Commons Sitting of 9 April 1812

PETITIONS FROM WALSALL AND NOTTINGHAM RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
A Petition of the merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of the borough and foreign of walsall, was presented and read; setting forth:
"That, in consequence of the usual markets upon the continent of Europe be-

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ing, with a few exceptions, entirely shut against British manufacturers, and of the unfortunate misunderstanding with the United States of America, the trade of the petitioners, in common with that of the kingdom in general, has suffered very severe and distressing privations; and that, when the petitioners call to mind the uniform and pertinacious system of hostility which the ruler of the French nation has manifested towards the commerce of this country, together with the unbounded influence which his arms or intrigues have procured, they cannot but consider the probability of the usual channels of trade being re-opened as very faint and distant; labouring under the privations of a declining trade, and the pressure of a heavy taxation, the petitioners eagerly look for I ward to the adoption of some measures by which new markets may be opened, and the industry and enterprize of the nation be brought into proper action; and the petitioners further presume to represent, that, in order to accomplish this desirable end, the East Indies would afford ample and effectual means, were they not excluded from that immense tract of country by the sweeping monopoly of the East India Company, a monopoly which has produced no benefit to its possessors as a commercial body, nor at all advanced the interests of the British trade in India, since the exports of the Company in English manufactures are trifling and unimportant; and that the petitioners cannot refrain from expressing their regret that they should be the victims of this monopoly, while the subjects of other nations are admitted to reap the advantage of this exclusion; and praying the House to take the premises into their most serious consideration, and to afford relief to the petitioners, either by preventing the renewal of the East India Company's Charter after the termination of its present limit, or to modify it in such way as to the wisdom of the House may seem most conducive to open the trade of the East to the mercantile energy and spirit of the empire at large."
A Petition of the mayor and burgesses of the town and county of the town of Nottingham, was also presented and read; setting forth,
"That the petitioners are impressed with the most lively conviction that the trading and manufacturing interests of the British empire are experiencing severe
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suffering, owing to the system adopted by the present ruler of the French empire, in restricting the commercial intercourse of this kingdom with the continent of Europe, and to the existence of the British Orders in Council, as they affect our commerce with America; and that many thousands of the labouring part of the community, in the immediate district and neighbourhood of the petitioners, have, by these means, been reduced to poverty and distress, and thereby seduced to temporary acts of violence, to restrain which the strong arm of the law has been necessarily exerted in the conviction and punishment of the offenders; and the petitioners entreat that the House will, under these circumstances, take into their most serious consideration the manner in which these distresses have been increased by the monopoly created in favour of the East India Company by that charter which vests in them the exclusive right of trade and navigation to all countries comprehended between the Cape of Good Hope and the Straits of Magellan; and the petitioners request that the House would determine whether it be conformable to the principles of justice and of a liberal and enlightened policy, that whilst access to these regions should be allowed, by the Act of the 37th year of his present majesty to all nations in amity with this country, all the subjects of the British empire, not clothed with the privileges of the East India Company, are excluded there from; and that the petitioners are extremely solicitous that all the subjects of Great Britain and Ireland, without distinction, should on the expiration of the present Charter of the East India Company, be admitted to a full participation in the trade to all those extensive territories comprehended in that Charter, the petitioners being of opinion that such a measure would afford employment to many thousands of workmen in the different manufactures of these kingdoms at present reduced to poverty and distress; that it would create an additional nursery for seamen, and prove the means of encreasing the riches, the revenue, and the national prosperity of the British empire; and praying the House to take these premises into their most serious deliberation, in deciding upon the further extension of the Charter to the East India Company, and to grant such relief therein to the subjects of this empire, engaged in trade and commerce, as the nature of the case may appear to the

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House to require, and as to the House may seem expedient, in a matter of such serious importance to the British empire."
Ordered to lie upon the table.

SEA-WATER BATHS BILL.
Mr. Peter Moorepresented three several Petitions in favour of a Bill before the House, for the erection of Sea Water Baths in the vicinity of the metropolis. The first Petition was from the members of the royal college of physicians, setting forth the great utility of these Baths, as necessary to the comfort and convenience of the inhabitants of the metropolis, as being highly beneficial to the health of the inhabitants in the cure of cutaneous and eruptive disorders.—The next Petition was from the inhabitants of the city and liberties of Westminster, to the same effect, and the third Petition was from the inhabitants of the city of London, staling similar benefits as likely to arise, if the House would permit the Bill to pass into a law.—The Petitions were laid on the table.
Mr. P. Moorethen moved the second reading of the above Bill.
Admiral Harveyopposed it, principally on the ground that some of the landed properties in Essex, either were against it, or at least remained neuter. He therefore moved, that instead of" Now," the Bill be read the second time this day six months.
Lord Hennikersupported the motion.
Mr. Mooreobserved, that as the two hon. members had objected to the progress of the Bill in perfect good humour, and not having stated one real solid objection to the Bill passing into a law, and after the royal college of physicians and the cities of London and Westminster had come forward in favour of it, he thought the House would allow it to go into a committee. With respect to the Bill itself, of 209 persons slated to be interested in opposing its progress, 104 had given their assent, 86 were neuter, because as their names were not in the papers, they were not consulted, and only 19 dissented. So that, in a line of 40 miles, which the works necessary for completing the undertaking would occupy, there were 7–8ths of the parties interested in favour of it.
Mr. Humesupported the Bill, as tending to the comfort of the metropolis, and stated, that in the committee, the prepared would be prepared to prove that 7–8ths of the county of Essex had given their consent.
Mr. Curwenconceived, that as the pub-
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lic would derive great benefit from the erection of sea water baths, at least he hoped the House would allow it to go to a Committee.
The House divided on the second reading now—Ayes 17; Noes 29. Majority against it 12.

MOTION RESPECTING MARTINICO SUGARS ADMITTED INTO IRELAND.
Sir John Newport observed, that he had given notice of this motion last session, but owing to the delay which generally took place in the printing of papers relating to Ireland, he had not been able to bring it forward at that time. He then went into a minute statement of a transaction which had taken place in Ireland, in the year 1810 An individual had, at that period, introduced a cargo of Martinico sugars, for which he was required to pay the foreign, instead of the British colonial duties, as he had been led to expect by the Custom-house officers at Martinico. On this he presented a memorial to the lord lieutenant, stating his grievances, and praying for a remedy. The sugars were then allowed to be warehoused; and after a considerable time part of those sugars were allowed to be sold for the home consumption, the rest being liable to the foreign duties. The right hon. baronet censured that constant interference of the Irish executive government in revenue affairs, instead of referring them to the treasury, as was uniformly the case in this country. This interference, he maintained, would ever prevent any proper Older in the administration of revenue in Ireland. He concluded by moving the following Resolutions: 1. "That, on the 31st of December 1810, a Petition to the lord lieutenant of Ireland for admission of a cargo of Martinico sugars, on payment of British colonial duty, was referred to the board of customs, who reported that they could not be admitted to entry but on payment of foreign duty, conformably to the 49th Geo. 3, c. 61, as stated by the attorney general to the board. 2. That, on the 11th of January, 1811, the said sugars were landed on bond and stored, in conformity to the order of the lord lieutenant. 3. That, on the 6th of February, a Petition for liberty to dispose of 40 hogsheads of the said sugars, alleged to be damaged, and of the remainder of the said cargo, on payment of British duty, was referred to the board of customs, who reported, on the 13th of March, that, in conformity to the attorney

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general's and board counsel's opinion, "that the said 40 hogsheads, and such other part of the cargo as the merchant thought fit, might be disposed of, on payment of British colonial duty, provided a sufficient quantity remained in store to satisfy the higher duty, should the same be thereafter required," they had ordered the said sugars to be entered accordingly. 4. That, on the 8th and 9th of March 250 hogsheads, part of the said sugars were entered on payment of 1l. 7s. per cwt. in place of 2l. 9s. 5d. the foreign duty to which they were liable, making a difference of 2,965 l. which balance was not paid in to the revenue of Ireland until the 14th of January following. 5. That, on the 15th of March, the lord lieutenant's order was signified, to suspend the execution of the said order, which had been already carried into effect on the 6th and 9th of the said month. 6. That, on the 26th of April, another application for discharge of the rest of the said sugars, on payment of British colonial duty, was referred to the board of customs, and, on the authority of the attorney general, negatived, and payment of the balance of duty on the former sugars directed to be enforced. 7. That all these orders were conveyed from the lord lieutenant to the board of customs by the under secretary in the civil department without the intervention of the board of treasury, although the 35 Geo. 3, c. 28, s. 22, Irish statute, by which that board is established, entrusts to it the duty of superintending and controuling the collection and management of the revenue of Ireland in all its branches. 8. That, from June 1811 to March 1812, when the remaining sugars, 200 hogsheads, were entered for exportation on payment of foreign duty, the whole proceedings in this case were directed by the board of treasury, communicating with the board of customs, according to the intent and meaning of the last-mentioned act of parliament."
Mr. W. Polesaid, he certainly should not take up the time of the House by following the right hon. baronet through the details into which he had though proper to enter, particularly as the right hon. baronet had admitted that, since the month of April last, all the steps which had been taken in this business had met with his approbation. With respect to the delay which took place last session, it arose from the unfortunate illness of the right hon. baronet himself, and not because the pa-
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pers were not produced. The simple facts of the case were, that the person alluded to by the right hon. baronet had imported a large quantity of Martinico sugar into Ireland, under the idea that he should only be charged the British colonial duties, not the foreign duties, and upon finding that he bad been misinformed with respect to the law upon the subject, he had applied to the executive power for redress. The right hon. baronet had contended, that the lord lieutenant, by means of his secretary or under secretary, ought not to have interfered, but that the interference with the revenue board, if it was necessary should have been by the treasury. This was the first time he had ever heard it stated, that if a person applied to the executive government, praying for relief, that the application ought not to be attended to. He agreed with the right hon. baronet, that when the interference did take place, it would have been better if notice had been given to the treasury, because, in all cases of this kind, he was of opinion that the treasury ought to be consulted, or to have notice given to it of the transaction. With respect to the present case, he was at a loss to conceive what it was that the right hon. baronet complained of: the revenue had sustained no loss, for he himself admitted that every farthing of the duties had been paid. When the individual first applied to the Irish government, the opinion of the attorney-general was taken upon it, and upon that opinion the sugars were allowed to be landed. It was true that a pan of these sugars were allowed to be taken out of the stores, and sold for home consumption, paying the smaller duties, and he would state the reason of it. When this person imported this large quantity of Martinico sugars into Ireland, he had entered into several engagements which he meant to liquidate with the produce of these sugars, and in consequence of an application from him, he was allowed to sell a part of the sugars; but enough was received in the king's stores to cover the whole of the foreign duties, not only upon what was sold, but upon what was retained in the stores. If this permission had not been granted, the man must have become a bankrupt, and it appeared very hard to place a man in that situation, when he had property to so large amount in the king's warehouses. Upon the whole, he was at a loss to conceive what was the complaint which the right hon.

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baronet intended to make against the government of Ireland. The case of this individual had been examined with the greatest care and attention, and it was not pretended that the revenue had sustained the slightest loss. Under these circumstances, he should certainly oppose the motion.
Mr. Parnellcondemned generally the policy on which the financial concerns of Ireland were conducted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, this was the most extraordinary motion he had ever known to be attempted to be brought before the House. No ground had been laid before them, no character had been given to the resolutions either of praise or blame; and as so much of the time of the House had been already taken up to no purpose, he felt it his duty to move the previous question.
Sir J. Newportinsisted that a character had been given to the resolutions. One of them particularly complained, that the regulation of the duties on excise and customs bad been assumed and acted on by the executive power, without any application to the board of treasury, to which department they belonged. That when be shewed this to the late Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer he was absolutely amazed at the transaction, and could scarcely bring himself to credit it: but the fact was, that of which another of the resolutions complained, namely, that the right hon. Secretary had a preponderating influence in Ireland,—that he was the sole organ of government, and no other person had any will under it. The right hon. gentleman himself had frequently proclaimed it to the House, and it was now folly evinced. He was therefore surprised the right hon. gentleman should have slept in with the previous question.
A division then took place on the original question. For the Resolutions 11; Against them 36.

EXPORTATION OF IRISH SPIRITS.
Mr. Wharton brought up the Report of the Committee on the Suspension of the Exportation of Spirits from Ireland on the motion that it be agreed to,
Sir J. Newportintreated government not to protract any measures which they might have in view for the relief of the people of Ireland in the present scarcity of grain. Every day's post brought additional proofs of the existence and the pressure of that scarcity, and he hoped the
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right hon. gentleman opposite was sensible of the serious responsibility under which he laboured on this subject.
Mr. V. Poleassured the right hon. baronet, that he was fully sensible of the serious responsibility which attached to him in the discharge of his official duties. To be reminded of this, he need only look at the public prints in Ireland, in which, while on the one hand the distresses of the people of Ireland were exaggerated in the most unjustifiable manner, a kind of proclamation was issued on the other for visiting all those distresses on his head. Still, however, he was firmly determined not to come forward and propose to parliament what he could not but consider a most calamitous measure, namely, the total stoppage of the distillation from grain, until he should be in possession of documents of so cogent a nature as to shew the indispensable necessity of such a proceeding. Whenever that might be the case, he trusted that he should not be found disposed to shrink from his duty. He admitted that every post did bring additional information on this subject of an unpleasant nature, and that the post of this day had conveyed to him the unwelcome intelligence, that corn in Ireland was still higher even than he anticipated it would be; but he repeated, that government kept a watchful eye on what was passing in that country, and that they might perhaps soon feel it to be their duty to propose further measures to counteract the evil.
Sir John Newportdisclaimed all intention of throwing any censure on the right hon. gentleman. His information had been derived, not from the Irish newspapers, but from respectable individuals, some of whom were known to the right hon. gentleman, and who entertained for him a high regard.
The Resolution was agreed to, and a Bill ordered accordingly.

IRISH FINANCE COMMITTEE.
Sir John Newport, in pursuance of the notice be had given, rose, to move for the addition of six members to the committee for examining into the state of the revenue and expenditure in Ireland. Among the names he should propose, were those of Mr. Shaw, of Dublin, Mr. Johnstone, and lord Archibald Hamilton. On the name of the first of those gentlemen being pot from the chair,
Mr. Polesaid, the fact was, that there

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were several documents which were necessary for the committee to have before them, which were not yet produced, and that the thin attendance was not attributable to any neglect on the part of the members. He considered, therefore, that any addition was wholly unnecessary.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that while the right hon. gentleman admitted the fact of non-attendance, he seemed to consider it no evil. It was extraordinary that he should appear to suppose that the committee were to meet or not as he pleased to direct.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhoped the right hon. baronet had never found any disposition not to accommodate, and he was quite sure that if the right hon. baronet had any proposition to make at any time to the committee, he, for his part, would be most desirous to meet his wishes. He was satisfied that a sufficient number of members were present if any business was before them.
Sir J. Newport, though he should not press a division, yet he protested against the opposition made to his motion. The committee had been appointed last session, at the recommendation of the throne, and nothing had yet been done of any consequence; it was a delusion upon the country, and he therefore hoped, as the right hon. gentleman was about to propose lord Castlereagh's name to be added to the committee, that he would substitute it in the place of his, as he could not remain a member where he could be of no service.
Mr. W. Poleexpressed his concern at the wish of the right hon. baronet, whose services on the committee were so highly valuable, and whose absence from it would be so severely felt. He assured him that as far as his business would permit, he would give his attendance to the committee, and endeavour to meet his wishes.
The motion was then withdrawn, and the name of lord Castlereagh added to the committee.

EXPORTATION OF RICE.
Mr. Lytteltonnot seeing the Vice-President of the Board of Trade in his place, begged to ask of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he was correct in certain information he had received, that there were at this moment ships in the river, having cargoes of rice on board, with licences to proceed with the same to ports in France.
No answer being given,
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that though the Vice-President of the Board of Trade was not present, still he thought, when the appearance of scarcity was so alarming as it was at this moment, that it would be becoming in the right hon. gentleman to give some answer to the question which had been put to him by his hon. friend; or, if he was not prepared to do so now, that the matter should stand over till to-morrow, and that, in the mean time, the sailing of any vessels in such circumstances should be suspended.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he understood the question to be, whether there were not some vessels in the river, having licences to France, with rice on board? He was not aware whether there were or were not any vessels in that situation. There, no doubt had been licences granted to export articles not prohibited, and as the law stood there being nothing to prohibit the exportation of rice, that article of course would be comprehended under the general licence. There had recently, he believed, been a communication made on the subject of the scarcity of this article, in consequence of which, in all licences since granted, the word "Rice" had been excluded. How far it would have been proper, as rice was not a prohibited article, to prevent the exportation of any cargo already shipped under a licence previously granted, he thought was a matter of serious consideration. It seemed to him to be extremely doubtful how far, in these circumstances, a merchant ought to be deprived of the best market he could get; and it even seemed to be of serious consideration, whether the knowledge of such a regulation might not prevent the importation of the article, particularly from America.
Mr. Whitbreadthought the first question was, what would be the best mode of applying the rice now in this country, whether to keep it to ourselves, or to export it for the use of our enemies? As to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman in regard to America, he confessed he was surprised that the right hon. gentleman should have made any reference to that country, when he considered in what istuation he himself stood—who he was—and what had been his conduct in regard to America. He really thought, in the situation in which the right hon. gentleman stood, he needed not have applied any of his general principles to America.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had not forgotten who or what he was, but had thrown out what he had said only as reasons against interfering with licences already granted.
Mr. Lyttletonhoped he should have received a more pointed answer, whether licences were, in the present circumstances of the country, granted for the exportation of so necessary an article.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he had already stated, that many licences had been granted generally, which comprehended rice, as not being a prohibited article. Since communications on the subject had been made to the Board of Trade, the article of rice had been uniformly excepted; but if the hon. gentleman meant to contend, that where the licences had been granted generally, and cargoes of rice had been shipped, the exportation ought still to be stopped, he had not the smallest doubt that the hon. gentleman would require an act of parliament for that purpose.
Here the matter ended.

PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF CONTROUL.
Mr. Creeveyrose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for copies of the Patents, under which lord Melville, and the earl of Buckinghamshire, were appointed to the office of President of the Board of Controul. He observed, that in 1784, when the Board of Controul was nominated, none of the members belonging to which were to receive salary, but the President had been allowed 2,000 l. per annum, which he received up to last year. In that session, a Bill was brought in for its augmentation, and 22,000 l. had been voted for that purpose. His object, therefore, by this motion was, to ascertain what further sum had been given to lord Melville who lately held, and to lord Buckinghamshire, who now filled the office of President of the Board. The former of these noblemen had been in possession of a a Scotch sinecure, producing 2,500 l. per annum, of the place of lord privy seal of Scotland, yielding 3,500 l. and of 5,000 l. under the act of last session, making together 10,000 l. a year. The earl of Buckinghamshire had a sinecure and salary, as having served the office of chief secretary for Ireland, of 11,000 l. per annum, besides 1,500 l. given to him by the East India Company, in consideration of his having served the office of governor of Madras, and his lordship now
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was in receipt of 5,000 l. as President of the Board of Controul, ascending together to the enormous sum of 17,000 l. a year. He put it to the right hon. gentleman over the way, whether this amount of public money was not too much to be assigned to one individual. He understood, that lord Melville had thought right to relinquish the tellership of the Exchequer he formerly held, and was content with the 5,000 l. per annum he obtained as first lord of the Admiralty. He trusted that this act of liberality would have its due effect upon the mind of the earl of Buckinghamshire, and concluded by moving "That there be laid before this House, copies of all warrants under his Majesty's sign manual, directing the amount of the salaries to lord viscount Melville, late President of the Board of Controul, and to the earl of Buckinghamshire, now President of the Board of Controul, under and by virtue of the act 51 Geo. 3, c. 75."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that undoubtedly one object of the act of last session was to increase the salary of Mr. Dundas, who then discharged the arduous duties of the President of the Board alluded to. He admitted that it had been strenuously resisted by the hon. gentleman, but his objections had been overruled by the better judgment of the House. Lord Melville, however, upon his nomination to the situation he now held, had resigned the office previously occupied by his late father, of privy seal of Scotland, with the salary annexed to it. If the hon. gentleman expected that sinecure offices were to be held without the receipt of any salary, it was a new principle not yet recognized by parliament. Individuals who under the last administration held situations to which no public duty was attached, did not think it necessary to set an example which was now considered so laudable. It would not now be denied that the earl of Buckinghamshire was entitled to an adequate reward for the execution of public duties of great importance, but, filling this new office under the East India Company, he had thought it right to resign the annuity of 1,500 l. as governor of Madras. As the the papers now required would in the regular course of business be laid before parliament, he thought the motion unnecessary, but if it were persisted in he should not resist it.
Mr. Whitbreadwished to put a question of some importance to the right hon. the

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Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wished to know whether the pension of the President of the Board of Controul depended upon the continuance of the East India Company's charter? If so, considering also his former attachment, it appeared that the earl of Buckinghamshire must have a direct and obvious interest in supporting the monopoly so grievously complained of by the nation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought it extremely probable that the grant depended upon the contingency of the renewal of the charier. He could not see why the previous employment of his lordship should render him unfit, under the present circumstances, to fill the office of President of the Board of Controul. Certain it was that there was no legal incompetency, and no other objection could be assigned.
Mr. Whitbread, leaving the earl of Buckingamshire out of the question, thought that he might assume, from the known motives that influenced men in general, that any other person but the noble earl might be induced more strenuously to support a cause in the success of which he was so largely interested. He was not surprized that the right hon. gentleman had fixed upon an interested individual, considering the great difficulty he had found in discovering persons who would consent to serve under him.
The Motion was then agreed to.