Commons Sitting of 22 February 1812

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING LORD WELLINGTON.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House to take into consideration his royal highness the Prince Regent's Message of Tuesday last, [see p. 842.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequeraddressed the Chairman to the following effect; Mr. Lushington; I cannot think that it will be necessary for me to trouble the committee with many observations in order to induce them to give their most cordial consent to the Resolution which I shall have the honour to propose, in conformity to the gracious Message of his royal highness the Prince Regent. It is, indeed, impossible that the House of Commons should fail to recollect, or that the nation at large should fail duly to appreciate the various great and distinguished services which have marked the brilliant career of my lord Wellington in the course of the late campaigns in Spain and Portugal. Although differences of opinion may exist with respect to the expediency and policy of the efforts which Great Britain has been, and is now making in the peninsula, although different views may be entertained of the wisdom of their efforts, I am persuaded Sir, that those differences of opinion, and those different views, will form no ground of dissent from the present motion. The question before us is, whether the officer selected in the first instance by his Majesty, and subsequently confirmed by his royal highness the Prince Regent, to direct the military operations in the peninsula, has, or has not conducted himself with such distinguished zeal, and such consummate professional ability, as while it does infinite honour to himself, does infinite honour to the country, whose armies he was appointed to command? Sir, the impression of the House on this subject is evident; and, under such an impression, I feel that it would be a gratuitous trespass on their time, to enter into any detail of those various achievements of the gallant earl, which have on former occasions received the distinct and repeated approbation of parliament. The circumstances under which his royal highness the Prince Regent has, for the last twelve months, exercised the royal authority, have prevented him at an earlier period from adequately marking the high sense which he entertained of the merits of that distinguished
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general. His Royal Highness, however, has availed himself of the first opportunity of conferring on lord Wellington the honours which are so justly his due. It is a singular coincidence, that as the services of the gallant earl were the latest object of reward to the royal authority, which for the last year has been in abeyance, so they are the first object of reward to the illustrious personage who has assumed the unrestricted exercise of that authority. Our own conviction of the merits of lord Wellington is well known. But the committee will observe that Great Britain does not stand single in the opinion which she entertains of his deserts. They have been the uniform theme of the applause of our allies, an applause peculiarly manifested at the close of the last distinguished operation in which lord Wellington was engaged; for when the tidings of that great victory reached the Spanish government, they marked their sense of its value by a signal and honourable stamp of their high approbation. To the merit of this service indeed, the recent dispatches of the enemy themselves afford ample testimony. Those dispatches declare that the occurrence appears incomprehensible. In the first instance, the French general speaks of the great importance of the fortress of Ciudad Rodrigo, and boasts of the preparations which he has made to relieve it, holding out to his master expectations of the most glorious result to the French arms. But when he subsequently learns that this fortress, which he had calculated that it would take nine or ten days to subdue, was reduced in as many minutes, astonishment and dismay take the place of confidence and elation.—Sir, I am convinced that the committee will unanimously agree with me, that we have but one duty to perform on the present occasion, and that is, to adopt the recommendation of his royal highness the Prince Regent, with respect to the proposed grant to the earl of Wellington, for the purpose of enabling him to support the dignity which has been so richly earned, and so promptly conferred. I therefore move, "That it is the opinion of this committee, That the annual sum of 2,000 l. net, be granted to his Majesty out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, to enable his Majesty to grant the said annuity to general the earl of Wellington, in addition to the annuity already granted by parliament to the said earl, subject to the same limitations as con-

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tained in that grant, in consideration of the eminent and signal services performed by him in the course of a long series of distinguished exploits in the campaigns in Spain and Portugal."
Mr. Whitshed Keene.—Sir, I do not rise to oppose the right hon. gentleman's motion as I agree to its principle, but as I am not satisfied with the manner it is proposed to carry it into effect, I beg leave to trouble the committee with the reasons of my disagreement. It is well known that the commanders of armies under all governments possess the means of enriching themselves by various modes, which attend the power of the sword, and we are not without examples of this power having been effectually exercised both in this island and on the continent by British commanders. In the East, where this illustrious soldier began his active military career, where power peculiarly affords those means, he was invested with high command. During a series of successful and glorious achievements which afforded him opportunities of enriching himself according to the usage of India, it is well known he did not yield to such temptations, but made the service of his country and his own fair fame his only objects. The acknowledgments of the people of those countries, and the sentiments of the armies he commanded, bear unequivocal testimony to his conduct. What has been his conduct since he has been employed in Europe? In the first of the four years of our military operations in the peninsula, by the most brilliant achievements he acquired the thanks of this House, and the gratitude of his country, and had he not been disturbed by an incomprehensible jumble of commanders, those achievements would have been as profitable to his country as they were glorious to himself. During the last three campaigns, being freed from such impediments, he has raised the military character of Great Britain to stand foremost in Europe, having by skilful combinations and bold manœuvres, baffled and defeated the most boasted generals and the best armies of France. During this career the same disinterestedness has marked his conduct. The crown of Portugal appointed him its captain general, and placed him in the Regency. The governing power of Spain gave him high rank in their armies; both these countries desired that he would accept the large emoluments attached to those situations. He refused those emoluments from both those
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governments; he disdained to receive any but from his own, when at the same time he drew on his private fortune, to supply the deficiency of his British appointment, to support the expensive hospitality, &c. becoming in his situation. His claims on the justice and liberality of this House do not end here. This House well knows the enormous unavoidable expence inseparable from the Commissariat Department attached to a British army serving abroad. It is also well known, that enormous fortunes have been accumulated (perhaps in some instances fairly) by contractors for its various necessary supplies. It is known that lord Wellington has now under his command the largest British force (taken in all its branches) that ever was employed in one service out of Great Britain. But perhaps it is not known that this illustrious soldier, in addition to his military talents, is a most able commissary general; and while he forms and directs those combinations and movements so glorious to his country and himself, superintends and controls the measures for supplying his army. The same military skill by which he defeats the enemy's tactics in the day of battle, enables him in most cases to foresee their measures, and anticipate the points and the times where supplies will be wanted. His own pure spirit, incessantly exerted, pervades all the branches of this department, and prevents the abuses to which it may be subject. This House has seen by the frequent regulations introduced into it, the difficulties attending the establishment of order and settling accounts of this expenditure. There is every reason to expect that what is incurred under his controul, will be attended with an œconomy hitherto unknown in that line, and at the same time will be so simplified as to require no delay in going through the accounts. The House will be able by comparing the relative expenditures under his command in this army, with those of former armies, to determine the degree of obligation which his country has to him in point of œconomy. It is on these grounds, Mr. Chairman, that I cannot avoid expressing regret at the inadequacy of what the right hon. gentleman proposes. But I, in some degree, console myself, from the persuasion, that if Divine Providence shall preserve a life, of which he is too prodigal, his further services will so force themselves on this House, as to oblige it to compensate the narrowness of the present proposed vote.
Mr. Fremantledeclared, that he had seldom experienced an occasion in which the discharge of his public duty corresponded so completely with the gratification of his private feeling. The conduct of the gallant earl who was the subject of the motion had always been most exemplary; but in the present instance he was persuaded that there would not be a dissenting voice in the committee. The desert of lord Wellington was acknowledged by the whole world. It was quite unnecessary to go into a detail of his manifold services. He had been a soldier from his earliest youth, and his country had ever derived the greatest benefits from his exertions. It was not merely by strict discipline that he was enabled to secure the self-devotion of his soldiers, it was by his attention to their wants, and by his kind and condescending conduct towards them. Invariably persevering and zealous, lord Wellington never allowed personal convenience or advantage to tempt him from the line of his public duty. When to fight was necessary, he bravely fought; but he never permitted any artful or affected demonstration of the enemy to induce him to lead his army into a contest, the consequences of which he could not clearly anticipate. It was useless, however, to dilate on the merits of this distinguished general; and he should therefore content himself with expressing his most cordial concurrence in the motion.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, that although he was the last man who would oppose any proper remuneration to those from whose exertions the country had derived benefit, yet he could not agree to the motion on the grounds upon which it was attempted to be supported. He allowed that he, as well as the House at large, was a very incompetent judge of the merits of a military commander, more especially in the comparative ignorance of the facts under which he necessarily laboured; but from all he did know from the army list, and from the estimates on the table, it appeared to him that lord Wellington had under his command a very large force. Now he had always understood that the merit of a military commander consisted in the being able to accomplish a great object with inadequate means. In his opinion, it was impossible to conceive less done with such ample means than that which lord Wellington had achieved. [Laughter, and cries of hear, hear!] He had no wish to detract from the well-earned reputation
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of any man; but marks of disapprobation were no proof of the fallacy of his statements. Let the committee recollect the force which lord Wellington had commanded. In the first place, 54,000 English troops of the line, and 30,000 regular Portuguese troops in British pay, and said to be equal in discipline, making in the whole 84,000 troops of the line. To these were afterwards added 30,000 more regular Portuguese troops in British pay, making above 110,000 troops of the line. It had also been stated that the Portuguese government maintained 10,000 troops, being in the whole above 120,000 regular soldiers. To these were likewise to be added the Portuguese militia, consisting of 80,000 men, forming the grand aggregate of an army of above 200,000 men. It must also be recollected that the ordinanza of Portugal amounted to 15,000 men. Under such circumstances, and with such a force at his command, he was really at a loss to conceive how lord Wellington could justly be entitled to the praises bestowed upon him by the right hon. gentleman. Did the committee recollect the entrance into Portugal of general Massena with 60,000 men, who advanced 300 miles in an enemy's country, the most difficult and inaccessible in the world, who maintained their ground for such a considerable period of time; whom famine alone compelled to retreat, and who, when they did retreat, although they retired in the face of a superior army, and through an hostile population, lost no single advantage, but maintained themselves unbroken and untouched? Was there much cause of triumph on that occasion? And in the present campaign what had been obtained? Ciudad Rodrigo! He had been informed by military men, that this was a fortress which any army preponderating at the moment must inevitably reduce; that the outworks were of little avail, and that it required a garrison of 4,000 men. The garrison which it contained, however, when attacked by the British, did not exceed 1,500 in number. The place was assaulted by 12,000 troops, and as a proof of its weakness lord Wellington himself said in his dispatches, that the feint, which was not meant actually to operate, had really succeeded in taking the place. (Hear, hear!) Gentlemen cried "Hear, hear!" What he had stated might shew valour in the troops; but it was a strong proof of the weakness of the place. To

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lay such stress on a victory like that, to ring the bells and fire the guns for it, was to shew the country to be in a most fallen and degraded situation. In another quarter the French had achieved considerable advantages. Suchet had conquered Tarragona, Murviedro, Valencia and other important places, and in the course of the campaign, had sent to France 47,000 prisoners, including 2,000 officers, among whom were Blake and some of the most distinguished individuals in the Spanish army. Badajos, notwithstanding the evident anxiety of the British general to relieve it, had fallen. In the attempt to succour that place, 12,000 men had been lost at the battle of Albuera.—(Hear, hear!) He presumed that his statement was an exaggeration.—(Hear, hear!) At any rate lord Wellington had been compelled to retreat. And yet of how much greater importance was Badajoz than Ciudad Rodrigo! The former only 120 miles from Lisbon, and the access to that city easy and unmolested; the latter 320 miles distant from it, and the approach guarded by formidable passes. Badajos, however, had been left to its fate by lord Wellington, and we ought to balance accounts with him. A pension of 2,000 l. had been conferred upon him before the loss of that important place, but it had not been withdrawn since the loss. The joy manifested on the reduction of Ciudad Rodrigo, was for the purpose of public delusion; but even had that fortress been of much greater importance, he thought few would contend that its reduction would materially influence the final issue of the war in Spain. In the mean while if the people of England were to pay so dearly for such advantages, as they were termed, the sooner that war was ever the better. He was decidedly hostile to the war, as a cheat upon the country, professing as it did to be for other objects, while it really went to support bigotry and despotism. There was one fact which, in his opinion, was decisive with respect to the probable termination of the contest. It was notorious, that wherever the English had power in Spain, the Inquisition was established; wherever the French had power, that detestable institution existed no longer. Was that the kind of liberty which Englishmen were called upon to maintain with their blood and treasure? He had already described what in his opinion would be sufficient grounds for rejecting the motion; but his
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strongest and most insuperable objection remained behind—the state of the people of England. Driven to desperation by the oppressiveness of the taxes, and the general stagnation of trade, was this a season for loading them with additional burdens? In his opinion it would be most indefensible to grant such a sum from the public revenue, at a moment when the situation of the empire had forced itself on the consideration of parliament; and when parliament had been able to devise no better means of counteracting the effects of hunger and despair, than by increasing the number of capital punishments. The people called for relief, and parliament had given them a halter. Far better would the money which was now moved for be applied in the alleviation of those distresses; and he had hoped that, before parliament had consented to hang men for offences prompted by necessity, it would have at least inquired into the mode of preventing a recurrence of such events. In the present state of the country, therefore, he could by no means agree to the motion; but if the reverse of this melancholy picture were true he should still object to it. If the hope which existed with respect to the issue of the contest in the peninsula were as flattering, as in his opinion the despondency was just—if the achievements dwelt upon with such emphasis had been as great as in his opinion they were unimportant—if the state of the country was as flourishing as it was depressed, and, in his opinion, almost hopeless—still he should oppose the motion, while government possessed other funds from which the grant might with more propriety be derived—funds from which pensions and allowances were issued unfit to meet the public eye. At least, until those funds were expended, and not even then, would he consent, for such a purpose, to draw upon the already exhausted pockets of the people. The object of the grant was to confer additional splendour on lord Wellington. If this splendour were transparent as well as brilliant, if the situation of the country could be seen through it, what a mass of human misery would it disclose!
Mr. Canningdeclared, that had he anticipated any possible difference of opinion on the motion before the committee, it would have been on the amount of the grant, which, in compliance with the gracious message of the Prince Regent, it

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was proposed to make to the noble and gallant earl who was the just object of his Royal Highness's favour and recommendation. In this view of the subject, had the suggestion of an hon. gentleman (Mr. Whitshed Keene) to increase the grant, been reduced to a formal proposition, he should certainly have voted for it, had he not been withheld by the wish that such a question should pass the House with unanimity. But really for the species of dissent which the hon. baronet had adopted, he confessed that he was wholly unprepared. He did not pretend any more than the hon. baronet to be capable of judging with the skill of a tactician the conduct of military men and military measures; but it was impossible for any man, however ignorant of military affairs, to look at what had been, and what was—to consider the former and the present state of the peninsula—to recollect the existing feelings of the country, and those feelings when that eminent and distinguished commander, lord Wellington, was appointed to direct the energies of the British army—without paying him that homage of applause which his unrivalled talents and unwearied exertions so loudly demanded. Little would the observations of the hon. baronet avail in persuading Englishmen not to reward one who had contributed so essentially to the advantage and to the honour of the empire.—The hon. baronet had introduced into his speech several topics, on which, although he (Mr. C.) owned that they were but remotely connected with the question, the House would perhaps permit him to touch. He would begin with the allusion of the hon. baronet to the distresses of the manufacturers. "Good God!" exclaimed Mr. Canning, "let the stale of commerce and manufactures be what they may, and no man laments the depression which they suffer more than myself, is this a period when Englishmen are to be advised—not to purchase military glory, for that is already our own—but to abstain from expressing gratitude for such services as lord Wellington has performed, because, forsooth! there is a class of the community whose distresses we pity—whose distresses we would most willingly relieve—but whose distresses, I believe from my soul, would be infinitely aggravated, if, by listening to the suggestions of the hon. baronet we were to consent to degrade the national character,"—The hon. baronet had next contended,
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that if this grant were made at all, it ought to be made out of those funds which, according to him, government had abused. Was it so? Were these funds proper subjects of the jealousy and suspicion of parliament? Were they lavished on persons without merit or pretensions? If so, he, for one, would not agree that out of those funds such a man as lord Wellington should be rewarded: he, for one, would not agree that the baseness of the purpose to which (according to the hon. baronet) they had hitherto been applied, should be ennobled by such a dignified appropriation of them.—The next subject on which the hon. baronet had indulged the House with his opinion, was the merit of Suchet. The hon. baronet, after having (let it be observed) disclaimed any military skill or knowledge, had placed Suchet in a much higher rank as a general than lord Wellington; and had blazoned out, with great apparent satisfaction, deeds, which, as he said, had extorted the applause and admiration of mankind. In answer to all this, it would be sufficient for him to observe, that Suchet's military skill was not the subject of the present motion. As he was not yet aware that it was the intention of the hon. baronet to move an amendment to omit the name of Wellington, and insert that of Suchet, he would abstain from further observation on the subject; assuring the hon. baronet, however, that whenever he chose to bring forward such a proposition, he was prepared to meet him; and disclaiming all ungenerous solicitude to diminish the deserved reputation even of an enemy.—Generally, however, the hon. baronet characterised the exertions of the noble and gallant earl, as unworthy of the rewards which a grateful country was anxious to bestow upon him; and he particularly described the immediate achievement in which the present question originated, as unimportant and unavailing. He (Mr. Canning) looked upon that great man in a very different light. He considered him as a pre-eminently able and successful commander. Let the committee recollect that lord Wellington was sent out to save Portugal, at a moment when Portugal was in extreme danger, and that at the present moment there was no question with respect to her safety. Let the committee recollect, that when lord Wellington was sent out to endeavour to save Portugal, he was empowered

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after that first service to extend his exertions to Spain, then in a state approaching to desperation, and that after having performed that first service in Portugal, the noble and gallant lord did extend, and successfully extend, his operations to Spain. To the one country he had given salvation—to the other hope. When such homage had been paid to this distinguished individual by the countries which he had so essentially assisted, was it becoming in his own country to doubt his desert? For his part, he could not persuade himself that there was a second man in the House of Commons, who, when he saw that the first act of those prerogatives which had lain dormant so long, (how properly he would not now argue) was to mark with distinguished honour the individual whom, by a singular and illustrious coincidence, it was the last act of those prerogatives to mark with distinguished honour, would hesitate to hail with joy the opportunity afforded him of sharing in that general sentiment of applause and gratitude which pervaded the whole community. The hon. baronet grudged the noble and gallant earl the paltry sum of 2,000 l. per annum. Far different was the conduct of the countries who had the most immediate means of ascertaining his merits. In addition to the title of Conde de Vimiera granted him in Portugal, was a revenue of 5,000 l. a year. As captain-general of Spain, lord Wellington had a salary offered to him of 5,000 I. a year; and as marshal of Portugal, 7,000 l. a year. These sums, amounting to 17,000 l. a year, were granted for services by the foreign countries in which those services had been performed. It was proposed to give him 2,000 l. a year, in his own country, and the hon. baronet lifted up his hands and eyes at such a gross violation of public economy! These rewards, however, offered by foreign gratitude, were declined by the distinguished person on whom they were bestowed. "No," said that truly noble lord, "in the present situation of Spain and Portugal I will not receive these rewards. I have only done my duty to my country; and to my country alone I will look for recompense." (Hear, hear!) The hon. baronet, it seemed, knew the interests of Spain and Portugal better than those countries did themselves. The hon. baronet contended that the one had purchased her salvation, and the other her hopes, at too dear a rate: he was apprehensive
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that our allies were running riot with joy, and was solicitous to correct their exuberant feeling, and to shew them that they had not the just grounds for exultation of which they fondly imagined themselves to be possessed, by endeavouring to persuade the economical parliament of Great Britain—the legislators of this mighty empire—that the services of lord Wellington were not worth 2,000 l. a year! The hon. baronet had taken an opportunity, not perfectly in order, of going into the policy of the war in the peninsula. With this lord Wellington had nothing to do. The crown and the parliament had sanctioned the system; and it was only for him to execute their orders in the most skilful and advantageous manner. From the vote of this night no fair inference could be drawn either in approval or disapproval of the war: the two subjects were entirely separate and unconnected. But, guarding himself from being supposed to ground the vote which he should give on that consideration, he might, perhaps, be permitted to say, that the last achievement of the noble and gallant earl, whatever might be its military merit, would have a moral effect, which, at the present critical moment, must operate most powerfully throughout the peninsula, by preventing those dazzling consequences which the glories of a rival general might otherwise occasion. It was an event happy and auspicious, and he was persuaded that it would be difficult to find its parallel in military history, out-running as it did, not more the sober expectations of those who were friends to its successful termination, than the fears of a provident enemy. With respect to the cause of Spain, of that cause he did by no means despair. On the contrary, he thought there were some recent circumstances, and more particularly the renovation and reinvigoration of the Spanish government, which held out a brighter hope than any which could hitherto have been cherished, which called upon the British government not to contract, but to extend their operations, and which not merely justified them for the exertions which they had hitherto made, but reflected on their efforts the highest commendation. (Hear, hear!) But this matter was foreign to the question, and the only excuse he could make for having touched upon it was, that he was not answerable for its introduction.—He repeated his wish, that

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the sum to be granted to the noble and gallant earl was larger. It was far from being adequate to the extent of his services, more especially when it was considered how much he had had in his power, and how much he had rejected; but being anxious to avoid any thing like dissent on such a question, he would not press the adoption of a larger sum. He was sure, however, that the committee would cheerfully and unanimously join with his royal highness the Prince Regent in the noblest exercise of the regal prerogatives, by evincing the gratitude of the country to a distinguished individual who had rendered himself an honour to the present age, and an example to posterity.
Sir F. Burdett,in explanation, complained that the right hon. gentleman had chosen entirely to misrepresent him. The right hon. gentleman first disclaimed all knowledge of military tactics, but immediately afterwards,
"Mark the humility of Shepherd Norval!"
he pronounced a decided opinion on the conduct of the war in the peninsula. As for himself he had only contrasted as matters of fact the exploits of lord Wellington, with what had been done by the French general, who in the course of one campaign had sent 47,000 prisoners to France, and had taken Tarragona, Saguntum, and Valencia: and even though Suchet was the enemy of this country, he must be allowed to admire the great military talents which he had displayed. During the same period, we had little else to set off against such signal successes but the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo, a town that might be taken three or four times in the course of a campaign, and produce very little effect on the fate of the war. The right hon. gentleman had totally misrepresented him, when he thought fit to hold him up as a blazoner of the merit of the French general, and the depressor of that of the English one; and the attempt of the right hon. gentleman to place him in such a situation was completely unjustifiable. The right hon. gentleman seemed, however, to scout the idea of taking this grant to lord Wellington from those sources of revenue that were at the immediate disposal of the crown. He seemed to consider these sources as disgraceful, and that it would be infamous to apply them when real merit was to be rewarded. This being the right hon. gentleman's reasoning, he trusted he should have his vote for the abolition of these
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sources of influence, when the subject of sinecure offices was brought under the consideration of the House.
Mr. Canningreplied, that the hon. baronet had mistaken the nature of his reasoning on the subject of the pecuniary grants which it was in the power of the crown to bestow. The hon. baronet had been in the habit of calling such grants disgraceful to the receiver; and yet had proposed that the present annuity to lord Wellington should come from revenue immediately at the disposal of the crown; and when he used the term "disgraceful," as applicable to them, it was only to shew that the hon. baronet was prepared to reward lord Wellington from a source which he, the hon. baronet, thought disgraceful. On the subject of sinecures, he had delivered his opinion on a former occasion, and would now state it to be simply this; that the crown should have at its disposal the means of rewarding merit, but that it would be better if the funds for that purpose were not of the nature of sinecure offices, on which it was natural for the country to throw considerable obloquy. The hon. baronet complained, that he had been misrepresented as the blazoner of Suchet; and that he did not mean to contrast that general with lord Wellington. In reply to this, he would say that he had carefully avoided misrepresentation. "Comparisons were odious," but since the hon. baronet had disclaimed the idea of contrasting the British with the French commander, he would content himself with observing, that though such an effect was doubtlessly not meant, yet certainly what had fallen from the hon. baronet tended, as much as anything that ever fell from the hon. baronet could tend to do any thing, to lower lord Wellington in public estimation. He had seen several military men of high character, who had witnessed the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo, and who concurred in describing the exploit in the most glowing language, and in considering it as the most brilliant achievement of the war.
Earl Templetook that opportunity of declaring his hearty assent to the present motion. He had hoped from the manner in which the subject had been introduced by the right hon. gentleman, that while the members of the House were unfortunately divided on so many points, at least they might rest on this with unanimity. He would not enter at all into the policy of the war in Spain, for the House had now only to determine whether lord Welling-

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ton had deserved well of his country; and as to the argument against the vote drawn from the distressed state of our manufacturers, he conceived, that if allowed at all to operate, it would only produce a still further depression of the spirits of the nation. As to the importance of the recapture of Ciudad Rodrigo, he would refer to the opinion manifested of it by lord Wellington's opponent. That officer said, it had been so fortified, that the outwork" alone might have stood a ten days' siege and he pronounced its rapid reduction an incomprehensible event. This was a sufficient answer to what had fallen from the hon. baronet on this subject; and he must say, that if two separate sums had been proposed to the House, he should have voted for the larger.
Sir C. Burrellwould not have arisen, but for the observations of the hon. baronet; at the same time he was aware that those observations had been most ably and successfully answered by the right hon. gentleman. The hon. baronet had stated the comparative merits of Suchet and of the earl of Wellington; that comparison was not to be endured. What had been the conduct of Suchet? At Tarragona there were between 7 and 800 men, women and children wantonly put to the sword by his orders. (Hear, hear!) What had been the conduct of the earl of Wellington in the late glorious service? Not a single life was lost in the city, with the exception of those on the ramparts. He had not dragged forth the defenceless to be inhumanly butchered and murdered. He had spared their lives after the conquest, and 1,700 prisoners were marched out of the place. The comparison of the merits of the two commanders was so strikingly erroneous, that he could not avoid the expression of his feeling, in common with other gentlemen so diametrically opposite to those of the hon. baronet, and to give his testimony in favour of the noble earl. He thought that he should ill deserve the support of his constituents in Sussex, if he went down among them without having marked the sense which he entertained of principles such as had just been avowed by the honourable baronet.
The motion was then put and agreed to, with the single negative of sir F. Burdett.

MONUMENT TO THE MEMORY OF GENERAL CRAUFURD.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that after the discussion
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which had just taken place, when the House was animated with those feelings which the eminent services of the noble earl had aroused, it would be a pleasing, though melancholy task to do justice to the character of major-general Robert Craufurd, who, at the head of the storming party which he most gallantly led to the attack of Ciudad Rodrigo, received a severe wound, which ultimately deprived him of life, and left the country to lament the loss of a most able, skilful, and gallant officer. The only means of recognizing the merit of his services, would be by the erection of a monument to his memory, and therefore moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that a Monument be erected in the cathedral church of St. Paul, London, to the memory of major-general Robert Craufurd, who died in consequence of a wound he received on the 19th day of January 1812, while he was gloriously leading on the light division to the storm of Ciudad Rodrigo, by which that fortress was wrested from the possession of the enemy; and to assure his Royal Highness that this House will make good the expense attending the same."
Lord Castlereaghregretted his absence during the discussion on the late vote, which precluded him from adding his tribute of applause to the character of the earl of Wellington—an applause which, with the exception of the hon. baronet, and, perhaps, of a very few persons out of doors, would be found general. The character of the lamented major-general Robert Craufurd rested on his own merits, and was but to be appreciated by the testimonies of the gallant army in which he bore command; that army, on his return from abroad, had recorded his merits, by an involuntary burst of applause, when he first appeared on parade. The noble lord could not avoid partaking of the feelings which his brother officers evinced when recollecting his merits; his character had been observed by another officer nearly allied to the noble lord. After he had received his death wound, to the moment of his death, he was at the foot of that breach which had been effected by his determined gallantry: the testimony and admiration of his conduct which the illustrious army had shewn would serve as a remembrance of his departed worth.
The motion was then agreed to, nem. con.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Yorkerose to lay before the committee the Estimates for the service of the Navy during the present year. The principal feature of difference, he observed, would be found in a reduction of about 500,000 l. below the estimates of the last year and of the year before the last. He did not feel it incumbent on him to go into much detail on the subject, but should be extremely willing to answer any questions or communicate any information that might be deemed desirable. The grant for which he should then move would fall short of the vote of last year in another sum of 80,000 l. appropriated to the expences of the new Breakwater in Plymouth Sound. As this subject was soon to be taken into consideration, he thought it better to defer moving for that sum at present. The right hon. gentleman then gave a short history of the reductions effected in the navy debt during the two last years. From these savings, and partly owing to the liberal provision made last year by parliament, be felt himself justified in concluding from the state of part of the naval expenditure which was called Wear and Tear, the service would require a sum less than that of last year by 514,000 l. There was only one additional point to which he wished to call the attention of the House, and that was, the propriety of making some further provision for the chaplains in the navy. From various causes the original fund had become quite inadequate to the due support and maintenance of this class of persons. There were now in the whole service but thirty-nine chaplains, and he was persuaded the House would coincide with him, that religious advice and consolation were not less requisite to our naval forces than to other men. The schoolmasters' fund had become equally inadequate; and it was therefore his intention to propose 30,000 l. for the purpose of making a more suitable provision. This plan was to unite the two employments, and to give 265 l. per annum to each individual fulfilling the duties of both, which, with the ether incidental advantages, might perhaps be deemed a sufficient remuneration. After serving ten years in what was called a sea-going ship, they should be entitled to a pay of 5s. per day, and to retain it
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until they should enjoy church preferment equal to 400 l. per annum. He should trouble the House no further at present, but move, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that a sum, not exceeding 1,038,514 l. 3s. 2d. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the salaries and contingent expences of the admiralty, navy pay, navy and victualling-offices and dock-yards, also of the officers of the out-ports and foreign yards, the wages and victuals to officers and ship-keepers of vessels in ordinary, the expenses of harbour mooring, and rigging, the ordinary repairs of ships and buildings in the dockyards, and bounty to chaplains, for the year 1812."
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that he did not rise to give any opposition to the motion, because he considered the estimates quite unexceptionable; he wished merely to allude to some petitions which he had thought it his duty some time since to lay before the House, and which came from the working-people in several of his Majesty's dockyards. They chiefly complained of the hardship of being charged with the Income tax; and although he himself had no opinion one way or the other of the justice of so charging them, yet he hoped that government would take their case into consideration.
Mr. Yorkeassured the hon. gentleman, that he was quite misinformed with respect to the situation of the shipwrights in his Majesty's dock-yards: they complained without reason, and government could not help men who chose to be perverse. He hoped, however, that that good sense which was the characteristic of Englishmen, would teach those people to be contented under the circumstances of their station in life. What reason had they more than any other of his Majesty's subjects to be exempted from the Income-tax?
Mr. Calcraftwas obliged to the right hon. gentleman for his explanation, which he would communicate to the petitioners, who were men of sense, not at all inclined to be perverse.
Mr. Grenfellobserved, that in the estimates he saw no statement of the expence of the establishment formed some years ago in Portsmouth yard, for melting and re-manufacturing copper sheathing. In any observations he might make upon the subject, he did not mean to impute any blame whatever either to the Admiralty or the Navy board; but having been in the dock-yard at Portsmouth last summer, he had inspected the

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copper sheathing made there, and did not hesitate to say, that it was of a quality that would have caused its rejection by any private ship builders in the kingdom; he had also reason to believe that this inferior article cost the public much more than good copper could have been obtained from the private manufactories of the kingdom.
Mr. Yorkesaid, the copper which the hon. gentleman had seen, was copper taken off the bottoms of ships which had been sheathed with contract copper.
Mr. Grenfellreplied, that the right hon. gentleman had misunderstood him, for that the copper which he had seen at Portsmouth was new copper made at the Portsmouth mill.—He did not consider the House of Commons a proper place to investigate the comparative merits, either in point of quality or price of copper, or any other article. But if the right hon. gentleman would order an investigation to be made into the subject at the Admiralty, and would furnish him with such accounts as he would point out as necessary for the subject, he was confident that the right hon. gentleman would be convinced that the copper sheathing furnished by the Portsmouth mill was worse in quality, and higher in price, than the article could be bought at from private manufacturers; and if so convinced, he was confident that no person would be more anxious than the right hon. gentleman himself to correct the abuse complained of.
Admiral Markhamconceived that the only objection to the Portsmouth copper was, that it was put into the rollers before it was cleansed. With respect to the proposed arrangement respecting the chaplains, he wished to see the duty of the schoolmaster united to that of the chaplain. The hon. admiral then alluded to the construction of a new ship called the Tremendous, and trusted there were not many more to be built upon the same construction, as he understood the timbers were rotten.
Mr. Yorkereplied, that the report on that ship Would, he believed, convince the House that the Tremendous was not rotten; the only doubt was as to her decks. There was, he could assure the hon. admiral, only one more ship to be built on that principle.
Admiral Harveyapproved of the proposed amelioration of the situation of the chaplains, and the combining with it the instruction of the youth of the navy. It
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was well known that navy officers went to sea at such an early period of life, that they were nearly precluded from the advantage of previous education.
Mr. Johnstoneobserved, that at the time of the battle of Trafalgar we had only 125,000 seamen; that since that period our naval success had been constant and progressive, and yet we now thought proper to keep up a naval force of 145,000. Sir Francis D'Ivernois was well known to be no friend to the French government; but he had thought proper to praise the distinct mode in which the French public accounts were kept. From these accounts it appeared that the French naval expenditure had been gradually diminishing since 1803. He merely made these observations, because there was a sort of feeling of partiality for the navy throughout the country, which was very apt to make us forget that a great part of that money which was expended on it might, perhaps, be much more profitably employed in carrying on the contest on the continent.
Mr. Yorkebelieved the hon. gentleman to be misinformed with respect to the state of The French navy. The hon. gentleman had referred, in proof of this, to the French public accounts. He was himself sufficiently acquainted with the French accounts, to know that it was extremely difficult to obtain from them a satisfactory idea of the amount of any branch of public expenditure. But he could tell the hon. gentleman, that the French had been lately labouring inconceivably to augment their navy; that every month added considerably to it; that at present there were not fewer than twenty-five sail of the line in the Scheldt, and thirty-five ships of the line in the different ports of Holland. At Toulon, Venice, and Genoa they were also building ships to a considerable extent; and he believed their naval force was, upon the whole, little short in the Mediterranean of what it was in the North Sea. If the French were exerting themselves to such an extent, surely we ought to be sufficiently prepared to meet them at all points; if once the naval force was to be lowered, and an exigency arose, it would be difficult to increase it. We ought to be fully pre pared to meet them in all parts of the world. An inferior navy would be a great detriment to this country.
Lord Cochranehoped, that, as a deviation from mere detail was allowed when

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the Army Estimates were in a committee, it would not be entirely out of course to offer a few general remarks while the supply of the Navy was before the House, not with a view to oppose the supply for the ordinary establishment of the navy, but as to the proper application of the enormous sums granted for that service generally, to which nothing could in his opinion, contribute more than that the Board of Admiralty should not be considered as a mere appendage to the minister of the day, and be displaced by every agitation of the political system—thus misapplication of means was rendered perpetual; for, just as the members acquired some knowledge of their complicated duties and of the powers they ought to direct against the enemy, then they were displaced to make room for others of no experience. The observations which he had to address to the chairman, related chiefly to the means of annoying the enemy which the government possessed in a right disposal of the naval force of the country, which at present was totally useless except for the purpose of passive blockades. Had 5,000 men with attendant naval transports been kept in readiness in such a central situation as Minorca, for instance, it would have been impossible for the French to have made any progress on the eastern side of the peninsula; for no sooner should the enemy have laid siege to Tarragona, Valencia, Alicant, or any other place, than their affairs might have been reversed at the other extremity. Rosas, for instance, was within twelve hours sail of Minorca and about eighteen from Alicant, whereas on the other hand it was a twenty-five days march at least from Alicant to Rosas. Comparing the respective populations of Britain and France, it was impossible to think of carrying on an equal warfare in the peninsula. A greater number of men than all the British who were at present there, must perish before it could be possible to drive out the French. The desultory nature of naval warfare was, in his opinion, the best calculated for that purpose, and for this we had the highest authorities in ancient and modern times. If the French, with a contemptible flotilla, could keep this country in alarm, what was our gigantic navy not capable of doing? The whole of France lay at the mercy of the British ministry. Had the enemy a naval superiority and only 10,000 disposable troops,
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on what part of the shores of England could people repose in tranquillity? The war as at present conducted could not possibly have a successful termination. It was a great misfortune that the House of Commons listened to nothing which was beyond the sphere of their own knowledge; and when any professional man, like himself, rose up to give information, party was immediately thrown in his teeth; factious motives were instantly imputed, however pure his wishes for the good of his country. He put it to the committee, whether the whole force of this country was not on the alert, and almost concentrated on the coasts of Kent and Sussex, when an invasion was threatened by a contemptible flotilla of the enemy; and if so, what might not be done, if the gigantic naval power of England was to threaten the enemy's shores? It was his sincere opinion, that the whole coast of France was completely at the mercy of his Majesty's ministers. The noble lord next adverted to the coasting trade carried on by France, and which it was in our power to destroy. That trade existed to an extent almost incredible. It was in our power to dismantle their batteries,—to blow up their towers,—and, above all, to destroy that chain of signal-posts, by which a telegraphic communication was kept up from Flushing to Bayonne, and from the south-east point of Spain to Venice. Each of those signal posts could be successfully attacked by ten men, as except in a few situations they were exposed, and seldom had above two or three maimed soldiers to conduct them. He had no interest whatever in forcing those observations on the attention of the committee, and he hoped the right' hon. gentleman would not think them altogether unworthy of his consideration. He should not, he said, attempt at that time to say more; but he trusted that members who were far more capable to do justice to the subject than he could pretend to be, would turn it in their minds, and bring the subject forward, or that his Majesty's ministers would investigate the truth and act accordingly. In either case he was certain attention to the hints he had thus thrown out could not fail of being attended with the most beneficial results to the country. He did not think ministers, in not having attended to the subject, were so much to blame as the House, for they were, or ought to be, the guardians of the public purse; but he was

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sorry to say the practice of the House was to vote estimates to a very great amount without at all troubling themselves to enquire how those estimates were applied. Besides the signal posts he had mentioned, there were placed along the whole coast of Spain many small parties of soldiers in churches, convents, and other buildings, for the purpose of keeping the people of the maritime towns in awe, and passing along supplies to the armies, which supplies it was in our power to intercept, as the only practicable military road was within a pistol shot of the margin of the sea. The smallest assistance would encourage the people to rise upon them. But without such assistance they were afraid to do so, knowing that the French would burn their houses, violate their wives, and murder themselves. This he had seen them do. During all the time he was off Catalonia, the French had barely sufficient force to defend themselves against the natives; and in every enterprise which they undertook they were foiled. It was notorious, however, to all the world, that the attention of ministers was always engaged exclusively on one or two objects, and that they never took an extended view of things. If our commander on that coast had had discretionary powers to supply Figueras, which was the key of Catalonia, with provisions, it could not have been taken by force, for it was impregnable. If government would only act in a proper way, it was impossible that Buonaparte could go on a twelvemonth longer. The noble lord referred to the American war: had ministers during that war, instead of marching large armies through the country, only transported 10,000 men from one place to another, they would soon have laid waste the whole sea coast, and the country must have submitted. He wished the House to reflect on what he had already stated, respecting the reform of the Admiralty court laws; for if they would appropriate one million a year which was nearly the double of what was actually derived from the practices he wished to see abolished, there would be a saving of more than four millions a year to the country on the naval establishment, and the duty would be better performed.
Mr. Hutchinsondeprecated the species of warfare recommended by the noble lord, which he thought would not be productive of the effects he expected. He then adverted to the statement made by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Yorke)
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relative to the appointment of Chaplains and School-masters; and had no hesitation in saying that no qualified person would offer for the latter situation, on account of the smallness of the present salary. Very few ships were provided with schoolmasters, and in those that had them, they were paid by the captain and the young gentlemen. He thought, therefore, that there was no subject more worthy of attention, and he was happy to see that the right hon. gentleman had considered it in that light. The right hon. gentleman had stated the number of chaplains at 39, but he hoped the right hon. gentleman did not mean that that number was sufficient for the navy; and he also hoped that if they undertook the office of schoolmaster, that they might be found able to instruct in the practical parts of navigation, which was so essentially necessary: but he could not help entertaining apprehensions that some difficulty might occur in finding persons so qualified. The hon. gentleman then adverted to the situation of the marine corps, and expressed his regret, that the right hon. gent. had not made any mention of that highly meritorious corps, when he proposed a measure for the relief of the chaplains of the navy. The hon. gentleman said he had stated, on a former occasion, that the pay of the marines' might be increased, without creating any additional expence, by not filling up certain vacancies, which would create a saving equal to the purposes required. He would only add, as an in stance of the unequal footing on which the marine corps were placed, that the senior commandant was not on a footing with the field officers of the same rank in the army, instead of being entitled to look forward to the rank of a general, which, in justice, he ought to be. The marine corps was also deprived of the proportion of field officers; and he should like to know why the right hon. gentleman was not disposed to advise the ministry, or to recommend to the Prince Regent a more equal management. He was not speaking his own sentiments merely on the subject, but those of the whole body of the marines; and he defied the right hon. gentleman to say, with the Memorial from that corps on the table before him, that he was making any statement on behalf of any individual, or from any private view of his own, distinct from the sense and feeling of the entire of that meritorious body of men, on whose behalf he was

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speaking. Under those circumstances, he hoped the right hon. gentleman would direct his attention to the situation of this excellent corps.
Lord Cochrane, in explanation, defended the system which he had recommended, as peculiarly calculated to injure the enemy's coasting trade, which was the great nursery of his seamen.
Admiral Markhamwished to know in what branch of the service the saving had been made?
Mr. Yorkesaid, that the saving had occurred on the wear and tear, and the state of the navy debt proved the fact, as it was 900,000 l. less than it had been last year.
Mr. Tierneyinquired, whether the saving was an incidental one, or one which proceeded from an economical arrangement? In the latter case it might be permanent; but if the saving proceeded from any other source, he feared that the estimate of next year would more than counterbalance it.
Mr. Yorkereplied, that it proceeded from the latter, and the amount would be proved by the decrease of the navy debt. It would be remembered that the House, last year, made a very liberal vote for the wear and tear estimates. On experience the whole was found not to be necessary, and it was applied in a different direction.
The Resolution was then agreed to, as were also the other usual annual Resolutions relating to the Navy.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord Palmerston, in rising to submit to the House those details which it was his duty to lay before them, wished to state them as succinctly as possible, reserving to himself the right of speaking on any subject which might appear to require a more ample explanation than he might give in the first instance. The expences might be divided into two heads: 1st, those which, like regimental charges, grew on fixed establishments; 2nd, those which, like recruiting charges, were contingent. In the former, every care had been taken to compress them within as narrow a compass as possible; in the latter, the actual expenditure of the last year had been taken as the basis of the estimate for the present.—He would first take the estimate of the Land Forces, which of course was divided into many smaller heads. In this estimate, a considerable increase of
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expence would be found, and a considerable addition in men, the increase in the expence being for the increase in the numbers. In the first instance, he had to notice an addition of ten men to the Household regiments, and a consequent increase of expence of 1,700 l. This increase arose from the appointments of Serjeant School-masters. For some years the schools for the instruction of soldiers' children had been supported by no established fund, but by the zeal, intelligence, and liberality of the officers, and by private contributions. The necessity of placing such schools on a regular and permanent establishment, had been strongly felt by the commander in chief, whose attention to the welfare of the army was too well known in that House to require any comment from him. In consequence of this, a school had been established in every battalion in the service, and this led to an expence of 20,000 l. Out of this the charges for the pay of the Serjeant School-masters, for books and contingencies, were met, and he thought that this expence would neither be deemed useless nor lavish, when the benefit thence derived to the country was considered, and the advantages it afforded to the army.—Another increase of expence arose from an addition of twenty men, which had two years ago been taken from each troop of cavalry. These troops, it was at that time thought, might be dismounted without detriment to the service, but in consequence of the nature of the operations in which we had since been engaged in the peninsula; from the applications made by lord Wellington for cavalry, in order the more effectually to meet the force opposed to him by the enemy, it had been found necessary to remount them. The committee were aware of the difficulty of keeping horses on a distant service, and of the various circumstances which rendered it necessary to send out frequent supplies, and therefore he would not detain them on that subject.—An increase had been made in the regular cavalry of 126 officers, which caused an increased charge of 22,400 l. In the regiments of the line, the returns of the present year presented an increase of 9,522 men, of which the charge was 277,000 l. This increase was made by the transfer of a considerable portion of the array which had been in the service of the East India Company, and which had been maintained by them

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in their territorial acquisitions. These, in consequence of their late conquests, were no longer wanted by them, and were therefore transferred to the crown. In the charge was also included a second battalion, which had been raised within the year to the 12th regiment of foot. The waggon-train had been also augmented. A considerable portion of this force was employed in the peninsula, and from the value set on their services by lord Wellington, two troops, which it had been in contemplation to reduce, were still retained. Of their utility, lord Wellington's last dispatches bore honourable testimony, and two troops had been added, in consequence of the report which that noble lord had made of them. Adding two troops, and thus raising their number from nine to eleven, it was, however, to be observed, that they were still short of what they formerly were by one troop.—The noble lord, among other items, stated to the committee, that, in the miscellaneous services, there was an increase of expence amounting to 25,000 l. The increase on this head would have been larger, but for the diminution on the Irish establishment. The increase arose from larger sums having been given to recruits than were formerly given. In the year 23,000 men had been raised, on which the charge was 513,000 l. Last year, for the first time, a sum was specified for the recruiting service. It had, however, turned out, that the sum named had fallen short 70,000 l. but the diminution in the Irish establishment, arising from the appropriation of beer money and contingencies, reduced the total increase to 25,000 l. from the sum total 350,000 l. might be deducted as applicable to other services.—He had another item to propose, under the head of allowances for the cure of wounds, and the loss of baggage of officers in the army. It was usual in such cases to give them a gratuity of a year's pay, and to allow them certain other compensations. In the navy, however, it was usual to grant pensions in such cases, according to the rank of the officer at the time he received his wounds. His royal highness the Prince Regent, anxious to place the army on a better footing than heretofore, had commanded him to propose an additional vote on that head, for granting pensions to officers wounded in the army. If this proposition were agreed to, it was the wish of his Royal Highness to extend the provision retrospectively
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to all who had been wounded since the commencement of the war in 1793, and he was persuaded the House would be happy by their concurrence in such a motion, to mark the high sense they had of the services of those whom it was proposed to relieve.—He then took a view of the number and charge of the forces paid out of the revenues of the East India Company, and proceeded to take a survey of the state of the Militia. There, he observed, the hon. House would be quite surprised to find that there was a diminution in number amounting to 14,000, while there appeared an increased charge of 800 l. At the time the estimates were framed last year, the numbers of the militia considerably exceeded its regular establishment; but as it was then in the contemplation of government to propose two measures to parliament on the subject (the interchange of the militias, and the permitting them to volunteer into the line), they were not called upon then to make a provision suitable to the number then embodied, while a deduction was made of 150,000 l. for non-effectives. On the Foreign Staff, Home Staff, and Irish Staff there appeared an increase of 75,000 l. This he explained as arising in a great measure from that charge being transferred to the army estimates, which had been formerly included in the grant for foreign corps, and from an increase in the foreign staff. This increase was principally on the foreign staff in the peninsula. The additional charge was incurred in consequence of the promotion of the general officers, and through an augmentation of the number of medical men on the staff. The utility of this arrangement was sufficiently obvious from the improved state of the army in point of health. The staff in our colonies was included in this statement, and in the Mauritius, which was entirely new to the estimate—Under the head of full-pay of retired officers, there was a diminution of 563 l. in consequence of the death of certain officers. Under the head of half-pay and allowances, there was a diminution of 3,481 l. In the estimate for the in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham, compared with the estimate of last year, there was a diminution of 640 l. This, however, was not a saving nor a diminution to be reckoned on as permanent. In those establishments the pensioners were only cloathed once in two years; and this being the alternate year in which they were not to receive

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clothing, the diminution was at once accounted for, while the sum was to be expected again in the estimate of next year. The estimate for the out-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham, exceeded that of the last year by 47,705 l. The principal increase in this head arose from the increase of the number of pensioners. The pay-master general, it would be remembered, had two or three years back recovered 200,000 l. from certain prize agents. Of this sum 100,000 l. in 1810, had been applied to the public service, and the further sum of 25,000 l. in the last year. The remaining balance it was thought proper to keep for the service of the establishment. From this it would be seen that 25,000 l. of the sum named was not actually an increase. On the Widows' Pensions there was an increase of 855 l. which arose from the increase of their numbers. For the Volunteer Corps, there was a diminution of 34,850 l. In the Foreign Corps, there was an increase of men to the full amount of 5,503, and the charge consequent on this increase was 180,000 l. These were so effective, that one corps consisting of 2,000 men exceeded its establishment by 30 or 40, and out of their whole number in our service, amounting to 27,000 men, there were not more than 1,500 non-effective.—In the estimate for the Royal Military College there was a reduction of 7,517 l. This did not arise from any charges of the establishment, but was caused by the balance of a former vote remaining in hand, applicable to the service of the current year. In point of fact, there was an increase of 1,200 l.; but this, set against the total amount of the balance in hand, made a diminution in the estimate, as he had stated before, of 7,517 l. For the building of Sandhurst College, the sum, in the estimate, was 100,000 l. The original estimate was 175,000 l. Of this sum 40,000 l. had been voted in 1810, 30,000 l. in 1811; if, therefore (as the building was expected to be completed in the course of the present year,) they resolved on voting the sum necessary for its completion, they could not grant less than 100,000 l. In the charges for the support of the Royal Military Asylum, there was an increase of 1,364 l. and on the Compassionate Fund an increase of 1,913 l. On the Irish Barrack department there was a diminution of 49,320 l.; and there was one in the Commissariat department of 16,113 l. and under the head of Superannuated Allowances
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there was to be seen a diminution of 3,568 l.—The noble lord here summed up his statements, and took a general view of the subject, and of the measures adopted during the last year for recruiting the regular army. The additional charge on the increased numbers in our army, he stated to be 576,166 l. In the last year there had been raised for the regular army:—By the ordinary mode of enlistment 11,472. By allowing the militia to volunteer into the line 11,716. For the foreign corps 4,795. These, added to the Greek infantry, would make a total of not less than 28 or 29,000. These were more than enough to cover all the casualties of the year; and while in numbers it was seen that more had been raised than was sufficient to cover those casualties that might occur, it was most satisfactory to find the casualties were less than they had been in the preceding year. In 1810, the casualties amounted to between 24 and 25,000; in the last year they did not exceed 21,000, and hence it would be found, that the aggregate increase in our army was not less than 7,889. Not only had our military force thus increased in the last year, but if we calculated as we ought to calculate on the probability of our being still called on to persevere in the contest in which we were engaged, it was satisfactory to find, that what he might call the recruitable capacity of the country, was still such, that it would abundantly supply the means. Of the number raised in the last year, there were more English subjects than were sufficient to cover all the casualties of the army. They exceeded the casualties by 2,000, as while the latter did not exceed 21,000, the former amounted to 23,188, leaving a clear surplus to the amount before stated. It might be said that this statement was too high, and that an allowance should be made for the number of the militia that had volunteered over the number which it had been proposed to draw from thence to recruit the regular army. This might, perhaps, be said, as more than 11,000 had so volunteered, when but 10,000 were called for. Making, however, the necessary deduction on this account, still would it be found that the number properly raised within the year, would cover the casualties, as deducting the surplus he had alluded to, 21,286 would remain. Notwithstanding we had been fighting battles in almost every part of the world; notwithstanding we had been incessantly engaged in de-

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structive sieges, and notwithstanding we had made important conquests, still it would hence be seen that all the casualties of the year, including the ravages made in our ranks by the various climates to which our troops had been exposed, as well as those occasioned by the sword, were more than covered by the extent of our population, and that without severely pressing on the civil part of that population. While this cheering view was presented by the state of our resources at home, and while we were still waging successful war against the enemy in various parts of the world, it was in no small degree gratifying to see our enemy himself furnishing us with the means of successful resistance to his unprincipled aggressions. It was seen, that wherever he found his way, and dragged the reluctant inhabitants to his standard, to be at once the victims and the instruments of his diabolical and unjust oppression, no sooner were they converted into soldiers in his service, than at the first opportunity they quitted his detested ranks and came over to the English. With these observations he should now conclude, reserving to himself the right of replying to any remarks that might be made on the statements he had had the honour to make. The noble lord then concluded by moving his first Resolution.
Mr. Bankescomplimented the noble lord on the perspicuous statement be had made, and expressed his satisfaction at the success which had attended the recruiting for the line. He lamented, at the same time, the frequent change of system in some departments, for instance the cavalry, by which the country was put to great expence.—He then adverted to the Corps de Depot, not noticed by the noble lord, and inquired why it was not noticed? He feared that the college at Sandhurst would exceed the estimate: its object was good, but he hoped that economy would be practised. There was one part of the Estimates to which he had not only a strong objection, but would take the sense of the Committee upon it, or if he did not press it to night, he should certainly when the report was brought up. He alluded to the item in the 32d page of the Estimates, of a sum of 2,790 l. to be paid to the Paymaster of Widows' Pensions. He saw that charge with unaffected surprise; and he thought that such an office should not be filled up at such a time, in the very teeth of a Resolution entered on the Journals
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of that House, and made on the 31st of May, 1810. That Resolution stated that it was expedient to abolish all offices executed by deputy. Was it not, then, a most extraordinary matter, and one which it would well become the House to examine, that an office, such as he was now alluding to, should, in defiance of the sense of the House, be filled up, when, it was evident, there was no effective duties to discharge? The case, too, was the more extraordinary when it was remembered that commissioners, military commissioners, appointed by a government whose views were not peculiarly favourable to the abolition of sinecure places, had reported of this very office, "That it was executed entirely by deputy and clerks, that the principal never appeared at all in the business, that the office appeared to them unnecessary, that the public derived no benefit from it, that it was a perfect sinecure to the principal, and not much less so to the deputy, and that, as it created an unnecessary expence to the public, it ought no longer to exist." When these circumstances were joined together in the remembrance of the House, he should not think that parliament did its duty, if such a manifest violation of its Resolution was permitted; and when, therefore, the Resolution which related to that estimate was proposed, he should move for its deduction, and if he failed in obtaining it, which he could hardly imagine would be the case, he would take a further opportunity of resisting it when the Report of the Committee was received.
Colonel M'Mahonrose and spoke as follows:—Sir, I must intreat the indulgence of the House for a few moments, on a subject which of late has so frequently been brought before its consideration. I mean, Sir, the office of Receiver and Paymaster to the Widows' Pensions. At the time, Sir, when the Prince Regent was graciously pleased to confer upon me this office, his Royal Highness, as has been already stated by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, certainly gave it to me subject to the will and pleasure of this House. On such conditions, Sir, most certainly I accepted it, and to that will and pleasure I now most implicitly bow. Sir, I must beg to observe, that this goodness on the part of his Royal Highness, was entirely spontaneous; for I never had the presumption to suppose that any humble services I could give to

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the illustrious personage whom I have the pride and happiness to serve, could entitle me to claim any public remuneration; and I do readily agree with an hon. gentleman, who, on a former night, with more justice than perhaps kindness, observed, that the situation I possessed in his Royal Highness's family was perfectly sufficient for any services I could render. Indeed, Sir, I will go further than that hon. gentleman, by declaring my reward to be more than sufficient, and owning that life at this moment seems to promise me but too short a span to ever requite, by any services, the abundant over-payment which the generous and noble heart of my royal master has heaped upon me for sixteen years past, in acts of kindness and affection—acts which have been of so delicate and peculiar a nature, as to bind my life, heart, and soul, in eternal love and attachment towards him. It seems, Sir, to have erroneously gone abroad, that this office was not a civil, but a military one, from my predecessor having been for many years, and at the time of his death, a general officer; but I beg to observe, in proof of its being a civil, and not a military office, that if my information be correct, general Fox did enjoy this office before, and when he was a lieutenant of dragoons. If so, Sir, I am not called upon to make out any case of military services, for this distinction. But, Sir, were such a case to be necessary, I flatter myself that I could have the good fortune without any ostentation, or without any departure from becoming modesty, by an appeal to the testimonies of commanders eminently high in the profession, and deservedly so in the estimation of their country, under whom I had the honour to serve, that few men had undergone, in the same space of time, more real and actual service, and with more individual credit to himself, than I had the good fortune to do in the several gradations of rank, from ensign to colonel, for 21 years, from 1775 to 1796; when, from ill health, and that chiefly acquired in the service, having served the entire seven years of the American war, I was compelled to retire from the army; in which, however, had it been my lot to have continued until this time, equally fortunate and unimpeached in my conduct, I should hope that I might now have the honour to be a lieutenant-general in his Majesty's service. I have now, Sir, only one or two observations more to trespass on the House. I beg leave, Sir,
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to submit to its feeling, that I have by the acceptance of this office already vacated my seat in parliament, and since undergone the inconvenience and difficulties of a re-election for it; and although I am quite satisfied that the office of Receiver and Paymaster to the Widows' Pensions is of a most efficient and important nature in its duties, having nearly 1,600 widows to keep a regular account with, by three several payments in every year, to write in the course of each payment as many letters to them, and to take an equal number of affidavits on those different occasions, and which duties would well require not only the constant attendance of one chief and two or three assistant clerks, besides the proper personal superintendance of the Receiver and Paymaster to the Widows' Pensions himself; and also that the item of the poundage is always greatly over-rated in the army estimates, by the events of deaths, marriages, and other casualties, which considerably diminish it. Still, Sir, I have no wish for any tenure of this appointment beyond the decided sense and pleasure of this House, and intirely submit it with the utmost respect to their favourable construction and judgment. For the recollection of the most kind, handsome and liberal beyond my merit, tributes which have been paid to my character, private and personal, by so many honourable and highly respectable gentlemen, in the course of the several discussions which this subject has already undergone, I shall ever be most grateful for, and it will be a reward to my feelings of greater value than any other I could receive upon earth.
Mr. Bennetthought it a monstrous and intolerable proposition to grant 2,790 l. a year to a person who had such slender claims on the public, on the very night when they were voting only 2,000 l. to the earl of Wellington, and would give his entire concurrence to the motion of the hon. gentleman.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the filling up of the office had not been done from ignorance of the Report of the Commissioners alluded to: that was not the ground upon which the transaction was to be defended. The appointment, in fact, of the hon. colonel, did not form the slightest impediment to parliament exercising its rights, just the same as if the appointment had not taken place. When the grant of it was made to colonel

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M'Mahon by his Royal Highness, there was nothing stipulated which could afford the slightest claim for its being retained as a matter of right, in opposition to the will of parliament. On the contrary, it was expressly stated, that he was to receive it as an office likely to undergo the discussion of parliament—likely to undergo a reform—likely even to be abolished; and if so, he could have no claim to oppose to such reformation, or to such abolition. There was nothing, therefore, to preclude the hon. member from making his motion, nothing to impede any one in giving his vote upon that motion—as far as regarded either the one or the other, it was as if the office still remained unfilled. He would wish to know, therefore, what had been done, in appointing colonel M'Mahon, which could be construed into flying in the face of parliament, when the very way in which the appointment was made was one which left it free to the discussion and to the disposal of parliament? In that committee which had been alluded to, it was a distinct specification that no sinecures should be abolished without a previous consideration how those who held them should be otherwise rewarded; and it was a question for parliament to consider, what reward might be justly due in this case. The services, the civil services, which the hon. colonel had performed for his prince, gave him a claim upon the generosity of his royal master. The right hon. gentleman then stated what had been the specific intention of the committee in recommending the abolition of this office; and concluded by observing, that whatever might be the sense of the committee, of the House, or of parliament on the subject, he trusted, at least, that no one would concur with the hon. gentleman in thinking that the office had been granted in such a way as could be interpreted into a violation of the express declarations of that House.
Mr. Whitbreadmerely wished to ask the right hon. gentleman, whether he thought the hon. colonel, for whom he sincerely professed a very high esteem, really executed that description of high and effective office which was meant by the Resolutions alluded to?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that he had made any such statement; and he denied that it was the intention of parliament to deprive the crown of any means of reward for such services as might be deemed worthy of reward; nor could he
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believe otherwise, till such intention, if it existed, was passed into a law.
Mr. Tierneyagreed with gentlemen in thinking that the Prince Regent ought to have the means of rewarding old and faithful servants; but the question was, whether or not the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not, under all the circumstances of the case, grossly misconducted himself in advising the grant of this sinecure in the teeth of a Resolution of that House. At the time that the House came to that Resolution, he was anxious that there should be some specific understanding between the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bankes) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to what was to be done after the passing of that resolution until the meeting of parliament; for sure he was that otherwise the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, at the first opportunity, set their resolutions at defiance: indeed, the right hon. gentleman had told them, that he did not think them operative upon him, because, truly, he himself had always opposed them; but if the right hon. gent. had been at all anxious to preserve any show of decency in the mode of this grant, why could he not have suspended the office till the meeting of parliament? But it seemed that in granting the office, he had told the gallant colonel, that he was to receive it subject to the will of parliament—a mighty condescension truly! as if the right of parliament to quash any such grant depended upon this saving condition made by the right hon. gentleman. But had he done his duty to his royal master, by thus holding him up as a public spectacle, and exposing him in one of the most prominent acts of a new reign to so much clamour and ill humour? As for the hon. colonel, no blame attached to him. He was offered a good place with nothing to do, and he took it, but certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer had placed him in a most awkward situation. Was there no other way of rewarding the services of the gallant colonel than by flying in the face of a resolution of that House, and exposing the Prince Regent to all the opprobrium of such a grant, dragging him as it were through the dirt for the last six months, by making him so prominent in granting a sinecure in the purest and most disgusting sense of the word—and after all, what must be the consequence?—the hon. colonel could not keep it. He could not possibly rise on Tuesday morning in possession of it. He lamented the circum-

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stance, for he thought most respectably of the claims of that hon. colonel to the Prince's kindest notice, and was of opinion that he had been most hardly treated in being made to accept of so objectionable an office. He should give his decided vote for striking it out of the Items.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, be would not grant any sinecure or reversionary places which did not come under the authority of parliament. It was impossible for him to characterize the ill-humour of the expressions made use of on the subject by the other side of the House. He never felt that any person was responsible for the advice given on this subject to the Prince Regent, but himself. He thought it was a fair exercise of his duty, as parliament had not enacted that sinecures should be done away with. The Resolution of the House of Commons was nothing, until it was recognized by parliament; and it never had had its sanction. He thought sinecure places better than the provision that was proposed in the place of them. The situation could not be granted to the hon. colonel for life, while the Prince Regent was under restrictions, and so he informed him; but that he was to hold it until parliament met. He thought the appointment ought not to be interfered with until sinecures were abolished altogether. A mistaken statement had gone out to the public, that the poundage came out of the Widows' Pensions. It was not the case: for the salary was calculated from the amount paid to the widows, and government liquidated the debt: not one shilling was taken from the original pensions. (Hear, hear!)
Mr. Johnstonesaid, it was a most unfortunate appointment, and it would be a length of time before the new reign would recover it: esteeming as he did the administration of his right hon. friend, and wishing him full success in his new career, he must yet vote against the present question. The present was not a question of clamour and ill-humour: every impartial man out of the House had been hurt at the little attention paid by his right hon. friend to the recommendation of the House of Commons in the appointment alluded to. It had been most unfortunate advice; it had excited in the nation unfavourable sentiments and ill omens of the new reign. He could not, without injury to himself, and still more without injury to the character of the House, suppress these reflection, especially when he reflected on what
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had lately happened in that House,—when it had, on a subject which it had repeatedly espoused, been completely turned round by the bare suggestion of his right hon. friend. He should think himself disgraced if he did not rote against this sinecure.
Mr. Elliotobserved that he could not let the subject pass without expressing his opinion, that the ordinary recruiting was not equal to one half of the waste of the army; there were also a number of desertions, which were caused by the morals of the lower orders of the people being corrupted. The Prince Regent had acted most laudably towards a meritorious servant, but he thought he had been unwisely advised.
General Fergusonobserved, that there was sometimes too little attention paid to the description of recruits that were sent to join regiments. To his knowledge there was a regiment in Guernsey, 600 strong, to which the commanding officer had paid the greatest attention, not only with respect to discipline, but to their morals also. There was an order lately to complete that regiment, and for that purpose 147 convicts had been sent to them from the hulks. This must certainly be very painful to an officer who had paid the strictest attention to the morals of his men.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, if the statement of the hon. general was grounded on fact, it was incumbent on the House to require that the culprits should be recalled.
Mr. Secretary Rydersaid, that it was by the advice of Mr. Graham that a number of persons who had been sent on board the hulks for slight offences, and conducted themselves very well during their confinement, were permitted to volunteer into regiments going on foreign service.
General Fergusonsaid, that this was a garrison battalion, and not a regiment going on foreign service.
After a few further observations the usual annual Resolutions were agreed to.
On the Resolution, "That a sum, not exceeding 62,159 l. 13 s. 6d. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the charge of Pensions to be paid to Widows of Officers of the land forces, and expenses attending the same, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th Dec. 1811 to the 24th Dee. 1812."
Mr. Bankes Mr. Bankes moved as an Amendment, "That the amount of the sum expected to be paid to the Paymaster of Widows,

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Pensions, being 12 d. in the pound on the said Pensions (2,790 l. 1s.) be deducted from the said sum." Upon this the Committee divided, when the numbers were

For the original Motion

54

For Mr. Bankes's Amendment

38

Majority against the Amendment

—16

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, J.

Horner, F.

Adams, C.

Hutchinson, C. H.

Baring, Sir T.

Johnstone, G.

Bankes, H.

Kemp, T. R.

Bankes, W.

Lockhart, J.

Babington, T.

Macdonald, J.

Busk, W.

Martin, H.

Bowyer, Sir G.

Neville, Hon. R.

Bennet, Hon. H. G.

Pochin, C.

Brougham, H.

Parnell, H.

Combe, H. C.

Sebright, Sir J.

Calvert, N.

Sharp, R.

Campbell, Gen.

Smith, W.

Eden, Hon. G.

Sumner, G. H.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W.

Temple, Earl

Fergusson, Gen.

Tierney, Rt. Hon. G.

Fremantle, W.

Vernon, G. G. V.

Fane, John

Wynn, C. W. W.

Grenfell, P.

Whitbread, S.

Graham, T.

List of the Majority.

Arbuthnot, C.

Long, C.

Ashburnham, G.

Montgomery, Sir J.

Benyon, R.

Montague, M.

Bathurst, Rt. Hon. C.

Nepean, Sir E.

Beresford, Capt.

Patteson, J.

Bickerton, Sir R.

Palmerston, Visc.

Bagwell, W.

Perceval, Rt. Hon. S.

Bourne, S.

Phipps, Gen.

Courtenay, T. P.

Peel, R.

Clements, H. J.

Pole, W.

Clerke, Sir G.

Robinson, Gen. J.

Croker, J. W.

Robinson, Hon. F.

Chute, W.

Rose, Rt. Hon. G.

Disbrowe, E.

Ryder, Rt. Hon. R.

Desart, Lord

Singleton, M.

Farquhar, James

Sutton, M.

Fitzgerald, W.

Swann, H.

Gibbs, Sir V.

Thomson, Sir T.

Goulbourn, H.

Tempest, Sir H. V.

Greenough, G. B.

Tyrwhitt, T.

Herbert, C.

Wharton, R.

Holmes, W.

Ward, R.

Hume, Sir A.

Wallace, T.

Herbert, H.

Walpole, Lord

Hill, Sir G.

Wellesley, R.

Hall, B.

Wood, Col.

Kenrick, W.

Wedderburne, Sir D.

Lygon, W. B.