Commons Sitting of 9 April 1811

PARISH APPRENTICE BILL.
Mr. Wilbraham Bootlemoved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the state of Parish Apprentices. Formerly the parish children, who were put out as apprentices, were bound either to masters resident in their own, or in the adjoining parishes. The overseers appeared to have forgotten, that it was their duty to stand in some measure in loco parentis, and to look to the interests of the children when they were putting them out as apprentices. The hon. member here quoted the words of the late lord Kenyon, in a case where a foreigner was indicted and found guilty of ill-treating some apprentices which had been bound to him by parishes. That noble judge reproved most severely the conduct of the overseers in that instance, and said that they had acted contrary to their duty and to the law of the land, in putting 17 children as apprentices to a man who could neither employ or feed them. Too many overseers appeared perfectly content to get rid of the burthen of the children, without caring what afterwards happened to them. In fact, it was impossible that the overseers of parishes
749
in the metropolis could exercise the superintendance which the law required, if the children were to be sent off by 200 at a time to Manchester or Yorkshire to the manufactories; neither was it likely that the manufacturer who took two or three hundred apprentices could pay that attention to their morals that was due, or in any way stand in loco parentis, as the law required the master to do. A very considerable number of children were regularly imported into Lancashire from the metropolis, for the purpose of the manufactories. To remedy the great evil which often resulted from children being thus sent friendless into distant parts of the country, he wished there should be a regulation that they should not be sent to a greater distance than forty miles from the place of their settlement; at this distance they might be occasionally visited by some of their overseers or by their parents, which would prevent their being ill-treated by their masters. He would wish at least to try the experiment whether employment could not be found for the poor children of this metropolis within the distance of forty miles from it. He should also propose a limitation of the number of apprentices which were to be bound to one man, as it was impossible that in those manufactories where many hundreds of children were taken apprentices, due attentions should be paid to each of them. He would also propose, that 40 days should elapse between the time that the child was sent and the completion of the indentures, in order that it should be ascertained what was the temper and character of the master. After a few general observations upon the advantages of regulations similar to those he had mentioned, he moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the state of parish apprentices.
Leave was given, and the Bill was immediately brought in and read a first time.

PAY OF OFFICERS OF THE NAVY ON FOREIGN STATIONS.
Captain Bennettrose, pursuant to notice, to submit a motion relative to the pay of Officers of the Navy on foreign stations. In consequence' of the fluctuation of the foreign exchanges, or rather the depression of them against this country, the officers of the navy on the Mediterranean station, and at Lisbon, actually suffered a loss of about 30 per cent. on all pay remitted to them. All that he desired, was, that the navy should

750
in this respect be put on a footing with the army, and that they should receive their pay at par. This question, which was merely brought for the comforts of the navy, and was quite abstracted from all party considerations, would, he hoped, receive the sanction of the House. He understood that it was to be opposed by-some of his Majesty's ministers, but he could not conceive upon what ground, as the matter appeared to him so strictly just and reasonable. He could see no reason why the officers of the navy should not receive the same advantages in this respect as the officers of the army. He concluded by moving that this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of the Act of the 35 Geo. 3, c. 94, respecting the wages and pay of certain officers of his Majesty's Navy, so far as relates to Bills drawn by Officers serving on Foreign Stations under the provisions thereof.
Mr. Yorkewas convinced that no party considerations were mixed with the present question. Every man must feel for the honour and comforts of the navy, and in this feeling he partook as much as the gallant officer, or any other man. The gallant officer must have known, that what he had proposed, it was not in the power of the Admiralty to do, and that it could only be done by that House. Before he adverted to the situation of officers employed in the Mediterranean, he should first generally state, that before the year 1795, the officers, as well as the ship's company, only received their pay when the accounts were closed at the end of the year, but by that Act they were allowed to draw on the Navy Board quarterly for the amount of their pay. Until this regulation, the officers in the Mediterranean, as well as on other stations, were indeed exposed to considerable hardships, both upon this account and on account of the unfavourable state of the exchanges. In 1800 and 1801 the price of the dollar rose in the Mediterranean and Levant, and the exchange had been sometimes favourable, although he must allow, that for many years back the dollars had been above the par, which was 4s. 6d. and even sometimes rose as high as 5s. 8d. in that part of Europe. If the motion of the hon. officer was agreed to, the country would suffer an annual loss of 25,000 l. for remittances to officers on the Mediterranean station alone, and similar claims would certainly be put in by officers on other stations. The common

men might also think that they had a right to similar allowances. He hoped that the exchange would not remain permanently against this country, but that in time it would so far recover that the officers should have nothing to complain of. Besides the loss which he had mentioned, he believed that the officers would draw more bills, if those bills were to be paid at par; and he thought that even the evil which was now complained of might produce in them habits of economy and frugality, when they found that they lost considerably by drawing for money from England. If the motion was agreed to, it would have a tendency to turn many of our officers into money-brokers. He found himself compelled by his sense of duty to oppose the motion.
Mr. Whitbreadhoped that this question might be discussed without any considerations of party. He did not wish to oppose himself to the administration of the right hon. gent., whose conduct in his department he had always heard spoken of with the greatest approbation. He thought it was due to the right hon. gent, to say so much in praise of his general administration of the Admiralty, yet in the present instance he must entirely disagree with him. If the present motion had come from that right hon. gentleman, he was sure that it would have been agreed to by the House without any opposition. He could see no reason why the officers of the navy should not have the same allowances as the officers of the army. The right hon. gent, seemed to think that their superior accommodation on board ship, where their lodging and food was provided for them, was a sufficient reason for a difference. He, however, thought otherwise, for doubtless all those things were taken into consideration when the pay of the two services were fixed. As to the chance of the exchanges rising in time, that was nothing to the officers now serving. It was a poor comfort to the officers who were losing 30 per cent. out of their pay by serving their country in the Mediterranean, to tell them that some time or another officers might possibly gain by the exchanges becoming favourable. When the right hon. gent, said, that probably the exchange would again rise to be in favour of this country, he must say, that he could see no such probability Sup-pose that an expence would be incur-red by this means of 30 or 40,000 l. a year, he was convinced that it could

well be saved on some other part of the navy estimates. But, if it could not be saved, still he was sure that the country would never grudge such a sum for the comforts of a set of men, who were in a peculiar degree, the beloved of the nation. He thought the right hon. gentleman's way of teaching them frugality and economy was rather a curious one. To be sure, if from the income of a man of a hundred a year, you take away thirty, that man is obliged to be economical and frugal in spite of himself. But he did not know what right they had to force people to be economic and frugal in that manner, or why the naval officers should be fined in the amount of 30 per cent. on their pay merely because they were sent to serve their country in the Mediterranean. The right hon. gent, had seemed afraid that all the officers would turn money-brokers, if their bills were payable at par. [Mr. Croker said, across the table, "not all, but many of them."] Oh! then it seemed that the Secretary to the Admiralty did allow that there might be some splendid exceptions of officers who would not be money-brokers! He differred from him, however, in this respect, and thought that very few of our naval officers thought of making money by calculating rates of exchange. Their principal calculation of gain was from taking prizes. He hoped the House would do that justice to the navy which the ministers did not appear inclined to do in the present instance; and he should wish that the hon. officer would take the sense of the House, in order that it might appear who voted against their claim and who supported it.
Mr. Crokersaid, the hon. gent, had not refuted any one of the arguments of the right hon. gent, who preceded him; and on one or two occasions, had shewn that he completely misunderstood him. On one of these occasions, after a long tirade, he had felt the necesity of confessing his ignorance of what, perhaps, every body in the House but himself completely understood. He rose at present to take notice of an unfair construction that had been attempted to be put upon his meaning, when the hon. gent, first charged his right hon. friend with having said, that all the officers of the navy would become money brokers; and then attempted to convert his (Mr. Groker's) dissent into an expression that there might be some. The expressions make use of by his right hon. friend; were very different from those assigned to
751
him by the hon. gent.; and he had no right, therefore, to put what he must call a calumnious construction on his sentiments.
Mr. Rosesaid that he felt as much for the honour and comforts of the navy as any man, and had done all that lay in the power of his humble efforts to promote them. He therefore trusted that he should not be considered an enemy to the navy, although he must oppose the present motion. On some stations the exchange was in favour of the officer, and on the Jamaica station in particular, it had been pretty permanently 12 per cent. in their favour. The calculation of the allowances to be made to the naval officers would be extremely difficult, as there was no pay master as in the army.
Mr. Hornersupported the motion, al-though he was generally in favour of increases of pay and allowance originating with ministers, and not in that House. He certainly did not think that it would be right to be calculating minute variations of exchange, but that when a very strong case was made out for relief, as he conceived this to be, he thought the officers should not be permitted to suffer so very considerably.
Mr. Huskissonconceived, that great difficulty would arise, if we were to think of adjusting the pay of officers to the incessant variations of foreign exchange. In some cases it would be equivalent to an advance of 30 per cent. on their pay, to the disadvantage of the country; in some, of course, a diminution. They could not be paid in bullion, without a serious loss-in its purchase. The measure proposed would have the effect of introducing a certain kind of money-brokerage into the service; If the measure proposed had any foundation with respect to the officers in the Mediterranean, there was no reason why it should not reach to all officers, naval and military, abroad. The question was connected with that of exchanges, and was extremely extensive. He concluded by recommending the motion to be withdrawn.
Captain Bennettsaid, that the navy had been now four years suffering from this grievance; how long, then, he asked, were they still to suffer from the commercial system of the gentlemen on the other side of the House? He had frequently heard of the cold calculations of the cabinet The memorials of the navy officers on this subject had been passed over in silence

752
How long, he asked, were they to suffer under this cold-blooded system? Were he to be alone on this question, he should still feel it to be his duty to divide the House. He saw clearly, however, that the administration would be successful. He mentioned the different diminutions which the income of the officers of the navy had suffered from income tax, &c.; and then asked with what propriety the right hon. gent, could call them money-brokers? He never lamented, more than at that moment, the want of the powers of eloquence, that he might express his indignant feelings at that insinuation. Nothing but imperious necessity could have induced him, inexperienced as he was, to come forward with the motion: but having once made it, he would take the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. Yorkesaid, he was not aware of more than two memorials having been presented from officers on foreign service.
Mr. H. Thorntonthought the question premature, as there was another question depending by which this would be materially affected. He therefore thought that the other should be decided before the present was entered upon.
Sir C. M. Burrellsaid, the officers of the navy had been ill used by the House, in the deduction which had been made from their shares of prize money, merely for the sake of popularity.
Admiral Harveystated his determination to vote for a Committee.
Mr. Whitbreaddeclared his intention of moving the previous question, that the gentlemen opposite, who seemed to think it premature, might have an opportunity of supporting it hereafter. He was proceeding in his observations, when
The Speakersuggested that the hon. member had spoken already upon the subject.
Mr. W. Adamsaid, that understanding the gentlemen opposite in the same way that his hon. friend had, he should afford them the opportunity, by moving the previous question.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he should vote for the previous question, if he understood the hon. gentlemen correctly, and might hope to have their support to the motion on a Future occasion; and this he understood to be the feeling of his learned friend.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he declined giving any pledge as to his vote, upon any future occasion; and repeated that he thought the measure premature.
Mr. Hornersaid, he had forborne from alluding to the other questions as he thought that if our officers on foreign service experienced any loss, let it proceed from what source it would, they ought to be indemnified.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved that the manner in which the previous question was put, was not peculiarly gracious; nor did he ever recollect a question so completely converted into a party question, after the expression of so strong a determination to the contrary. The gallant captain had so far forgotten his original determination, that he did not hesitate to complain of the cold blooded feeling and calculation of the Treasury, though nothing could be more unjustly imputed to them in anything relating to the interests of the navy. As to the hon. gent, who sat next the gallant officer (Mr. Whitbread) after having first transferred his motion to his learned friend (Mr. Adam), he determined that incase of a certain answer to his question he would vote against his own motion; and afterwards went so far as to promise not only for himself but for his learned friend. As the previous question appeared to him the handsomest way of meeting the subject, he would engage that if the hon. gent, would vote against his own motion he would vote for it.
After some further conversation between sir John Newport, Mr. Adam, the Speaker, and captain Bennet, the previous question was carried.

DISTILLERY BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer having moved that the Report on the Distillery Bill be recommitted.
Sir John Sinclairstated his objections to the measure. He estimated the whole amount of grain used in Distilleries at 800,000 quarters in the year, which could not amount to less than a million and a half of money. To interfere with this was a serious matter; and would be at-tended by the most pernicious consequences to society at large.
Mr. W. Smithquoted the opinions of the corn distillers themselves, who represented the measure as a death blow to their trade, if carried into execution. Within the last forty years there were only three prohibitions, a circumstance which formed a kind of prescription in, favour of corn distilleries. He went into a minute calculation to prove, that by

encouraging the practice of distillation from sugar, one million of money would be taken from the national stock without any kind of benefit; but confining the operation of the measure to England alone, the Joss would amount to 3,00,000 l. If it were right to tax this country for the West Indies, this was not the way to tax it: and the whole of the evil of which those colonies complained, required a different policy. He did not wish that the agriculturists of the West Indies should be injured; but he was unwilling that they should be encouraged to produce any article to an extent for which there was no demand, and then to call upon those of England to submit to taxation on account of it.
Mr. Hibbertobserved, that on the average of the last eleven years, a sum of four millions yearly had been paid to the enemy for corn. Last year the sum was seven millions; one year it was ten millions; but on the whole it was forty millions and upwards. All that the West India proprietors asked was, to be let into one fifth of this sum, and the remaining four fifths would, he contended, be sufficient to encourage agriculture. There was no measure likely to be more effectual than this against the enemy; who never impeded the export of grain, nor had any objection to receive our coin and bullion, but vigorously excluded all colonial produce.
Mr. W. Taylorconsidered the corn laws and the distillery laws as parts of one system of laws. Ever since the Revolution, they had been considered in that light. In various periods of scarcity, viz. 1699, 1757, 1705, and 1800, the export of corn was prohibited, as well as the distillation from spirit. He did not wish this country to fee dependent on the enemy; and was of opinion, that instead of interfering with the interests of agriculture, as they would by such a measure as this, they ought to encourage the cultivation of corn.
Mr. Fullersaid that the mere principle was to put commodities upon a fair footing. Gentlemen should not affect to think so lightly of our West India colonics; they had given more than their one share of support in carrying on the war, as affording a market for our manufactures, and a nursery for our marine. They all saw how Buonaparté valued a West India colony, while he had one, never sparing a ship or a man to retain
753
it, well knowing that without colonies, France, after all, was nothing, and yet gentlemen on the opposite side could be blind to advantages so obvious to that great and wise man—not that he meant to compliment Buonaparté, whom he believed to be the greatest villain on the face of the earth, but if one who was known to keep so good a look-out to his own interests, thought so highly of those colonies, what-could those persons mean who made so much noise about their corn-growers, and potatoe-growers, and what not? This talk about the landed interests would be attributed to country "Gentleism," but it looked more like country Jewism, dissatisfied with any thing less than "shent per shent for their money." (Laughter.)
Lord Binningobserved, that notwithstanding all the gloomy predictions of the opposers of this Bill, at the time the measure of 1808 was brought forward, the enterprise of farmers had not declined; and therefore he was of opinion, that the fears of these honourable false prophets were to be received with considerable caution. This measure, as well as that, was founded on the fact of a large importation of corn. No man felt more strongly than he did the claims of the West India proprietor" on the justice of that House. He was persuaded they ought to be let into a competition with the foreign corn-importer. An average of 30 s. was a considerable price for barley; but 38 s. was much more favourable to the farmer than 70 s. to the sugar-planter. He did not think that the barley-growers had much reason to complain; and was of opinion that the measure ought to have a trial.
Sir John Newportdeprecated the spirit of intermeddling with the agriculture of the country.
Mr. Rosesaid, that the objections of the distillers arose from the fear of illicit distilleries, and the introduction of spirits from Scotland; but those were matters for the revenue to guard against. The legislature had for centuries past been in the habit of intermeddling with the agriculture, and the propriety of doing so upon the present occasion rested upon a strong ground, that of preferring our own colonies to foreigners.
Mr. Westerncontended, that if the waste land in this country were cultivated, it would be as productive as could be desired, and consequently supersede the necessity of having recourse to foreign markets for a supply. He was against the

754
measure, as injurious to the agricultural interests, as being calculated to force the consumption of sugar, and therefore he conceived that the principles of it induced the strongest objections on the part of the landed interest.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwished to make a few observations upon one or two points which had been adverted to in the course of the debate. He denied that the measure would have the effect of forcing the consumption of sugar, but even supposing that was the ultimate object, it could only apply when the price of barley was above 38 s. in no other respect could it have that effect. With respect to the apprehensions entertained by some gentlemen as to its producing importations of foreign spirits and of illicit trade, those were apprehensions which the test of experience would very shortly determine. The right hon. gent, then combated the arguments of the hon. gent, (Mr. Smith), contending that they were erroneously founded upon the presumption that distillation would be produced from the cheapest commodity. He was as anxious for the use of grain as any one, but for the reasons before stated, he thought it the true policy to permit distillation from sugar.
Mr. Marryattsupported the measure, convinced that the complaints of the landed interest were in a great measure groundless, and the claims of the West India proprietors well founded.
The House then divided, for the recommittal, Ayes, 66. Noes 31. Majority 35. The House then went into a Committee on the clause for limiting the duration of the Act for three months to Ireland. After a short discussion, in which sir J. Newport, Mr. Grattan, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Rose, and Mr. Fuller participated, the clause was agreed to, and the House having resumed, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.