Commons Sitting of 15 March 1811

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Yorkerose for the purpose of moving the necessary resolutions for defraying the expences of those naval grants, known by the name of the Ordinaries and Extraordinaries of the Navy; the wear and tear, including the number of seamen with the attendant expences, all the miscellaneous grants, &c. having been al-ready voted. In addition to the Ordinaries
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and Extraordinaries, he should have the honour to propose a vote for the Transport service. It would have been unnecessary for him to intrude longer on the Committee at present, had it not been for a difference in the form of the Estimates of the present year. He would state the principle on which that change of form proceeded; and particularly as it applied to the Ordinary Estimates. The change had been in consequence of an act of last session, by which a great, and, in his opinion, an excellent alteration had been prescribed. Heretofore it had been customary to state in the various Ordinary Estimates the charges for pensions and superannuations under each head; the consequences of which were, a difficulty and confusion in discovering the total of that branch of expenditure. Not only had the form been confused, but many items had been omitted, and the Estimates had therefore not afforded the full information which was desirable. There was another circumstance also to which he wished to draw the attention of the Committee. Several charges for superannuation, &c. had heretofore been defrayed out of the fund created by the sale of old stores. By the act of last session it had been very judiciously directed, that henceforward all sums raised by the sale of old stores should be brought to account, and that the charges, which it had been customary to defray out of that sale, should be introduced in the Ordinary Estimates, and distinctly voted under their respective heads. With a view to the provisions of the act of last session, the present Estimates had been formed; and although they might not be completely correct in all their parts, he yet flattered himself that the errors were not very numerous or very material, and that they might be wholly avoided in the course of another year. Having said thus much, he would proceed as briefly as he could through the different heads, stating generally the increase or diminution of charge, and should then hold himself ready to afford any further information on the subject, that might be required by the Committee.
The first was the Ordinaries, which he reduced to three distinct divisions; the first, he meant, should include the salaries and expences of the civil department, together with the expences of the dock-yards, the principal officers, and commissioners; as also the salaries of the commissioners of the out-ports, and the different officers of

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the civil department now upon foreign stations; also the wages and victualling of the ships in ordinary, together with all the civil charges thereunto belonging. The second head should comprehend the half-pay of the navy, and also the military pensions, as distinguished from the civil pensions. The third head should include the superannuation, or the amount of salaries given to officers retiring from the civil department. He should now, before be proposed his Resolutions, shortly enumerate to the House the total expences for each of the two last years in each department, that the Committee might be enabled to compare at once the excess or decrease of each year in each particular branch of the different Estimates, accounting as he went along for the augmentation, where any such had occurred to any considerable degree.
First, then, the total amount of the expences of the Admiralty and Navy Offices for this year, amounted to the sum of 176,525 l. while those of last year did not exceed 174,087 l. leaving an increase under this head for the present year of 2,438 l. This increase was owing to the additional salaries and charges in lieu of the fund arising out of the sale of the old naval stores, which fund was now no longer applied to defray the expences of those offices. The increase was also owing to the addition made to the salaries of the clerks. The next head was that of the Dock-yards. The charge under this head, for the year 1810, amounted to 175,558 l.: for the year 1811, it amounted to 181,782 l. Here there was an increase of 6,224 l. which was owing to an augmentation of salary to the watchmen and guards in the Dock yards, together with an increase of their numbers. The next head was that of commissioners of out-ports and civil officers on foreign stations. Under this head the charge for the last year was 38,423 l.; for the present, 47,935 l. leaving an in crease for the present year of 9,512 l. With respect to Officers' Salaries, 2,510 l. went to defray the salaries of the masters-intendant of Gibraltar, Jamaica, and Lisbon; there was also an additional sum of 2,000 l. for the commissioners of Bombay and Madras, 1,000 l. each. The charge of ships in ordinary for the last year was 17,679 l. for the present, 44,672 l.; this great increase was owing to the paramount necessity of completing certain dock works, and erecting cranes at Deptford, Plymouth and Portsmouth, which were much wanted;
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great, however, as was this excess, it was counterbalanced by a corresponding saving in the victualling department. The charge of the Victualling Department for the last year amounted to 131,395 l. whereas that for the present year amounted but to 111,163 l. making a saving for the present year of 20,232 l. a saving which he thought highly creditable to the victualling board.
He now came to the second head of the Ordinaries, namely, the half-pay military pensions, &c. The estimate for the half-pay of the present year was 270,000 l.; last year it had been 250,000 l. There was therefore an augmentation of 20,000 l. owing to a greater number of officers being unemployed at the present period. In the estimate of military pensions, &c. there was an excess over the similar estimate of last year, amounting to 4,422 l. arising from a great number of small items, chiefly pensions granted to wounded officers, to the widows and children of officers, &c.—The third and last head of the Ordinaries was the superannuations of pensions to the civil officers of the navy. In the estimate for the present year would be found a vast number of items not included in the estimates of former years, and comprehending a large proportion of those charges which had hitherto been defrayed out of the fund arising from the sale of old stores. The apparent excess was necessarily considerable. The estimate of 1810 had been 23,683 l. the present estimate was 42,822 l.; so that there was an increase of 19,139 l. So much for the Ordinary Estimates of the navy, which altogether amounted to 1,578,413 l.
He would now proceed to the Extraordinaries, consisting of the expences in the King's yards, of the repairing and building of ships in merchants' yards, and of various works in different yards. By a difference of arrangement in the form of the estimate it would be found, that in the charge for the King's yards, although the items were of the same description as those in the estimates of last year, there was a decrease of 53,660 l. notwithstanding in the item of Milford there was an excess of 5,418 l. In the estimates, how-ever, of building and repairing in merchants' yards, and of works in the dock yards, there was a very great increase, owing to the necessity of completing several ships which had for some time been seasoning; to the works which were carrying on at Sheerness; and to the propos-

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ed wet dock at Malta, which last item alone was 10,000 l. The increase in these estimates of building and repairing in merchants' yards, and of works in the dock-yards, was 208,193 l. The total of the extraordinaries of the navy amounted, for the present year, to 2,046,200 l. In 1810, the total had been 1,841,000/.; the increase, therefore, was 205,200 l.
The next Estimate to which he should direct the attention of the Committee, was that for victualling the army at outports and foreign stations. That estimate for last year had been 854,314 l.; for the present year, it was 1,113,894 l. There was an increase, therefore, of 259,580 l. which was attributable to the large force employed abroad.
The only remaining subject of consideration was the. Transport Service. The estimate of the present year for this service very much exceeded that of 1810. This excess arose from two causes: the first, the great augmentation of prisoners of war, and the necessity of providing proper means for their security and maintenance; the second, the increase which bad taken place in the salaries and contingencies of the Transport office. The Estimates for the present year were as follow: for Transports, 2,752,662 l.; for Sick and Wounded, 352,462 l.; for Prisoners of War, 924,336 l.; and for Salaries, Stationary, &c. 33,538 l.; making a total of 4,062,999 l. Having thus gone through the whole of the Estimates, he should sit down, expressing his readiness to explain any points that might be considered as obscure. The Estimate of the Ordinaries of the Navy was 1,578,413 l., but as this account must be credited with the sum arising from the sale of old stores, &c. he should propose a Resolution including only the balance. He therefore moved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum not exceeding 712,041 l. 18 s.6d. be granted to his Majesty for defraying the ordinary expences of the Navy, for the year 1811."
Mr. Hutchinsonwished to call the attention of the Committee to the services of that brave and valuable body of men, the Royal Marines, whose courage and fidelity, whether afloat or ashore, had ever been proved in the strongest manner, and justly entitled them to the protection of the Community, The officers of the Royal Marines did not possess the advantages enjoyed by the officers of the army. There were 35,000 marines, but only 43
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or 44 field officers. Now the Artillery (which was a corps analogous in character), consisted of only 17,000 men; but there were more than double the number of field officers than there were in the marine service. Many of the senior captains of the royal marines had served 32 years; 17 of them as subalterns. There was not a captain in the artillery who had served more than 16 years. It was a great mortification to many of the officers of this valuable corps, to see a number of individuals admirals and generals, who were not in the service when they first entered upon it. It might be said, that owing to the few marines that were embarked in each ship, a small number of field officers was sufficient; but, in reply to this, he would ask, whether all officers in the navy and army, who were promoted to the rank of admiral and general, were so promoted because it was necessary to employ them? It was impossible but that this meritorious body of men must experience the greatest disappointment at not obtaining that which was the strongest stimulus and the dearest hope of the military profession—promotion after long and arduous service. He trusted that the Admiralty would be disposed to consider their claims, and to afford to them the relief which was their due.
Mr. Yorkecordially coincided in the sentiments of the hon. gent. with respect to the persevering gallantry and extensive utility of the royal marines. By the statement of the hon. gent. it would appear as if that corps, having been once on a similar footing with the army, had recently been placed in a situation of inferior advantage. The fact was, however, that they had been many years on the same footing as that on which they were at present. Respecting promotion, it ought to be considered that the officers of the Royal Marines were not permitted to purchase any of their commissions, as the officers of the army were; but as to rank, he was much misinformed if that did not keep pace with the standing of the marine officer, and if he did not by brevet rank with the major and with the colonel of the land army. However great his sense of the merits of this valuable and highly respectable corps, yet it appeared to him, from the nature of their service, that it would be impossible, with a view to public economy, by any great increase of field officers, to place them on the

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same footing as the officers of the army, and that for the cause hinted at by the hon. gent, namely, that the services of field officers on board a ship were not necessary. At the same lime it had been under the consideration of the Admiralty to find some means of augmenting the number of field officers in the royal marines, although he feared that it would not be possible to go the whole length wished for by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. Wilberforcehad been informed that the widows and orphans of that valuable corps, which had been mentioned in the course of the debate, were not provided for the same as those of the navy. He wished for some information on the subject.
Mr. R. Wardsaid a fund had been formed for their relief, called the Widow's Fund, and they had certain allowances beside.
Mr. Huskissonspoke strongly in favour of the system lately introduced of transporting soldiers in ships of war. He wished to know how far it had been acted upon, and what advantages it was found to possess over the old system of hiring transports? the new system he hoped would be acted upon as far as it possibly could, seeing it afforded a greater degree of safety to the troops. The next head on which he wished to speak was the practice of building king's ships in merchants' yards. He wished to know if in the present state of things it was necessary to continue the expences so incurred? It was now proposed to keep in commission six first-rate ships of the line; nine of the second, and 114 of the third; that was, six carrying above 100 guns; nine carrying above 74; and 114 carrying not under 74. Besides these, there remained in ordinary 117 sail of the line, reckoning no ships of the line that carried less than 74 guns, and including those building and repairing, in addition to a navy which would require 145,000 men to man it.—The total amount of the ships of the line in ordinary would be no less than 147. He merely wished to ask, if, under existing circumstances, it was necessary to continue to increase our navy in this proportion? At the breaking out of the war in 1793, when France had 80 sail of the line, and the fleets of Spain and Holland were opposed to us, we had but 120 sail of-the line. When hostilities last broke out after the Treaty of Amiens, France had but 50 ships of the line. Of these,
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he thought, half had been taken or destroyed, and if her present fleet, with the fleets of all the other powers of Europe, should appear combined against us, he thought they could not bring against us half the number with which we were prepared to meet them. In the course of the last war, 25 ships of the line were launched. In the present we had already launched 35, and there were, besides, from 30 to 40 building. When he considered that, in addition to those we had in ordinary, another navy equal to that at present afloat, it appeared to him that we might possibly be building ships faster than was necessary. When he recollected that at a period, when, from the then state of Europe, Great Britain had so much more to watch than at present, that; the expenditure of 15,000,000 l. and the maintenance of 120,000 men, were thought sufficient to uphold the interests of the country, he trusted he might be excused for entertaining the idea he held on the subject. Feeling this, he thought that more time might be allowed to the bringing ships to perfection in building, and that if the building of them were confined to the king's yards, the interests of the country would be best consulted.
Mr. Yorke, without at present entering at large into the question, stated it to be his opinion, that the substituting of king's ships for hired transports to a certain extent, was highly advisable. Whatever might be said against this system, on the score of economy, it was so strongly recommended by the safety and expedition which attended it, that it was constantly being enlarged upon from time to time. At present there were 14 ships so employed, two of which were two deckers, and the others large frigates. It was now so arranged, that when a ship was paid off, it was asked if it could go to sea no more as a ship of war? and if it could not, whether or not it would make a troop ship, and what would be the expence? The principle had been carried so far within the last year, that 10,000 infantry had actually been transported in ships of war He flattered himself, from the present state of the service, that many difficulties which formerly stood in the way were got ever, and that they would never be revived; and he could not see why, under such circumstances, they might not continue to extend the principle. With respect to the building of ships in merchants' yards, he had to state, that for some time

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past new works had been suspended. Those which stood in the present estimates, were only those to be completed, which were ordered some time ago. No new orders had been given, and such arrangements had been made that the building of large ships in the yards of merchants would at least be postponed. Some frigates, he must admit, had been ordered to supply a deficiency caused by a recent transaction.—He would now give some explanation why, in the present reduced state of the enemy's navy, it was necessary for this country to keep so many ships ready to act upon occasion. The circumstance of our being constantly under the necessity of being prepared to face the enemy in all parts of the globe, rendered it imperative upon us to keep up our numerical superiority. The plans of Buonaparté for establishing a formidable navy, when the extent of his means was considered, furnished a new motive for our keeping up our force, that we might be ready to meet and to crush his squadrons whenever they should come out. He had already 54 ships of the line ready, or nearly ready, for sea, and 44 frigates. In addition to these, according to the most accurate accounts they could get, he had building, and in ordinary, 46 sail of the line, which made the total of his navy amount to 110 ships of the line, and 44 frigates. A prodigious force, when the point to which it was directed was taken into consideration. His hon. friend was not quite right in his suppositions respecting the number of ships in commission. Their number did not exceed 100 ships of the line, including sixty-fours. Win respect to the amount of the ships it ordinary, though their number might at present be large, it would shortly be greatly diminished. An order had been given to break up the ships of war, frigates, and sloops, that could not be put in repair, as it was the worst policy to keep such by in ordinary. This measure was now in operation, and, from its progress, he hoped shortly the expences of the ordinaries would be less. When new ships could be laid up in ordinary, and seasored before they went to sea, it did them infinite service. The ships to be launched were intended to be so laid up, and when the time came at which it would he necessary to reinforce the British navy, it would be so reinforced as to maintain that superiority which was necessary to the vital interests of the country.—We ought not merely to have a numerical su-
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priority, but we ought to have such an imposing superiority, that the enemy could not even hope for success, or if he did entertain such a hope, our power should be such as to crush it at once.
Mr. Huskissonexpressed satisfaction at finding that king's ships had been made use of as much as possible. He was glad to see that every attempt was making to keep down expence, and that a considerable diminution of the number of ships in ordinary had already taken place.
Sir Charles Polesaid he had never heard so clear and satisfactory a statement as that of the right hon. gent., and thought there was as little to observe on the present Estimates as on any that were ever produced in that House. If we had 145,000 men, an increase of expence was not to be avoided. In several of the articles there was a considerable increase of expence, but they all carried with them some public benefit worthy of the expence by which it was to be purchased. There appeared in the Estimates no unwarrantable superannuations and pensions, as had frequently been seen in former Estimates He thought it very much to the credit of the First Lord of the Admiralty, that he had employed a battalion of that corps which deserved so well of the country, within the last year, in a manner in which they had never been employed before. He hoped the plan in agitation for improving Plymouth Sound would shortly be acted upon, as it was most essential that something like good anchorage should be afforded to the convoys which assembled there. The service of the public, he thought, would not admit of ships of war being only employed as transports, as it would be attended with double expence. He could not but hope that something would be done towards making the long-talked of harbour at Northfleet. At present we had no place to receive the ships that came in from all parts of the world; and such a place, in the present state of Europe, ought to be regarded as a sine qua non. The steps taken to provide for the clergy of the navy were such, that he could only congratulate the right hon. gent. on them. The right hon. gent. had, in his opinion, inspired the service with a confidence that was a tower of strength to the country. But at the same time, the hon. baronet said he could not but lament that the delays and consequent abuses of the Court of Admiralty was still a blot which required to be removed.

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To elucidate this, he exemplified, as one of the many instances, the blockading squadron under the orders of lord Duncan, in 1799, which had captured several ships that were acting in defiance of the blockade, that the proceeds of the ships so captured at that period were not distributed at this moment. It was important to the country that such evils should be prevented, and justice required that they should be done away.
Admiral Harveythought the use of ships of war instead of transports most economical. If they cost three times as much as transports, they were still ten times as cheap. The safely and expedition with which they conveyed the troops was of great consequence, and the means they afforded of frustrating the designs of the enemy could not be too highly appreciated. They had had a proof how superior they were to transports, the other day. While our transports were weather-bound at Falmouth, some men of war went out, and before the reinforcements could sail, we had information that one of those ships had entered the mouth of the Tagus.
Mr. Crokerrose to explain one item of the Estimates. The salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty was not exactly what it appeared to be there. He then proceeded to shew the manner in which it had been formerly stated in the Estimates, end the funds from which it had been paid. He concluded by informing the House, that his right hon. friend, in consideration of his holding another situation, had declined taking the full salary, and given up annually 3,000 l.
Mr. Wilberforcespoke in favour of the adoption of the Naval Arsenal at North-fleet.
Mr. Yorkesaid, the plans respecting the harbour at Northfleet and the break-water at Plymouth Sound, were under consideration, and the result was likely to be favourable to their adoption. Though under consideration, he was not at present authorised to include either in the Estimates, and it might be necessary for him hereafter to come forward with a Supplementary Estimate. He thought it highly desirable to have some depot for shipping in the River Thames, but at the same time he was not prepared to say they ought at once to go to the extent of the plan proposed. It might be begun on a great general plan, and carried on by degrees, as the circumstances and means of the country would admit.
Mr. Bastardmade an observation on the circumstance of the Commander in Chief of the Channel Fleet not having been out for two years.
Mr. Yorkeexplained the circumstance as arising from causes connected with the gallant attack in the Basque Roads.
Mr. Bankesthought, under the present circumstances, some attempt might have been made to reduce the Navy Estimates this year. The experiment might have been made with little danger. When it was considered how much there was of resource in national wealth, it must be felt that if our expences continued to increase, as in the present Estimates he perceived they did to the amount of between one and two millions, our finances would at last be found weak. He wished the House to be on their guard against dilapidating the resources of the nation.
Mr. Yorkesaid, it was to be hoped our recent conquests would ultimately prove a saving to the country, though they would not warrant a reduction of the present Estimates. It was thought necessary to send out 28 frigates to the Indian seas, to be ready to act in the event of the Isle of France not falling into our hands. Considering the lime which must pass before they could be ordered home, it might be expected they would not arrive till the end of the year. They must be provided for in the mean time, and therefore no retrenchment could be made at present. He particularly wished to reply to the assertion of his hon. friend, that the excess of the present Estimates was between one and two millions. He apprehended he would find it was not more than 306,000 l. when he took into consideration the arrangement which had been made in framing the present Estimates.
Mr. Croker, adverting to what had been said with respect to the detention of prize-money, stated, the complaints of every individual were attended to, however trivial the sum; and if the agent were found to have abused his trust, he was deprived of his licence.
Sir C. Polegave a further account of the delays to which he had before alluded.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas sorry no gentleman was present who could give an official account of the circumstances to which the allusion had been made. He must, however, in justice to the individual before whom such cases were decided, declare, that no man could be more anxious to avoid improper delay,

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When they remembered how often such things had been satisfactorily explained, the House ought at least to suspend their judgment in his absence. With respect to the Estimates, highly satisfactory as they were, it was unnecessary for him to say much, but he thought if his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) had had the making of them up, be could not have made them amount to less, with a due regard to the interests and security of the country. It was necessary, in framing them, to consider what might be wanted in all parts of the world. Those wants, he could assure them, would be found much greater than any gentleman could have an idea of, who was not acquainted with the detail. Our naval superiority was necessary to our best interests. Having gained the ascendancy, we ought not now to lessen our force, so that we must again renew the contest for that ascendancy. It was true that with a smaller force than that opposed to us, we had gained the superiority; but it would be unwise to risk letting it be snatched from us again, by failing to preserve a numerical advantage. The burdens which the people were obliged to bear pressed heavy on his mind, and he was conscious they were as severely felt by his right hon. friend.
The several Resolutions were then put and carried.