Commons Sitting of 27 March 1811

IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES—MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, he did not consider any apology to the House necessary for his excepting last night the Resolution respecting Maynooth College from the other Resolutions agreed to in the Committee of Irish Supply, because the education of the Catholic clergy of Ireland, a clergy who had the charge of four millions of souls intrusted to them, was an object of sufficient importance to deserve the most serious attention of the House. The College of Maynooth was established by parliament in 1795, for the education of 200 Irish Catholic students. For this purpose the sum of 8,000 l. was then granted. Prior to that period he was sorry to say, such was the want of humanity in the government of Ireland, that it was necessary for the Catholic students to

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seek for education in foreign parts; and when the grant in 1795 took place, not fewer than 500 students were on an average educated abroad. As the institution was new, it was not thought proper to provide at first for more than 200 students. As the French war, however, continued, and the French power was everywhere established, the Irish Catholics were driven out of every corner of Europe; and in 1806 and 1807, the then ministry, thinking it expedient that the number of scholars should be increased to 250, came to parliament for an increase of the grant to 13,000 l. The first act, however, of the No Popery Administration was, to obtain the sanction of parliament to a reduction of one third of this sum. He could state from his general knowledge, that the College was not provided with such professors as was necessary for the proper education of the Irish clergy, though good professors could easily be obtained if anything like an inducement were held out. Government have allowed, in their liberality, the sum of 25 l. per head for the professors; and students equal to 16 d. per day; and yet they called on the House to vote to mere day labourers in the Dublin Society House 1s. 8d. per day. Could there be a greater indecency than such a paltry allowance to those professors, who ought to be among the most learned men of Europe? Could any thing be more indecorous than such an allowance? While they were allowing the librarian of the Maynooth College only 20 l. a year, they had thought proper to allow the sub-librarian of the Dublin Society 150 l. a year, and 35 l. a year to its chambermaids and porter. He had stated last night that all the other Irish grants were considerably increased, while this alone was reduced. The Protestant charity-schools had obtained an increase of 10,000 l. a year. He did not wish to say any thing against these schools, but he thought it strange, that whilst they were allowing 39,000 l. to the Protestant charity-schools consisting of 2,300 boys, they should allow only such a miserable pittance to those who have the charge of the morals of four millions of subjects. There was voted the other night to the non-conforming ministers and seceding clergy of Ireland 13,200 l. who represent only about half a million of the Irish population, while 4000 l. was deducted from the allowance to those at the head of four millions. What he had to complain of was, that the
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ministry should come to the House with false pretences, professing the utmost economy, but practising, in reality, the greatest profusion, with the exception of this penurious allowance. The other night 10,000 l. was granted for the printing of proclamations. From this sum 6,000 l, might safely be deducted. He was prepared to prove that this sum had been used for the most unworthy purposes. 23,000 l. was voted for stationary to the chief and under secretary's office,—of this 10,000 l. might safely have been given to the May nooth College. 32,000 l. had been given to the Board of Works. The greater part of this sum was employed in improving the houses of persons attached to the Irish government. What a contrast between the profusion of these allowances and the miserable pittance to the Maynooth College! Various other sums were given for objects of small importance: for instance 2,300 l. to the lottery offices. What an object to come in competition with the moral education of a nation! If they wished to economize, here was a field for them. He was told the other night, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the College had obtained all that it asked. In this there was a great deal of duplicity; he had no doubt that the present government had not been applied to for an addition. Why should they apply for an addition to a government which was reducing their present allowance, and which was making the most illiberal attacks on the whole Catholic body? A number of queries had been put by the Irish Secretary to the College, respecting the number of pupils and professors, the amount of contributions, the regulations of the College, &c.; but no query was thought proper to be put, whether the allowance from government was adequate to supply a sufficient number of clergymen to the Irish Catholics! If 500 students were requisite in 1795, surely the same number must be requisite at present, when the Catholic population of Ireland is greatly increased.—The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, shewed last night a degree of irritation against the institution, while he expressed a wish that it had never been established, that he could hardly have expected from him. However he might differ from that right hon. gent. on the subject of emancipation, he had yet too much respect for him to think that he could ever seriously entertain a wish that the Catholics of Ireland should be irreligious. Whatever their

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religion was, surely it was better that they should be instructed in that religion—that they should be religious than irreligious. He really could hardly conceive any person so bigotted as to be of a contrary opinion! Bigotry and ignorance could alone conceive the diffusion of education and instruction among the members of any religious society, incompatible with the security of the British constitution. Such a doctrine was the offspring of that spirit, which, beginning in plunder, ended in persecution: the spirit which prohibited intermarriages between the different bodies of the same community; the spirit which stirred up the father against the son, and the son against the father, and which prevented the education of the majority of a nation under pain of transportation. If this should be doubted, he could produce living witnesses to declare that they were compelled to seek their education among the rocks and woods for fear of transportation. Although he could not impute such a spirit of persecution to the right hon. gent. yet from the antipathy which he manifested to this institution, he could not but think, if he continued long to be minister, it were sincerely to be wished that he should change his sentiments. Would he prefer an education to the Catholics in a foreign land to an education at home? If not, why quarrel with the institution! Why throw out against it such illiberal insinuations? When he recollected the practice of the House of Commons in similar circumstances towards mere strangers, he was astonished at this neglect of their Catholic brethren. He could state of his own knowledge that there was a great deficiency of Catholic clergymen in Ireland, and he would appeal to the House on behalf of a people every way worthy of their attention, in behalf of a people who were once in a state of civilization, compared with the rest of Europe, who diffused their learning and knowledge to other nations, and whose former literary fame is on the record of several of the universities of Europe. Search the records of the universities of Munich, St. Gall, Padua, and Paris, nay search even the records of your own universities, Oxford and Cambridge, and it will be seen how great is the obligation which science and literature owe to the professors and learned men from that country, to which was now refused a liberal grant for an establishment, which had for its object the. education of those who are
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to inculcate the doctrines of Christianity among four millions of their fellow creatures, whom, while they were calling brethren, they were treating worse than the negroes of Africa, or the hindoos of India, towards whom they had exerted themselves for the extension of the light of the Gospel. He would read an extract from an English historian, shewing the protection which Ireland afforded to this country in the dark ages. Lord Little ton in his History of Henry 2, (quarto edition, p. 26), says, "About the middle of the 7th century (says the venerable Bede), numbers of the nobles and of the second rank of England left their country, and retired into Ireland, for the sake of studying theology, and leading there a stricter life. All these (he affirms) the Irish most willingly received, and maintained" at their own charge; supplying them with books, and being their teachers without fee or re ward."—"A most honourable testimony (says Littleton) not only to the learning, but also to the hospitality and bounty of that nation."—"Among many learned who were driven by the terror of this persecution (that of the Scandinavians) to take refuge abroad, none distinguished themselves more than Albin and Clement, whom the emperor Charles the Great re ceived in his court, and honoured with his favour. Of the last of these it is said, by a contemporary German writer, that through his instructions the French might vie with the Romans and the Athenians. John Erigina, whose surname denoted his country (Ere or Erin, being the proper name of Ireland), became soon afterwards famous for his learning and good parts, both in England and in France. Thus did most of the lights which in those times of thick darkness cast their beams over Europe, proceed out of Ireland." Such was the conduct of the ancestors of those Catholics, when the English were in a state of darkness, and the Irish were in a state of comparative civilization; and fed, cloathed, and protected them. Would they re fuse them this grant of 4,000 l. which could not injure them, or be in any way felt by the state, but which would greatly add to the comforts of this institution. Did they refuse it on a principle of economy? On such a principle they could not refuse it, because, on looking to their other grants, they would see nothing but luxury, extra vagance, and profusion. He should there fore move for the recommittal of the resolution.
Mr. Herbert of Kerryseconded the motion.
Sir T. Turtonsubmitted to the House whether the grant proposed to be made, could be considered adequate to the charity to be supported. He thought, that to come at this point, the amount of the grant had been fairly contrasted with the other items voted on the present occasion, as for instance, with the sum of 10,000 l. voted for the expence of proclamations. It was disgraceful that so great a sum should be voted for such a purpose, and only 9,000 l. be granted to the clergy, whose duty it was to instruct, or more properly to civilize the great mass of the country.
Mr. P. Moorecontended, that in voting a sum to the Maynooth College, the House did nothing more than give back to the Catholics a small part of the sum they had paid for the public good. The ends of all governments were for the benefit of the governed; instead of which, it seemed here to be the object to separate the government from the governed, and to render their interests completely independent of each other. This was a thing to be deplored, and it was a calamity daily growing on us.
The House then divided.

For the re-committal of the Resolution

12

For the original Resolution

30

Majority for the Resolution

—18