Commons Sitting of 20 April 1812

PETITIONS FROM PRESTON, DUMFRIES, BRISTOL, BILSTON, AND KINGSTON UPON HULL, RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
A Petition of several inhabitants of the borough of Preston, in the county of Lancaster, was presented and read: setting forth,
"That the Petitioners, having observed that an application ha" been made to parliament, on behalf of the East India Company, for a renewal of their Charter, they feel it to be due to themselves, and the country at large, respectfully to submit to the House their sentiments on the subject; and that the Petitioners are humbly of opinion, that the monopoly of the trade to the East Indies, by an incorporated Company, with exclusive privileges, to Ute prejudice of private British merchants
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and traders, is impolitic and unjust in its principle, and has been practically detrimental to the interests of the nation at large; and that a considerable proportion of the Petitioners are engaged in trade and manufacture, and consequently feel the effects of the existing restraints upon commerce; and they are not induced, by those restraints only, to call the attention of the House to the subject of the monopoly in question; in common with the rest of their fellow subjects, the Petitioners submit, with patience, to such restrictions as necessarily arise from the actual stale of Europe, and wish not to purchase an open trade by dishonourable concessions to an enemy, or to any foreign country whatever, feeling, as they do, a perfect confidence that those restrictions will be removed as early as possible, consistently with the honour and safety of the British empire; but they are sincerely convinced, upon grounds of general policy and actual experience, that the Charter of the East India Company ought not to be renewed, and that the commerce of those extensive territories, in which that Company has now the exclusive right of trading, ought to be free and open to all his Majesty's subjects; and that the extinction of this monopoly appears to the Petitioners to be equally desirable, with a view to the interests of all classes of society, excepting only those persons who are connected with the East India Company, experience having shown, that in this commercial country, the value of property of every description is considerably influenced by the existing state of trade and manufactures; and that, as the Petitioners see no national ground for prohibiting the open commerce of British subjects in general with any country of the East, so neither are they aware of any such ground for limiting the exports or imports to any particular port in the United Kingdom; and they trust in the wisdom and firmness of parliament for the exclusion of all partial considerations on any of these points; and praying, that the House will take these matters into their serious consideration, and not permit any Bill to pass which shall have the effect of excluding private British merchants and traders from a free and open commerce with any of those countries in which the present Charter of the East India Company enables them to monopolize the trade, or which shall limit the exports or imports to or from the East to any particular port or ports in Great

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Britain; and that no restrictions whatever may be imposed in any of these respects, but such as shall unequivocally appear to the House to be clearly and absolutely necessary upon public and national grounds of expediency."
A Petition of the provost bailies and councillors of the royal borough of Dumfries, in Scotland, for themselves and as representing the burgesses and community of the said borough, was also presented and read: setting forth,
"That, by various charters granted at different æras, sanctioned by the parliament of Great Britain, extensive powers and privileges have been conferred upon a society of merchants, denominated Merchants trading to the East Indies; and as all the liege subjects of his Majesty have been restricted and prohibited, under severe pains and penalties, from exercising the extension of commerce in those parts of the world situated to the Eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, that Company has solely monopolized the whole trade and commerce in those distant and extensive regions, to the exclusion of the other subjects of Great Britain, although the Petitioners have reason to believe that the flags of other nations in amity with Great Britain, have been permitted by our government to exercise such an extensive freedom of commerce; and that the Petitioners farther understand, that means are now using by the East India Company for a renewal of their unlimited Charter, Which is "aid to expire in or about the month of March, 1814 but, as the Petitioners conceive such renewal would be nothing more than a continuance of degradation to the commercial spirit of the nation, they have now met in common council, and, after mature deliberation, have resolved humbly and constitutionally to solicit and petition the House, either to refuse entirely a renewal of the Charter to the East India Company, or to grant it under such provisions and limitations as will permit the subjects of this kingdom to extend its commerce, without being subjected to the pains and penalties hitherto imposed in favour of the Company, or at least to put them on the same commercial footing as the subjects of other states not at variance with the interests of Great Britain; and praying the House to adopt such measures, either in the granting under limitations or entirely refusing a renewal of the Charier to the East India
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Company, so as that British subjects may have such a participation of the trade and commerce of those parts of India as may be consistent with the honour justice and commercial interests of this great nation."
A Petition of several merchants, traders and other inhabitants of the city of Bristol, was also presented and read; set-ting forth,
"That the Petitioners, in contemplation of an intended application to the legislature by the East India Company, for a renewal of their exclusive privilege of trade, and confident in the justice and wisdom of the House, the natural and powerful guardians of the people's rights, deem it their indispensable duty thus early to represent to the House, that the full and free right to trade to and with all countries and people in amity with their sovereign, and more particularly with those countries and settlements acquired and maintained by the efforts and valour of the forces of his Majesty, is the undoubted birthright and inheritance of the people of this empire; and that the exclusive privilege of the East India Company is a manifest infringement of that right, from which many and great evils have resulted; and that the Petitioners further humbly submit to the House, as a sound and incontrovertible principle, that, in this enlightened age, commerce can neither be benefited nor extended by monopoly; and that all ideas of direct participation by the public treasury, in behalf of the nation, in the profits of trade, as a compensation or purchase for such monopolized commerce, must and ever will be vain and illusory; and the petitioners humbly adduce the disappointed expectations of the nation and the legislature, in regard to the East India Company, in complete illustration of this principle; and they refer to the information before the House, to shew that the trade carried on by the East India Company has decreased at the very time when, by British exertions, its field has been extended, and itself protected from enemies and hostile rivalry; and that foreigners, by the advantages of free and unfettered exertions, have been at the same time successfully competing with the East India Company, not only in the trade of the Company's own settlements, but also in the trade to China, to a vast amount, whilst such trades have I been long and obstinately denied to the subjects of the United Kingdom; and that

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the petitioners further humbly shew to the House, that the prospect of pecuniary participation held out to the country in 1793, not only has not been realized, but has been converted into repeated claims by the East India Company on the public purse and credit; and that further and still greater pecuniary assistance is now required, to avert embarrassments in which: the East India Company must otherwise soon be involved; and that the Petitioners rely, with the utmost confidence, that the House will diregard any arguments that may be adduced in favour of the East India Company's exclusive privilege, which would, if admitted, apply with equal force against the freedom of any and of every branch of British commerce, the whole of which might thus be paralized by monopoly (as this great arm of our strength has been) to the ruin of our naval greatness and the consequent downfall of our independence; and that the Petitioners beg leave humbly to submit to the House, that of all the effects of monopoly none is so injurious as its confinement of commerce to a particular port; and that the principal out-ports of the United Kingdom have an undoubted right to equal privilege of trade with the port of London, bearing, as they do cheerfully, their full and common proportion of the burthens of the state, and the privations which the unexampled state of Europe has brought upon the trading and manufacturing classes of the community; and that trade, when confined to a single port of a great empire, must of necessity, from being cramped and narrowed, languish and decline; and that great and expensive improvements have of late years been made in most of the principal out-ports, with a view to the extension of commerce and to the accommodation of a larger class of ships; and that the known loyalty, integrity, and opulence of the merchants resident in the out-ports, afford ample security for their care of the vital interests of their country, in respect of its national revenue, which the Petitioners, with deference, assert, is as diligently and faithfully collected, and as cheerfully paid, in those out-ports, as in the port of London; and that the Petitioners, however far from having a wish to deprive the East India Company of any right or claim they may have on the justice or liberality of parliament for indemnification, are most anxious that all such claims may be fairly examined, and fully and liberally remunerated; but further
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humbly submit to the House, that the means of such remuneration should arise from a fair and equal impost on the trade in question, and should not be attempted by restrictions, which can only serve to shackle and injure commerce, and to harass and perplex the merchant, without any solid benefit to the East India Company; and praying that the House will refuse to comply with any application that may be made by the East India Company for a renewal of their exclusive privilege, and will leave the trade to India and China fully and freely open to the enterprize, skill, and capital of the merchants of the United Kingdom, subject only to such salutary laws for its regulation and protection as the legislature, in its wisdom and paternal care, may deem necessary; and that the Petitioners may be allowed to be heard, by themselves, their counsel and agents, at the bar of the House, in support of the objects of their Petition."
A Petition of the master wardens and commonalty of merchant venturers of the city of Bristol, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners observe, with the deepest concern, that the East India Company have petitioned the House for a renewal of their Charter, which will expire in the year 1814, upon the principle, either in whole or in part, of their retaining exclusive possession of the trade to the vast regions contained between the Cape of Good Hope and the Straits of Magellan; and the Petitioners humbly represent, that the right to a full and free participation of trade and commerce to all parts and places possessed by, or in amity with, the United Kingdom, belongs in common to all persons and every port within these realms; and that, to restrict the exports or imports to and from so large a portion of the habitable globe as the territories of India singly to the port of London, is not only a manifest breach of this general right, but moreover must cramp and confine the trade itself, discourage the industry of his Majesty's subjects, and keep down the amount of the national revenue; and that the energy, spirit and enterprize of British merchants, when unfettered, will not only tend to enlarge the present means of diffusing British articles throughout India, the islands and the vast dominions of China, but probably lead to the discovery of new channels and hitherto unexplored regions of commerce, which

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are objects of essential importance to the country at this time, when the greatest part of the continent of Europe is barred against British merchants and British manufactures; and that, subsequently to the act of 1793, namely, in 1797, it was deemed expedient to grant to the United States of America, and to such nations of Europe as were in amity with his Majesty, complete freedom of trade to the whole of the East India Company's settlements, from which, and from her intercourse with China, America has not only supplied her own wants, but it is a notorious fact that, from the same source, the British West India colonies have been inundated, and the Mediterranean, and other parts of Europe, have been partially supplied with East India and Chinese products and manufactures; and that the fears which the East India Company express, that a free, open, and unrestrained intercourse between British merchants and the subjects of China, may lead to quarrels, and ultimately to the total stoppage of that branch of commerce, are proved to be groundless, by the experience of a long course of years, during which the subjects of the united States of America have enjoyed free intercourse with China without any such consequence having resulted therefrom; and that the port and harbour of Bristol has, at a vast expence, been rendered capable of receiving and keeping afloat ships of very considerable burthen; and the Petitioners think themselves warranted in asserting that the duties of customs and excise are as well secured, and as freely and faithfully paid and collected in that port as they can possibly be in the port of London; and praying, that the House will not consent to renew to the East India Company any of those exclusive commercial privileges which are contained in the 33d of his Majesty, c. 52; but that, from the expiration of that act, the trade to all parts of the East Indies, the Eastern Archipelago, and China, may be as freely and fully open to all persons and ports of the United Kingdom as it at present is exclusively to the E. I. Company, and solely to the port of London,"
A Petition of the Directors of the Bristol Dock Company, for and on behalf of the said Company, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners, under the authority of an act passed in the 43 d year of his present Majesty, bay" constructed
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works of great magnitude and expence whereby the port of Bristol is converted into a floating harbour; and many great inconveniences, to which the trade and shipping were before subject, are now effectually remedied; and that looking for ward to the period when the East India trade should be thrown open to the exertions and industry of all his Majesty's subjects, the Petitioners formed their locks upon a scale calculated for the admission of vessels employed in such trade, and of much larger size than was necessary for the shipping usually frequenting the port; and that, in the completion of a work of so large an extent, the petitioners laid out a sum not less than 600,000 l. for which vast expenditure they had no hopes or prospect of ever receiving an adequate return, except from the increase of the trade expected to result from the improvement; and that their expectations in that respect have been hithero entirely disappointed, owing principally to the unexampled state of affairs on the continent of Europe, whereby some branches of trade heretofore enjoyed by the port of Bristol have been lost, and others materially lessened; and in consequence thereof, the duties made payable by parliament to the petitioners, as a remuneration for their advances, have fallen far short of the intent of the legislature, and are not at this time equal to pay a dividend of two and an half per centum on the total expenditure; and that, in the present general and alarming depression of trade throughout the kingdom, it is peculiarly fortunate for the country that the approaching termination of the East India Company's Charter will afford a resource of a most extensive and ample nature, and perfectly independent of the power or controul of the common enemy, by enabling parliament to throve open to the individual exertions of all his Majesty's subjects a trade hitherto confined to the exclusive enjoyment of a single company; and praying, that the House will refuse to sanction any Bill for the renewal of the East India Company's Charter, and thereby afford to the petitioners and to the country at large that relief which the peculiar circumstances of the times seem imperiously to require."
A Petition of several manufacturers and other inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Bilston, in the county of Stafford, was also presented and read; setting forth.

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"That in consequence of the system which prevails upon nearly the whole of the continent of Europe of excluding British produce, and of the unfortunate mis-understanding with the united States of America, which has caused their ports to be closed, the trade and manufactures of the petitioners hare undergone a very severe and unprecedented depression; and that when the petitioners observe the inflexible perseverance with which the French ruler pursues his plan of annoying, and, if possible, annihilating the commerce of this country, and likewise the overwhelming influence he has obtained in almost every part of Europe, they cannot but regard as hopeless any prospect of re-admission to the continental markets; and that the petitioners are decidedly averse to any tame and ignominious submission to the enemy by which the honour of the nation might be sullied and its interests compromised, but they feel it a duty to express their full conviction, that unless some modes of commercial relief be adopted, the welfare and independence of the empire will be materially endangered; and it appears to the petitioners that the East Indies would afford an extent of country and population fully equal to the consumption of all the British manufactures that are at present shut out of their usual markets; therefore they cannot but lament the existence of a monopoly which excludes the subjects of this country from their just and natural rights, and which, in common with all other commercial monopolies, is totally inconsistent with the principles of sound justice and policy; and that moreover the petitioners humbly state their firm opinion, that the advantages arising to the East India Company from their exclusive commercial privileges are very trifling, if any; that the mercantile interests of the kingdom at large are thereby exposed to severe and mischievous privations, that at the same time other nations are suffered to engross the benefits of the Eastern trade, and that consequently the abolition of the East India monopoly would be a most desireable measure; and that the petitioners therefore most earnestly implore the House to take into immediate consideration the present distressed state of the trade and manufactures of the country, and to adopt such measures as will be most conducive to their relief, by opening the Eastern markets to the spirit, enterprize, and ingenuity of the empire at large."
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A Petition of the dock company st Kingston-upon-Hull, was also presented and read; setting forth,
" That, in the 14th year of his present Majesty, an act passed for making a dock, and building a public quay, or wharf, at-Kingston-upon-Hull, and for the better securing his Majesty's revenues of customs; and that, soon after the passing of the said act, the petitioners, at great expence, made an extensive dock for the accommodation of shipping, and built a commodious quay, or wharf, along the side thereof accordingly; and that, in pursuance of an act passed in the 42d year of his present Majesty, the petitioners also lately, at an expence of upwards of 220,000 l. made another dock at the said port, with an entrance into the same, capable of admitting his Majesty's ships of war of 50 guns, together with other extensive quays and wharfs contiguous thereto; and that, by the terms of the last-mentioned act, the petitioners are required to make another dock, and to provide further accommodation for the trade of the said port, whenever a specified increase of tonnage of the shipping resorting to the same may take place and that, in addition to the works above enumerated, the petitioners have erected-several substantial and convenient warehouses immediately contiguous to the said legal quay, for the reception of goods, wares, and merchandizes imported into, and intended for exportation, from the said port; and that the circumstance of the port of Hull being situate on the river Humber, and communicating, by navigable rivers and canals, with the manufacturing counties of York, Lancaster, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, and Stafford, and with most other parts of the kingdom, would enable the merchants and ship owners of Hull to participate, with peculiar advantage to themselves, and with perfect safety to the revenue in the trade to the East Indies; and praying, that the House will be pleased to adopt such measures as they may deem expedient, to obtain to the port of Hull a participation in the trade to the East Indies, and particularly to the empire of China, on the expiration of the East India Company's Charter.
A Petition of the guild or brotherhood of masters and pilots, seamen of the Trinity-house of Kingston-upon-Hull, was also presented and read; setting forth

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"That, however necessary the monopoly of the East India Company might have been at the time it was originally granted, by which that Company became possessed of the whole trade of India, China, and other countries comprehended in their Charter, it is now become inexpedient, as a measure of general national policy, is unjust and extremely prejudicial to the interests of all other British merchants and ship owners; and that, in case the trade to the British dominions in India, and to the countries eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, were opened to all the subjects of Great Britain, immense advantages and wealth would be derived therefrom, the advantages of which are at pre" sent actually enjoyed by all other flags except the British; and that, as every port of this United Kingdom is equally entitled to the advantages of foreign trade, any regulations which would, in future, confine the trade of the East to the port of London, would be unjust, and contrary to those wise principles of sound policy by which this nation is governed, and a violation of the just rights of every other sea port in the kingdom; and that the petitioners are fully persuaded, that the expiration of the charter of the East India Company, in 1814, affords a promising and most fortunate opportunity of granting to the subjects of this country a relief which government has not had in its power, for many years, and which, if lost, will be attended with incalculable disappointment to the fair hopes and expectations of the country; and praying, that the House will be pleased to adopt such measures, as in their wisdom shall seem meet, in opening this most important branch of commerce to all the subjects of the nation, upon the expiration of the present existing Charter of the East India Company."
A Petition of the merchants ship owners and other inhabitants of Kingston-upon-Hull, was also presented and read; setting forth.
"That the approaching expiration of the East India Company's Charier having occupied the attention of the House, the petitioners beg leave respectfully to state their hopes and wishes on that important subject; and that the petitioners are fully persuaded, that if the trade to the British dominions in India, and to the immense and populous countries included in the Charter, were laid open to the skill, industry,
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and capital of private merchants, it would be conducted with a degree of energy and economy which a large public body is incapable of exercising, new channels of commerce would be discovered, the consumption of our manufactures extended, and our shipping increased, to the advantage of the parties concerned, and the permanent augmentation of the wealth, power, and resources of the British empire; and that the extensive and flourishing commerce of the United States of America with India and the Chinese empire, exhibits a proof, that these expectations of advantage from the exertions of private individuals are not unfounded; and they beg leave respectfully to represent, that any partial modification of the trade would, in their opinion, fall extremely short of those advantages which would accrue from the total abolition of the existing monopoly; and they do, therefore, humbly and earnestly deprecate any continuation of the Company's exclusive privilege to the commerce with China: they conceive that the British character forbids the injurious suspicion that their intercourse with the Chinese would be disturbed by a conduct deficient in discretion or propriety, whilst the Americans, and other nations, have maintained a similar intercourse without interruption: they also think, that no greater necessity for monopoly exists with a view to secure the duties on tea, than those on sugar, rum, or any other highly-taxed article of importation; and the petitioners hope and trust that no reason can be found, either in justice or in policy, for the exclusion of the out ports from the benefit of the trade with India, and situate as the town of Hull is, on a great estuary, the Humber communicating by inland navigation with the principal manufacturing districts, and with a large portion of the kingdom, they entertain no doubt that the facilities these circumstances present would enable the petitioners to engage in it with advantage to themselves and to their country; and the petitioners further humbly request, that the House will not impose any restraint on the British merchant respecting the burthen of any vessel to be employed in the trade, but leave the choice to his own judgment and discretion; and that the commercial distresses which the petitioners have, in common with the rest of the kingdom, experienced from the enormous power and influence of the enemy on the continent of Europe,

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furnish abundant reasons for applying to the House, with earnestness and with confidence, for the purpose of opening new channels of intercourse with those distant regions, where the success of his Majesty's arms, by sea and by land, has established British dominion on a permanent basis, and has secured British commerce against all danger of hostile interference; and praying the House to adopt such measures as to their wisdom shall seem meet, for granting to all his Majesty's subjects, from and after the expiration of the East India Company's Charter, a free trade to and from India and its dependencies, and to and from the empire of China."
And the said Petitions were ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION OF SAMUEL FLETCHER, BREWER, OF WESTMINSTER.
Sir Francis Burdett presented a Petition from Samuel Fletcher, brewer, maltster, and potter, Thames Bank, Westminster, which was read; setting forth,
"That the petitioner was a brewer, maltster, and potter, at Thames Bank, in the liberties of Westminster, in the parish of Saint George Hanover square; and that, in the spring of 1809, three of the Excise officers entered, and were, in the absence of the petitioner and his workmen, detected in robbing the premises; complaint was made to the surveyor, who reported them to the Board of Excise, who soon after removed him and appointed another in his stead; between this new officer, and one of the old offenders, were planned a conspiracy for the ruin of the petitioner; no less than seven informations were invented, and laid, between the 5th of October and the 29th of November 1809, the penalties of which amount to 1,000 l: had alt these accusations been true, instead of being most palpably false, the actual fraud on the revenue could not amount to one single farthing; and that the petitioner was summoned to, and, on the 26th of February, 1810, without legal form, or the benefit of judge, jury, counsel, or witnesses, tried at the Excise office, on the naked testimony of their own officers, who had made no scruple to rob the accused in open day; not only these officers, but the court, acknowledged that no fraud could be committed or intended by the first pretended offence; and, in their evidence on the second and third informations, five wilful perjuries were proved by their own officers, who were brought for
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ward to support their testimony; in the fifth two more perjuries were intended, but the charge relinquished from the dread of detection; and that the fifth was for the very common misfortune of an accidental leak in a cistern; in their evidence to the sixth and seventh information, not only are there four most gross perjuries proved on the oath of the best witnesses; but, in the nature of things, the facts they swore to are impossible to be true; yet one of the commissioners told the petitioner that the evidence was clear enough to convict him of murder, and, without allowing a reply, proceeded to levy fines for every one of these pretended offences, though no shadow of guilt appeared, to the amount of 112 l. 5s.; a Petition was next morning sent to the Board, praying for a fair trial, or further investigation; this Petition was answered in the evening of the same day, by seizing all the property, a cargo of porter intended for exportation, and all the business was stopped, though there were ten times the amount of these penalties in other property on the premises; to prevent the sale, and destruction of the goods, the penalties were all paid, and costs, reserving the right of appeal on the two last cases, the penalties on them amounting to 100 l.; and that this court of appeal, which consisted of six commissioners and counsel, and the same attorney who presided at the Excise office 6th February, met in Westminster the 23 d of May; the three informers were now again brought forward and sworn; the same man who had been concerned in the robbery (a fact he here confessed,) was here also the favourite and leading evidence; the perjury at the Excise office was confessed, and new ones committed; but, incredible as it may appear, the party accused, who was allowed a sort of defence in London in February, was not now, in a court to which he was sent to for redress in Westminster in May following, suffered to open his mouth in reply, or defence, nor yet call a single witness in his behalf; it is therefore needless to add, that the original judgment was confirmed; and the solicitor to the Excise now drew from his pocket two long bills, and presented to the appellant's attorney, being the entire expence, and that doubled, of assembling and holding their court; and that these informers, being thus encouraged and paid, they thrice attempted, between this time and the latter end of July, to renew their informations and

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punlder; their labours, however, here ended with a surcharge of 113 bushels of malt more than their own account proves to have been made; and that, on the 14th of May, 125 barrels of porter were shipped, the debenture 113 l. was in due time applied for, it was refused, and no cause was to this hour assigned; application was twice made to the Board by Petition, who pretended to refer to the officers, who declared it strong beer, and entitled to the drawback, but at last the Petitions they pretended were lost; and that a Petition was now advised to be sent to the Treasury; it was presented there at 11 o'clock 6th July, accompanied with an affidavit, proving the facts related; there it was registered, "a conspiracy of Excise officers," and refered to the Board of Excise for their reply; but, between 7 and 8 o'clock the same evening, they send an extent on the" premises, commanding to seize all the properly, and imprison the petitioner for 280 l. 3s. 10 d. which they pretend was due for duty on beer, the amount of the beer duly on the Excise books, including the strong beer duty for that exported, was 93 l. 5s. 6d. the drawback, which became due on the 15th of June, was 113 l; if this beer which their own officers declared and allowed to be exported as strong beer, was so, a fact which admits of no controversy, they having seized the property for strong beer duty, then the balance due from the Excise to the petitioner was 19 l. 4s. 6d.; but if, on the contrary, this beer could now be proved to be not strong, but table-beer, then more than 11 l. could not be due to them on that score; the affidavit, however, which accompanied the Petition, settles this point; and that, after waiting seven weeks for an answer from the Treasury, a memorial was sent there, complaining also of the new outrage of the extent; after waiting six weeks for an answer to this, a letter was written to the secretary of the Treasury, briefly staling the whole of the grievance; a note was soon after received from him, saying, that the Board of Excise had promised to make their official reportshortly; after another pause of about a month, apersonal application was made to the secretary, to request the favour of an explananation of the meaning of the word. "shortly;"a gentleman now came forward, and said, "Mr. Harrison is engaged; he desires me to say, that the Board of Excise can justify their proceedings, and "re now in search of evidence to justify
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them in withholding the payment of the drawback; a Petition was now (in August) presented to the Prince Regent, but no redress, nor even a reply, was ever obtained; in the mean time, both body and goods were, by the command of the writ (a copy of which is preserved,) doomed for four months to lay under the interdict of this barbarous inquisition, no provision made for the sustenance of man, woman, or child, nor even for the live stock on the premises, some have perished for want, some were stolen, and some sold, and the money taken by the officers; and finally, after remaining between five and six months on the premises, the effects were sold off, in one lot, for 40 l, and the lease of 62 years became forfeit to the landlord; thus is all which has been expended in this concern under the pledged security of public law, and which amounts to upwards of 5,000 l. destroyed by a species of crime the most disgusting in its nature, and terrible in its consequences, the world ever saw; and that the petitioner, being thus despoiled of his property, debarred the means of self-defence, and cut off from every hope of legal redress for the grievous injuries he has sustained, at last appeals to the House, in the hope that there is still a responsible power remaining somewhere; and that it is impossible that the persons and property of Englishmen should be wholly without the means of protection in their own country: therefore the petitioner humbly prays the House to take his case into consideration, and afford him that redress which the national honour and justice may in their wisdom appear to demand."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF ENGLAND.
Mr. Elliot.Mr. Speaker; I hold in my hand a Petition from a most respectable, most loyal, and, if honourable ancestry be an object of consideration, a very illustrious portion of his Majesty's subject.—I mean the Roman Catholics of England, who have been pleased to express a wish, that I should be the bearer of their claims to this House. It must be to them, as well as to you. Sir, and to the House, a melancholy recollection, that two years ago these claims were in the hands of one, who bad the means of doing ample justice to any cause, however great and momentous its importance.
Of those splendid talents and powerful and efficacious virtues, we are now bereft

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—by dispensations which we are not permitted to scrutinize; though, to the narrow views of human judgment, it would seem there never was a period in our history, when the country stood so much in need of such eminent and distinguished qualities, to sustain it against the awful tide of danger which is beating against it. The details of the grievances, of which the petitioners complain, will be found in the petition presented by Mr. Windham, in the year 18110; and it is not my intention, on this occasion, to expatiate at any length on the various topics which grow out of this most copious and productive subject. It may, nevertheless, be not improper for me to recal to the recollection of the House, that the Roman Catholics of England stood in a different predicament from that of any other persons of the same persuasion in any part of his Majesty's dominions. In Canada, the Roman Catholics are on the same footing with their Protestant brethren. In Ireland (I lament to say it,) there are still restrictions on the members of the Roman Catholic Church; but the Catholics of England labour under disabilities, from which their fellow subjects, of the same faith in Ireland, are exempt. The English Catholic cannot vote for a member of parliament; he is shut out of all corporations; he is inadmissible to degrees in the universities; he is not allowed to act as a magistrate; he is excluded from all offices, both civil and military, and so is incapable of serving his Majesty in any commission, either in the army or navy. This is the situation or rather this is the state of disfranchisement of persons, whose names cannot be read by Englishmen without kindling, in their breasts, emotions connected with the memory of the past achievements and ancient renown of the country. This is the predicament of the descendants of those, who, when the Roman Catholic faith was the established religion of the realm, were the roost strenous opposers of foreign influence; and who were not only the proud assertors of the external independence of the kingdom, but were among the founders of our domestic rights and liberties. This is the condition of those, whose ancestors, even in the midst of the religious feuds and animosities which succeeded the Reformation, were still admissible to the martial professions; and not only accompanied, but in some instances led our fleets and armies to battle and to victory, against invading enemies of the Catholic persuasion.
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The petitioners state, that "in affection to his majesty's sacred person and government; in zeal for the cause and welfare of the country; in detestation of the views and designs of any foreign power against the dignity of the crown, or the welfare or independence of the kingdom; the English Roman Catholics yield to no portion whatever of his Majesty's subjects." They therefore solicit, respectfully solicit. Sir, to participate in the remaining rights and privileges of the constitution, that they may be enabled more efficaciously to rally round the fortunes of the country, in this hour of its need and peril. With these views, they throw themselves with confidence on the wisdom, the policy, the justice, and I hope I may add, on the hearts and feelings of the members of this House. I propose now only to move, that the Petition do lie upon the table; not meaning, however, to deprive myself of the right of adopting further proceedings on it, in case it should hereafter appear to to me to be my duty to do so. I therefore, shall move, that the Petition be now read, previous to its being laid on the table.
The Petition was then read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners humbly beg leave to represent to the House, that, at the time of his Majesty's accession to the throne, the laws in force in this kingdom against persons professing the Roman Catholic religion were sanguinary and oppressive; and that several of these laws have been repealed by the acts of the 18th and 31st of his present Majesty, but that many are still in force against them, from the effects of which they severely suffer; and that the only ground alleged for continuing these laws in force against them is, their adherence to their religious principles; but the petitioners humbly beg leave to represent to the House, that this adherence ought not injustice to expose them to penalties or disabilities, as they hold no principle which is adverse to his Majesty's government, or the duties of good citizens; they have taken the oaths and signed the declarations prescribed in the acts which have been passed for their relief, and in them have explicitly disclaimed every principle inconsistent with their duty to their king or their country that has ever been charged upon them; and the petitioners submit to the House, that their uniform and irreproachable conduct, and particularly their refusal of those oaths, the taking of which would at once

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place them on a level with their fellow subjects, are much stronger and more decisive proofs of the integrity of their principles than can be manifested by any oath or declaration whatsoever: and that, in affection to his Majesty's sacred person and government, in zeal for the cause and welfare of the country, in detestation of the views and designs of any foreign power against the dignity of the crown, or the welfare or independence of the kingdom, the English Roman Catholics yield to no portion whatever of his Majesty's subjects; and praying, that the House will take into consideration the penalties and disabilities to which the English Roman Catholics are still subject, and grant them such relief as shall in their great wisdom be deemed expedient." Ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION FROM THE PROTESTANTS OF IRELAND IN FAVOUR OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald, knight of Kerry, rose and said:—Sir; I am charged with the Petition which is to be present ed to this House from the persons whose names are signed thereto, being Protestant land-owners in Ireland. Some circumstances that have occurred regarding it, render it necessary that I should trouble the House with a few words. I would first take the liberty of slating why it has devolved upon so insignificant an individual as myself, to present one of the most important Petitions that can be brought under the consideration of parliament. It may be known that the member for Dublin, at whose suggestion this Petition was first set on foot, was immediately afterwards obliged to leave Ireland, and it devolved upon me to undertake the task he reluctantly resigned, and to be instrumental in its progress, and I am consequently in possession of circumstances important to be known, previous to the approaching discussion of the Catholic Question. The Petition is from the Protestant proprietors of Ireland, and is perfectly unprecedented not only in amount of property, belonging to individuals, who have annexed their names at any former time to a Petition on this subject, but it is the first instance of any general application on the part of the Protestants of Ireland on behalf of their Catholic fellow-subjects. To establish the importance of the Petition, it is sufficient for me to state what, without an approach to exaggeration, I may confidently assert, that it expresses the sentiments of a decided majority of the Protestant proprietors
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of Ireland.—[Hear, hear!]—I am desirous of repeating the fact, because if it be thought that I overstate it, I am desirous to be contradicted, that I may resort to the proofs with which I am provided. I repeat, therefore, that the Petition expresses the sense of a decided majority of the Protestant proprietors of Ireland, both landed and commercial. I feel it right further to explain, that this Petition, although most respectably and numerously signed, by no means contains the names of all those Protestants who are favourable to Catholic Emancipation on principle; and I wish, with the utmost confidence in the fact, to mention the reason why the names of several who are favourable to it on principle, do not appear to this address. A great number of Protestants in Ireland did entertain a notion that it would be proper, in any Petition presented to parliament, to include conditions and securities. A large proportion, therefore, declined affixing their signatures, because it did not comprize the stipulations they required to be inserted. I wish further to state, that many of those whose names are affixed, do not desire Catholic Emancipation unconditionally; but it appears to all who have signed, that it was not a proper matter to be mentioned in a Petition, but that it ought to be left to the wisdom of parliament; there are numbers who would willingly have added their signatures, if those conditions had been inserted. Many who expressed themselves decidedly favourable to the object in view, have refused to sign it, on account of the violence of the recent differences between the Irish government and a part of the Catholic body.—I think I have now stated enough to entitle this Petition to the serious consideration of parliament. I have, however, to add, what I am sorry to be obliged to mention, that against the Petition (conducted in the most moderate manner, intentionally guarded against the slightest imputation of an attempt to agitate the public feelings) all the influence that could possibly be used by the Irish government has been directed. (Mr. W. Pole said "No, no;" very audibly across the House.) The right hon. gentleman says No; and having so asserted, I feel myself bound to go into proofs of the fact. I say again; notwithstanding this contradiction, that the influence of government has been most notoriously and indecently directed against the Petition I hold in my band, The office

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of sheriff, a place of most sacred trust, and of the utmost importance to the due distribution of justice, has been tampered with. Persons who had been promised to be made sheriffs for the ensuing year, have been set aside, because the individual recommending one of them had signed the Protestant Petition. I say, that another person who was actually understood to be appointed, did signify to the Irish government, that having also signed the Petition, he apprehended he should be deemed an improper person to fulfil the duties, as his predecessor was rendered incapable on a similar account. I know that individuals possessing public situations, I will not say directly, but indirectly, received menaces from the government, that they should forfeit their places if they favoured the Petition. I know, too, that the partizans of government have held out threats to people, if they suffered the Petition even to remain in their houses; the terrors of inflicted vengeance have been used in the most undisguised manner for the avowed purpose of defeating the Petition. Under all these circumstances it stands a proud proof of the rapidly extending liberality of the Protestants of Ireland in favour of Catholic Emancipation. It is to me an extreme gratification to state, that the most numerous signatures are obtained from the north of Ireland, the inhabitants of which are peculiarly Protestant. I am the more proud of it, because it shews a change of opinion in the only part of Ireland formerly most opposed to this measure: it is a change to be well considered by his Majesty's ministers, because it proves that the Protestants as well as Catholics are now united in the cause. I have said that it is signed very numerously; but the names are not nearly so numerous as they would have been, if the Petition had been circulated among the lower classes. In several districts the signatures only of persons of considerable property are affixed to it, a circumstance very much to be regretted; because, in a case like the present, it would have been desirable to have ascertained thus unequivocally the sense of the middle, as well as the higher order of Protestants. The persons who had the management of it were, however, desired to apply only for the signatures of persons of landed property; and although it is swelled by the names of several thousands, it is not, for this reason, of such magnitude as it would otherwise have appeared. I should remark also, that there
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are several parts of Ireland, to which, from accidental circumstances, the Petition was not sent; but where, had it been otherwise, it would have met with very extensive support. In some parts many signatures have been obtained which have not been affixed to this Petition; for, by letters I have received to day, I find that since I quilted Ireland, several copies of it have been signed most respectably in the county of Down, which is more peculiarly a Protestant district. Under these circumstances I feel myself authorized, not only to beg permission to bring this Petition up, that it may be laid upon the table, but to recommend to the House to receive it with serious attention, as containing the decided sentiments of the uninfluenced and independent part of the Protestant proprietors of Ireland.
Mr. Wellesley Pole.—Sir; after what has fallen from the right hon. gentleman, I cannot avoid offering a few observations to the House. As the right hon. gentleman has Stated that the Petition was signed by a great majority of the Protestants of Ireland, I am not disposed to dispute the assertion; but I am much surprised, notwithstanding; and it is the first time I have ever heard, that the majority of resident Protestants in Ireland were supposed to be favourable to the claims of the Catholics. I know, indeed, that great pains has been taken to promote signatures; but I can assure the right hon. gentleman, that if the zeal of the Protestants had been equally excited for a different purpose. Petitions of a very different description would be sent in from a very numerous body of the Protestants of Ireland. The statement, however, which called me up was, that the government of Ireland had interfered to obstruct the success of the Petition, and particularly, that they would not appoint a sheriff who was known to have signed the Petition. I happened to be in Ireland at the period when the idea of the Petition was first suggested at a dinner given to the friends of religious liberty in Dublin, last December, but I never heard till now of the interference of government to oppose the progress of such a Petition. On the contrary, their object throughout has been to allow the Catholics to proceed by Petition as long as they thought proper to confine themselves to that constitutional course of proceeding and also not to interfere with the Protestants in any steps they might take in favour of the Catholics, With regard to

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the appointment of a sheriff, I would be glad if the right hon. gentleman would explain the allusion he has made. I was much surprised to hear such a charge made against the noble duke, who is at the head of the Irish government; and I verily believe that no man can think it possible that the duke of Richmond would lend himself to such a purpose. I do not know what the right hon. gentleman meant by the exertions of the partizans of government against the Petition; but I know that no suggestion has been given by the Irish government to that effect; and in the county which I have the honour to represent, and where it might be natural to suppose such influence would be exerted; I appeal to my hon. colleague (Mr. Parnell) to confirm my assertion, that no such interference has been attempted. Let the right hon. gentleman then come forward, and manfully make his charge, and call for documents to prove it, instead of dealing in vague assertions, which I believe, upon the honour and conscience of a gentleman, he is not borne out; and I am persuaded that the Irish government would spurn such attempts as are ascribed to them. If I was called on to give my opinion on the subject before you, I would say that I wish the Petition to be read, and that its merits should undergo a full and fair investigation; but I do not think it fair in the right hon. gentleman to make such charges without better foundation for them.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald.—The right hon. gentleman having called on me, I name, without hesitation, the county to which I alluded, it is Carlow. I have no doubt of the fact, and I shall restate it. The nomination of sheriff had been promised to a gentleman of large fortune in that county: he had announced the promise to his friend, who took measures preparatory to his appointment, quite notorious in the county. But, on the former signing the Petition, the Castle immediately superseded the first engagement, and named the second on the list. That gentleman replied, that as he, also, had signed the Protestant Petition, government would probably consider him an unfit sheriff, and begged to decline. Government refused; but on learning that the sheriff would, if a requisition was made to him, call a county meeting on the subject, they acquiesced in his resignation; and a third person was appointed. I should be glad that an enquiry were made into these facts.
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I have also ascertained, from authority which I cannot doubt, that individual" have been threatened, by the agents of the Irish government, with the loss of their situations, if they should sign the Petition. I shall not mention their names, because that would involve them in the very danger with which they were threatened, and would invite oppression towards them. I know an instance, and could prove it, of a person extremely friendly to the measure, who had agreed to keep the Petition in his house, in a county town, during the assizes, for signatures.
On the gentleman, to whom he gave the assurance, calling on him on the following day, he said—"Sir, since I saw you, I have been threatened with the loss of my office, if I shall suffer the Petition to remain in my house." Various other instances of the most unwarrantable interference, was quite notorious in many parts of Ireland.
Mr. W Pole.—I protest I know nothing of the circumstance of the sheriff of Carlow.
Dr. Duigenan.—I maintain that the Petition has been smuggled about for signatures in" a clandestine, underhand manner. Not one-third of those who had signed it, knew any thing of its contents. I have not read it; but from the cowardly way in which it was handed about, I do not believe it contains the names of one hundredth part of the Protestant property of Ireland. It is easy for members to make assertions of matters of which they are totally ignorant. I can speak positively as to the north of Ireland, and from thence the signatures, I know, were very insignificant, those from the misguided men of the county of Down excepted.
Mr. Parnell.—The right hon. and learned doctor has stated to the House not only a correct opinion, "that it is exceedingly easy for members to make assertions of matters, of which they are wholly ignorant," but he has likewise afforded the strongest possible illustration of it in his his own speech; he having told the House in the first sentence, that he never had read or seen the Petition. The assertion, therefore, of the learned doctor, "that this Petition does not speak the sense of the majority of the Protestants of Ireland," cannot have any weight, when placed in opposition to that of the right hon. gentleman who has presented it, and who has had every opportunity of knowing the true purport of it, and on whose veracity the most implicit reliance may be placed.

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But if there existed any doubt on this point, it may easily be cleared up by looking back to the divisions in the two last Catholic Petitions, in both of which a considerable majority of Irish members voted for the prayer of them. This is in itself a decisive proof that the Protestants of Ireland are favourable to the claims of the Catholics.
In respect to what has been said by the learned doctor, as to the manner in which signatures to this Petition have been obtained, he is equally unfortunate in his inference; for, if instead of the quiet, disinterested mode, pursued by those who were the advocates of it, similar acts of energy and influence had been resorted to, to those which distinguished the enemies of it, in the place of thousands, who now appear as parties to it, the signatures of ten times their number could readily have been acquired. As to the Petition of the corporation of Dublin against the Roman Catholics, no man the least acquainted with that corporation, and the influence of government over it, by means of the dependance of most of its leading members upon the pleasure of government for the lucrative places they hold, can allow that it deserves the smallest weight whatever. Let the House recoiled lord Wellington's act for establishing a police in Dublin, and they may judge from that how far this corporation can have any claim to an independant opinion. As to any endeavours of the chief secretary to obtain from that corporation this adverse Petition, it is unfortunate for him that some how or other, his conduct, as explained by himself, is so very different from that which vulgar minds, judging from common appearances, have conceived it to be; for there certainly did exist circumstances which looked very much like an attempt on his part to controul the proceedings of this body the first time the Petition was proposed to them. But though the right hon. gentleman may himself have acted with so much discretion, as not to be personally implicated in any plan for defeating the object of the friends of the Catholics, it by no means follows that any part of the charge of the right hon. gentleman, who has presented their Petition, is unfounded; for we all know, from the history of the Union by the subsequent explanations of a noble lord opposite, how effectually the government of Ireland may wield its influence at the same time that the first minister of it may conscientiously assert he
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never abused its patronage, nor committed its faith for great popular concessions.
That the agents of government did, by their command, use every exertion to defeat the liberal and patriotic efforts of the Protestants of Ireland in favour of their Catholic countrymen, is as true, as the assertion of the right hon. gentleman who has presented their Petition, that it speaks the sentiments of a decided majority of the Protestants of Ireland.
Sir George Hill.—I deny that government interfered either one way or the other. It will be my duty to present tomorrow a Petition from the Catholics of the county and city of Londonderry, a great body of the inhabitants of which is against Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. Hutchinson.—Sir; the insinuation that the Protestants" of Ireland are unfriendly to the Catholic claims, is as un-candid, as from the Petition now presented, it appears to be wholly unfounded; and one cannot but be anxious to learn the circumstances, from which gentlemen consider that they are justified in arguing to this effect. I should be glad to know whether, from any thing lately passed in Ireland, it is fair or just, by mere conjecture and assertion in debate, to try to do away the impression which this Petition in behalf of the Roman Catholic claims, is so well calculated to produce, not only in the House, but throughout the empire. I admit, with shame and regret, that there may exist a disposition, nay, perhaps, an ardent wish, in certain quarters, to excite such an hostility; but I know not any language sufficiently strong, with which to reprobate such an object; and be it remembered, that the attempt to deny the importance of this Petition is made on a question, involving the happiness and welfare of several millions of subjects. Acquainted as I am with the history and progress of these claims, nothing can surprise me. After every foul and false charge, every serious and every futile objection, had been over and over again made and repeated, Parliament were at length gravely assured, that even the Catholics did not desire emancipation; but when this impudent and foolish assertion was about to be denied by the united Catholic voice, the refutation was sought to be proved by most unconstitutional attempts to silence that voice. And now that the Protestants of Ireland, who, for a long season, had been cruelly hallooed against the Catholics, had discovered the artifice,

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and were voluntarily rushing forward to save their common country and the empire, by declaring their readiness to renounce a monstrous monopoly, and their anxious wish to secure and enhance all their blessings, by sharing them with their countrymen.
Now, when the Protestants themselves presented the olive branch, and were for healing those wounds which a wicked policy had studiously inflicted, there were not wanting those who would prevent the accomplishment of this great and good work; and in the face of the evidence afforded by the Petition, would anxiously conceal from the parliament and the throne, the actual state of the public mind in Ireland. I will not undertake to say the exact proportion of Protestant property, represented by the signatures to this Petition; much less shall I venture to declare how particular Protestant individuals, or some Protestant districts still feel on this great question; but this I may and do assert in the most unqualified manner, that a complete change of sentiment among the Protestants, favourable to the Roman Catholic claims, has happily taken place, particularly since the Union; nor is it too much to assert, that the Protestants of Ireland are now generally friendly to that measure; nay, even anxious for its speedy accomplishment. When the infatuated, determined, hostility of the present administration to this question is considered, there cannot be a doubt, that had ministers felt there existed generally in Ireland, or in any part of that country, a hostile anti-catholic feeling, they would have done any thing in their power to have drawn forth a declaration of such sentiment: not having made the attempt proves their conviction that any such would have been vain; that is, it proves that they are well assured, that the Protestant feeling is now friendly, not hostile, to the Catholic cause.
Gentlemen seem sorely vexed and displeased, that the member for Derry should have expressed pleasure and satisfaction, when presenting this Petition; that he should have exulted in the existence of such a document, and have ventured to congratulate his country, that at length every class and sect appeared disposed to make common cause for Irish interest-that all internal feuds were about to cease—that the internal fume of 'divide et im 'pera' could no longer be played with success, where for centuries a machiave
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lean short-sighted wicked policy had" spread desolation and wretchedness. I am compelled to admit that my right hon. friend has indeed rejoiced, nay, even exulted at this happy revolution of sentiment in the Irish Protestant mind—of that crime he has been guilty, and in that of" fence I wish to be included as having fully participated; but I positively deny-that he has said one word in condemnation of any part of Ireland, much less any thing calculated to influence one district against the other. True he has stated, that even in the north, in parts of which at one period, a disposition unfriendly to the Catholics, had with great industry been excited, and kept alive; that even there, no such feeling at present manifested itself: but he has said nothing reflecting upon the north, nothing disrespectful of the Protestants, nothing to irritate, but much to appease and to harmonize in the warm expression of his heartfelt joy at the part the Protestants had taken at such a crisis; and surely every honest man must be de-lighted at the intelligence—every true Irishman disposed to exult at the bright prospect which this happy revolution of sentiment opens to his country, while every real friend to the peace, power and stability of the empire must anticipate the happiest results from such a union. They who seem disposed, at any risk, to keep alive amongst their countrymen a difference of opinion on any subject, they prove their conduct was questionable at such a moment. It had been argued as if a defiance to collect counter Petitions had been thrown out, but no such defiance had been given. Though I flatter myself that any attempt to create disunion in Ireland would now be vain—that the counter Petitions which some gentlemen seem disposed to threaten, could not be obtained, still I am little disposed to-dare any mart to the trial, for I cannot easily forget how severely my unfortunate country has suffered, and for centuries, in consequence of the too successful machinations of disturbed and angry spirits; and I am far from denying that the power, (I had hoped not the will) to do mischief still remained, though I rejoice to think that any such noxious influence is very much lessened, and thank God, is likely very speedily to become altogether inefficient. The people of Ireland are beginning to think and-to act as one man, and I caution ministers to beware how they influence, or permit to be influenced, such a population. The

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claims of the Catholics cannot be withheld; they will do wisely to consider this, and before it be too late, to conciliate those, whom they cannot much longer insult and oppress with impunity.
The Petition now presented is offered to the House of Commons as expressive of the favourable opinion. of the Protestants of Ireland on the subjecl of the Catholic claims, as far forth as that sense has been collected or declared. It is the first general appeal to parliament from this body, in approval of those claims, and there is no counter Petition. These are facts incontrovertible, which cannot be too often repeated too strongly, too confidently re-lied upon.
Sir George Hill.—I did not assert that a challenge had been thrown out to the Protestants with respect to the observations of the hon. gentleman, I can assure him that I shall always express my sentiments, whether he liked them or not; and further, that I will controvert any observation of the hon. gentleman, when I feel it necessary to do so.
The Petition was then brought up, and on the question being put that it should lie on the table,
Mr. Mauricc Fitzgeraldsaid, I am indifferent to which of the strange and contradictory accusations made by the learned doctor he adheres, because they are equally and totally unfounded. He has stated at one moment "that the Petition was carried about in an indecent canvas for signatures;" and in the next, "that it was concealed in a dark room where no one could either read its contents or see the names signed to it." The absurdity of these inconsistent charges is a sufficient refutation of them.
But, for the purpose of affording an express contradiction to what has been so confidently asserted by the learned doctor, I shall state the mode in which the Petition was conducted. The persons with whom the Petition originated, thought it right, confident as they were in the wisdom and justice of their cause, to appeal to the judgment of the Protestants in the most calm and deliberate manner. For that purpose, county and aggregate meetings were discouraged, to avoid any agitation of the public mind; and instead of a canvas for signatures, the Petition was placed in a room in the commercial buildings of Dublin, the central spot for mercantile business, and the most accessible situation in the city.
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The substance of the Petition and the place where it lay were advertised in all the newspapers; and as fast as names were obtained, they were copied in large characters and hung up in the room for public inspection. Indeed when the conductors of the Petition reckoned much on the influence of the great names signed to it, and which, on the very first instance, comprehended many of the highest in rank, in property, and in character, it was too preposterous to suppose that they had, as the learned doctor charged, concealed such signatures.
But, to settle the point, I can inform the learned doctor that I have in my possession a printed list of the first two thousand signatures which had been circulated, and that the entire of the names will be speedily published; and on that publication, I challenge an investigation in proof of what I have already stated, that the Petition has been signed by a majority of the landed and commercial Protestant property of Ireland: but on what authority did the learned doctor and his adherents make their denials to the respectability of names which the learned doctor himself declared he never had seen. If not on his own knowledge, he was merely the echo of that ribaldry and vulgar abuse-with which the hired press of the Irish government had impotently sought to suppress or impede the noble expression of Protestant liberality.
The learned doctor has also, with equal accuracy, denied that the signatures from the North of Ireland are numerous and respectable: he states, "that with the exception of some misguided men in the county of Down, no person of any wealth had signed it." Is the majority of the commercial body of Belfast and Newry deserving of that description? That class of men whose capital and spirit gives life to all the industry of the great manufacturing district, the North of Ireland? Is the commercial body of Dublin, of Waterford, and of Limerick, nothing in the scale of Irish property? Will the learned doctor, in the hearing of those-who know Ireland, call such classes "an insignificant portion of the wealth of Ireland." I therefore again assert, without the possibility of being refuted, that the majority of the landed and commercial Protestant property of Ireland is subscribed to that Petition,
Dr. Duigenan.—I maintain that the Petition was smuggled about in a clandestine

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manner. I know instances where persons who went to see it were asked first of all, if they meant to sign it? And if they declined saying whether they would or not, they were refused the perusal of it. When the names were printed, they would then know whether they did represent what they were asserted to do; but I am certain that there were many Protestants of the first eminence who reprobate Catholic Emancipation. With regard to the Protestant Petition, I know that various arts were used to obtain signatures: many shop-keepers in Dublin, whose subsistence depended upon their trade, were threatened with a general combination to ruin them, if they did not sign it. I know this could be proved.—I could mention several counties where the Petition was rejected with disdain by the grand juries; and therefore I have grounds for saying that it does not contain the majority of the commercial property of Ireland. I will mention an instance of a dissenting minister in the country, who signed the Petition, who was hunted out of his church by his congregation, and reproached with the opprobrious name of another Judas.
Mr. Craig.—I do believe that three fourths of the Protestants of Belfast are favourable to Catholic claims. As I represent a Northern city, (Carrickfergus) I know that several signatures could have been obtained, if the necessary form of a petition had been prepared; and the member for Belfast is a subscriber to the Petition.
Mr. Robert La Touche.—The right hon. doctor alluded to me and my family, as having been particularly concerned in promoting this Petition, and as if the Petition had succeded only by the agency of some of my connections. Certainly, Sir, the head of my family has signed his name first to the Petition, and although formerly in the separate state of Ireland, he was hostile to the Catholic claims, he has changed his opinion with the change of circumstances, and very much to his honour, has candidly avowed that change. He is totally unfounded in supposing that this Petition has been produced by any such agency or management. It has been most respectably signed, by persons of the utmost independence and above any influence.
Colonel Verckersaid, that a great proportion of the Protestants of Limerick was not favourable to Catholic Emancipation.
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The Petition was then read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners do most humbly petition the House in favour of their brethren and fellow subjects, the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, who apply to parliament to be admitted to the privileges and franchises of the constitution; and that the petitioners, their Protestant brethren, do consider such application to be just, and they do most heartily join the Catholics in this their loyal and reasonable request, and, convinced of its policy as well as its justice, they do most zealously implore the House to comply with the prayer of the said Petition, and to relieve the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF WATERFORD.
Sir John Newport. I have the honour of presenting to the House the Petition of the Roman Catholics of the county and city of Waterford, from a very numerous, opulent, and respectable body of his Majesty's subjects, praying to be restored to the full participation in the privileges of the constitution with their Protestant fellow subjects. Possessed of large landed and monied property, feeling their best interests intimately connected with the welfare of the state, they claim from the justice of this House a candid and dispassionate consideration of their Petition. They pray that at a crisis of unexampled danger to the empire, their efforts in its defence may not be impeded by unjust restrictions; that their tried loyalty may not be sullied by unmerited degradation; that no bar of separation may remain to alienate them from their native country, but that sharing in her dangers, they may share in her honours also.
I have peculiar pleasure in presenting this Petition, as I am enabled here to disprove, both from the magnitude of property, and the nature of its tenure, the un-warrantable assertions which have been hazarded in this House by a right hon. and learned civilian, as to the intentions entertained by the Roman Catholics of Ire-land. I know that 200,00 l. have been vested by some of the petitioners, with-in these ten years past, in the purchase of landed property, principally on those very titles which the learned doctor has accused them with a wish to subvert. It

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is impossible to furnish a more complete refutation of the learned doctor's assertions than the petitioners have done, supplying by their practice the most unanswerable commentary upon the monstrous theoretical opinions with which he has so often attempted to mislead this House.
Mr. Pole Carewcalled the right hon. baronet to order, conceiving it to be irregular to allude to former discussions.
Sir J. Newport.—I contend that I have not been out of order, as the right hon. doctor had published his speech, and sent it into general circulation, which made it public property, and of course subject to comment; especially as the Catholics of Ireland generally, and my constituents in particular, most justly complained of the unfounded, calumnious assertions contained in that publication.
Dr. Duigenan.—In any thing I said against the Roman Catholics of Ireland in any former debate, I said against the whole body, and not against those of Waterford, or any other corner of Ireland; therefore I cannot see why the right hon. baronet should have made any allusion to me. He reminds me of Harlequin in the pantomime, building up a castle of pasteboard that he might knock it down with his wand of lath; besides, it would have been more proper if the hon. gentleman reserved the eloquence of which we hear so much every night, when he shall have plenty of opportunities to answer my opinions about the Roman Catholic sect.
The Petition of the Catholics of the county and city of Waterford was then brought up, presented, read, and ordered to lie on the table. It was the same as the General Petition of the Catholics of Ireland.

GOLD COIN AND BANK NOTE AMENDAMENT BILL.
Mr. Wharton having appeared at the bar with the report of this Bill, the question being put for its being brought up,
Mr. Pole Carewexpressed his total disapprobation of the principle of the Bill, inasmuch as it would create an inducement to give more for coin than its nominal or legal value, thereby creating a crime which could not be prevented by any legislative act.
Sir Thomas Turtoncontended, that if this Bill passed into a law, it would completely do away the sacred contracts between landlords and tenants. He could see no necessity whatever for such a measure,
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and until some necessity was shewn, he could by no means give his vote in its favour. The House had heard from a noble lord (Castlereagh) that the Bill would be of considerable importance, and was in truth much wanted in the north of Ireland. He did not, however, feel disposed to lake the noble lord's ipse dixit, and should therefore wait for better evidence of the fact, before he could give it implicit credence. A committee ought to be appointed to enquire into the state of Ireland, and if they reported that such was the state of that country as to render such a Bill necessary, he should have no objection to give it his sanction. At present he could only regard it as the worst of evils, the only effect of which would be to destroy the compact between man and man, and create dissentions and disagreements which could not be too strongly-deprecated. He had heard it slated that Ireland was precisely in the same state, as far as regarded the powers of this Bill, as England This he begged leave to deny. In Ireland a special agreement was entered into by the tenant to pay his rent in specie. Would the House then dissolve these compacts? Would they, by passing this Bill, completely overthrow those customs which had so long existed, without question or inconvenience? He could not help thinking that the facility already given to paper currency had given rise to something like depreciation, and had little doubt that a one pound note and a shilling would not purchase so much as a guinea. An hon. gentleman had suggested as a nostrum for this evil, that the Bank should be suffered to regulate their own issues; that country banks should be obliged to pay their notes in specie; and that government should pay to the Bank the sum due to them by the country. He should be glad to know how these measures, if adopted, would have the desired effect? Or, how the payment of that sum would draw back to the country that coin which appeared to have totally evaporated? He was firmly persuaded that the connection between the government and the Bank was extremely ruinous; but when government attempted to legislate for them, and to give value to their notes, the consequences would be fatal. As long as the war in the peninsula continued, the country could expect to have no other coin than the pocket pieces which were at pre-sent in circulation. He did hear of a flag of truce having arrived, and of some over-tures

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having been made from France. These, he hoped, would meet with that sort of attention the state of the country required. In conclusion, he declared, that if the necessity of the measure was clearly established, he would give it his support, but otherwise he should certainly vote against it.
Mr. Taylortook a short view of the mischievous effects which had ever been experienced in all ages, and in all countries, by the substitution of a paper currency for the legal coin of the realm. He particularly instanced the consequences of this substitution in the American war, in Austria, and in France; and, drawing deductions from these examples, he strongly contended that the present Bill was highly impolitic, and likely to prove highly detrimental to the interests and welfare of the country.
Lord Folkestoneexpressed his surprise, that so many gentlemen who had expressed their opinions upon this Bill, should set out by declaring their disapprobation of its principle, and yet afterwards find some qualifying circumstance which might induce them not to withhold their assent. Such had been the tenour of the speech of the hon. gentleman who had spoken last. He perfectly agreed with the hon. gentleman who spoke first in the evening, that the Bill went to create crimes which did not offend against any moral duty, it would be utterly impossible to prevent the exchange of gold for notes at a discount. In a political point of view, so far from being considered an offence, he thought such a traffic was very desirable in the present stale of scarcity, as by there being a gold price and a paper price for things, the specie, if any remained, would be the more likely to continue in the country. The present Bill, however, only went to increase the temptation to the crime wished to be guarded against, and after it passed, guineas would be still less in circulation than ever. It was well known, that the traders in guineas in Dublin, after the passing of lord Stanhope's Bill, became more anxious in their traffic than ever, and he had no doubt the system would now be carried to a still greater extent. From the report on the table of the House, relative to the number of Bank notes discovered to be forgeries by the Bank, it appeared that for fourteen years previous to the suspension of cash payments, there had been but four cases of prosecution for forgery; whereas in the fourteen years subsequent
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thereto, the prosecutions had amounted to 471. This statement, however, he did not esteem a just criterion of the real state of facts; for, although the amount of Bank notes said to have been discovered to be forgeries amounted only to 101,000 l. he could by no means suppose, from the number of prosecutions, that that sum was in anywise proportionate to the number really in circulation. He conceived the present Bill to be perfectly nugatory. Amongst other anomalous principles which he had observed in it, was one which he thought particularly striking. It was an old mathematical axiom, that if two things were equal to one, they were equal to one another. Now, by this Bill, a Bank of England note and a shilling were mad" equal to a guinea, and the same regulation was made with respect to an Irish Bank note and a shilling, although it was well known that there was a return of discount—he knew the discount to have been equal to 10 per cent. Here, therefore, vas an inconsistency for which he could not account; it was, in fact, making the Bank of England and Bank of Ireland note of equal value; the fact, in truth, being directly otherwise.—He would not go into a detail of all the arguments which history and recent occurrences would amply furnish, upon the impolicy and ruinous tendency of a paper circulation. Examples had been afforded sufficient to induce the House to pause before they gave their sanction to a measure fraught with evils, and pregnant with the most calamitous events. Nor would he state the reasons why, from time immemorial, gold and silver had been preferred as the circulating medium of every nation. Their imperishable nature, their scarcity, every thing in fact had pointed them out as the best representatives of wealth. In addition to the political inexpediency of a paper currency, there were a variety of other reasons, equally strong, against it. Its inconvenience, its liability to accident and to forgery, rendered it peculiarly objectionable. Supposing a poor man, who had received one or two pounds for his week's wages, on his way home should get drenched in the rain—what would be the consequence? his notes, which would no doubt be consigned to his pocket, would come out a perfect pap, the numbers would be destroyed, and the fruits of his labour would be completely lost. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but such might really be the case, and such were the accidents

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constantly occurring. He knew an instance of a poor man, who had saved up a sum of money, from the fruits of his labour, which was in the shape of Bank notes, and which he had deposited in a cupboard in his room. On going to seek for it afterwards, however, he found that his notes, as well as his bread and cheese, had been eaten by the rats. The noble lord concluded by declaring his dissent from every principle of the Bill. He would propose as an amendment, "That the Report be brought up that day six months."
Mr. Simeonopposed the amendment.
Sir John Newportdeprecated the interference of the legislature in cases of this kind; as it only afforded to the ministers of the day a temporary relief from their embarrassments, and went to subvert all principles of political economy.
Mr. M'Naghtenthought it but fair that the Irish tenantry should have as much protection as the English.
Mr. Johnstonespoke against the Report being brought up. He said the Bill would be destructive of public credit; and the only difference between us and foreign nations was, that they bounded into bankruptcy in three or four years, while we should be longer in doing so; but say what ministers would, it must come to the same end at last.
Mr. Vansittart was favourable to the Report being brought up. He said, we were no doubt in a state of difficulty and embarrassment, but denied that Bank notes were at all depreciated. He believed a great majority of the House approved of the Bill, and a much greater majority of the nation; and therefore it had his hearty support.
Mr. Homer, at considerable length, opposed the general principle of the Bill. The invariable effect of legislative interference was to increase, rather than diminish the evil. The root of the evil, the excessive issue of Bank notes, ought to be struck at. The rate of exchange was now, in consequence of the measures taken by government, lower than at the time the Bullion Committee sat. He remarked upon the extraordinary coincidence, that the rise in the price of bullion exactly kept pace with the augmented issue of notes from Threadneedle-street.
A division then took place on the question that the Report be brought up, when the numbers were—Ayes 138; Noes 29. The Report was accordingly received, when
Lord A. Hamiltonproposed a clause to confine the dividend of profits to the proprietors of the Bank of England to 10 l. per cent, during the operation of the Bill. His object was that the Bank might have an interest in the recommencement of payments in specie.
This clause was opposed by Mr. Manning and Mr. Vansittart, and supported by Mr. Brougham; but it was negatived without a division.
Mr. Taylorproposed a clause to compel the Bank to employ the surplus, above 10 l. per cent, to the purchase of bullion, which was also negatived, after some important discussion.
Mr. Johnstoneproposed a clause to limit the issue of Bank notes, which was likewise negatived.—The Bill was then recommitted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed what he termed a valuable amendment, taking away from the landlord the right of ejectment after a tender of Bank notes in payment of his rent by the tenant. It was warmly opposed by Messrs. Horner, Brougham, and others, on the ground that it was a most important alteration, depriving the landlord of his only remaining remedy, and making Bank notes to all intents and purposes legal tender. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Simeon maintained a contrary position, insisting that nothing new in principle was suggested, and indeed that the alteration had been in contemplation from the commencement. The amendment was passed without a division; the Report was brought up, received, agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.