Commons Sitting of 14 April 1812

PETITIONS FROM PERTH, SHROPSHIRE, MANCHESTER, AND BLACKBURN RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
A Petition of several merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of the city of Perth, was presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners, in common with the rest of their fellow subjects, conceive that they have a right to a free trade with all parts of the British empire, under such regulations as justice and sound policy may require; and that they forbear entering into the discussion of the territorial rights of the East India Company, or the internal government of its possessions, but they humbly confide in the wisdom of the House that, on the expiry of the present Charter, the important interests of the Company will be settled on liberal and fair principles, compatible with the sanction of a free trade to India, under equitable regulations, for the general benefit of the subjects of the United Kingdom; and that the Petitioners humbly apprehend, that the natural effect of throwing open the trade to all the countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope will enable the manufacturers to exert their skill and industry with increased energy and advantage, and not only tend to relieve them under their present hardships, but also the numerous class of suffering operatives, who are, by the calamities of the times, and the tyrannical restrictions of the enemy, deprived of their ordinary means of support; and praying the House to adopt such measures on the expiry of the present Charter as may establish and confirm the sanction of a free trade to the British merchant, under suitable regulations, to the eastern parts of the world, neither cramped by unnecessary restrictions, nor fettered by exclusive monopolies, as at present, nor injured by preferences granted to neutral nations."
A Petition of the iron masters, proprietors of the principal iron works in Shropshire,
326
was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners beg leave to represent to the House, that though they are fully sensible that it is a duty incumbent upon every subject of these realms to submit, and the Petitioners are willing cheerfully to submit, to every commercial regulation and restriction by which the welfare of the state is essentially promoted, yet they apprehend, and beg leave to state, that the principle of restraining the subjects of these realms from trading with foreign nations and our distant possessions, by granting an exclusive exercise of that right to a chartered company, is so far from being essential to the welfare of the state, that it in itself is an obstacle to the increase of our commercial intercourse with those foreign nations and distant possessions; and that the principle of conducting trade with foreign nations and distant possessions, by means of a chartered company, tends to increase the price paid by them for the transport of our manufactures, and to enhance that which the Petitioners pay for their produce, and thereby, instead of being a benefit to this country, is an injury, and consequently an injustice, to both; and therefore praying, that, if possible, the exclusive Charter of the East India Company may be abolished, or that, if, from circumstances not within the knowledge of the Petitioners, it should appear to the House necessary to concede to the East India Company the exclusive privilege of trading to some particular nation situated beyond the Cape of Good Hope, such concession may be as limited as the nature of the case will admit; and the Petitioners earnestly intreat of the House so in its wisdom to protect the rights of his majesty's subjects, as that they may not be restricted from a free intercourse with our Indian possessions, nor, without absolute necessity, from trading with any of those nations which are situated beyond the Cape of Good Hope."
A Petition of several merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants, of the town of Manchester, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That, from the circumscribed state of their trade with the European continent, the Petitioners are more particularly anxious that a free intercourse may be secured to them with all the countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope on the approaching termination of the East India

327
Company's Charter; and the Petitioners beg leave most respectfully to assure the House of their firm conviction that the unrestrained exercise of that right is essentially necessary to the maintenance of the manufacturers, and to the prosperity of the commerce of the United Kingdom; and the Petitioners humbly submit, that their right to a free participation in the commerce with all the prohibited countries, on the expiration of the East India Company's present Charter, is unquestionable; and that the success of the subjects of foreign powers, in a traffic which has been denied to the Petitioners, has made them more deeply sensible of the privation, and completely proved that the trade is within the reach of individual exertion; and praying the House to adopt such measures as may, upon the expiration of the existing Charter, secure to all his majesty's subjects a free trade from any of the ports of the United Kingdom with all the countries situated to the East of the Cape of Good Hope."
A Petition of the cotton manufacturers, bleachers, and printers of the town and vicinity of Blackburn, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners presume to petition the House not to renew the East India Company's Charter, and, in doing so, they deem it their humble duty to state the causes, as briefly as the importance of the case will admit, of their objection to the exclusive privileges granted to that body; that, to deprive an individual of the free employment of his industry and capital, must tend to discourage enterprize, to repress exertion, and greatly to obstruct the progress of national prosperity: in the early stages of commerce, there might be reasons to justify exclusive monopolies to joint stock companies, the wealth of the community being low, the combination of a number of small capitals may be necessary to form a fund for an undertaking of any considerable magnitude: if the proposed object of adventurers be attended with apparent hazard, it may be wise in government to encourage such adventurers, by allowing them exclusive privileges; and on these, or similar considerations, the Petitioners presume the various privileged companies in England were first formed; of these the East India Company alone has been enabled to prolong its existence: the Petitioners will now endeavour to show, that the reasons
328
for supporting monopoly no longer exist: the capital, commercial spirit, and commercial knowledge of the British merchant are unbounded; free ports of trade to carry off the immense manufactures of the United Kingdom are very limited indeed, and, that they are by no means adequate, is most plainly shewn in the distress which pervades every manufacturing district; and that, when the East India Company's monopoly was granted, almost every port in Europe was open to the independent trader, now almost every one is shut against him; and the Petitioners submit, that it is impossible for any joint stock company to convey our manufactures into many of the ports betwixt the Cape of Good Hope and the Straits of Magellan, that would be resorted to by independent adventurers if they were permitted to make their election; and that the delays and abuses known to exist in managing the concerns of the Company, being prevented by individual attention and economy, will be the means of increasing the ability of this kingdom to undersell all others in foreign markets; but, if the Company can carry on its trade to greater advantage than the private merchant, it will reap its merited benefit by the competition, and, without competition, the Petitioners respectfully contend, that the commerce of Britain neither would have risen to its present standard, nor will it increase to bear the increasing expences of the nation; and that it is a well ascertained fact, that, during the time of the Protectorate, there were men who boldly violated the East India Company's Charter, and carried on the trade with such success, that they were able to sell the commodities of the East in the different markets of Europe on lower terms than had ever been known; and at this day, individual British merchants have traded to India with profit, even under all the difficulties, delays, and taxes imposed upon them by the Company; but the American merchants, unfettered, have embraced the favourable opportunity held out to them by the act 37 Geo. 3, c. 57, and have now deprived the Company of the advantage of supplying principally not only the continental European markets, but also those of South America, the West Indies, those in the Mediterranean, and even Malta: and that this trade, supported no doubt in part by British capital, which the law does not permit its owners to employ directly themselves, has increased

329
with unexampled rapidity, enriching the individuals engaged in it, and yearly adding to the resources of their country, whilst the English trade has become less extensive and profitable; and that, confident the House will form its decision upon this great question from a consideration of the present and not the former situation of the British dominions, the Petitioners humbly hope, that their Petition, according with the sentiments of so many respectable and deeply-interested merchants and manufacturers, will be graciously received, and that their fervent wishes may not be disappointed."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITIONS FROM STAFFORDSHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RESPECTING THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
Lord Leveson Gowerpresented a Petition from several manufacturers of china and earthenware in the Staffordshire potteries; setting forth,
"That the Staffordshire potteries, containing originally but few inhabitants, and possessing little except the rude productions of nature, have, by the skill and industry of the potters, become the seat of manufactories of national importance, giving support to a considerable population, and supplying tonnage to a great amount for the coasting trade and for inland navigation in the conveyance of raw materials, the products of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Kent, Derbyshire, and Wales, and in the transport of a bulky manufactured article; and that in time of peace, the productions of these manufactories found their way to all parts of the known world, but since the commencement of the present unexampled system of commercial warfare, they have experienced, in common with the others in the United Kingdom, the privations unavoidably produced by a total exclusion from the continent of Europe; and that restricted as the Petitioners were, by the severe prohibiting decrees of the enemy, from any participation in the continental trade of Europe, it became of the highest importance to preserve our extensive and valuable commerce with the United States of America, by every means consistent with our national honour and interest; and they humbly conceive that the Orders in Council issued in 1807, and continued in certain of their provisions in an Order of 1809, were intended to force a commercial communication with the continent of Europe from the pressure of its necessities, but instead of producing
330
that effect, they are manifestly the cause of still further curtailing our trade, by depriving us of the market of the United States of America, the only one of importance which was left open to us; and that notwithstanding the Berlin Decree our trade with the United States was as flourishing as at any former period until the Orders in Council were issued, followed by the American embargo and Non-Importation laws; and, when the Petitioners consider the naval superiority of this country, they cannot suppose it would have been interrupted by that Decree, or by any other within the power of the enemy; and that it is with the most painful anxiety the Petitioners find themselves compelled to represent the present depressed and alarming state of their trade, the number of bankruptcies is unprecedented, more than one fifth of our manufactories are unoccupied and falling to decay, and the remainder, many of which are at work on the prospect of the opening of the American market, are employed on the average to little more than half their usual extent, great numbers of workmen are without employment, and they and their families are dependent upon our daily increasing poor rates for subsistence; and praying the House to take such measures as to them shall seem meet, to relieve the distresses of the country, and to prevent the still greater calamities which the Petitioners are persuaded would result from the continuance of the Order in Council of the 26th of April 1809."
Lord Miltonpresented a Petition from several merchants and manufacturers interested in the woollen trade, and resident in the West Riding of Yorkshire; setting forth,
"That the Petitioners form a considerable portion of that description of his Majesty's subjects whose persevering industry has contributed to raise to a pre-eminent degree of wealth and greatness this their native country; and that the Petitioners are sensible of the existing national difficulties, and of the various and unjust means devised by the inveterate and subtle enemy of their country to injure and destroy their national independence, and have, therefore, borne without complaint a large portion, and are yet willing cheerfully to undergo their share, of the privations necessary to effect the national safety, but they cannot any longer refrain

331
from representing to the House the distress which they feel as a body, in a much severer degree than most of their fellow subjects, occasioned, as it appears to the Petitioners, by a perseverance in that system of commercial regulations known under the name of the British Orders in Council, adopted and pursued ever since the year 1807, and at the same time expressing to the House a doubt, which the Petitioners very sensibly feel, how those measures can tend to promote the national security, which, after so long a trial, produce nothing but ruin to the national commerce; and that their houses and warehouses are stored with goods prepared for foreign markets to which they have no access; when the ports of Europe were shut to our manufactures, they consoled themselves with the fruits of their trade to America, and since the interruptions that have happened to the extensive commerce previously carried on between that country and this, they have endeadeavoured to find markets for their goods elsewhere; but collectively their endeavours and their enterprizes prove vain and fruitless, large stocks of manufactured goods remain on hand, their capitals are locked up in commodities, for the sale of which the proper markets are shut against them, and their industry is paralized; and that the number of bankruptcies and insolvencies that have recently taken place in old commercial houses of well-established credit and extensive dealings, as well as those of lesser note, are the effect, and the evidence also, of the ruinous consequences of the British Orders in Council, for, until they were acted upon, the commercial Decrees of the French government were harmless to the Petitioners; if other evidence be needful, they appeal to the fact of the great reduction within the last four years in the number of master manufacturers in the said riding, a class of men whose active employment of a small capital, aided by their own personal skill and industry, has essentially contributed to raise and establish a competition, and a spirit of enterprize and exertion in the whole body of merchants and manufacturers which has so long secured the preference to British woollens in every foreign market, and that the distress and ruin of so many master manufacturers, added to the general stagnation of trade, have thrown out of employ great numbers of the labouring class of manufacturers, many of whom are thereby driven to seek
332
parochial relief, or to worse and more unjustifiable courses, and instead of contributing by their usual labours to the wealth of the nation, only multiply the heavy burdens and distresses to which those of the Petitioners are subjected who are not yet reduced to the same deplorable condition; and praying the House to take these facts into their most serious consideration, and adopt such measures, tending either to rescind or modify the aforesaid Orders in Council or otherwise, as the House in their wisdom shall deem best calculated to restore and preserve the trade of the United Kingdom, and in particular to open and establish our commerce with the whole continent of America."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

MOTION RESPECTING COLONEL M MAHON'S BEING APPOINTED PRIVATE SECRETARY TO THE PRINCE REGENT.
Mr. C. W. Wynnrose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of the Appointment of colonel M'Mahon to the new office of Private Secretary to his royal highness the Prince Regent. When he first gave notice of his intention to make this motion, he little thought that he should have been called upon to go into the subject in detail. He had imagined, that it was as much a motion of course as that which he had a few minutes ago submitted to the House; but he now found that it was to be resisted; on what ground it was impossible for him to conceive. He should have thought, that this was a case, which of all others rendered it necessary that the subject should be regularly before the House, that it might receive a formal and deliberate consideration. The office was a new one. There was no precedent for it in the history of the public acts of this country. Such an office might, indeed, have privately existed for a few years back, from the necessity of the case; but in the constitutional history of this country there had never been any thing like it. Under these circumstances, when such an appointment had for the first time been publicly avowed, surely it was but just and reasonable that the House of Commons should have that appointment formally before them, that they might perform their duty in examining into the matter, and expressing their opinion whether it was fitting or not that such an office should exist. He never recollected that such a motion under such circumstances

333
had been resisted. Nothing more was at present required than the production of the appointment in question. Was it becoming that this should be refused?—that they should be prevented from discussing a subject which most peculiarly called for attention in the regular and proper manner, because a minister chose to deny them the regular document? Yet certain it was, that notwithstanding the novelty of this appointment,—the uncertainty as to its exact nature and duties,—and the propriety of an examination into the matter by the House of Commons, they knew nothing more about it than what they learned from the Gazette, namely, "That colonel M'Mahon had been appointed private secretary to his royal highness the Prince Regent;" and what they heard from the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, "That the duties of the office in question were those of a private secretary." From a suggestion across the table, he understood it was to be said, that no regular appointment to this office had been made out,—that there was nothing but a Minute of Treasury for the payment of the salary. If that was really the case, it was an additional objection to the proceeding. If the office was to be constituted at all, it ought to be done in an open and public manner, that the country might at any rate have some person to whose responsibility they might look. Here, again, he might be met with the appointment of colonel Taylor: but his answer was, that the appointment of colonel Taylor was only justified by the necessity of the case. This was an entirely different matter. It could not surely be pretended that the circumstances were at all similar. But what really was this office? What was the nature of the holder's situation? Was he to be a cabinet-minister, or a mere clerk or amanuensis? From any information that had been given on the subject, he was totally at a loss to know which of them. But where was the use of such an appointment? Did the circumstances of the present times render it peculiarly necessary? Let the House only look at the history of the country. King William the third was the soul—the prime manager and mover of the confederacy existing in his reign for the preservation of the liberty of Europe. He, besides, satin his own cabinet; scrutinized every department of the state; brought every transaction under his own eye; yet king William had no private
334
secretary of this kind. When the house of Brunswick came to the throne,—when George the 1st came to this country, a stranger to our language, if at any time the appointment of such a secretary was reasonable, surely it was at that time: yet George the 1st had no such secretary. But it was hardly necessary to go farther back than the reign of his present Majesty. They all knew how he had attended to public business till the period of his unfortunate illness. He had probably paid a more rigid attention to business than any of his predecessors. No appointment, however trifling, was made without taking his pleasure upon it. From the expiration of the American war to the commencement of the present one, he had acted not only as a king but as a commander in chief; his pleasure having been always previously taken by the secretary at war upon every commission granted in the array. From the situation which he once officially held, he knew that there were in the home department several notes of his Majesty, proving how much attention he had paid to the public business; every act and appointment having been submitted to him, not nominally, but really for the purpose of his exercising a judgment upon it. Yet, amidst all this multiplicity of business, no one had ever thought of appointing a secretary of this kind to his Majesty, till the unfortunate complaint which led to the appointment of colonel Taylor. At last, then came the appointment of colonel Taylor; and they had to consider whether that formed any precedent for the present office conferred upon colonel M'Mahon. Were the circumstances the same? Every one knew they were totally different. The appointment of colonel Taylor was the consequence of, and arose from the deprivation of sight to which his Majesty was subjected. He was so blind as not to be able to read the communications of his ministers. It became necessary to provide some remedy for this inconvenience, and the appointment in question had been consequently adopted, as the most expedient plan. But it never had been imagined that this office was to be made a precedent for others of the kind, under circumstances altogether different. If ever this could have been believed, the appointment of Col. Taylor would unquestionably have been more particularly noticed: and, indeed, when the appointment was known to have been made, and

335
alluded to in that House, he recollected that there appeared to be a feeling on both sides, that since such an office had become necessary, it would have been better to have made it a public and responsible one. But this feeling was suppressed for the moment, from a regard to the wishes of his majesty, who was unwilling to expose his situation, and jealous of having his infirmity brought too much under the public eye. For this reason many of those who thought the nature of the appointment ought to have been considered by parliament, refrained from urging the matter at that time; but if they had conceived that this could have been made any ground for the present appointment, they would probably have acted differently. Where, he would again ask, was the necessity for this office? King William had no such secretary! King George the first had no such secretary! And—why had they not? Because the Secretary of State for the Home Department was the King's private secretary, and it was the business of the Secretary of State to wait on his Majesty, and take his pleasure with regard to the business of his situation. Such had been the usual course; such had been the course under his present Majesty, until the period of his malady; and even at that period, it would have been better if the Secretary of State had daily attended his Majesty, and taken his pleasure on the business of his office, without the intervention of another person. Perhaps this plan would have been followed, had it not been for the dislike which his Majesty took to his London residence. Averse to remain in a situation where his infirmity would be more exposed to public view, he resolved to reside at Windsor; so that the office to which colonel Taylor had been appointed became absolutely necessary. There was no alternative between this and the stoppage of public business, unless a new secretary of state had been appointed. But where then, was the reason for the creation of this new office at the present moment, with a salary of 2,000 l. a year? The right hon. gentleman opposite suggested that there was a great accumulation of business. But had it really accumulated so much within these few years as to require the creation of a new office, where no disability in his Royal Highness to execute that business was ever alleged? "Look at the number of commissions in the army," it was said: "consider what a labour it is even to sign them." It might be so; but
336
surely it was not intended that the private secretary should sign the Regent's name to these commissions. If the labour was really too burthensome, it might be lightened by an expedient which had at a former period been adopted. The sovereign might execute a warrant empowering the commander in chief to sign as many commissions as were to appear in the Gazette on one occasion. This had, indeed, been recommended before to his present Majesty; but for the reasons before stated, the plan had been rejected. His Majesty had been averse to do anything that might bring his infirmity more under the observation of the public than was absolutely indispensable. But where was now the reason against the adoption of this expedient? Where was the necessity for a private secretary to read to his Royal Highness the communications of his ministers? His Royal Highness resided in London,—the ministers had an opportunity of daily consultation with him. There was no need for a private secretary to communicate the result of their deliberations and their advice. He was anxious to be distinctly informed, for it was a matter of no slight importance, whether it was really to be permitted, that the communications of the cabinet council to the sovereign should pass through any third person whatever. If this was the object, then it became more particularly the duty of the House to examine into the nature and design of this appointment, and the consequences with which it was likely to be attended. He had no hesitation in saying, that it was a most unconstitutional proceeding, to allow the secrets of the council to pass through a third person; and he perhaps, no counsellor. (Hear, hear, from the Treasury bench.) He did not well know how to understand that cheering: it might perhaps be said, that colonel M'Mahon was a privy counsellor, (hear, hear). Why, then, this only made the matter so much the worse. By his secretary's oath, supposing him a mere clerk, he would be bound faithfully to read the communications to his Royal Highness, and faithfully to write whatever his Royal Highness should command. But in his character of privy counsellor, he was bound by his oath to give his advice upon what he read. He (Mr. Wynn) if he were in such a capacity should, in reading such communications, feel himself bound to give the best counsel he could upon the subject to which they referred. But was it really

337
fitting that the cabinet ministers should have their advice to their sovereign subject to the revision of his private secretary. If, indeed, it were acknowledged to be consistent with the constitution of this country, to have both an interior and exterior cabinet, he could understand why there should be a fourth secretary to carry the communications from one to the other. If it were constitutional for the sovereign to have both an open ministry and a private junta to carry on the government, such a secretary might be necessary to conduct the correspondence between these two bodies. If it were once allowed to be regular for a general officer, returning from an important expedition, and retiring from a situation of great responsibility, to give in a private report to the sovereign with a request not to shew it to his open advisers, then, indeed, there must be a private secretary of this kind. If it was regular that the high offices of the household should be hawked about, by the menial servants and attendants of the crown—as it was possible they might be on some occasions—then he could conceive the use of such an office as this; though, even then, he was satisfied there ought to be a regular and formal appointment, that the officer might be responsible. This was a most important view of the subject, and one which deserved the most serious attention of the House.
If the time at which the advisers of the crown had chosen to recommend this illegal step were contemplated, it would be found equally obnoxious. He would not now enlarge on the present distresses of the country, (on which nearly all could speak with feeling, because nearly all felt,) not because he feared the imputation that he was attempting to excite discontent, but because it was not called for. He despised popular clamour as much as any man, but he entertained great respect for public opinion, and public opinion declared that at this period, least of all, should any addition be made to the vast expenditure of the country. Colonel M'Mahon in the first instance, was named to an office, the abolition of which, a Committee of the House had strongly recommended, and when parliament decided that he should not retain it, the ingenuity of government had been directed to discover a new office, at least objectionable in the next degree. What would the public say of this but that a determination was evinced to create a place in order to compensate
338
Col. M'Mahon for that of which he had been deprived in obedience to the sense of parliament? He would not enter into the nature of the services of Col. M'Mahon; it was doubtless proper that they should be rewarded, but were the places in the household of the Regent caught at with such rapacious greediness that nothing could be saved for a faithful servant? Would not the privy purse suffice, or if the salary were inadequate, could not the place of equerry be subjoined? If both together were not sufficient, surely other situations might have been discovered to fill up the measure of reward. He was quite at a loss to imagine, on what solitary ground this appointment was rested, since it was neither authorized by the constitution, nor justified by necessity. The Prince Regent, with all the active vigour of youth, and with none of the infirmities of his father, could require no such assistance as ministers seemed anxious to force upon him. He would rather have deferred these remarks until the paper was laid upon the table, but since his motion was to be resisted, he wished to point out the danger that would be incurred in such an attempt. He concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House a copy of any Instrument, by which the right hon. John M'Mahon has been appointed Private Secretary to the Prince Regent in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty. Also for a copy of any Minute of the Board of Treasury thereon, directing the payment of the salary attached to the same."
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the hon. gentleman had raised this question to a degree of importance which could in no view belong to it. The hon. gentleman was not justified in describing the motion as one which it was the intention of ministers to resist, as his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), had said, that he had no objection to the production of the document in question; but that the grounds on which those documents were sought for, formed the objection to their production. For, if the object of the motion was to ground an impeachment of the appointment upon them, without any view to the instrument under which it was made, further than the production of it, he should certainly resist it, as he conceived that appointment necessary, under the circumstances which gave rise to it. The mere minute of the Treasury which constituted the appointment could not be necessary

339
towards enabling the House to form any judgment on the propriety or impropriety of the appointment, but was moved for only to found upon it a charge of crimination on the office itself, and to persuade the House to take the necessary grounds against the continuance of it. As the hon. gentleman however, had thought fit to bring the question before the House, it behoved ministers to submit the grounds upon which they conceived the appointment stood with relation to the offices which they held under the crown. It was certainly the duty of the sovereign to take advice from the officers of the crown, for which advice they were entirely responsible; and he was perfectly prepared to concede the question, if there was any circumstance attached to the nature of this appointment, which detracted in the slightest degree from the responsibility of the ministers of the crown. If that case were made out by the hon. gentleman, it was enough, and he should withdraw all opposition.—But the fact was, that the functions of this office had nothing in them which required responsibility; and he now declared to the House, that colonel M'Mahon was incapable of receiving his Royal Highness's commands in the constitutional sense of the words, or of carrying them into effect—and that the individuals now exercising the functions of the ministers of the crown were alone responsible.—With respect to the nature of the appointment, he conceived that a Treasury minute was as effectual as a patent or any other; and as to the oath of office as a privy counsellor being so extensive in its nature, as represented by the hon. gentleman, he was not prepared to argue that point, but he conceived it was a new species of objection, and if pushed to the full extent, this obligation would bind a privy counsellor to obtrude his advice, not only upon occasions which fell within the line of his duty, but on any casual knowledge of circumstances, however foreign from it.—He next came to consider the nature of the appointment, which was precisely the same as that of any other private secretary, in any other office of the state, differing only in the rank of the personage under whom the office was held. Was there any more formal appointments of other private secretaries, and yet their functions were as important and as confidential? Was there any form of oath prescribed to any of those private secretaries, through whose hands the same papers passed, that would
340
pass through those of colonel M'Mahon? And yet no alarm existed on their account. It was unfounded then to represent this appointment as that of a fourth secretary of state; for it was merely furnishing his Royal Highness with the means of performing those duties, which he was unable to administer himself; and he begged the House to understand, that he considered this office only as an instrument for carrying on the business of the country; which brought him to the second part of his argument, whether this appointment was necessary to enable the person exercising the sovereign authority, to perform the functions of his high office; for he now supposed the appointment to be divested of all responsibility, for without that there would be nothing to justify it in the view of parliament. He was not much convinced of the solidity of that part of the hon. gentleman's argument which referred to the reigns of king William, and of kings George the 1st and 2nd, nor did he think that the House would see much analogy between those periods and the present. For his own part he was perfectly prepared to admit, in the face of the House, that he could not, by possibility, transact all the business attached to the office he held (and he was not disposed to neglect it), without some assistance. He was bound to attend that House from day day, and he would find it impossible to carry on the functions of his situation, if he were bound to have personal access to the sovereign every time that his orders were necessary to give effect to acts of state. But when the hon. gentleman talked of the reigns of William, and George the 1st and 2nd, the circumstances of the country were wholly different from the present. The army, at those periods, was a pigmy army, compared to that now existing; and the navy (though of a most respectable character) was of a different description altogether from the navy of the present day. The whole country was not armed as it now was, acting under commissions signed by the sovereign, and the whole sphere of business was more contracted. He could perfectly understand then that a sovereign in perfect possession of his health and faculties could discharge all the duties which were imposed on him by his office; and, besides, he believed the hon. gentleman would do him the justice to say, that ministers in those days were not in the habit of such constant attendance of parliament, night after night,

341
as at present. But he only asked, whether the precedents were not wholly dissimilar, on a reference to the different departments of the army and navy, and even to the home department, with the business of which the hon. mover must be well acquainted? And under such circumstances, he put it to the hon. gentleman and to the House, whether it was possible for the sovereign of this country to go on, burthened and overwhelmed as he must be by the public documents that were heaped upon him, and scarcely able to disengage his person from the accumulating pile with which he was surrounded? Even though his Royal Highness were to lower himself to the office of a private secretary, to the neglect of more important functions, it would be utterly impossible for him to do without such an officer. The necessity of the appointment, seemed to him to be fully proved, and the question was thus disengaged on two points from the objections raised against it. With regard to the creation of the office of private secretary, it was said, that it had never taken place until his Majesty's eyes were affected; but really the House would go on a very unsound principle, if they assumed that every person who should exercise the sovereign authority in this country was likely to be possessed of the extraordinary habits of his Majesty—which were all formed on the model of business—all his hours were devoted to this object, and the whole of his life occupied in it. He always rose uncommonly early, and had acquired such habits of business as could hardly be expected from every sovereign who should come to the throne of this country; but notwithstanding this extraordinary faculty for business, he did not believe that even his Majesty could have been able, without some assistance of this sort, to go through so much as the sovereign had now to perform. On the whole view then (particularly on that which related to the responsibility of the office, which he distinctly denied) there was no ground for the objections taken to it, and he hoped that the House would see that the constitution had not been trenched on; that the appointment had been rendered necessary by the increase of business; and if they concurred in these two points, the third would follow, that there existed no necessity for calling for the minutes, with a view to cast any censure on the appointment. For these reasons, and not from any objection to the production of the
342
paper, which was nothing more than a grant of 2,000 l. a year as a salary, he felt it his duty to oppose the motion.
Mr. Elliotsaid, that whatever opinion he entertained of the new appointment which was under the discussion of the House, he felt that with respect to the illustrious personage who had been advised to make it, it was natural for him to feel a wish to reward a tried and faithful servant—for a faithful servant was a faithful friend, and fidelity in attachment was in all classes of life a distinguished virtue, nor was there any quality which tended more to exalt and elevate the character of a prince, than an adherence to those who had displayed towards him a tried and steady attachment. (Loud cries of Hear from the Opposition benches.)—But there was a marked distinction between the appointment of colonel Taylor and that of colonel M'Mahon, for in the former instance his Majesty had never called for the assistance of a private secretary until he was obliged to it, by his infirmities, whereas the illustrious personage in question was happily free from any thing of the kind. Colonel Taylor had been literally the hands and eyes of his Majesty; and to his everlasting honour be it said, that he discharged the duties of his office with such integrity, prudence, and reserve, as to shield himself against the shadow of reproach. If the ministers were incompetent to execute the duties assigned them, he was willing to afford them assistance, and, if necessary, he would consent that a fourth secretary of state should be established, even in a seat in parliament. But such a case of necessity had not yet been made out. If merely the arrangement of papers in boxes was to be the duty of the private secretary, it would not require that he should be a privy counsellor, or that his salary should be 2,000 l. a year; because princes were always surrounded by those who could perform mere clerical avocations. The place, however, was of much greater consequence: colonel M'Mahon was a privy counsellor, whose bounden duty it was to advise the crown, and for such advice he was responsible, and might be called to an account. He admitted that the nomination of colonel Taylor was, in the first instance, improper, but the House was governed by a feeling of delicacy for the infirmity of a sovereign, which arose from his unceasing attention to his public duties. (Hear, from the Treasury benches.)—That cheer,

343
however, proceeding from the quarter which it did, should be a lesson to the House; because it showed how that which was originally justified only by necessity, and sheltered by delicacy, was likely to grow into a habit at once dangerous and unconstitutional.—His noble friend (lord Castlereagh), seemed to state, that the private secretary was not a sworn adviser of the crown: but he maintained that he was, and he became so legally and constitutionally, and in the eyes of the law responsible for the contents of every paper laid before the Prince Regent, and he should know that it was so—he was liable, for what he knew, to an impeachment.—He knew it might be stated, that there were situations under the different officers of state which were not gazetted, but these were under responsible persons. The secretary for Ireland was answerable to the lord lieutenant, and the lord lieutenant was accountable to the country. But here was a new secretary—a new official channel of command of the executive government of the country. The meaning of the word "secretary," was a person who managed and wrote for another, and, under this definition, the private secretary of the Prince was the organ of the royal pleasure. The office was then either a public official one or not—if it were the former, let the person who held it be appointed a secretary of state; if the latter, let him not be a privy counsellor, nor have a salary of 2,000 l. a-year. Under the present circumstances, it was an appointment in his view of the subject unconstitutional, unnecessary, and therefore inexpedient.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the question could be considered only in two points of view, either as the office brought under their consideration was illegal, or as it was inexpedient. Before, however, he proceeded to offer his opinions to the House upon those two divisions of the question, he should advert to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman who spoke last. He had advanced, if not in precise language, at least in well understood insinuation, a doctrine altogether extraordinary, and, he would say, unconstitutional. If he understood his meaning at all, he believed him to assert, that it was a great and eminent virtue in a monarch to be influenced in the choice of his public officers, by the remembrance of past attachments, that the feelings which that remembrance might be supposed to excite,
344
could not err when they led to the appointment of men who were their object, to high and public stations. This was what he understood to be implied in the hon. gentleman's eulogy upon the fidelity of friends to former attachments, and he was borne out in his opinion, he apprehended, by the cheers with which the expression of the sentiment was received on the other side of the House. But, was it possible that any person could stand up in that House and say that private attachment ought to be the criterion by which a king should estimate the qualifications of his ministers, and not from considerations of the public interests of the state?—Was that the meaning of the hon. gentleman? Did he mean to say, that the monarch should be the head of a party instead of the impartial guardian of the welfare of his country? Would he insinuate such a doctrine? If he would, then he insinuated a doctrine more unconstitutional, more breathing the spirit of aristocratical confederacy, more extraordinary and unjustifiable than any he ever heard advanced in that House. If he did not mean that; if he had no such views; if his mind had no leaning towards recent events; if he had no allusion, at the moment to the disappointment of persons who had been distinguished as the friends and companions of the Prince, more than his present advisers had been, then he should be ready to apologize for his misconception of him; but he apprehended it would be difficult for those who cheered the sentiment so warmly, to prove that that was not the meaning of the hon. gentleman, or that it was not their interpretation of it.
But to proceed to the question they then had to consider, a question that had been brought before them, in his opinion, with a great deal of unnecessary pomp and importance. The renowned champions of constitutional principles, the great advocates of constitutional rights, were eager to declare and vehement to maintain—What?—that the King should not have a private secretary! that the head of the executive government should not be relieved from that manual and bodily labour which any other person in the kingdom, having only half as much to do, would certainly be! that was the great object they now had to consider. In furtherance of that object, the instrument by which col. M'Mahon had been appointed private secretary to the Prince Regent, was moved for merely to ground upon it a Censure of the appointment

345
itself, or a declaration of its inutility. He saw, indeed, no occasion for the production of those papers, for they would tell no more than what the House already knew. If they specified the precise duties which col. M'Mahon had to perform; if they pointed out what he was to read and what he was not, what he was to write and what he was not; if they contained that kind of specification, then there might be some grounds for their production; but they contained none of those particulars; they contained simply a notification that colonel M'Mahon was appointed private secretary to his royal highness the Prince Regent. They who had any ulterior views, they who thought the instrument illegal, would of course vote for the production of the papers; but they who had no such views, nor such opinion as to the legality of the instrument, would take an opposite course. The proper mode of proceeding, in his apprehension, was to debate the point of its illegality or unconstitutionality, and its expediency; for when it had been shewn, as he believed there would be no difficulty in shewing, that the appointment was not illegal, it might still remain questionable as to its necessity.
He was at a loss to conceive how any person could regard the act as illegal and unconstitutional. Was it contended that the crown had no power to create a new office? If it was, he would refer those gentlemen who entertained such an opinion, to the statute book for proofs that such a power was constitutionally vested m the chief magistrate of this country. The statute of queen Anne recognized new offices appointed by the crown, but only disqualified the holders from seats in parliament. But he denied that it was a new office in the strict and literal sense of the word. The situation which colonel Taylor held about his Majesty, was one exactly similar to that held by colonel M'Mahon; it was just as new to the constitution, and if the one was illegal they both were. At the time of that appointment, however, there were no serious objections to it. Every party, in their turn, had made use of the instrumentality of colonel Taylor, without then finding out that it was illegal or unconstitutional. Those who first agreed to his appointment, and the hon. gentlemen who now sat on the other side, might, when they were in power, have brought this appointment, before parliament for their sanction,
346
and thus have made it constitutional. None of them, however, at that time, appeared to have any such scruples upon the subject as had now been urged. The right hon. gentleman who had last spoken, said, that the private secretary of the Regent was the organ of his pleasure to all his subjects. This was fine language; but in what respect could he be called the organ of his pleasure? That mode of argument might apply to the writing of an ordinary note upon any ordinary occasion, in the Prince Regent's name, and which might equally be considered as communicating his Royal Highness's pleasure. But when we talked of the King's pleasure, it was customary to understand it as signifying his approbation or disapprobation of any state act: now, in that meaning of the phrase, he denied that colonel M'Mahon was competent to communicate the pleasure of the Prince Regent in any way that could authorize any subject in the land to attend to it, or to act upon it with official responsibility. He begged the House distinctly to remember, that it was no state office, but simply an appointment to relieve the bodily and manual labour which by the prodigious influx of public business attached to the functions of the head of the executive government. To the necessity of such an office, in the present state of the country, he should now beg leave to call the attention of the House; and here he hoped he should be able to satisfy these who heard him of the expediency of the appointment. The detail of the innumerable papers from various offices—the numberless acts which it was necessary to submit to the Prince Regent for his approbation or for his signature, some of them very urgent, and consequently to be presented as such, some less so, and hence to be disposed of in another manner—together with the manual labour attendant upon all those duties—formed a continuance of exertion which certainly required to be relieved in some way or other. The very arrangement of the mass of communications submitted to the royal attention, was in itself a labour which required the employment of a secretary, while it greatly facilitated the dispatch of public business by the person at the head of the government. It had been said that his Majesty discharged all that labour for five and forty years without any such relief, and that when he did have it, it was from a calamitous necessity which did not exist with

347
regard to the Prince Regent. His Majesty certainly did transact the public business without the assistance of a private secretary, and he did it to the astonishment of every one who was able to witness it: but while we did honour to the laborious activity and sedulous diligence of George 3, we should remember some discriminating circumstances between him and the exalted personage who now exercised the sovereign authority. The King came to the throne at a very youthful period of his life, and was early trained to those habits of business which accommodated themselves gradually to the gradual increase of labour which every year of his reign produced. In him it progressively became a task of comparative ease; but the Prince Regent entering upon the laborious details of government at a much more advanced stage of life, it could not be expected that he should possess those facilities in transacting public business, or that severe application to them which was the result of early habit in his royal father, and he would be overwhelmed at once by the mass of business which must come before him, were it not for the assistance of a secretary in the minor details of arrangement:—looking, therefore, at that part of the question alone, without adverting to the enormous increase of duties annexed to the functions of the sovereign, arising from the present state of the country, he could not but consider the present motion as the most extraordinary one that was ever brought before that House. It seemed to him to betray deep marks of a disposition to complain in the absence of all grounds of complaint—a determination to find grievances where none existed; but, he thought at the same time, that it displayed a miserable poverty of invention. When the hon. gentleman informed him some time ago in private, that he meant to bring the question before the House, he had told the hon. gentleman, that he should always wish his political opponents to choose such weak grounds of attack. Great pomp and solemnity had accompanied its whole progress to the present moment. A month or six weeks ago notice was given by the hon. member of a motion upon a most important constitutional question. Expectation was excited—the day arrived, and, lo! they were to decide whether the Prince Regent was to have a private secretary! Really he thought it a subject hardly to be viewed with that solemnity which the hon. member
348
wished to attach to it; he thought it was brought forward rather for party views—rather for the purposes of misrepresentation than any other. It was to persuade the country that colonel M'Mahon would be the organ of communication between that cabinet behind the throne, of which so much had been said, and the official servants of the crown. He was to be represented as the channel through which would flow that stream of secret influence, of unseen power by which the subordinate agents of governments were supposed to be directed. But, did any body believe all that? Such commonplace declamation might serve very well to turn a paragraph in a newspaper, in order to keep alive an impression unfavourable to government, but was hardly worthy of serious refutation: it was very well, to be sure, that it should be used by those who thought the Prince Regent's pleasure could not be properly communicated, because they were not the objects of it. He was afraid that he had troubled the Mouse too long upon a case which really appeared so extremely plain; but he trusted he had said enough to shew, that the subject of the present question was not of that grave nature which had been represented; and that the appointment of colonel M'Mahon as private secretary was neither unlawful nor inexpedient, unless the House were prepared to make the Prince Regent one of the greatest slaves in his own dominions.
Mr. Elliot, in explanation, denied having used the expressions respecting the private attachments of the sovereign with the reference imputed to him by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Ponsonbythought the right hon. gentleman was perfectly right in making a speech for the hon. member (Mr. Elliot), in order that he might be able to answer it in his own way. The fact was, that the hon. member referred to, had never alluded to any sovereign, in particular, who chose the public servants of the crown merely from feelings of private friendship; and for his own part he hoped that no king of England in the present or in future times could be found capable of choosing his ministers solely on account of private services or private friendship. The Prince Regent, he felt assured, was above any such temptation; and he believed that any person offering such advice, poisoning his ear with such doctrines, would receive a contemptuous dismissal from his royal

349
presence as a reward for his pernicious sentiments. The right hon. gentleman himself was a proof that his Royal Highness was incapable of acting from motives of that description, for he had never heard that the right hon. gentleman aspired to the honour of being the early friend or companion of the Prince.
With regard to the legality or illegality of the office under discussion, neither the hon. mover of the question, nor the hon. member who spoke on the same side, had "aid any thing respecting it: but for himself, he should like to know who could give a positive opinion upon the one or the other, upon its illegality or its unconstitutionality, without more knowledge than the House yet possessed? If the right hon. gentleman would give them sufficient evidence upon all those particulars relating to that appointment which it was material the House should have, then they would be able to form a fit conclusion; but were they to come to a decision upon the propriety of the office, merely upon the assertions of the right hon. gentleman that it was expedient, that it was not new, that it was not illegal, and that it was not unconstitutional? If, however, they were to come to any decision upon those assertions, his decision would be, that the office, from the right hon. gentleman's description of it, was, most probably, unconstitutional, if not illegal. For what did he say, "that colonel M'Mahon was to communicate the answers of the Prince Regent to the high officers of the government upon all matters submitted by them to his Royal Highness." If it was so, then he was prepared to say, that it would soon be found that the private secretary of the Prince Regent had become the prime minister of England. The case had been paralleled with colonel Taylor's appointment, and the right hon. gentleman had insinuated his surprize at the supineness of parliament in letting it pass unnoticed at the time. He could tell him why it had passed so unnoticed. Besides the severe calamity which rendered that appointment necessary, there were sanguine hopes entertained of his Majesty's recovery, and it was understood that nothing would be more likely to hurt his feelings, in the event of such recovery, than to hear that any public enquiry had taken place as to his right to the assistance of col. Taylor. And was it the rt. hon. gent, who had been so long employed under his Majesty, who complained that steps had not been taken to question that appointment!
350
But the House had also been told, that the business of the state had so increased, that it was impossible for any king to discharge it, without the subordinate services of a private secretary. This he confessed was something new. His Majesty discharged that business for five and forty years without such services. "Aye," said the right hon. gentleman, "that is true; but then the King came to the throne at a very early age, and habits of application became gradually formed in him, and besides, the public business was then much less than it is now." Was there indeed little to do at his Majesty's accession? Did he not succeed to the throne in the middle of the seven year's war, and at a period when the foreign correspondence of the country was not only equal, but five times greater than at the present moment? Yet his Majesty (unquestionably the most diligent sovereign the country ever possessed) discharged all the duties connected with his station in person, unassisted, and alone. What however was to be inferred from the argument of the necessity of the appointment? Why, that it was to be perpetual, that it was to be a permanent office. Every future sovereign might claim the same privilege, if the precedent were established; and in that case, if such an officer was to carry on all the confidential communications between the King and his ministers, it became additionally important that parliament should interfere, and see that proper guards, and a proper degree of controul and security were provided for the execution of the office. In support of the necessity of this, he would beg the House to look a little to the future. We were not always to suppose that a prince would succeed to the throne in the same maturity of age as the present ruler; we might have, at no very distant day, a female there, totally inexperienced in public affairs; we might have a monarch whose debilitated frame would render assistance of that kind dangerous, or one whose love of indolence, whose abhorrence of public duty, would dispose him equally to employ it: what then? Would that private secretary have no influence upon the government, under such circumstances? Was it not likely that the sovereign would sometimes lean upon the suggestions, or the opinions of that secretary? It was not in the course of human affairs; it was not in the nature of things but that such an officer must be an efficient and powerful instrument in the administration.

351
It became, therefore, the duty of parliament to enquire rigidly into the nature and the duties of an office so replete with danger to the constitution.
The right hon. gentleman talked about exterior and interior cabinets, and described the sentiments of those who maintained their existence, as a sort of political opposition cant; as the discontented cry of gentlemen out of office who would be very glad to get in. All that might be true with regard to the present moment; but, would he pretend to say, looking into the history of the last century, that no such secret influence had existed in this country; would he affirm that ministers had always acted free from the influence, free from the secret wishes of an interior cabinet? He believed the right hon. gentleman would not say that, for he knew it was not the truth: he knew that there had been such unseen influence, and that there might be again an interior and an exterior cabinet. With such a conviction on his mind, he felt justified in calling upon the House to support the motion of his hon. friend; he wished to see the authority under which colonel M'Mahon acted; he wished to know what were his duties, what his responsibility, what the precise nature of his office. He was aware that the Treasury minute would shew that he was to have 2,000 l. a year; but he wanted to ascertain what instructions he received—under what patent or other instrument he acted. The more the House looked at the question, the more, he was convinced, they must feel its importance, notwithstanding the levity with which the right hon. gentleman had treated it—a levity which, he really believed, in his sober judgment he disclaimed. For himself, he condemned the appointment prima facie; but before he condemned it by his vote, he should like to have some better evidence before him. He should like to know precisely for what purposes colonel M'Mahon was appointed. Not, surely, as the noble lord had stated (Castlereagh), that his Royal Highness might not be suffocated beneath piles of papers, unable to move from under them. He should, indeed, be sorry at such an event; but if that were the danger that was to be avoided, he feared the appointment would not answer all its purposes—for if his Royal Highness was not an Atlas, his private secretary was certainly not a Hercules, and, like a favourite cat, drowned in a bowl of milk, we should, perhaps, see colonel
352
M'Mahon's death announced, suffocated under reams of official paper. He begged pardon of the House for imitating the levity of the right hon. gentleman, and concluded by declaring, that his vote should be given for the production of the documents moved for. In the event of their production, it would be for the House to consider what further steps ought to be taken.
Mr. Secretary Ryderobserved, that the more the House heard of this business the more they must feel surprised that his hon. friend (Mr. Wynn), after reflection, had persisted in his motion. He was anxious to rescue his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) from that species of misconstruction which had been too frequently practised on the opposite side of the House—he alluded to the assertion made by the right hon. gentleman who had spoken last, that his right hon. friend had invented a speech in order to have an opportunity of answering it.—The only proof of this invention which had been adduced was, a statement that his hon. friend had imputed to the gentleman on the other side of the House, the use of the words "illegal and unconstitutional," when no such words had been uttered. He believed that his right hon. friend was perfectly correct in asserting, that the hon. mover of the question had described the office as illegal—[Mr. Wynn said. No! No! across the table].—The hon. gentleman said he had not used the assertion, and he had no doubt he was right; however, it was of little import, whether the word illegal or unconstitutional was used, for that which was unconstitutional could not be legal.—He did not, however, believe, that one constitutional principle had been violated by the appointment in question. If his Majesty had not been afflicted with his present calamity, notwithstanding all the advantages he possessed, from the immense accumulation of business since the year 1805, it would have been impossible for him to have executed his functions without that species of accommodation which had been afforded his royal highness the Prince Regent, by the appointment of col. M'Mahon.
Mr. Lambthought that the House must agree to the motion, for the purpose of passing a censure upon the appointment, and of reversing it, unless every thing that was constitutional was to be given up to the mere purposes of convenience. All the original objections to the office not alone remain unanswered, but had been

353
considerably strengthened. The nomination of colonel Taylor had nothing in it similar, he thought, to that of colonel M'Mahon; the former was rendered necessary, if he might so express himself, by the hand of God; and it could not therefore form a precedent for the case then before the House. The impropriety of that case he had not heard refuted; he had heard levity indeed, and a good deal of unsuitable indignation: but they did not seem to suit that æra of Lacedemonian virtue, upon which he hoped to see both sides of the House act. As to the increased public business, which had been assigned as the cause of that appointment, that did not fall upon the King, but upon the servants of the crown, and sorely with all the assistance which they derived in their several departments, they might so arrange the papers which had to receive his Majesty's final sanction, as to render it unnecessary that they should go through the hands of a private secretary. It was impossible to surmise to what extent such an office might lead; or how far ministers might surrender their right of access to the sovereign, when an intermediate channel of communication was interposed. It was said that the office was not a state one; but who knew how soon it might become such? or how soon a king might sit upon the throne, who would delegate to his private secretary what ought to be the peculiar functions of the chief magistrate? Might not an indolent monarch, one disinclined to public business, hand over to that secretary an unread paper, and bid him answer it according to his own judgment? When the evils which might spring from such a source were contemplated, he would ask the House if they could be induced to sanction such an appointment? Viewing the question therefore as one of great importance, he should vote in support of the motion.
Mr. Calcraftdeclared his readiness to look at this question in every point of view, but that he was utterly unable to see any thing of that alarming nature, or of those dangerous consequences apprehended by his hon. friends. He had often heard that to be placed at the head of the government was a situation of great labour and hardship; but it would indeed be a situation of hardship if the sovereign was to be denied that assistance which was possessed by every one of his ministers. He was surprised to hear alarm carried to such an extravagant length as to suppose
354
that colonel M'Mahon might become the real prime minister. Had they not seen colonel Taylor holding the same office, and exercising the same functions for seven years without any danger to the state, or injury to its interest? Had they seen him usurp any of the kingly powers, or endanger any of the royal authorities? No—but now that another person was introduced to the same office, and that the Prince Regent sat on the throne, all these magnified and imaginary perils were brought in dreadful array before them. He begged the House to pause and look at the question through the medium of common sense. What was col. M'Mahon to do, but what col. Taylor had done before? The business of col. M'Mahon, as secretary, was to examine and transmit papers; and was it possible in the multiplicity of affairs that pressed on government at present, that any monarch could act without some such assistance? The secretaries of state had their private secretaries, and could it be fairly called unconstitutional, because king William and king George the 1st and king George the 2nd did not require such an officer, when the fatigues of the sovereign were comparatively so trifling? If the Prince should be ill advised, there were responsible persons, but he could not consider it consistent with the nature of his office in a private secretary to give advice to his master. He thought that an importance was attached to the subject much greater than it deserved, and as the motion was evidently intended to censure and reverse the appointment which he deemed useful and indispensable, he should vote against it.
Mr. Whitbread.—Sir, this is a new æra indeed. This it seems is a period when early friendships come to be naturally sacrificed. If on entering this House I had happened to hear the voice of my honourable friend who has just sat down, I would have hazarded any wager that he was raising it in support of the motion. I am sorry to find this difference of opinion among early political friends. Sir, he has arraigned my honourable friend for making this motion, a motion which the right hon. gentleman opposite has declared, and certainly his manner corresponded with his declaration, he felt sincere satisfaction at seeing brought forward.—The appointment of colonel Taylor has been quoted in defence of the appointment of colonel M'Mahon, and unquestionably it is true that the former appointment was highly

355
objectionable. But if a feeling of tenderness was indulged on that occasion, if a forbearance arising out of peculiar circumstances was then acquiesced in, I certainly should not have expected that my hon. friend, who sympathized in that tenderness, and was present at that acquiescence, would now endeavour to derive thence any precedent hostile to the motion of my hon. friend. The time has, however, arrived, when all former predilections are to cease to be indulged, though I am yet glad to find that he who was a strong friend, is not likely to prove a formidable enemy. Like the noble lord who appeared to me always to speak best when most distantly removed from the Treasury bench, I think I never heard my hon. friend reason so weakly as on the present occasion. He has confounded the identity of the cases of col. Taylor and col. M'Mahon. Does he forget that colonel Taylor was not a member of the privy council? That he was not a member of parliament? [Mr. Stephen cried Hear!] The hon. and learned gentleman is pleased to cheer me, has he any doubts? for if he has, I beg to refer him to the Almanack. Col. Taylor was likewise, if I mistake not, paid out of the King's privy purse, but certainly was introduced to this situation solely on account of his Majesty's age and bodily infirmities. We have been told of the necessity of furnishing the crown with requisite assistance, is it meant by this, I ask, to insinuate that col. M'Mahon is necessary to enable the reigning prince to discharge the functions of the monarchy? Something like a contrast has been drawn by the noble lord opposite. I am sure that the King would have been affronted had he been told that he wanted assistance. Is Col. M'Mahon to read to his Royal Highness all the papers that are submitted to his perusal? Other duties, however, have been named by a right hon. gentleman, the Secretary of the Home Department, who in coming to the rescue of his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, reminded me of the noble lord's ludicrous image of col. M'Mahon digging up the Prince from a file of papers.—In what did colonel Taylor's duties consist, in what but in being the conduit between the King and his ministers? But we are told by the right hon. gentleman, that colonel M'Mahon may have other avocations, that it may be his duty to select and put forth such papers as ought to be laid before his Royal Highness, for the purpose of being taken into
356
his early consideration; and consequently to keep back other papers which he may not judge to be of that urgent nature. What is this but to give to colonel M'Mahon a controul over the interests and fortunes of men? If it be said on the other hand that colonel M'Mahon—a privy counsellor's, duties are to be confined to the arrangement of bundles of papers, of tying them up in tape, and disposing them in due order, is this a service that deserves the remuneration of 2,000 l. per annum? The whole affair wears the aspect of a place made for colonel M'Mahon; it has nothing constitutional belonging to it, no definition of duties, no copy of appointment; nothing but a vague Treasury minute. To be sure, it is said that the Prince Regent cannot listen to bad advice, and that colonel M'Mahon is incompetent to give it. I speak not of George Prince of Wales, nor of colonel John M'Mahon; but, Sir, we are to consider Regents and Secretaries in general, and in so doing we are justified in assuming the possibility of weak princes and dangerous secretaries, and of the most mischievous consequences resulting. The House of Commons has once prevailed lately, on the question of another appointment, against the right hon. gentleman, who does not yet seem to have finished his ministerial arrangements. I observe, indeed, many old faces in new parts of the House, and I hear of others who are willing to accept of place, if their wisdom be only duly estimated by the present cabinet.—It has been announced too that one right hon. gentleman (the Vice President of the Board of Trade) has offered to give his gratuitous assistance to the government. Surrounded therefore as the Prince is by interested and disinterested advisers, how do we know that colonel M'Mahon may not in a few days be a cabinet minister? We see one man give up his place on condition of being allowed to advise, and we see another refuse to advise unless he receives a place. Col. M'Mahon has been already dislodged from one situation by the advice of parliament. I think the House of Commons redeemed much of its character on that occasion, but I am sure it will lose much in the estimation of the country, and of its constituents, should it sanction this appointment of the noble lord, whose fortitude in entering upon office in these times of hard labour and warm debate, cannot be too much admired, and who told us in one

357
breath that he was equally 'ready to maintain and to deny.' The noble lord has referred to the reign of William, as if to compare his labours with those of the ministers of that monarch. Undoubtedly the Somers's, the Godolphins, the Marlboroughs of that time, were pigmies contrasted with the giants of the present day in politics, although perhaps in point of military merit there is BE necessity for degrading comparisons.—But still it would be a very bold thing to say that king William, who only reduced the power of France, which the giant statesmen of the present day have extended and confirmed, that he and the ministers who were the aid and instruments of his commanding wisdom, deserve to be put in the scale against the noble lord, or any of his right hon. colleagues.—The noble lord found on his admission to office, that during the administration of his predecessor, two ambassadors had been kept a year at home, as it were to season them in their new characters, and by a magnanimous effort he sent them to their destinations. The noble lord's hands must be full indeed. An Austrian messenger is said to have just arrived, and I dare say, there is a prodigious ferment in the foreign office, and that the noble lord's mind is too much heated and occupied with other and grander speculations, to think that any time should be lost, in considering whether the public ought to pay 2,000 l. per ann. to colonel M'Mahon for tying up and docketing papers. Notwithstanding, however, these pursuits and occupations of the noble lord, it is not to be forgotten that this is a new case, such, perhaps, as is quite worthy of this new æra. It behoves the House to remember that which is manifest, that the Prince Regent, in the full possession of his faculties, in the vigour of a health not likely to be impaired for many years to come, perfectly able to read and write, and fully competent to the transaction of public business, calls in that species of assistance which William 3, which Geo. 1, and George 2, in their long career of glory, and at those periods which are universally deemed to be the proudest in our national annals, did not require, which George 3 did not require, until by the severe visitation of Providence be was afflicted with blindness.—"What! deprive the Prince of a secretary," exclaims an hon. gentleman; "will you give him no help, will you afford him no time to deliberate on
358
the vast projects of those illustrious ministers by whom he is surrounded?" Why, Sir, his Majesty managed to do all this.—Oh, but then you do not consider the prodigious increase of public business since 1804, and indeed there may be some reasonable wonder how the business of that year was got through.—What so moderate too, it is asked, as the sum of 2,000 l.?—and if it be so moderate, what objection can there be to the Prince paying it out of his own private purse?—It was not the amount of emolument that constituted the objection to colonel M'Mahon's former appointment, but the principle, which has been condemned, as I trust the principle of the present appointment will be, by the House of Commons. The House ought to inform itself of the real duties attached to this newly erected office. I do not believe that they consist in the drudgery described. As a privy counsellor, colonel M'Mahon has a right to give advice to his Royal Highness. A noble lord and two right hon. gentlemen, whose arguments were so much alike as to render it difficult to distinguish between them, tell us at once that the Prince Regent cannot act without the aid of such an appointment. Do they mean to say this, that it is to be co-ordinate with the functions of royalty, that the monarchy is too unwieldy to be managed by a single hand, and that therefore, there is a necessity for calling in colonel M'Mahon to bear his share of the burden?—From the cheer of the right hon. gentleman, when by a right hon. friend of mine the phrase of 'early predilections' was used, be may have supposed that I included myself in the number of those to whom it might generally be applied. But I beg leave to disclaim the honour; the shot passed over my head. Doubtless we now know nothing of private attachments or private actions, though a pretty general belief once prevailed that there once were such things as political preferences and regards, since they appeared to be well authenticated and recorded. But this is at an end; the scene is closed; and we are henceforward to look only to the appointed and responsible servants of the crown, for the opinions of the crown, and I trust that after all we have heard, and all we have experienced from the evils of a secret influence, we shall not permit this new sera to be signalized by the formal appointment of an intermediate officer between the crown and its ministers.
Mr. Wilberforcedeclared, that with one exception, there could not, in his opinion, be a more unobjectionable appointment than that which was the subject of the present discussion. By the general acknowledgment, there was a greater weight of business on the sovereign at the present day, owing in a great measure to the extended scale of our military operations, than at any former period. If anyone voted against the motion, except on the conviction that there had been a great increase in public business, that person's view of the subject was very different from his. Under similar circumstances any man, even if he possessed the exertions and talents of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, might want a secretary. The situation of private secretary was not one of responsibility, neither did it encroach on the province of any minister of the crown. The ministers of the crown would still be the legal and constitutional organs through which all the public business must be transacted; and they would be liable to the same responsibility after this appointment as before it. The necessity of a private secretary to the Prince was obvious. As a precedent it was not dangerous. It was indispensable. Even his present Majesty, the most laborious prince who had ever filled the British throne, had, towards the latter part of his reign, been almost overwhelmed with public business. At the same time he must frankly declare his wish, that colonel M'Mahon had been paid out of the privy purse. It would have been a more seemly and decorous proceeding; though certainly the publicity which the proceeding that had been adopted in preference gave to the appointment, was a kind of security against any secret influence. As he was on the subject of secret influence, he would mention to the House, that he once had a conversation with a noble lord, now no more (lord North), who, in a former part of his political life, had spoken of an influence behind the throne, greater than the throne itself; and that on his questioning that noble lord towards the close of his life, with respect to his then opinion on the existence of such influence, his lordship said that he did not believe that any such existed. He had often been joked about his doubts' as to his vote; but on this occasion he should have no hesitation in voting against the motion, because to vote for it would be to vote for the reversal of the appointment in question.
Mr. Whitbreadexplained; and said, that in the various trades he was engaged in, he employed many clerks: he had one private one, but he paid him out of his own pocket.
Lord Folkestonewished to know what were the functions of the private secretary? Colonel Taylor's appointment formed no precedent. The present was like a question about a favourite or minion. He remembered when he was abroad in Russia, in the Emperor Paul's time, when prodigious activity seemed to prevail in the offices, and even the petty matters and details of the dress regiments were made concerns of the most serious importance, there was a person, sprung from low extraction, who rose in favour till he was actually made Privy Counsellor and Private Secretary to the emperor. This man was most about the imperial person, and every communication was made through him. Though he held only those two offices, all the parasites of the court fawned upon him. After some time, it appeared he was subservient to the views of France. He destroyed the influence of the ministers, who were there responsible to no parliament, overcame a proud nobility, turned them out of all places, and ultimately laid that country at the foot of French intrigue. He did not mean to say, that colonel M. was a man likely to do this: but it was right to look at the possibility of bad successors to such an office under some future weak prince. Seeing the possibility of such a danger, he should vote for the motion.
Mr. Marryatwould vote against the motion, because he conceived it a party question, and not involving any thing constitutional. Surely they would not refuse the Prince Regent a private secretary, when they allowed three to a military commander.
Mr. Charles Adamssaid, that he voted against the last appointment of colonel M'Mahon, because it was directly in the teeth of a resolution of the House. As to the present appointment, he had not heard any ground of opposition to it. The hon. gentleman on the other side had alluded to members who had lately changed their seats. If he had changed his seat, he certainly had not changed his mind; for he would give the same conscientious vote now that he gave then. In this new era he did not doubt but many members would have been glad to have changed sides; and he knew that even the hon.

361
gentleman himself had before altered his seat, though not perhaps his principle. The hon. gentleman would give him as well as himself the advantage of the classic maxim: 'Cælum, non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt.'
Mr. Tierneyregarded the present as a most important question. The hon. member for Yorkshire had approved of the appointment on the ground that the Prince Regent was too weak and infirm an old gentleman to act without it, and thus, for once in his life, had made up his mind to a decided vote. He understood the hon. member also to bestow his approbation on the proceeding, because there had been a great addition to the business of the sovereign. Now where was the addition to be discovered? Was it in the foreign office? Had the present foreign minister more to communicate to his Royal Highness than his predecessor had to the King? Was it in the home department; Admitting this to have increased, was it not known that all the details were managed by the minister, leaving to the Prince nothing but the task of affixing his signature—a task from which no private secretary could relieve him. He hoped the hon. member for Yorkshire, on informing himself a little better on this part of the question, would see reason for changing his opinion. The only duty that could be named, certainly appeared to be that described by his hon. friend, of assorting and tying up papers in red tape, although the hon. gentleman, for the first time he believed in that House, had talked of the necessity of attending to the Prince's private concerns. The private secretary truly was to assist the Regent in his private correspondence. Now really, he was not aware of any increase in the private friends of that illustrious person which made such an appointment necessary. And if there were, what necessity was there for making the private letter-writer a privy counsellor? Colonel Taylor might or might not be private secretary to his Majesty, but he had no right to assume that he held such a situation. His appointment was not gazetted. He understood that his Majesty objected to his being a privy counsellor, not being willing to recognize the necessity of assistance in the discharge of his royal duties from any quarter whatever. Colonel Taylor, though not paid out of the privy purse, was paid out of the royal and special bounties; his salary never met the public eye, and it
362
could never furnish a precedent for the appointment of colonel M'Mahon. By the dexterity of their former patriotism, the House had brought an additional burden on the country of 300 l. a year. It was to be considered too, that the salary of this appointment was not the only one enjoyed by colonel M'Mahon. He had undoubtedly been a faithful servant, but was he not rewarded at least in a fair proportion to his services? At that moment, as privy purse, he received 1,000 l. a year. As auditor of the duchy of Cornwall, he received 1,000 l. a year more, besides 500 l. a year as secretary to the Prince in his ducal capacity. With this new office, therefore, he received 4,500 l. a year; which was pretty well. The hon. member for Yorkshire, notwithstanding the vote he was to give that night, had yet started one little difficulty, which was, however, something for an economical gentleman like him—he was sorry that any money at all was to be paid by the country for this appointment. For his part, he had no hostile feeling to colonel M'Mahon, and wished to do nothing unpleasant to the Prince. He would allow that it might be necessary for the Prince to have advisers on military and other subjects. This, however, was said to be quite different; to be a private situation. He denied that there could be any thing private in such a situation. Colonel M'Mahon must either be secretary of state, or he could be nothing. Another thing he wished to know, was, whether this was to be a place for life or not? How did he know but that immediately after this appointment other persons might be called in to discharge the pretended duties of it, and that this might turn out a direct sinecure for colonel M'Mahon? He would own, for his own part, if he were to have any transactions with his Royal Highness, he would not apply to him through the medium of the right hon. gentleman opposite. He would prefer the intervention of colonel M'Mahon to going through all the tedious frivolities of Downing-street. Though some men might be without prejudices and predilections, there were others who might have them, and he, for one, certainly would entertain a predilection for one of these modes of application in preference to the other.—The hon. member for Yorkshire had said, he would have no objection to the production of the papers moved for, if they were wanted for the purpose

363
of information.—That was exactly what he wished for. He asked for nothing but to know whether or not the country required this new office? He believed that it was no more than a pretence to obtain 2,000 l. a year from the public for colonel M'Mahon.
Mr. Fullershould vote with all his heart and soul against the motion. Did not they allow on the other side that his Royal Highness had an immense number of private letters to write? And was that no ground for the appointment? Gentlemen should recollect, that when his Majesty ascended the throne, he was young and hearty.—That he used to get up and go to bed early.—And that he was quite able to go through all his papers without any help. Now did not they know that the Prince Regent was not so young, and that he would therefore want a secretary? The question was a Grenville question. It was worse than a party question. If the Grenvilles wanted to be so very patriotic, why did not some of the family throw up their sinecures? It would have been real patriotism to take no more of the public money from an overburthened people; not to be sucking their blood as those patriots seemed, out of affection, determined to do. Sinecures that, when they were conferred on that family, were worth but about 5 or 6,000 l. a year, now had increased to 30,000 l.; and yet it was this bloated family that complained of colonel M'Mahon's appointment. In fact it was their vanity that was disappointed, and all those measures were the result of that disappointment. There was a rancorous hatred lately manifested against all the measures of the Prince Regent, and it betrayed itself on this as well as on other occasions. Let the country now see who were the real friends of the Prince Regent. He did not mean any disparagement to lord Grey and the duke of Bedford; but they chose to load themselves with the Grenvilles. If they would tie a mill-stone about their neck and sink, it was not the fault of the Prince, nor of the country, but their own.
Mr. W. Wynnreplied, when the House divided,
For the motion 100: against it 176—Majority 76.

List of the Minority.

Althorpe, lord

Blackburn, J. J.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Babington, T.

Astley, sir J.

Brand, hon. T.

364

Burrell, sir C.

Knox, hon. T.

Buller, J. (Exeter)

Knight, Robt.

Baker, J.

Lamb, hon. W.

Barret, sir C.

Lyttelton, hon. W.

Baring, sir T.

Lemon, sir W.

Biddulph, R. M.

Langton, G.

Busk, W.

Latouche, R.

Brougham, H.

Martin, H.

Baring, A.

Morris, E.

Burdett, sir F.

Morpeth, visc.

Barham, J.

Milton, visc.

Bennet, hon. H.

Macdonald, J.

Chaloner, R.

Maule, hon. W.

Cavendish, H.

Madocks, W.

Curwen, C.

Mills, Wm.

Creevey, T.

Newport, sir J.

Craig, J.

North, D.

Cole, Ed.

O'Hara, C.

Campbell, gen.

Ossulston, lord

Combe, H. C.

O'Callaghen, J.

Calvert, N.

Ord, W.

Colborne, N. W. R.

Ponsonby, rt. hon. G.

Cuthbert, J. R.

Piggott, sir A.

Dillon, hon. H. A.

Power, R.

Dundas, hon. C. L.

Prittie, hon. F.

Dundas, hon. L.

Ridley, sir M. W.

Duncannon, visc.

Romilly, sir S.

Eden, hon. G.

Sebright, sir J.

Elliot, rt. hon. W.

Sharp, R.

Ferguson, gen.

Smith, Wm.

Folkestone, visc.

Smith, S.

Grattan, rt. hon. H.

Smith, G.

Grant, G. M.

Speir, A.

Greenbill, R.

Scudamore, R. P.

Gower, lord. G. L.

Shipley, col.

Grenfell, P.

Tierney, rt. hon. G.

Hussey, T.

Taylor, W.

Harboard, hon. E.

Tarleton, gen.

Hibbert, G.

Tremayne, L. H.

Hughes, W. H.

Vernon, G. G. V.

Hamilton, lord A.

Williams, sir R.

Herbert, hon. W.

Wrottesley, H.

Horner, F.

Whitbread, S.

Hutchinson, hon. C.

Ward, hon. J.

Halsey, Jos.

Western, C. C.

Ingleby, sir W.

Wilkins, W.

Kemp, T.

TELLERS.

Kensington, lord

Wynn, C. W.

King, sir J. D.

Giles, D.

BARRACK ESTIMATES.
The Report of the Committee of Supply being brought up and read,
Mr. Fremantleobjected to the Barrack Estimates. He said, that the barrack to be erected in the Regent's Park was estimated to cost 133,500 l. which was only to contain 416 men, which would be at the rate of 350 l. per man. That at Liverpool, which was to contain 2 regiments of infantry, would cost 82,000 l.; and that at Bristol, for only 800 men, was estimated at 60,000 l. making a total of 275,000 l. for three barracks. He then argued at length on the general extravagance of expenditure in the barrack system, which had

365
since the commencement of the war, cost the country upwards of 15 millions. When this enormous sum was taken into consideration, he was convinced the House would pause before they voted such a large additional sum as that now required, till they saw the estimate and the plan, and could thereby form something like a correct idea of the real expence.
Mr. Whartoncontended, that the hon. gentleman had mixed the barrack expenditure with the building of barracks, and that the whole expence of barracks since the commencement of the war, did not amount to within two millions of the sum he had stated.
Mr. Whitbreadproposed instead of the word "now," "this day se'nnight."
A conversation took place, in which Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Wilberforce, Sir J. Newport, and Mr. Bankes, spoke in favour of the amendment; and it was at length agreed, on the suggestion of Mr. Bankes, that the report should be agreed to, with respect to all the articles, except those which related to the barracks, and that they should be deferred till this day se'nnight.