Commons Sitting of 23 May 1811

PETITION OF THE ROYAL CANAL COMPANY IN IRELAND FOR RELIEF.
Mr. Fosterpresented a Petition from the Royal Canal Company of Ireland, praying for relief from their embarrassments, in any manner which the House pleased to adopt.
The Speakerinquired whether the Petition, being an application for pecuniary relief, came recommended in the usual manner?
Mr. Secretary Rydersignified the assent of his royal highness the Prince Regent.
Sir J. Newportexpressed his determination to oppose the prayer of the Petition, on account of the conduct of the company, who had squandered their money unnecessarily.
Mr. Fosterobserved, he merely would move that the Petition should lie on the table, without pledgnig himself as to his future conduct.
Mr. W. Poleslated, that documents would be presented to the House, which would afford every information on the subject, particularly the Report of the Commissioners of Inland Navigation in Ire land, to whom the inspection of the affair" of the company had been referred.
The Petition was then read, setting forth:
"That in the 29th year of his present Majesty's reign, several noblemen and gentlemen of distinction in Ireland, anxious for the improvement of their country, proposed to become undertakers of, and to subscribe large sums of money for completing a navigable canal from Dublin to Tarmonbury, on the river Shannon, a distance of about 70 miles; and that, from the plans, levels, and estimates, made at their desire by the persons then generally reputed most skilful in such matters, they were induced to believe that their said scheme might be carried into execution for a sum of 200,000 l.; and that, for an object of so great public utility, it was conceived reasonable to solicit the sanction and aid of the legislature; and accordingly, in the said year, petitions were presented to both Houses of Parliament,

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subscribed by many of the first names in the land, offering, on behalf of themselves and others, to engage in this great undertaking, from whence the population, the commerce, the agriculture, and the wealth of the country were likely to derive so vast an increase; stating the line and level by which they conceived the plan might be accomplished, and praying some aid from the revenues of the nation which was so much interested in the event; and that there was then in Ireland a company incorporated some time before under the name of the Grand Canal Company, for the purpose of conducting a navigable canal from Dublin to a more southern part of the same river, a work in which they had then made some progress; and that the members of that company, alarmed at the idea of competition, petitioned both Houses of Parliament against the proposed undertaking, as an encroachment on that monopoly, the hope of which, as they alledged, had induced them to proceed so far; and that the matter of both the said petitions was much canvassed in parliament; and to the objection made by the Grand Canal Company it was answered, that the Shannon was river of vast extent, flowing through countries of great fertility, abounding with mines of various descriptions, and wanting nothing but facility of conveyance to diffuse wealth and industry over the nation; that nature has divided this great river into two tracts of perhaps equal value, separated from each other by a lake called Lough Ree, into which the river spreads, and of which the navigation has too much of difficulty and danger for river-boats to encounter; that the Grand Canal would connect the southern tract with the metropolis and the coast; of Great Britain, while the proposed navigation would afford the same advantages to the northern part of the river, and thus, without hazard of competition, an object was held forth to each sufficient to excite their zeal and industry, and, by means of both, a complete system of internal communication would be farmed to the unspeakable advantage of the country; after a full consideration of the subject, the legislature decided in favour of the proposed canal to Tarmonbury; and by an act then passed, 29 Geo. 3, c. 33, for the promotion and encouragement of inland navigation, amongst several clauses of a similar nature, a sum of 06,000 l. was granted under the terms therein mentioned to such persons as were or should be undertakers for completing
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the said canal; and that, by his Majesty's royal letters patent, bearing date at Dublin the 1st day of October, in the 29th year of his Majesty's reign, several noblemen and gentlemen, by name, and all such persons as then had or thereafter should have any share in the joint stock therein mentioned, were incorporated in the usual form under the name of the Royal Canal Company; and it was thereby provided, that their capital stock should be 200,000 l., to wit, 66,000 l. so granted, and I 134,000 l. to be subscribed by the individual members, who were thereby empowered to complete the said navigation from certain parts of Dublin therein specified to or near Tarmonbury aforesaid by a line to be carried on through or near Kilcock, Kinnegad, and Mullingar, and for that purpose to purchase and hold all such lands, buildings, goods, and chattels, as should be necessary, and to alien or sell the same, or any part thereof, at their pleasure; and that it having been found, on examination, that the course prescribed by the said charter was ineligible, and that some farther powers were necessary, an act was in the ensuing year (30 Geo. 3, c. 20) passed in the said parliament, intituled, "An act for the better enabling the Royal Canal Company to carry on and complete the Royal Canal from the city of Dublin to Tarmonbury on the river Shannon," whereby a new line is prescribed for the said canal in Dublin and the parts near thereto; and the said canal is directed to be carried on to or near Tarmonbury by a line near Lucan, Leixlip, Maynooth, Kilcock, Kinnegad, and Mullingar, still adhering to Tarmonbury as the ultimate destination, and guarding, the rights of the Grand Canal Company by a clause prohibiting any approach with in a shorter distance than lour miles from their canal, but with that restriction, leaving to the discretion of the Royal Canal Company those deviations which unforeseen circumstances might from time to time suggest; and that the Royal Canal was shortly after begun near the circular road of Dublin, and carried on in the direction appointed, but before it had extended any considerable distance the whole of the 200,000 l. was expended; and that, although the original estimates thus plainly appeared to have been fallacious, it was a fallacy in which the company had no other concern than the misfortune of being the principal sufferers by it, the expenditure (which alone was their province), had been faith-

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fully made; and so plain did this appear, that, under the provisions of an act made in the year 1798, a farther sum of 25,000 l was advanced as a loan by the public to the company, on the terms of their binding themselves by recognizance to complete their canal to Thomastown, a distance from Dublin of 33 miles; and that, after expending on the works the said sum of 25,000 l. and a further sum of 90,000 l. raised by the company for the purpose, they once more found themselves in want of money to enable them to proceed; and that, for obtaining such money, the first expedient which occurred was an application for aid to the directors general, at whose disposal a sum of 500,000 l. had been then recently placed by the legislature for the advancement of in-land navigation in Ireland; and that the directors general, conceiving themselves bound to obtain the best terms in their power for the public, proposed to grant a sum of 95,806 l. 7s. 10 d. to the company on the terms of their reducing for ever the tolls of their canal in no instance less than one third, on some specified articles two thirds, and on potatoes brought from Dublin no less than five sixths of the former rate; it was farther required that the company should engage to extend their canal at both its extremities, so as to have it complete from the river Liffey and Constitution hill, in the city of Dublin, to the town of Coolnahay: and that a cut should be made from the canal to communicate with Lough Owell, a body of the purest water, so situate as to command the summit level, and sufficient to supply the whole canal from Dublin to Tarmonbury, and so extensive, that it has since enabled them permanently to supply the pipes by which the northern half of Dublin is provided with water: this proposal was accepted; the terms were reduced into the form of a contract, which bears dale November 3d 1801, and that contract has been completely fulfilled, on the 2Sth day of December in the year 1808, the whole of the works so stipulated was complete, which was done at an expence, not of the said sum of 95,866 l. 7s. 10 d. but of considerably more than 200,000 l; and that, to make up that sum, and many others expended on the works at different times, the corporation raised money on debentures; that in all the debentures so issued previous to the year 1798, the principal sums raised with interest thereon, at 6 per cent.
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were made charges and liens on the tolls and all other estates of the Company, but ail debentures issued by the said company after that year, were in the nature of perpetual annuities charged on the tolls and other property; from the general confidence in their future welfare, the sum required was always procured without difficulty, in whatever form the debentures were prepared; and that the loss sustained by the reduction of tolls above-mentioned amounted in the year 1809 to no less a sum than 4,363 l. 8s. 5¼d.; to what extent it may hereafter increase, by the advancement of wealth and intercourse, cannot now be calculated, but even at the present rate the sum received by the company does not amount to 22 years purchase of the income thus extinguished for ever; and that the petitioners therefore presume to consider this transaction not as a gift to them, but as a bargain in which a permanent benefit to the public has been purchased by the directors general, at a price certainly not above its value; and that the canal having been thus extended to Coolnahay, a distance of 46 miles from Dublin, it remained that the company should take measures for the continuation of it to Tarmonbury, according to the provisions of their charter, of the acts of parliament abovementioned, and of many others since made from time to time for the regulation or aid of the company; for this purpose they caused the most exact surveys and estimates to be prepared of the different possible lines, by all which it appeared, that to complete the canal in the direction first suggested would require a sum of 340,525 l 15 s. 11 d. and a period of ten years; that by turning from that course near Tinnelick, and going a little farther to the southward, a new line might be followed, which, without deviating in any pan more-than a mile from the former, should return to it at Mosstown, nut more than nine miles from the commencement of the deviation, and according to which the whole might be Completed for a sum of 186,087 l. 16 s. 11 d. and in "bout three years, being a saving, by means of this small alteration, of seven years in lime, and of no less than 154,437 l. 19 s. in money; and that it was suggested that the Company might perhaps find some mode of reaching the Shannon by a Canal farther to the northward, which being, so much more distant from the Grand Canal, might diminish at least, if not remove, competition injurious, as it was said, to

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both; and that the petitioners accordingly directed surveys to be made with a view to that object, though certainly with little, if any, hope as to the event, some of the petitioners well remembering, and the rest of them fully believing, that that matter had been carefully considered previous to the formation of the Company, or to the charter and acts of Parliament, by all of which they had been directed to Tarmonbury; and that accordingly it turned out that the shortest practicable line which could be found farther to the north, was one turning off from the present Canal near the twentieth lock, about 34 miles from Dublin, and reaching the Shannon at Roosky, which would leave many miles of the Canal already made almost useless, and would require a sum of 497,748 l. 12 s. 1d. and a period of 15 years to complete it; and that the petitioners had no funds for the execution of any of those works, and therefore applied for aid once more to the directors general, communicating at the same time the result of the different surveys; and that the directors general, having examined carefully the several plans above-mentioned, naturally preferred that which could be executed at the smallest price and in the shortest time, but not having funds sufficient for the entire even of that line, desired that the Company should lay before them a proposal for proceeding as far as Ballymahon, on the line so preferred; this being accordingly done, the estimate amounted to above 106,638 l. 1s. 3d.; and that the Grand Canal Company, having heard of the above circumstances, presented a petition to the directors general, complaining that the Royal Canal had from the beginning been an injury to them, and an encroachment on their monopoly, but that of late, by its extension and the reduction of its tolls, it had operated to their prejudice with increased effect; and that by coming nearer to them, it must be still more injurious, and praying that no assistance should be given to the petitioners from the public money, unless they would agree to proceed in a direction farther to the northward; and that the directors general conceived that the original question between the two companies had been long since disposed of by supreme authority, that a reduction of tolls, purchased for the public benefit, and with the public money, ought not to be turned to the injury of the petitioner", or made the ground for withholding any grant they might otherwise be entitled to; and that
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the mere circumstance of the line approaching nearer to the Grand Canal by a single mile could not be considered as a sufficient reason for the refusal of all aid, more especially as the distance between the two canals would still be 20 miles, five times as great as that which the legislature had though proper to prescribe as the limit; and that, when the Royal Canal should have reached the Shannon, to which the Grand Canal had already arrived, the profits which both companies might be expected soon to derive from the different tracts of that great river, with which they must respectively communicate, would extinguish all competition between them; and that the directors general accordingly ordered to the petitioners the sum of 71,092 l. 0s. 10 d.on the terms of their contracting to complete the Canal to Ballymahon, which order was duly approved of according to the act of Parliament; and that, on an appeal from this order, the lord lieutenant and council were pleased to reverse it, as tending to the injury of the Grand Canal Company, an opinion founded, as the petitioners humbly conceive, not on the small deviation above-mentioned, but on a general view of the consequences expected to follow from a continuation of the Royal Canal in any line leading so far to the southward as Tarmonbury; and that the petitioners therefore consider it as now finally determined, that they must either renounce all pretensions to aid from the directors general, or adopt the line to Roosky, which no aid within the power of that board could enable them to accomplish; and that the petitioners bow with the humblest deference to the judgment of the lord lieutenant and council, and make no doubt that the petitioners must have flattered themselves with ill-founded hopes, but they humbly submit that they were led into this error by a combination of various circumstances, and of high authorities; that their original undertaking was sanctioned by the legislature of Ireland, and though the Grand Canal Company, in their letter to the directors general, more than insinuate that that was chiefly effected by the influence of those concerned, the petitioners cannot deem so unworthily of the constituted authorities, as to suppose that the great council of the nation was led from its duty by personal consideration for them; and that, from the commencement of the Royal Canal to this hour, every step of its progress was

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approved by the board of Inland Navigation, and though the imputation of partiality has been cast on that board also from the same quarter, yet the petitioners cannot conceive that names so high and honourable stand in need of any vindication: and that even the Grand Canal Company contributed to the error into which the petitioners have fallen, as they looked in silence on the contract of 1801, by which the petitioners were bound to proceed to Coolnahay, far from the line which leads to the northward, and also to reduce their toils, a circumstance which is now complained of as so ruinous to the Grand Canal, though the injury, if any, has happened by means which were the natural consequence of the reduction, and as such must have been then foreseen, to which it is not immaterial to add, that the Grand Canal Company had then the same rights of petitioning and appealing which they have now exerted with effect, as the whole treaty was founded on an advance of money out of the same public fund; so that it may perhaps not be too much to infer that the Grand Canal Company willingly permitted the petitioners to advance to Coolnahay, several miles out of the line now suggested, in the hope that, after such a waste of their time, their money and their credit, a blow given to them must be mortal; and that, whether this was so designed or not, its effects have been such as to reduce the petitioners to the necessity of now bringing forward a statement of their present condition, and of imploring the interference of the House in their favour; and that the petitioners have, as already mentioned, completed their Canal to a distance of 46 miles; that in so doing they have expended, with diligence and fidelity, the original subscription of 134,000 l., the grant then made of 66,000 l., the farther sum of 38,964 l. raised by an increase of their stock, the loan of 25,000 l., the sum of 95,866 l. 7s. 10 d. purchased by the reduction of their tolls, and divers sums raised by them on debentures, as above mentioned, at several times, for no less an amount than 842,550 l.; that they are still at a considerable distance from the river Shannon, from whence their chief profits were expected to arise, and have no funds to enable them to arrive at it; and that the general confidence in their future prosperity has hitherto afford-ed the petitioners great facility in raising money, and, looking with confidence to an increase of income sufficient to answer all
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demands, they considered themselves well warranted in accepting the sums thus freely advanced; but their hopes of reaching the river Shannon are now at an end; without effecting that object they see no prospect of any considerable increase to their tolls; and at present the whole income of the petitioners is little more than sufficient to defray the necessary charges of their establishment; and that the stockholders of the Royal Canal Company amount to no less than 283 persons; that it is now more than 20 years since those persons and their predecessors advanced to the funds of the Company sums amounting to 172,964 l., which in so great a length of time has produced to them little more than the common interest of their money for a single year, insomuch, that every holder of stock to the amount of 100 l. is at this day a loser in money alone to the amount of 250 l.; and now, after so great privations, and after so many years of unremitting attention to the business of the Company and of the public, they find themselves bereft of the hope which sustained them, and consigned to the wearisome office of directing repairs, scrutinizing accounts, and regulating the details of an income that is nearly exhausted in the expence of collecting it; and that however gloomy this picture may be, the calamitous situation of the creditors of the Company presents not a more cheering aspect; payments of interest and annuities have been hitherto indeed regularly made, by reason of which circum-stance and of the general confidence in the future prosperity of inland navigation, the debentures of the Company have been sought for with avidity by all those to whom punctuality of payment is of the greatest importance, by unmarried women, by the aged and infirm, the orphan, and the widow; many of them have entrusted the whole of their little properties on this security, and the eagerness of competition with which payment is sought for as soon as due is the strongest proof of its importance to the holders of the debentures; and when, therefore, it is considered, that the sums so due for interest and annuities amount to no less than 49,824 l. 10 s. yearly, and that without the aid of the House, the whole must from this moment cease, it is impossible to think without horror, on the extent of misery that may ensue, and that amidst this scene of calamity the public and the inhabitant-of Dublin alone have profited by the under-

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taking, the country has a canal of perfect construction amply supplied with water, communicating with the capital and the sea, extending more than 46 miles through tracts of the highest fertility', and subject to tolls so low as to be no obstruction to trade or intercourse, and Dublin has for its pipes an abundant supply of the purest water; and that the petitioners therefore in their distress have this consolation, that their time and labour, though lost to themselves and their families, have not been unprofitable to their country; and that the petitioners having now no other refuge, humbly beg leave to approach the House with this representation of their case, and to implore from its humanity and wisdom such relief as may seem meet, the petitioners hereby offering to accede to any terms that may be thought reasonable; if the House shall deem it proper that the northern line leading to Roosky, or any other line of canal should be adopted, and are disposed to defray the expense of it, the Royal Canal Company are willing to devote to it their time, industry, and experience; but in that case, they presume, they will not be thought unreasonable in hoping that the payment of the annuities secured by their debentures, together with the necessary expenses of the establishment, may be provided for by the public until the funds of the company shall be sufficient for that purpose; and that if on, the other hand it shall be thought more advisable that the Royal Canal should become public property, and be placed under the management of public officers, the petitioners are ready to accede thereto on such terms as may be agreed on; and therefore praying, such relief in the premises as to the House shall seem fit."
Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the table.

ARMY UNCLAIMED PRIZE MONEY BILL.
Mr. Longpresented to the House, "an Account of the several sums of money received from the Army Prize Agents by the deputy treasurer of Chelsea hospital, under the authority of the acts of the 45th and 49th of his present Majesty, specifying the dates of the capture, the dates of the general distribution to the captors, and when paid into Chelsea hospital, with the appropriation of the several sums, to the 24th of March 1811," He then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the 49th of his Majesty, which
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had been enacted for the purpose of affording every opportunity to the soldier to procure his Prize Money, which, if not claimed within a certain time, went to the chest of Chelsea hospital. In consequence of that Act, 280,000 l. which had been in the hands of agents, was paid into the hospital. As much of that money had been acquired in the early part of the war, in the years 1793 and 1794, it was very probable that it would never be claimed. It was therefore considered proper that instead of permitting it to remain useless, the public service should be benefited by it, taking care that sufficient provision should be made to discharge any claims which might hereafter be made on this fund. This regulation would render necessary a number of new clauses, which were as follow; 1st, to indemnify the treasurer for any sums paid out of the unclaimed prize money for the public service; 2d, to enable him to pay sums under 20 l. without obliging the party claiming to administer to the person deceased, the expenses of administering being so great, as in many instances, to deter individuals from claiming small sums; 3d, to enable the treasurer to direct precepts to army paymasters who had not distributed the sums entrusted to them; 4th, to permit the treasurer to pay prize money to the representatives of foreign soldiers, in the British service, who had died intestate, without calling on them to administer, and 5th, to authorise an account to be laid before parliament, at stated periods, of the unclaimed army prize money.—Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

STATE OF THE THEATRES OF THE METROPOLIS.
Mr. Taylorprefaced his motion upon the present state of the Theatres in the Metropolis with a few observations, which were scarcely audible in the gallery. He stated that before they proceeded to consider nest session the propriety of erecting an additional Theatre, it was, he thought, desirable that they should in the interim endeavour to ascertain the existing state of the drama, as well as the privileges exercised by the present theatres, to the monopoly of exclusive departments in the drama. He did not mean at present to go into any sort of detailed reasoning upon the question. The abstract principle upon which his motion and all similar applications, were grounded, was this simple proposi-

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tion, namely, that the innocent and instructive amusement of the public was in itself a good, that to that good the public had prima facie an unquestionable right, and that no restrictions should be put upon the enjoyment of that right, but upon cogent reasons for so doing, and that any extraordinary restriction could only be justified upon the grounds of absolute necessity, or those of a political expediency, rendered by circumstances nearly as obligatory. The investigation he now in-tended to move for became the more necessary on account of the mummeries now exhibiting in some of the theatres, which indeed called for the interposition of that House, as having so direct a tendency to deprave the taste and injure the morals of the people, and which ought of necessity to be put down. He did not mean that his present motion should interfere at all with the interests of the renters in the late Drury lane theatre. He then moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the present state of the Dramatic and Scenic Representation at the Theatres in this metro-polis, together with the grounds and nature of the privileges and immunities claimed by the several Theatres, and the restraints imposed there by upon the amusements of the public
Mr. Whitbreadwas greatly surprised that the hon. member should make such a motion after what had so lately passed, or that he could find any one to second his motion. Now, that the accounts of Drury-lane theatre were nearly disentangled, the proprietors satisfied, and a new scheme for re-building it in full progress, it was strange that an hon. member should think he had found out the proper time for throwing the whole into confusion. He was quite sure the hon. member did not mean to exhibit any hostility to the interests of the sufferers at Drury-lane, but he must have been conscious that the appointment of a committee to inquire into the abstract merits of any question touching the monopoly, must tend to throw cold water upon the present public inclination to the undertaking. If it was objected that there were not theatres enough, why not wait for the re-building of Drury-lane, and then ascertain whether more were wanted? A misconception had gone abroad relative to the nature of the Drury-lane patent. So well was parliament convinced of its solidity, that the subscribers to the rebuilding were, by the act of parliament,
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enjoined to pay in the first instance a large proportion for the patent. He had no idea that the House could entertain the motion after what it had lately done, and would advise the honourable member to withdraw it.
Mr. Taylor,after a few words, consented to withdraw the motion.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS BILL.
Mr. R. Dundasmoved the second reading of the East India Bonds Bill.
Lord Folkestoneopposed the Bill, which, he contended, the present situation of the Company's affairs did not warrant, there being at present a balance of 3,000,000 l. against the company, arising from bills drawn in India. There was a Committee then sitting for the purpose of examining into their affairs, and he thought more information should be submitted to the House, before they agreed to the present measure.
Mr. Wallacesaid, that whenever any plan was proposed for the accommodation of the East India Company, there was al-ways to be found a set of gentlemen on the other side of the House ranged in op-position against it. The present Bill had no other object than to enable the East India Company to raise money on their own credit in the way most convenient to them.
Mr. Creeveyobserved, it was singular enough that the company, when they had a revenue of seven millions, should have a surplus of one million, while now that they have a revenue of fifteen millions, they have no surplus. One was at a loss to conceive that with so great an increase of revenue, the bond debt of the company should go on increasing as it did. The public ought to be put in possession of a state of the company's affairs, as was done in 1793. The celebrated Committee up stairs, which had now sat for four years, and which during the present session had not in fact been occupied altogether more than four hours, or six at the utmost, seemed to have avoided all trouble of discussion of the company's affairs. Before such a measure as the present was allowed to pass, the public ought to be put in possession of the true state of the company's affairs; and he pledged himself to move Resolutions of fact on that subject in a subsequent stage of the Bill, and to prove that the company were actually six millions worse than nothing. In order to give time for the production of the information on which alone

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the present proceeding could be with propriety founded, he moved as an Amendment, "That the Bill be read a second time that day se'nnight."
Mr. R. Dundassaid the hon. gent. (Mr. Creevey) had wandered quite away from the subject of debate. The question was, whether the Company were or were not to be allowed to raise two millions on their own credit, not to increase their present debt, but by borrowing money in England, to enable them to pay off their debt in India. Bills of exchange had been drawn on the Directors from India, for which it was necessary that funds should be provided. The hon. gent. asked for more explanation, but what more explanation was in reality wanted? It was merely a transfer of a sum from creditors, to whom they were paying eight and ten per cent. to other creditors in this country at 5 percent. With respect to the Committee, they had reported fully on the accounts up to 1809, and the moment the accounts for the ensuing years could be got ready, they would be submitted to the House. He spoke of the absurdity of the hon. gentleman's treating the affairs of a Company in possession of the revenues of an immense empire, as he would treat the affairs of a private merchant, maintaining that if they could not instantly pay off their debt, they were to be considered as bankrupt. Could Great Britain pay off her debt instantly, and was Great Britain to be considered, therefore, bankrupt? But had the Company means to set against their debt." He maintained they had, and on grounds fully as authentic as any thing which he believed the hon. gent. could produce. Last year, for in-stance, there was an estimated deficit; but in place of that, there was a surplus of 3 to 400,000 l. Moreover, the interest of the debt in India, had been reduced by the able management of lord Minto, from 8 or 10 to 0 per cent. which alone would occasion a saving of 500,000 l. The hon. gent. had thought fit to wonder why the charges had not been reduced so much as they ought to have been, though there had been a peace of six years. But the establishment in India had not been reduced; several expeditions had been fitted out there, a great part of the ex-pence of which would fall upon the East India Company; and there had been also occasional disturbances in India, The debt of the Company was not now more than 23 millions. He asked the
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hon. gent. when he meant to bring forward his vindictive motion against the East India Company, for their breach of faith in making a dividend of 10 per cent?
Mr. Creeveysaid he should not bring forward his motion till the Report of the right hon. gent., the Chairman of the Committee, was discussed.
After a few words from lord Archibald Hamilton and Mr. Grant, the motion for the second reading was agreed to without a division.

BRITISH AND IRISH MILITIAS INTERCHANGE BILL.
Mr. Secretary Rydermoved the second reading of the Militia Interchange Bill. While on his legs he thought it right to apprise the House of certain additional clauses, which it was his intention to move in the Committee. These he then communicated in substance to the House, and at the same time gave notice of certain regulations with respect to the pay of the soldiers, which he had it in contemplation to move in the Committee of Supply.
Colonel Stanleythought the effect of the measure would be to throw the landed interest out of the service, and to create dissensions among the soldiers. He had been once to Ireland; he then went of his own free will; but if this Bill were passed he would not go again. He would be most happy to promote the interests of Ireland; but he did not conceive he should do this by giving his support to the proposed arrangement; and, thinking as he did, that it would be likely to give a death blow to that constitutional force, which had rendered such essential service to the country, he should conclude by moving as an amendment, "That the Bill be read a second time on that day three months."
Mr. Elliotcould not see the necessity of the measure, and he must learn its wisdom from somebody else. He thought the Bill would be apt to introduce an un-soldierly spirit into the Militia. An option of going was to be given as he understood the Bill: but this very option was the worst form of making the service of the country acceptable. The officers in some regiments would choose to go to Ireland; in others the men would choose it; and a disagreement would arise between the men and their officers. The spirit of canvassing would be excited among the soldiers: there would be an Irish and an English

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party. Those gentlemen of Ireland, who were most necessary to such a country, would be taken away, and all those inconveniences were to be raised without the pretence of a necessity. He should vote for the Amendment.
Mr. Parnellintended giving the Bill his support, if a provision were made in it for securing the Catholic soldier the free enjoyment of his religion. If no such provision were made, he should feel it his duty to oppose the measure.
Lord A. Hamiltonobjected to the Bill, in as far as it would go still farther to prevent qualified persons from accepting of commissions in the Militia. A gradual decrease in qualified officers had been going on year after year, and the present Bill would go to sweep off all those below the rank of field officers. Formerly balloted men bore a great proportion to substitutes in the militia, now they were not as one to ten. If we were neither to have officers nor men, in this our constitutional force, in the old and constitutional form, it would be better at once to annihilate it entirely. He begged to ask one question of the right honourable Secretary; the officers in the militia of this country were subject to the Income Tax; in Ireland there was no such tax. Now, he wished to be informed if the officers of the Irish Militia, who came to serve in this country, were to be exempted from this tax; or if they were to come and serve here with 10 per cent, off their income?
Lord Palmerstonthought the motion the most important that had been made since the Union, and could not but think the Union incomplete till it was adopted. The security it would afford against invasion was one great object, but that was second in importance to another consideration. The immense advantages likely to result from its uniting all classes of both countries, was an object more desirable, and one which, as it was certain of being attained, he regarded as that which most strongly recommended the adoption of the measure.
Mr. Whitbreadwas convinced the effect of the measure would be to take all country gentlemen out of the militia. He should not, however, oppose the Bill in its second reading; but if clauses were not introduced in the Committee, protecting the Irish Catholic soldier in the exercise of his religion in this country, and also protecting him in the free exercise of his religion as he would be protected in Ireland,
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and that, too, not by sufferance merely, but as a matter of right, he should oppose the Bill in its further stages.
Colonel Ellisonwas of opinion that the Union with Ireland, of which he thought highly, should be drawn closer and closer by every tie of amity, affection and community of intercourse. The present measure, on this feeling, had his entire concurrence, he felt, and he trusted every other Militia officer would feel, that, to the attainment of so grand a national object, all personal, and therefore, inferior, objects of convenience ought to yield. There should, in his opinion, be no more distinction between England and Ireland than between Lincoln and York.
Lord George Cavendishthought the length of the war had already rendered the militia service irksome, but the present measure would make it disgusting. He did not know if ministers were prepared to do away qualifications entirely, but he was satisfied that the present measure would go far to render that necessary.
Col. Duckettthought that here a temporary evil was to be endured when likely to produce a permanent good.
Mr. C. W. Wynnobjected to the present Bill, as giving to his Majesty the right of sending a whole regiment over to Ireland without any officer whatever above a Serjeant; in which case, he asked, could it any longer be considered as a regiment of militia? If this species of force was only to retain the name, and to lose the essence, all the advantages resulting from it must fall to the ground. The alternative was by this put to every officer in the militia, either to go to Ireland when called on, or to resign. He must protest against this measure as being the last step in the conversion of the militia force of the country into one of a very different description. He hoped the right hon. Secretary of State would not hurry the Bill through the House, and that he would not move for its being committed before that day se'nnight, in order that the officers of the Militia might have time to peruse the Bill.
Mr. Secretary Ryderexpected no advantage would be found to result from its being so long postponed. He thought the House would be as well prepared to decide on the merits of the case by Monday, as by the time proposed. The more it was canvassed and considered, the more he was confident, it would be approved. It might be satisfactory to the House to know that he had in his possession offers from

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various regiments to serve in Ireland. One objection started to the measure was, that it would expose the officers to greater expences than they would otherwise be liable to bear. This was not correct. Whether they took the case of an officer leaving his family at home, and being in consequence obliged to sustain the expence of visiting them, or that of an officer being at the charge of taking his family with him, still it would be found, that the expence and inconveniences to which they would be exposed, were less than those which they already experienced, as the law now stood, and the distance which they would be taken from their homes less than that to which they were at present liable to be marched. The only inconvenience (if there were any inconvenience at all), was the few hours sail which they must have on their way from the one country to the other. Leave of absence would be then as easily obtained as now, and the discipline of the Militia would not be likely to suffer by the alteration. It had been said on a former night, that the Irish Militia in England were to be exactly in the same situation as they were in Ireland. The Bill, however, contained one clause which legally be construed into a provision of the nature required. Even that, though, he contended was not necessary, because the situation of the Militias, interchanged by a Bill of this sort, would (unless provision were made to the contrary) be the same as if they had remained at home. Under all the circumstances, it was not his intention to introduce any provisions of the nature recommended, for the operation of the Bill would be such, that the Irish soldier would be in the same situation in this country as in Ireland.
Mr. Whitbreadinquired whether they were to be at liberty in religious affairs, from privilege, or from indulgence, as there was a material difference between privilege to which they had a right, and indulgence bestowed at pleasure?
Mr. Secretary Rydersaid, whether it was derived from privilege, from indulgence, or from right, they would be the same as in Ireland.
Colonel Bastardcontended that the adoption of the measure would be a breach of faith. If the Militia had answered the end for which it was formed, it would now be better to put an end to it than to make the proposed arrangement. For his part, he would rather make a campaign or two in Spain or Portugal, than go to Ireland;
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as in the former case he might be of some service, in the latter none.
The Bill was then read a second time, and committed for Monday.