with a sort of official authority: in the present instance, whatever credit might be due to the statement, he could not consider it in any such light, in as much as his hon. and learned friend was no longer to be deemed the organ of the Prince Regent, since the ministerial servants of his Royal Highness were the proper channel for any official communications to that House. He did not mean to assert that the sum proposed was too much or too little, for no means of judging had been supplied: he should be glad to hear, however, what expences had been gone to, and without proceeding with due regularity, after the assurance of the Regent that no additional charges should be incurred on his account, he conceived that the House would be doing a gross act of injustice to his Royal Highness. His hon. and learned friend had said, that at the time when this assurance was given, it was fully expected that the term would be short during which the Prince would be called upon to fulfil the duties of royalty. It might be so, but he could not discover what difference this fact made in point of principle, and the present vote was prospective as well as retrospective. In his opinion, the remarks that had been made on this subject, to induce the House to swerve from the constitutional one hitherto followed, shewed decisively that a message from the sovereign power was necessary, before the vote now proposed should be adopted.
Mr. Tierneyobserved, that as he had before stated that he should not vote against the Resolution, he would keep his word with the right hon. gentleman; but he lamented that he had so far pledged himself, without due consideration. Not an instance could be found, where the House, without a single document laid before it to shew that any sums had been expended, or a single reason assigned, had come to a determination to grant a hundred pence, much less a hundred thou-sand pounds. It might be true that the Prince Regent had been put to considerable expences, but it ought to be stated to the House in an official form, When lord Nelson, for his glorious victories, was made a peer of the realm, having no fortune, undoubtedly it was the wish of all, that a sum of money should be granted to

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him, to support his dignity: but what was done? The crown sent a Message to parliament, requesting the House to enable it to reward the eminent services performed, by settling a pension of 2,000 l. a year, and the House did accordingly pass a vote for that purpose. One ground stated for making the grant in the present instance was, that it was authorized by an allusion in the Speech of the Lords Commissioners. Where it was to be found he did not know: certainly it was. not in that part of it where the Prince Regent desires the House to "bear in mind the indispensible duty of continuing to preserve for his Majesty the facility of resuming the personal exercise of his royal authority." What reason had been assigned why his Royal Highness should not send a Message to the House, desiring that such a sum should be granted? None: nor could he imagine any cause for hesitation, in taking that most necessary step. Having, however, in a manner promised not to vote against the proposition, he would not divide the Committee upon the question.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he was ready to absolve the right hon. gentleman from any pledge he might suppose himself to have given, however glad he might have been that the vote should have received a support which carried with it so much weight. If the promise had been inadvertently given, and without deliberate consideration, he should not think that he acted with reciprocal liberality, if he rigidly insisted on its performance. In his view of the subject, the Speech delivered at the commencement of the session contained every thing that was necessary to meet the question; and with respect to what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend over the way (Mr. Adam), although it might not be received with the same degree of authority it formerly possessed, surely there could be no reason why his arguments now should not receive that attention which they generally deserved. If there was any thing in what he stated, it was this that it would be becoming in his Royal Highness to send down a Message to the House for a grant of money, not to be applied to reward the public services of another, but to be disposed of for the private purposes of the Prince Regent. What did the Speech of the Lords Commissioners say upon this subject? His Royal Highness is "satisfied that you will
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adopt such measures as; the present melancholy exigency may appear to require." Was net the assumption of the royal authority one of those measures; and if it was, would not the House enable the Prince to execute the duties of Regent? This general opening of the question, he was confident, would be deemed sufficient, without a specific Message from the throne for a sum to discharge debts, which, from general observation, we must know had been incurred. If, then, the House had it in its power, would it not be anxious to spare the Prince the pain of making such a demand on its generosity? The right hon. gentleman who spoke last, had more than hinted at the propriety of estimates of the expences incurred being laid upon the table; but he was sure that there would be found scarcely a member of the House to second such a proposition. The objections that had been urged, were rather of form than substance, and he trusted that the House would think that it consulted what was due to its own feelings, as well as to the feelings and dignity of the Prince, if the Resolutions were now passed, rather than insist upon the strict form of proceeding which had been recommended.
The question was then put, and the Resolution, as amended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was carried without a division.