Commons Sitting of 9 July 1811

INDICTMENT AGAINST DE YONGE FOR SELLING GUINEAS.
Lord Folkestonerose to move for certain papers, upon the subject of the prosecution against a man of the name of De Yonge, convicted of selling guineas. To this motion he understood
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there was no objection, and, he should therefore call for copies of the indictment, under which the prosecution was carried on twelve months since. The case of this man was, in his opinion, a peculiarly hard one: he had been prosecuted under an obsolete statute passed in the reign of Edward the 6th, which provided a punishment for what was thereby constituted a crime. Upon that prosecution he was convicted, but a point of law was urged by his counsel, and reserved by the Judge who tried him for the opinion of the twelve judges. The question for consideration was, whether the act imputed to the defendant was a crime or not. Tue noble lord saw nothing but hardship in the case, for De Yonge had done nothing more than what bankers and merchants were constantly in the habit of doing and of course were amenable for it under the statute alluded to, namely, paying a premium for gold and silver, not certainly for any unjust uses, but to carry their business on. The act imposed a punishment both on buyer and seller. When persons of such great consequence in the state were amenable, it was rather hard to select an unknown individual like De Yonge for prosecution. When the arguments came on, the decision was delayed from term to term on account of their not being complete; and it was not until the expiration of twelve months that De Yonge was enabled to obtain a decision, which was in his favour, and he was acquitted by the opinion of the twelve judges, they being of opinion that no prosecution could lie. Under these circumstances, he wished to bring the matter before the House, in order that some remedy might be applied to prevent a recurrence of the evil, De Yonge having been put to great expence in defending himself, and to much inconvenience, by the great delay before the decision was known. The noble lord then moved for a copy of the Indictment found against De Yonge for selling guineas; and also of the record of all sub-sequent proceedings had thereupon.
The Attorney Generalshould not have been surprised at the motion of the noble lord, if he had imputed to those who carried on the prosecution against De Yonge any unnecessary delay, or improper conduct in bringing it on for trial; not having so done, he could not see on what grounds he desired the papers. He had not imputed blame to any one, and with respect to the delay which had necessarily taken

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place, that did not depend on the prosecutors. It arose from circumstances which could not be avoided. In some cases the judges decided immediately; in others, involving like the present a question of much importance, they wished for further time for consideration. They had heard, not as the noble lord supposed, incomplete arguments, but arguments proceeding from the minds of some of the most learned men at the bar. Wishing to hear further arguments, they delayed their decision until those doubts which were considerable, were entirely removed. They then gave their opinion in favour of an acquittal. He saw no reason for the motion, and should oppose it.
Lord Folkestoneadmitted that great learning, and much research had been displayed in the arguments. He did not mean by stating that the arguments were incomplete to impute a defect, but to shew that the judges were not satisfied with them.
The motion was then put and negatived.

GOLD COIN AND BANK NOTE BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, before he moved the first reading of the Bill brought from the Lords, he wished to make a few observations respecting it, both as to its provisions, and to the circumstances by which he was induced to give it his support. It was with a sentiment of deep regret that he could even come to parliament for the purpose of recommending such a Bill, but this sentiment became much stronger from a consideration of the advanced period of the session, and the limited attendance that could be expected on a discussion of such peculiar importance. The regret that he felt in the first place was founded on the recollection that for the last fourteen years the paper of the Bank of England had been able to uphold itself in public estimation. During those fourteen years, trials and exertions had been undergone by the country of the severest and most extensive nature, difficulties of unexampled magnitude had been encountered, and yet the circulating paper had maintained its credit. Through this long period of danger and of exertion, while the military operations of the country abroad were carried on upon a scale the most extensive, bank notes had retained their current value, and the prosperity and strength of the, country, had flourished without diminution or decay. It was, then, not our, great and glorious
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expeditions, it was not our extended and powerful establishments, it was not the continued and unabated exertions of the country against a foreign enemy, and in support of its liberties and its existence, that had created the necessity of having recourse to any measure of this description. An imperious necessity did, however, now exist for its adoption, and he begged leave to state in what manner that necessity had originated, and the reason why that necessity had only become recently apparent. This would serve to explain why ministers had not deemed it necessary to propose any similar Bill at an earlier period, and why they felt it their duty to the country to give it their support at the present late period of the session. A noble-man of high rank and great political distinction and large landed property, had thought it proper and advisable, after having hitherto received the rents of his estates in the ordinary currency of the country, to give a general notice to his tenants, that from the period of that notice, issued immediately before the usual period of half yearly payments, he would receive only gold or paper estimated by the price of gold in the market. This notice, whether intentionally or otherwise he did not presume to determine, was not declared, till the time when it was well known that Parliament was on the point of separating. He did not mean to insinuate that the noble lord was actuated with any other views than such as became his rank and station in society. He did not wish to attribute any improper motives in supposing him to be influenced by his own theories on the subject, and a desire of enforcing them by practical examples. The impression on his mind when he first heard of the circumstance, which was before it was mentioned in Parliament, was that it did not of itself call for any legislative interference to guard against any consequences which it might occasion. He was then persuaded, that a system which had so long existed, and under which the country had so long prospered, might safely be left to stand upon its own merits, and to support its character without the aid of any parliamentary enactment. He felt, indeed, that the conduct of the noble lord was certainly productive of some alarm, but not of a size or nature to alter his opinion, until he found to his surprize, that instead of being discountenanced and condemned by all those whose opinions

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would have been likely to have an effect on that noble lord, it was defended and extolled as just, and even as patriotic. He had conceived, that the noble lord, finding no encouragement from the opinions, any more than from the conduct of his friends, would have at length seen the propriety of desisting from his purpose. It was probable, he thought, that when the noble lord reflected that those whose conduct had previously resembled his own, were exclusively pedlars, and Jews, and smugglers, he would not persevere. When he found, however, to his astonishment that he was deceived in this expectation, that the direct contrary was the case, that the noble lord's friends, his advocates, and his panegyrists, were among those who had a great lead and influence, although not so great perhaps as they imagined; then it was that he felt convinced of the expediency, and of the necessity of taking some step before the prorogation of Parliament, to prevent the effect which such doctrines and examples, proceeding from such high quarters, might produce on the community at large. No doubt the noble lord himself thought he was acting a most admirable part, and one that reflected on him the highest credit, but at the same time he would declare that he could conceive no act whatever, that in proportion to the limited sphere of an individual was calculated to produce such formidable effects against the interests of society, as that of the noble lord which had imposed on them the necessity of adopting the present Bill.—He had now stated the reasons which had induced ministers to decline pressing any measure of this description, and, he trusted, sufficiently proved the injustice of the reproaches which had been urged against them on this account. It had appeared to him impossible, that the old adherents of Mr. Pitt, and those who had approved of the Restriction in 1797, could oppose a measure formed on the same principle, and rendered necessary by similar causes of a more extended operation; or that the supporters of Mr. Fox, on the other hand, could disapprove of a Bill, the professed object of which was to prevent what they so much deprecated, the establishment of two prices. Those who had maintained the opinions of the Bullion Committee, and in particular he wished to allude to the hon. and learned member who was the chairman of that Committee, and had consequently held forth the expediency of
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suffering the intervention of two years before the period of resuming cash payments, ought surely to come forward in aid of the Bank in the mean time. He was aware that it had been asserted from high authority, and asserted with great confidence, that at no antecedent period was the gold more plentiful or cheaper than it was at present. This was certainly at variance with all that had been hitherto heard, and notwithstanding the assertion came from men who imagined that the enjoyed and monopolized all the talent and statesman-like knowledge of the country, he had no hesitation to say it was most preposterous and absurd. He should have thought it the duty of those who had been instrumental in causing the original restriction, not to attempt to depreciate the paper, which, if it was altered in its nature, had been altered by themselves. After all that had been said by many who appeared to wish to oppress and stigmatise all who refused to admit their superior wisdom, and to idolize their superior talents, could any thing be more manifestly unjust, than that a person having 6,000 l. in the funds, and renting a farm of 300 l. per annum, should be obliged to receive the interest of the former in paper, and pay the latter in gold at its present excessive price. It would be highly desirable, he readily agreed, to avoid making bank notes a legal tender; but if, from the state of the country, from any accidental alarm, or other causes, it might no longer be desirable, he was prepared to say that it might become a proper and expedient measure. In the year 1797, Mr. Pitt had himself entertained great doubts as to the policy of their making the notes legal tender; and those doubts were, he believed, chiefly removed from his mind by the meeting of the merchants, and the universal disposition displayed to take the notes without any such legal enactment. He saw in his place an hon. alderman (Combe), who had then inquired if it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose the legal tender between individuals as well as between government and the subject, to which he answered, that he believed it to be unnecessary. When interrogated as to the probability of its becoming necessary, he replied that it was impossible to declare; Mr. Fox then wished to know his opinion respecting the tendency of the measure to create that effect, to which Mr. Pitt answered, that he had no opinion (Hear! hear!)

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He might quote sir F. Baring, no mean authority, on a question of this kind, in confirmation of the opinion that the policy commenced in the year 1797, with respect to the issues of the bank, must necessarily terminate in making bank notes a legal tender. Still, however, it was a point to which he should very unwillingly accede, and which he confidently hoped would be found an unnecessary measure, both from the injustice of the proceeding, which must lead to it, and the odium that bad already attached to the conduct which he had before referred to. The comparison instituted between the paper currency of this country and the assignats in France, at least admitted of this consolation, that when the restriction was originally proposed, the same sort of observation was made, the same gloomy predictions uttered, and the same confident assertions of our being not on the verge, but in the very gulph of ruin. We had, however, since passed fourteen years, and during the whole period had increased in external strength, in a ratio equal to our internal prosperity. Invasion was then declared to be a less evil than such an attack on the financial credit of the empire, yet invasion had been since prevented, and the financial credit of the empire sustained. But could any men, except for the purpose of raising an outcry, or realizing the mischief which they affected to deplore, sincerely mean to say, that the paper of the bank of England bore any resemblance whatever to the French assignats? The whole amount of the bank issues had never exceeded 25,000,000 and they were at present not more than 23,000,000, leaving to the whole supply of the national circulation only an addition of 13,000,000 upon the amount in 1797, previous to the restriction. In one year France issued not less than 50,000,000, in the following 25,000,000 more, and in the course of five years, not less than a thousand millions. Here was a sum far exceeding our national debt, while our issues had never exceeded one third of our annual revenue. The present Bill was intended to guard only against an improper and injurious alarm; and for this purpose it simply took away the process of distress for rent upon a proffered payment in bank notes. This was proposed by an hon. gentleman in 1797, but opposed by Mr. Pitt, on the ground that no reason existed in the feeling or disposition of the country to require it. Mr. Fox,
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however, even then supported it.—Much had been said respecting Ireland, and the inconsistency of not extending this Bill to that country. The reason, however, simply was that the cause and object of the Bill were new in this country, but not so in Ireland, where two prices had in fact prevailed before the restriction on the bank took place. He was ready to allow, also, that it was unadviseable to interfere in contracts between man and man; but the act of 1797 bad al-ready altered that sort of relation, and we were in a situation in which it was notorious that the public creditor could receive no-thing but paper. Under these views, and upon these considerations, he moved that the Bill be read a first time.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that although it was unusual to enter at large into any discussion upon the first reading of a Bill, yet as the right hon. gentleman had given so ample a statement, and as he was desirous of leaving the debate on the usual stage, the second reading, to his hon. friends, who would enter fully into the question, he trusted he might be permitted to make a few observations in the present instance. The right hon. gentleman, in support of a Bill which he could only consider in itself as a Bill calling on that House to be a party in committing a gross fraud upon the public; as a Bill, threatening in its consequences ruin to the established forms and institutions of the country, set out with an attack on the conduct of a noble lord (King) whom he was proud to call his noble friend, because he knew his private worth, and his incapacity to do any thing inconsistent with public virtue. He begged leave to ask the right hon. gentleman whether, before he heard of the intention of the noble lord, he was ignorant that Bank notes were depreciated 20 per cent.? and if he was not thus ignorant, what ought the House to think of a minister, who, perfectly sensible of what it was the interest of the land owner to do, could have intended parliament to separate on the supposition that the land owner would not choose to prosecute his evident interest, and his legal right? Was he ignorant of the law, and did he presume that by virtue of his office, he could oppress and intimidate any individual, who, during the recess, might venture to act upon that interest? Sensible that such conduct in individuals afforded a contradiction to all their arguments, which was plain and palpable to the understandings and business

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of all men, they seemed to have relied on their own discretionary powers, greater than the law itself, to put down and extinguish every such attempt among individuals. Now, indeed, when this design could be no longer entertained, the minister came down to the House with a proposition for violating at once all subsisting contracts made antecedent to the depreciation, and to alter the whole system of our law for the preservation of the value of property. He was willing to do justice to the candour of the right hon. gentleman, who certainly had this night, with a singular frankness, professed his conversion to the code of Robespierre. It was now no longer a secret, that in the opinion of his Majesty's government, Bank notes might eventually become a legal tender, as they would by this Bill immediately become a legal equivalent. What inducement any longer existed upon the Bank to restrain its issues? They now saw that parliament was pledged to support them, and that the law might soon protect them in any extent of issue. The right hon. gentleman seemed to think it strange that men should defend their property; but such a defence, when aided by the sanction of the law, did not appear to him to be mean, or unworthy of any person, more especially if that person was one who had watched the progress of the depreciation, and felt it to be his duty to guard himself and his family from its effects. The right hon. gentleman seemed to have forgotten that the paper currencies of the continent had been all issued on the credit of the government of the respective states. But what interest, he would ask, had the people of this country in the profits and bonusses of the Bank? That the present state of circulation was necessary to support the system of government, was precisely what was urged by the government of France in justification of the assignats, and it was an argument which completely overlooked every principle of public honour and national faith. It was idle and fallacious to represent the stockholder's interest to be connected with a fall in the value of paper, and that he could derive any benefit from the increasing prices of commodities and the decreasing value of his property, because landed property was subject to the same sort and degree of loss. The right hon. gentleman had seemed to describe himself as the only legitimate representative of Mr. Pitt. He had never before heard that distinguished person,
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whose great qualities all admired, however destructive they might deem his measures to the public interest, accused of any design to get rid of the national debt in the manner by which he certainly might have succeeded in that object—by making Bank notes a legal tender. The exception of Ireland, and the limiting the duration of the Bill, were only fresh proofs of the impropriety and danger of the expedient. How could foreigners be expected any longer to trust their property in our funds when the returns were annually diminished? Pregnant as the Bill was with such extensive consequences, he called on all who valued not merely the interests, but the character, the credit, and the faith, of the country, of government, and of parliament, to pause before they agreed to a measure that was nothing less than an outrageous invasion of the most sacred right" of property, and a plain avowal that the circulating medium of the country could not support itself without the aid and interference of the law.
Lord Archibald Hamiltonannounced it as his determination to oppose the Bill in every stage. He complained of the absurd provisions made by one of its clauses which went to exclude Ireland from the pretended benefits of the Bill, though the evil it professed to remedy existed to so much greater an extent in that country than in any other part of the united kingdom.
Mr. Dentwould not oppose the first reading of the Bill, as he did not object to its introduction to the House, although in its passage through, there were parts of it which he might feel it his duty strongly to object to.
Mr. Whitbreadexpressed his surprise, that after the very able speech of his hon. and learned friend, none of the right honourable gentlemen opposite should have thought it necessary to say something in answer to the objections which had been so strongly urged against their own measure—for as such he should consider it. He thought that the right honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer had indulged in observations which were by no means warranted by the conduct of the noble lord upon whom they were intended to bear so hard. That noble lord bad done nothing more than he was justified in doing, both in law and in equity. He thought, too, that the insinuations which were so invidiously thrown out by the right hon. gentleman against another noble

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lord (Grenville) were equally inapplicable, and, considering the quarter whence they came, peculiarly unfortunate. The right hon. gentleman had accused that noble lord of affecting the monopoly of all the talents of the country. He would not stop seriously to refute so ridiculous a charge; but when he accused that noble lord of exacting the submission due from inferior to abler statesmen, he was charging him with a crime of which that right hon. gentleman had not long ago vainly tempted that noble lord to be guilty. The right hon. gentleman had himself acknowledged lord Grenville to be what he now accused him of falsely aspiring to be. He had knelt to that noble lord—he had bowed to his acknowledged superiority, and avowed himself willing to go below him, and act under that noble lord, as first lord of the treasury. The accusation therefore, groundless as it undoubtedly was, was still more unfortunate as coming from the right hon. gentleman, who had himself given his personal testimony, that whether lord Grenville had any such pretensions to such superiority or not, that still, in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman, they were well founded. It had been said, or rather insinuated, that in the projection of the restriction act, Mr. Pitt had some such measure as this, or one still stronger—going even so far as to make Bank notes a legal tender—that he had then some such measure in contemplation. He could not receive the doubtful insinuations of the right hon. gentleman as greater authority than the decided testimony of lord Grenville, the bosom-friend and counsellor of Mr. Pitt. That noble lord had declared his belief that Mr. Pitt had never adopted the measure of restriction but as a temporary expedient; and with a magnanimity that, in his opinion, did that noble lord immortal honour, he had expressed his regret for having supported the first extension of the Bill, when it was about to expire; and subsequently he gave the proposal for the second extension of the restriction act, an energetic though ineffectual opposition. The noble lord had never approved of it originally, but as a mere temporary expedient, and now that it was meant to be made permanent, he looked upon it as a fatal measure. And what were they now going to do in passing the present Bill—to take a step which must inevitably lead to another; if they passed this Bill, what would be the next step? Why, to make Bank-notes a
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legal tender, and when Bank-notes were once a legal tender, they must then impose a maximum on prices. And what, he asked, was all this but treading in the foot-steps of France, tracing step by step those very measures so strongly condemned by lord Mornington (now marquis of Wellesley) in his speech in 1794, at the time when Mr. Pitt had declared France to be on the verge, if not already in the gulph of national bankruptcy; and was it to be expected that the same steps pursued under the same circumstances, would not lead to the same dreadful results in both countries? He could not help looking at the mode in which this Bill originated as something singular. He would suppose that a member of that House who had been held up by ministers as a land-mark to be avoided with respect to the dangerous turn of his political views and sentiments, after having been resisted by that government in every political measure he had supported; that after such long and uniform habits of difference that same government should find their eyes suddenly opened by a measure coming from that obnoxious quarter, and that after opposing it, they should in two days after, come down and join in the support of it—whether all this was the result of ignorance or rashness, or both together, he left to the right hon. Gentlemen to explain—The hon. gentleman again adverted to the observations which had been thrown out against lord King—the word 'extorted' had been used, not by the right hon. gentleman, but yet it had been used, and indirectly applied to the conduct of lord King: that noble lord had done nothing which his own motives could not justify—from his general knowledge of that noble lord, a knowledge of which he was proud, he believed him to be a strictly honest man, arid utterly incapable of the motives that had been imputed to him. Was this Bill directed against lord King? No, say gentlemen, but its object is to support Bank-paper—support Bank-paper! They might as well screw up the barometer and call it fine weather. But where was the hardship or injustice of lord King's conduct? Bank-paper was either depreciated, or it was not; if it was not, where was the hardship, and if it was, where was the injustice: He would ask those gentlemen who were so loud in their censures of his conduct, if they had any lands out of lease, and if, after the passing of this Bill, they would renew? such leases on the old term?—He next adverted to

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that provision of the Bill, confining its operation to Great Britain solely, and asked where was the justice of the Imperial Parliament in Ireland, enacting, that a man should be transported for an act, which, if he had done in England, would have subjected him to fine and imprisonment only, and which, if done in Ireland, would have open no offence at all? Or were they weak enough to suppose, that lord King would desist in consequence of this act? Something like an insinuation had crept abroad that the courts of law might in their construction of the law of the land open a door of relief to the tenant against the just and legal demands of the land-holder. Good God! in what times did we live? What must be the awful situation of the country when such shameful subterfuges could be thought of—when in order to force a depreciated paper currency, men would take refuge in the hope that the tribunals of justice would resort to chicane, to expound the laws against themselves! The right hon. gentleman ought to have known that agriculture was the basis of all national prosperity; let him well consider what would be the immediate practical effects of this bill in restricting the grant of leases. Suppose when a man came into the market with his commodity, he should say, 'I choose gold, and refuse to take paper;' would not this establish two prices, and would not the only remedy then be, the establishment of a maximum? and would not this be the fulfilment of all the prophecies of 1797, though the right hon. gentleman had asked with such ignorant exultation, if any of those predictions were now likely to be verified? At that late period of the session, when so many gentlemen had re-turned to their summer avocations, after what had already passed in that House upon the question, he had little hope of effectual resistance to the present bill. He understood that it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman to fix the second reading for Monday next, but as that was the day on which most of the landholders in that House would probably be occupied with the business of the quarter sessions then commencing, he thought it might be more advisable to fix the second reading either for some day this week before they left town, or what might be more convenient, for Monday sen'night. Before he sat down he should move that the clerk do read the third Resolution of the
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Committee on the Bullion Report, in which Resolution the Committee stated it as their opinion that paper and coin were in equal public estimation. Was that the present opinion of the House? Did they still think that the Bank-note was not depreciated? If so, then all the mischief which usually arose from unnecessary legislative regulations was attributable to ministers for their adoption of the bill before the House. Let the House not forget, and let the country, from one end of it to the other, be in formed of the fact that the right hon. gentleman opposite had declared, that the existing state of things was such as might lead to the necessity of making Bank notes a legal tender. After they had heard this, let the public read lord Mornington's speech, in which he described" the progress and the fate of the assignats of France; and let them recollect, that the same lord Mornington (now marquis Wellesley) was one of the leading members of the existing administration, an administration by which it was proposed to imitate the first and second steps of the French financial ministers of former days. If the present system were pursued, the Bank might and must alternately make tons of paper, which would be worth merely the value of the paper. Lord King had, most unwisely, most unjustly, most detrimentally to the general good, been called an extortioner. He was no such thing. His wish was solely to preserve his rights. If he had been an extortioner, he would have extended his notice to all his tenantry, instead of confining it to that portion to which he had confined it.—Having no faith whatever in the nostrum now proposed to remedy the evils of the state, he should oppose even the first reading of the bill, as he would oppose the opening of Pandora's box, if it were still to be opened, and with that view he should take the sense of the House on the question. In the first place, however, he moved that the clerk read the third Resolution of the Committee on the Bullion Report,—The Resolution was accordingly read as follows: "Resolved, That the Promissory Notes of the said company have hitherto been, and are at this time, held in public estimation to be equivalent to the legal coin of the realm, and generally accepted as such in ail pecuniary transactions to which such coin is lawfully applicable."
Mr. A. Baringsaid, that those who had

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opposed the present Bill, seemed to look upon it merely in the light of an abstract question; but the question was not whether or not, generally speaking, this was a desirable Bill, but whether the situation of the country was such as to render such a measure necessary. What would they propose as a remedy for the present difficulties? It was not enough to state that the country would be in an unfortunate situation on account of the forced paper circulation; because until parliament should find an adequate remedy for the evil, that situation was absolutely necessary. The situation in which we were now placed, was no other than that in which we had uniformly been ever since the year 1797. The circulation of the country rested on no other security but a combination of wealthy individuals in the country; and the general good faith among individuals held the place of compulsion. He would not say whether lord King was blameable or not in agitating the present question; but this he would say, that nothing could be more honourable to the country at large than that no person, under any temptation, had yet ventured to refuse the notes of the Bank of England. This, indeed, shewed a high spirit of patriotism in the country at large. But if the country was aware of any individual of large landed property refusing to take those notes at their established value, the situation of things was altered. His own opinion was, that Bank of England notes ought to be made a legal tender at once. He thought the simple legal tender would be more efficient than the provisions of the present Bill; but if he hesitated as to this measure at present, it was because he thought that preparatory to it some security should be taken by parliament, that the Bank issues should not exceed a certain quantity, that the country might have something to look to. He did not believe that there was a disposition in the Bank to over-issue; he believed that their disposition lay the other way; but he thought it was not proper to leave this subject to their discretion, and that some limitation should take place by authority of that House, that the public might not be ex-posed to suffer from the mere will of any set of men.—Another thing which, he thought, ought to take place preparatory to the legal tender, which if not introduced in this, ought to be introduced in the next session of parliament, was, that some pledge should be given by that House respecting
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the expenditure of the country, because a limitation of the issue of paper would have a tendency to embarrass the government, if they continued to act upon their present system. There were therefore, two points, which, he thought, ought to be attended to first, that proper security should be taken against the over-issues of the Bank; and, secondly, that some measures should be taken to prevent the contraction of the issues from obstructing the wheels of government. When he talked of the limitation of the issues, he did not mean to say that they ought to be less than the present amount, but that they ought to be limited not to exceed a certain amount. The paper currency of the country was essentially connected with the public debt. The profuse expenditure of the country which had been going on both before and since the restriction, depended upon the restriction, and must be put a stop to if the restriction was to be put an end to. When he said this, he could not see any ground for the despondency which had gone abroad respecting the resources of the country, and that the public debt was a clog to the country. He was of a totally different opinion, and he thought that without the public debt the country could not maintain any thing like the forces which it at present maintained. The deficiency of our finances did not exceed 20 or 21 million, and after deducting what was covered by the Sinking Fund, we had no occasion to borrow more than 10 million. Now, if we could only retrench five millions from our present expenditure, and raise an additional five million of taxes, the remainder of the deficiency would be covered by the Sinking Fund, and the future increase of the Sinking Fund might be applied towards a reduction of the national debt. Were this system adopted, and persevered in with constancy for any length of lime, it would give the country a new degree of confidence. It was true that nothing but a sense of the present danger, and of the ruin which was hanging over the country, would induce the people to agree to such an increase of their burdens; but when he considered that in one year lord Sidmouth laid on new taxes to the amount of 12 million, he thought that this sum of 10 million might be raised, in some way or other, by retrenchment and new taxes. This Bill, he thought, would preserve the subject from all actions and ejectments, and so forth; but still, however, he was convinced

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that something of a more permanent nature ought to be resorted to.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that after hearing the speech of the hon. gent. who had just sat down, it was impossible for him to give a silent vote on the present occasion. More monstrous doctrine he had never heard in that House than the doctrine which had just fallen from the hon. gent. He pitied the members who had left the House two months ago, after they had been told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the present question had been then set at rest. He told them then, that the intrinsic value of Bank notes was not equal to their nominal value; and this the right hon. gent. did not choose to dispute; but he solved the difficulty by stating, that Bank notes were equal to guineas in the public estimation. After having reported this to their constituents, it was rather unfortunate that one of the first things they should hear of was, that Bank notes were to be made a legal tender. And who were the advocates for this measure? Its advocates were two of the most suspicious characters in the world—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Bank Director.—(Hear, hear!) Much had been said about sounding an alarm; but no person could give occasion to a more well founded alarm than the gentleman who had just sat down. When he heard such monstrous doctrines, he thought the only safety for the country Was to take the alarm, that they might save their property from destruction. The hon. gent. had said that the Bank had no interest in the present state of things. He believed, however, that there was an understanding between the Bank Directors and the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject; and he believed that even if such men as lord Stanhope and lord King had never lived they would have fallen on this plan, because it had been avowed by the right hon. gent. over the way, that such a plan was in Mr. Pitt's mind. He did not believe that Mr. Pitt was of opinion that a compulsory tender would be proper. He acquitted Mr. Pitt of ever entertaining any such opinion, whatever hostility he might have shewn to his measures. But the pre-sent Chancellor of the Exchequer saw the matter in a different light. He saw no other remedy, but this measure—and so said the hon. Bank Director. But it seem-ed there was to be a bargain between the high contracting parties. You who are in the government, are pot to be so profuse
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in your expenditure, and we the Bank Directors will furnish you with our paper; but this will require an act of parliament. However, this would be merely a nominal contract, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer would never be tied down to a certain sum in his expenditure, but would always find some means or other of going beyond his limitation. The hon. gent. told ministers that there would be no injury, because there would be no in-crease of the national debt. The system of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to eat up the War taxes, so that there was a necessity of recurving to a further loan. But now we must either raise fire mil-lions, or make the Bank Note a legal tender. All the rest seemed now to be entirely thrown aside—to be set at rest. We must not broach any more any of the doctrines of depreciation of currency, and of the difference between the market and mint price of gold. We must not say any thing of the impolicy of the Orders in Council. All these questions were now entirely set at rest. The only thing now necessary to the salvation of the country, was to make Bank Notes a legal tender. For his part, he thought such a measure would be the destruction of the country; for no country could subsist with a compulsory paper currency. The gentlemen opposite now stated, with a candour for which he gave them credit, that the legal tender was the only safe measure to be adopted. A great deal had been said about Bank deposits, by a person who entertained a very curious idea of Bank deposits, and who said that a Bank deposit was nothing more than a paper deposit. He could not understand how more respect would be paid to a Bank note, be-cause the legislature should say it was worth twenty shillings. Ought we not first to satisfy ourselves that it was really worth that sum. They had determined already what its value was in the public estimation; but would it not be proper, before passing the bill, to go into a Committee to inquire into this circumstance. They had not before pronounced their own opinion on the subject, but only the opinion of the public. In what, he would ask, did that worth consist? It could only comprehend its convertibility into cash. He could understand what was meant if the value was deposited; because that might be said to be done from a wish to prevent exportation; but on the present system what security had they that the

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Bank-note was worth twenty pence. He would tell the Bank, that from the moment this Bill passed, he had a right to inquire into their constructions; that they were no longer a private company; that they had changed their character; that they were amenable to parliament for every farthing they had in the world; and that the House would not discharge its duty if it did not inquire into their affairs. It would be said, perhaps, that he was encouraging doubts as to the credit of the Bank; but he was forced by themselves to act as he did. They had laid out a great deal of money on the very worst species of security—government security. In the ac-count which the Bank gave of their assets, a certain proportion was said to consist in bullion and specie, and another proportion in discounts and exchequer-bills; but they took care to make such a return on this last particular, as to leave the public in the dark as to the proportion between the discounts and the part invested in government securities. The truth was, that the Bank was neither more nor less than the vehicle through which the government of the country circulated their own paper.—How did he know, too, who was solvent at present? The country had been placed in such jeopardy by the measures of the right hon. gent., that no man knew at present who was solvent and who was not solvent. The Bank of England had the price of most of the government securities in their own hands; and he would take as an instance to prove this, the bills which had been issued the other day by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the relief of the manufacturers, which were materially affected by the Bank coming forward to purchase.—Reverting to the subject of a legal tender, he would ask, if it was possible to compel butchers and bakers, for example, to take the Bank-notes at more than their real value? This could never be. They would persist in making a distinction between that which bore a value in every part of the world, and that which was tainted from the beginning. He could not see how the Bill could be a remedy for similar cases to those of De Yonge; far it was impossible to enact heavier penalties against the exportation of coin than the present laws; and yet it was impossible to take up a newspaper without hearing of "what were termed shiploads of guineas ex-ported, which had eluded the dexterity of government. He had been told the other day by a gentleman lately returned from
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France, that he had seen 1500 guineas taken out from a quarter of an ox, which was hanging from a ship. It was impossible to guard by any means against such an exportation.—The right hon. gent. next called the attention of the House to the melancholy situation in which the country stood, when the exercise of his right by one man out of fifteen million, could have forced the minister to have recourse to a legislative act. Was there any stronger symptom of a system being on the verge of destruction? He objected to the second reading of the Bill on Monday next, as in that week country gentlemen would be engaged at the quarter sessions, and it was important that they should attend, for they might place even this point of distress in a light of which he was not aware. Adverting to the immense boon given to the Bank by this Bill, he stated that he would at any time before have been glad to shake hands with the Bank Directors, but now he must fall on his knees to them—they would be such great men. He concluded by declaring that he would propose a Call of the House and for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the effects of the Restriction. On the former motion he would divide the House, but he would propose the latter for the purpose of having it entered on the Journals.
Mr. Baring,in explanation, disclaimed any intention of wishing to be considered as giving any other opinion than that of a private and individual member.
Mr. Manningalso protested against any such inference being drawn from what ha said; and, in answer to the charge against the Bank of a wanton and extravagant issue of notes, stated that instead of 23 millions, as returned to the House, the amount of notes outstanding on Saturday last did not exceed 22 millions. The public owed to the Bank, in the amount of its capital and in loans subsequently advanced, about 19½ millions, which was little short of their issues. He begged of gentlemen to consider this, when they talked about the solvency of the Bank. Mr. Pitt on this ground had been ready to give parliamentary security for the notes. The public had a right to know the amount of the Bank issues, and there was no wish for concealment on that head. No less than thirty-six returns had been made to the House of the amount of these issues. They had a right to know that their security was good, and he assured the House that the

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surplus assets in the Bank, independent of its claims on the public, had not diminished since 1797. It would be with extreme regret that he would resort to the measure of making Bank-notes a legal tender—and he regretted that there should be any necessity for this Bill. The noble lord who had given rise to it had done much mischief, and would do himself and his family no good by his conduct. It was in reality like applying a razor to his own throat. But since this had happened, the Bill was necessary—for if the landlord demanded payment in gold from his tenant, what was to hinder the clergyman from demanding his tythes in the same manner? What was to hinder the holder of a bill of exchange also from insisting upon payment in coin? It would be impossible to carry on the most common transactions of the day, if such an example were to be followed. What would be the situation of bankers in such a case? From the manner in which the noble lord's conduct had been approved and cheered (hear, hear!)—yes, he said, approved and cheered, something must be done. Legal rights ought not always to be exercised—and if the noble lord should still persevere in proceeding with the utmost rigour, he would perhaps find difficulties in the courts, which would prevent any unpleasant effects to the tenant who tendered Bank-notes before the next session of parliament. He gave a reluctant consent to this Bill; but denied that the Bank directors wished to make their notes a legal tender and he also denied that there was any desire on the part of the Bank to connect itself with government, or with any particular minister more than another; and as a proof of this latter circumstance, stated that the Bank had made larger advances while Mr. Fox was in administration, than at any former period.
Mr. Bankessaid, that for the last 14 years they had always been liable to such a proceeding as that adopted by the noble lord, at the caprice of any individual, and the wonder was, perhaps, that they had gone so long without some such inconvenience occurring; and yet they might have gone on longer had it not been for a want of moderation in the bank in issuing their notes. For the present unfortunate state of things, there was, in his opinion, no certain cure, except in regulating those issues so as to enable the bank to resume payments in cash. But he would not restrict them peremptorily to the period of
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two years. Much would be done if it were laid down that it was the duty of the bank to look towards such a resumption, and to do all they conveniently could to limit their paper so as to bring it to an equality with coin, when payment in cash might be safely resumed. This was the more necessary, because some alarming circumstances had appeared in the course of these discussions relative to the conduct of the directors who had applied for the restriction in 1797. He hoped on the second reading of the Bill, that it would be distinctly stated what the law really was on this subject. The hon. gentleman who spoke last was, perhaps, not so good an authority on a point of law as on many other points, but he said that he trusted the law would prevent any unpleasant effects to the tenant tendering bank notes, till the meeting of the next session of parliament. If this was so, then there really was no occasion for the present Bill, but it was most important that this point should be clearly and distinctly explained.—Another point which would require consideration was, the situation in which Ireland would be placed with regard to this country. This measure was not to be extended to Ireland, because the demand for payment in coin had long prevailed there—the circumstance which was here considered as the extreme grievance to be prevented. But there was no law to prohibit the exportation of guineas to Ireland; and if they might be legally sold there for a premium, thither they would naturally be carried, so that one part of the Bill appeared to counteract the other. He then expressed his astonishment that a gentleman of such authority as his honourable friend near him (Mr. Baring) should have maintained such a monstrous and extravagant doctrine, as that the national debt was a benefit to the country and not a burthen; and that the country might make as great if not greater exertions with this millstone about its neck than without it. He thought the writings of Dr. Smith had put an end to such quibbling on the subject of finance; certainly he never thought to have heard such assertions from one of his hon. friend's knowledge and experience. The debt was a thing which we ought to fight against: and indeed his hon. friend himself was against its increase, for he had pointed out a method to prevent that increase, namely, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should confine

903
himself within a certain limited expenditure. The only objection was, that no one could well expect to see such a remedy applied. Every Chancellor of the Exchequer, no doubt, wished to keep down the expenditure as much as he could, but then he had important projects to execute which were expensive; and there always had been a facility in this country of borrowing money, and thus the debt had grown. From all the arguments he had heard on this subject, he was not certain whether any remedy at all was required against the effects of the proceeding of the noble lord, who had given the notice to his tenants; and if a remedy were necessary, he was not sure that this was the proper one. But at all events it was of the last importance, that they should be fully and clearly satisfied how the law really stood, and he trusted that an explanation on that head would be given. On a subject of this consequence, he thought a call of the House desirable, and would vote for it. He did not, however, think the conduct of the noble lord, who had been the cause of this proposed measure, worthy of approbation. He regretted very much that such a proceeding had been resorted to in the first instance by a great landed proprietor. There were circumstances in which summum jus' was 'summa injuria.' He would reserve what he had further to say until the second reading of the bill.
Sir F. Burdettwould not have trespassed on the time of the House in the present stage of the proceeding, were it not for the unjust attacks which had been made on a noble lord for doing no more than he was entitled to, and which justice to his own family required him to do. How could it be pretended that a landlord was not entitled to demand his rent to be paid without depreciation, at the very time when the tenant was selling the produce of his farm with reference to this very depreciation in the paper currency of the kingdom? He recollected the language, which, at the commencement of the French Revolution, was held by gentlemen on the other side of the House with regard to the French assignats. Their tone, however, was now completely changed, and was to be compared to nothing but what they then attributed to Robespierre and his associates, from which the down-fall of the credit of France was prognosticated. He trusted, however, that the present measure would have this good effect;
904
it would make gentlemen at length feel in what situation they stood. Sugar-planters and West India planters associated for their own interests on every occasion when they supposed them to be in danger. The landed interest alone seemed insensible to the dangers which threatened them, and to the advantage which was at all times taken of their remissness. He trusted at length they would be awakened, and would not wait for the period when every man in England would find that, with his pockets full of paper, he was without the means of support. This languor, in such a situation, seemed to say, that no remedy could be applied, and reminded him of a line in an Italian poet, which was said to be inscribed over the gates of Hell—" Who enters here leaves hope behind." So, in the present instance, hope seemed extinct; and while the evil was deplored, it seemed to be the opinion of many, that no more could be done. We had now approached to this point without being able to find out a remedy for the evil which menaced us. The noble lord who had warned us of our danger was, in his opinion, entitled to our best thanks, in the same way as he must be esteemed our friend who prevented us from leaping over while we had only a step to take before we fell into the gulph of perdition. Without a speedy remedy, we must quickly expect to see a paper price and a money price, and the evil must continue to increase till Bank notes became like the assignats in France. How was the Bank to get gold? An honourable Director had told the House that the Bank was solvent. Could it pay the demands upon it in money? No; he admitted it could not; but it could pay you, in other paper. This was not to pay its creditors, but only to contract with them a debt of another kind. There was but one possible remedy, and that was to diminish the paper circulation. This the immense expenditure of the country rendered next to impossible; and no remedy seemed at all to present itself. The remedy proposed did not appear at all calculated to make things better. Suppose the landlord to take the circuitous mode of proceeding by action till he obtains judgment and the sheriff sells, may not the landlord still say that he will not take less than the actual value, while, on the other hand, the sheriff says that he cannot sell for more than to the amount of the Bank paper? In this way must it not

905
still go to the courts to determine the question of right? We could only expect to go on. from one evil to another, and a greater. Was it for the landholder of England, however, to be made the scape goat and the victim to this destructive system, which could only be propped up for a season, but could not be effectually supported? Gentlemen opposite seemed to think that sufficient unto the day was the evil thereof. The right hon. gentleman seemed even to hold out threats against the landed proprietors. He did not know whether gentlemen were disposed to put up with this. He was satislied that in that House the right hon. gentleman could carry any measure he proposed; but did not this furnish a further proof of the inadequate representation in that House? Did the right hon. gentleman suppose that this evil would stop short of the fixing a maximum of price? He was satisfied it would not. It might, indeed, seem to be equally dangerous to return as to go over; but there could be no doubt that the path in which we now were must lead to ruin. It must end in destruction; he did not say in the destruction of the people of the country, for a brave and free people were immortal; but it must end in the ruin of the established system.
Mr. Creevey,observing that there were about 40 members of the corporation of the Bank of England who had seats in that House, and being of opinion that they were not fit persons to legislate on the subject of the present Bill, and that 100 in the absence of the country gentlemen, while at the same time he was anxious to put on record a comparison of the nature of the interests of those gentlemen, and of the noble lord who had been so grossly calumniated in the present question, gave notice that he should, previous to the second reading of the Bill, submit to the House how far the persons alluded to were fit and proper persons to be allowed to vote on such an occasion.
Sir C. Burrellmost perfectly accorded in the view taken of the subject by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He considered the whole honour of the measure to be due to lord Stanhope. He did not wish to speak disrespectfully of lord King; but when his leases expired, he thought that noble lord would find some difficulty in getting the same respectable tenants again. He had found no difficulty in posing bank notes, except that which
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was felt from the want of small change; and if he had to receive 100,000 l. he should be happy to get it in bank of Eng-land notes.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not intend to notice the whole of the arguments made use of by gentlemen opposite, but he felt it necessary to explain some points of his speech, which had been commented on in the course of the debate. With respect to what he had said on the subject of the limitation of the act as to time, he should be sorry if the House were to separate with an idea that he wished it to be understood that the measure was wholly to terminate on the 24th of March. He had pointed to the manner in which the act was framed, to shew that it must again, come under the consideration of parliament early in the next session, and not to insinuate that there was a probability that at the period named, all necessity for such a measure would be at an end. An hon. gent. had asked him what he would do with respect to the mode of enforcing the Bill? On this subject he had to observe, that on such a Bill coming from the Lords without any penal clause, it by no mean followed, that no such provision was to be made, as a clause of that description could not originate in the other House. It was his intention to propose one in a future stage of the Bill.—He then proceeded to vindicate what he had advanced on the subject of lord King's conduct, and defended himself from the charge of having thrown any unjust aspersion on the character of that noble lord. When he used the expression of "pedlaring and smuggling," he had merely said, "that he did not believe that in any case but in transactions of that description, any person could be found to have adopted the mode of proceeding recommended by the noble lord." The change of opinion which had been spoken of, had only occurred when it was found that there was a large party disposed to encourage, countenance, and patronize such conduct, though no one had avowed an intention of following it. When that was found to be the case, the measure was thought to be necessary to guard against interested persons taking advantage of the opportunity afforded and encouraged by the applause bestowed on the noble lord.
The House then divided.

For the first reading

64

Against it

19

Majority

—45

The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved that the Bill be read a second time on Monday.
Mr. Tierneymoved as an Amendment, "That the House be called over on Monday se'nnight.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought the motion unnecessary, and took an opportunity of explaining what had fallen from him early in the evening on the subject of making bank paper a legal tender. He had said if the present measure did not succeed, (and it might not if a combination were formed against it) the same necessity which had imposed this, might drive him to the measure of which he had spoken. He hoped this would prove effectual, but at the same time, if it did not, justice might require that they should go further, and make bank paper a legal tender.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, the right hon. gent. in objecting to the motion, seemed to think that what fell from a person of his eminence in debate, was not enough to render it necessary to take any particular step, and justify the enforcing of the proposed call of the House. He could however recall to his memory one instance in which Mr. Pitt had taken such a step on such an occasion. In consequence of some opinion expressed by Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt thought it right to persuade the House to stop in their proceedings, and come to a decision on that opinion before they did any thing else. What was the origin of the present Bill? When it was brought in by lord Stanhope it was thought unnecessary, but in consequence of what had come out in debate, ministers had changed their opinion. The right hon. gentleman had now, in the course of debate, said that on the subject of making Bank-paper 3 legal tender, which called for the most serious consideration, and therefore he thought the House ought to be called over.
A division took place, when the numbers were—For the Motion 20; Against it 63; Majority 43.
Some conversation next took place, on the motion of Mr. Tierney, for the appointment of a Committee of Secrecy, to inquire into the effects of the Orders in Council of the 27th of February, 1797. After a short discussion the House again divided,

For the Motion

17

Against it

62

Majority

—45