Commons Sitting of 27 February 1810

ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITIONS.
Mr. Grattanrose to present to the House a Petition from divers Roman Catholics in Ireland. It was a prayer for constitutional privileges. It applied for those privileges through the constitutional organ; it sought for a legitimate object by legitimate means; it was right to encourage communion between the people and their re-
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presentatives; it preserved that mutual understanding that was so necessary to the maintenance of mutual good will. When last he had the honour of addressing the House in behalf of the Catholic claims, he had then stated that the Catholics were willing to concede to his Majesty the right of Veto on the Catholic nomination of their bishops. He was sorry to say, that he could not now affirm, that such were the sentiments of the Roman Catholics of Ireland upon that subject. Whether he had misinformed the House, or the Catholics had been guilty of retractation, was a question which he should never agitate, it being his fixed principle never to defend himself at the expence of his country. The admission of the Catholic to a participation in the rights enjoyed by his Protestant fellow subject, he had always thought a measure of imperious necessity, originating in wisdom, and founded upon the public good. He had, however, at the same time thought, and uniformly thought, that the investiture of a foreign power with the unqualified and arbitrary right of nomination to any portion of our magistracy, was in itself an objection that circumscribed the liberality of many, and had shaken the confidence of more. This objection might perhaps be removed, certainly be modified. He thought it ought to be modified; for putting it broadly, it was calculated to awaken apprehension of injurious consequences to these realms, and more particularly if looked at in reference to the present situation of the spiritual head of the Roman Catholic religion. The Pope was or was likely to be, a French subject; it was desirable, it was indispensible that the nomination of the spiritual magistrates of so great a portion of the community should not be placed under the controul of the common enemy. In saying this, he spoke the sentiments, the wishes of the Roman Catholics of Ireland; their opinion in this respect was notorious and decisive; they were unanimous as to the object; they differed only as to the means: and if the majority should ultimately disapprove of the measure of Veto, he thought that it behoved the Catholics to provide by some other mode equally efficient, and not equally obnoxious, that no grounds be left for those gloomy apprehensions of insecurity, resulting from acceding to their claims.—It was, he repeated, absolutely incumbent upon the Catholics to adopt some other mode, since they could not agree to that, to

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shew that the admitting them to the privileges of the constitution was wholly consistent with its safety. He had deep and ample faith in that consistency—but now when the Pope was, or was soon to be, the subject of a foreign enemy, the Catholics would be solicitous to provide that the nomination of their spiritual magistracy should not be an instrument against that constitution they had so long contributed their aid to support, and so long solicited the privilege to enjoy. The Catholic might not think the mode of Veto the best way to effect this desirable purpose, but the object was not the less ardently to be wished for because they disputed the best means of attaining it. Upon some future day he would take occasion to call the solemn deliberation of the House, to sit in judgment upon the great question of giving all the defenders of the empire the same dear interests in its security—of consolidating our means as a people, by making us an united people, cementing our strength by a more universal diffusion of the privileges that made us strong, and extending the defence of our rights by extending their participation. On that day he should rest his arguments upon two great claims, which he would put in on the part of the constitution: first, no religious disability; next, no foreign nomination. Upon the common ground of those two principles, he would take his stand: for the present he should say no more. He deprecated in the present stage any conversation that could not embrace the question fully, and that might go too far upon detached points; and upon the future discussion he trusted that there would not be betrayed, upon either the one side or the other, any heat or violence. This was a question upon which transient effusions of un-governed warmth might inflict permanent wounds. Passion and prejudice should keep equally aloof from its discussion. The soothing progress of time had imperceptibly done much to heal, and change, and reconcile—reciprocal good will had been gaining upon reciprocal recrimination. The question was a sort of protracted marriage. Both parties were growing wearied of asperity—they were learning to bear with one another's failings, to take the worse for the sake of the better, and would soon have a common sympathy in their sufferings and enjoyments. The right hon. gent. then concluded with moving, That the Petition do lie on the table.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that though the right hon. gent. had deprecated any further discussion at present, he could not forbear making one or two observations upon what had fallen from him. However fortunate those humble efforts had proved, which he had made in resisting the claims of the Roman Catholics, it did not appear from what had fallen from the right hon. gent. that his motives in resisting those claims had, been at all connected with those principles of bigotted intolerance, which had been so liberally imputed to him; for it was clear that had those claims been granted, they would have been granted upon principles utterly inconsistent with the safety of the constitution. It did appear, that whatever difference of opinion had prevailed between him and the right hon. gent. upon the abstract question, yet that right hon. gent. was of opinion, that certain great and important provisions were indispensible, in order to guard the constitution against the danger likely to result from that concession. The right I hon. gent. had at length admitted the danger of giving the Roman Catholics; what they sought for; or, if he did not, why did he speak of the necessity of a remedy? It appeared then, that they both saw the danger, though they did not agree as to the best means of providing against that danger. He hoped, therefore, he should hear no further charges of intolerance, since the right hon. gent. himself, who had been so long the advocate of the Catholic claims, had acknowledged that there was something to he apprehended from the spiritual influence of the Pope in the nomination of the Roman Catholic bishops. This was the intolerance of which he (Mr. Perceval) had been guilty. He had all along thought it dangerous—so did now the right hon. gent. But there was one other point upon which he would beg leave to say one word. The right hon. gent. had said, that he would never discuss the question, whether he had misinformed the House, or the Catholics had retracted the cession of the Veto. This was all very well between the Catholics and the right hon. gent. but not so between that right hon. gent. and the House; for if the House had been so influenced by that proposition as to have suddenly resolved upon some summary and immediate proceeding, that right hon. gent. would have obtained from the House a consent upon a condition, which

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condition would never have been fulfilled. He concluded, with entering his protest against the principle of charging intolerance upon the exercise of one's own judgment upon a great religious and political question.
Mr. Grattansaid in reply, that he had never changed his mind upon the great question of the Catholic Claims; the course he had pursued had been pursued by others. When Mr. Fox presented the Petitions of the Catholics, he did not enter into the consideration of the small items of minor expediency, that was for the committee to do, and that great statesman moved for a committee; so had he done. He supported the broad question, and reserved the minor questions of qualifications, limitations, security, for the committee. He first asked them to go into the committee, and in that committee to make provision for the details. It had been argued on the ground of provision of security in another place. It was allowed to be a question of complicated consideration, this was, then, an argument for going into the committee; besides, the Pope was then an independent power, or at least a power dependent upon England; but now the Pope was wholly dependent upon France, and it was to be remembered, that the actual situation of the Pope was a mere ingredient in the question. By deferring the measure till now, the Catholics had lost the opportunity of obtaining their privileges, and England had lost the opportunity of displaying her generosity under the most favourable circumstances.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that he did not wish to delay the House for any time, but as he had never known a minister to display such a want of discretion and candour as the right hon. gent. in what had fallen from him, he thought he would be wanting in his public duty, if he did not make a few observations. He hoped that what had fallen from his right hon. friend (Mr. Grattan), would have its due effect upon the Catholics, whose cause he maintained; and that they would be ready to come forward, and declare themselves willing to separate themselves from foreign influence, and to yield up any pretension, which was inconsistent with the security of the constitution. He would not give his opinion upon the Veto, but thought it rather hard that a question but newly started, should be taken advantage of, and brought against their substantial claims.
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He was sure that the Catholics would do right to assent to the Veto, if they could do it consistently with their religion. The right hon. gent. opposite had declared his happiness at this new difficulty, and, he regretted to observe, had hinted at other objections, which, perhaps, nothing could remove from his mind. The right hon. gent. would do well to consider that the class of Catholics, in behalf of whom the Petition was now presented, was not obscure. He would do well to consider their number, their wealth, and their respectability; so far from being enemies to the constitution, they had given the most decided proofs of their attachment to it; every appeal which they made for redress, was made through the Legislature; nor did they seek any thing inconsistent with the security of all existing establishments. They called for the most public discussion of their constitutional claims.
The Petition was as follows:
"The several persons, whose names are thereunto subscribed, on behalf of themselves and of others, his Majesty's subjects, professing the Roman Catholic Religion in Ireland, beg leave to represent to the House, that the petitioners did, in the years 1805 and 1808, humbly petition the House, praying the total abolition of those penal laws which aggrieve the Catholics of Ireland; and that they now feel themselves obliged, in justice to themselves, their families, and their country, once more to solicit the attention of the House to the subject of their said Petitions; and they state, that the Roman Catholics constitute the most numerous and increasing portion of the inhabitants of Ireland, comprising an immense majority of the manufacturing, trading, and agricultural interests, and amounting to at least four fifths of the Irish population; that they contribute largely to the exigencies of their country, civil and military; that they pay the far greater part of the public and local taxes; that they supply the armies and navies of this empire with upwards of one third part in number of the soldiers and sailors employed in the public service; and that, notwithstanding heavy discouragements, they form the principal constituent part of the strength, wealth and industry of Ireland; and that yet such is the grievous operation of those penal laws of which the petitioners complain, that the Roman Catholics are thereby not only set apart from their fellow sub-

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jects as aliens in this their native land, but are ignominiously and rigorously proscribed from almost all situations of public trust, honour, or emolument, including every public function and department, from the Houses of Legislature down to the most petty corporations: and they state that, whenever the labour of public duty is to be exacted and enforced, the Catholic is sought out and selected; where honours or rewards are to be dispensed, he is neglected and contemned; where the military and naval strength of the empire is to be recruited, the Catholics are eagerly solicited, nay compelled, to bear at least their full share in the perils of warfare, and in the lowest ranks; but, when preferment and promotion (the dear and legitimate prize of successful valour) are to be distributed as rewards of merit, no laurels are destined to grace a Catholic brow, or fit the wearer for command; and the petitioners state thus generally the grievous condition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, occasioned solely by the fatal influence and operation of those penal laws, and though they forbear to enter into greater detail, yet they do not the less trust to the influence of reason and justice (which eventually must prevail) for effecting a full and deliberate enquiry into their grievances, and accomplishing their effectual relief; and they do beg leave, however, most solemnly to press upon the attention of the House the imminent public dangers which necessarily result from so inverted an order of things, and so vicious and unnatural a system of legislation; a system which has long been the reproach of this nation, and is unparalleled throughout modern christendom; and they state it as their fixed opinion, that, to restore to the Catholics of Ireland a full equal and unqualified participation of the benefits of the laws and constitution of England, and to withdraw all the privations, restrictions, and vexatious distinctions, which oppress, injure and afflict them in their country, is now become a measure not merely expedient, but absolutely necessary; not only a debt of right due to a complaining people, but perhaps the last remaining resource of this empire, in the preservation of which they take so deep an interest; and therefore praying the House to take into their most serious consideration, the nature, extent, and operation of the aforesaid penal laws, and, by repealing the same altogether, to restore to the Roman Catholics
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of Ireland those liberties so long withheld, and their due share in that constitution, which they, in common with their fellow subjects of every other description, contribute, by taxes, arms, and industry, to sustain and defend."
A Petition of the Roman Catholic freeholders and inhabitants of the Queen's County, was presented to the House by Mr. Parnell; containing the same allegations and prayer as the last preceding Petition.
A Petition of the Roman Catholics of the county and city of Cork, whose names are thereunto subscribed, on behalf of themselves and others, his Majesty's subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland, was likewise presented to the House by Mr. Hutchinson and read; setting forth, "That the Roman Catholics of Ireland, amounting to four millions at least of his Majesty's subjects, constituting a vast majority of the population of that part of the United Kingdom, and contributing largely and liberally to increase the revenues and to recruit the fleets and armies of the empire, have long suffered and do still suffer from the restraint of laws humiliating in their provisions and most injurious in their effects, and that their services to the country have been at all times conspicuous and important; at home they have improved and extended the arts, agriculture and manufactures, abroad they have promoted the success and exalted the glory of the British arms, yet they are ignominiously proscribed from all the higher ranks of trust or honour in the state, shut out from the just rewards of a laudable ambition, and degraded below the condition of the meanest of their fellow subjects; and that under these circumstances the petitioners beg leave most earnestly to solicit the attention of the House to the imminent dangers which must result from a system of legislation so oppressive and impolitic, at a time when one mighty enemy has laid prostrate almost every other nation of Europe, rendered incapable of effectual resistance by the discontents and disunion of their people, and when the safety of our own is threatened by the same powerful and implacable foe; and the petitioners do beg leave to state, that to restore the Roman Catholics of Ireland a full and unqualified participation in the benefits of the constitutions of their country, and to remove all the restrictions and vexatious distinctions which affect them, is now become

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a measure absolutely necessary for the preservation of this kingdom from the perils which surround it; and therefore praying the House, to take into its most serious consideration the nature, extent, and operation of the aforesaid penal laws, and by repealing the same altogether, to restore to the Roman Catholics of Ireland those rights so long withheld, and their due share in that constitution which they in common with their fellow subjects of every other description contribute by taxes, by arms, and by industry to sustain and defend."
And the said Petitions were severally ordered to lie upon the table.

PROCEEDINGS RESPECTING MR. FULLER FOR DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
—The order of the day being read, for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to enquire further into the policy and conduct of the late Expedition to the Scheldt: the House resolved itself into the said Committee; and after some time spent therein, Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair; and sir John Anstruther reported from the Committee, that they had examined a witness, and had made a further progress in the matters to them referred; and that he was directed by the Committee to move that they may have leave to sit again. And the House being informed that a member of the Committee had misbehaved himself during the sitting of the Committee, making use of profane oaths, and disturbing their proceedings, John Fuller esq. member for Sussex, the member complained of, was heard to excuse himself; in the doing of which he gave greater offence, by repeating and persisting in his disorderly conduct. Mr. Speaker thereupon called upon the said Mr. Fuller by his name; upon which Mr. Fuller was directed to withdraw;—and he withdrew accordingly.
Ordered, nem. con. "That the said John Fuller, esq., for his offensive words and disorderly conduct, be taken into the custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House; and that Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant accordingly."—And the Serjeant at Arms having informed the House, that he had, pursuant to their order, taken into his custody the said Mr. Fuller;
Resolved, "That this House will, immediately, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to enquire further into the policy and conduct of the late Expedition to the Scheldt:" The
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House accordingly resolved itself into the said Committee; and after some time spent therein; the said Mr. Fuller returning into the House in a very violent and disorderly manner; Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair, and ordered the Serjeant to do his duty; Mr. Fuller was accordingly taken out by the Serjeant, assisted by his messengers.
A member in his place, having informed the House, that Mr. Fuller had requested him to offer his excuse to the House for his misbehaviour; a motion was made, and the question being put, That John Fuller esq. be discharged:—It passed in the Negative.