Commons Sitting of 24 May 1809

IRISH GRAND JURY LAWS BILL.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldcalled the attention of the house to a subject which he considered of great importance, and requiring the application of a speedy and effectual remedy; he meant the mode hitherto practised in the raising, expenditure, and accounting for the monies voted by the Grand Juries in the several counties in Ireland; the latter particularly of which was become a mere form, and wholly inoperative. The evils arising from the multiplication of oaths were universally felt and acknowledged. In the case of treasurers for counties in Ireland the mode of accounting was merely upon oath, before a single magistrate, and was found to be wholly nugatory. By the bill which it was his intention to move to bring in, he proposed to correct this evil, by making them, instead thereof, to account regularly, in open court, before the Judge of assize; which, he conceived, would prove a check upon them; and also that they should give security for the trust reposed in them.—Another evil which he conceived to call for redress was the way public works were carried on. By the present system any work voted by a Grand Jury at one assizes was necessarily executed, and the accounts passed at the ensuing assizes; this was attended both with fraud and imperfections in the execution of such work. The remedy he proposed for this, was a delay of a certain period of time, intervening between the execution of such work and the passing the accounts; for the purpose of affording leisure both for examining into the work itself, and the accounts of the expenditure thereon. With regard to the levying the money necessary for the carrying on such works, he proposed that this should, in future, be fixed at stated periods, that so the persons called on might not be taken by surprise. He also promised to introduce into his bill a power in those interested to traverse either the work itself, or the accounting for it, by the means of civil bill, before the assistant barrister of the county, as a check before the passing the accounts.—As a further improvement, he proposed that in future all proceedings of Grand Juries, on all subjects relative to presentments, should become matters of record, by being entered on their books, for the inspection of future Grand Juries, thereby enabling them to

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be acquainted with the past, and to be judges of the future. Another alteration he proposed was, the taking the power of passing the accounts altogether out of the hands of the magistrates, and placing it in those of the assistant barrister; subject, however, to appeal to the Judges of assize. He further proposed that all persons undertaking any public work, should be compelled to enter into a recognizance for the due execution thereof. The present system upon that subject was radically bad; by it, any person undertaking any public work, when finished, and his accounts passed, had no further interest in its preservation; and thus, for the saving of a trifling expence, it probably went to ruin. To prevent this evil he proposed that Grand Juries should be obliged to contract with such persons to keep such works in repair for a certain period after the work was finished. It was not his intention to press the passing the bill he proposed into an act during the present session, but merely to have it printed, for the purpose of its being considered during the vacation, in order to its amelioration against the next year. There was another subject, which he considered as in some degree connected with this, and standing in need of regulation; he meant the present mode of assessing the Land Tax in Ireland; but as he knew that this had very much occupied the attention of a right hon. friend of his (sir J. Newport,) who, he believed, had it in contemplation to propose a new survey, for the purpose of remedying the evil, he did not know but it would be better left in his hands rather than incorporate it in the present bill. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Grand Jury laws in Ireland.
Mr. Fosterobserved, that as it was not intended to press any measure during the present session, he should, without pledging himself to agree to any thing specific, not oppose the bringing in the bill.
Sir J. Newportdeclared, that he had it in contemplation to propose some new regulations, relating to the mode of assessing the Land Tax in Ireland. By the present system, the tax was assessed by plough lands, some of which might be only of three or four hundred acres, while others contained as many as thirteen acres, so that it followed that some paid as much as two shillings an acre, where others did not pay more than as many pence. It was therefore certainly desirable to ascertain the number of acres that should be
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taxed, in order to an equality of burden; and he intended to propose some measure for this purpose in the course of the next session.
Col. Barryexpressed himself adverse from any measure of this kind, which he considered as an innovation upon those who had purchased lands, subjected only to the present rate, and as such entitled to call for compensation.
Mr. Dennis Brownecoincided in opinion with the right hon. gent. opposite him, as to the necessity of some regulation in the mode of levying the tax, which was at present grounded upon what was called the Down Survey; since which there were ten acres for one in cultivation, and which, by the present system, were exempted from the tax.—Leave was given to bring in the bill.

ARMY REGULATIONS—LORD BURGHERSH.
Colonel Shipleyrose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, previous to the holidays. He was, he said, perfectly sensible that it could never be the wish or intention of that house to attempt any wilful or unnecessary interference, in the interior management or regulation of the army of this country; that had by the constitution been placed in other hands; and he well knew the house would not interfere in it, but in extraordinary cases, where certain rules laid down for its most essential and vital interests were rashly or premeditately broken through. When the duke of York was made the Commander in Chief, certain Regulations were issued by his majesty, by which it was settled that no officer should be made a field-officer till he had served six years, nor a lieutenant-colonel till two years after he was made a major. The present Commander in Chief had made that regulation stricter than it was before, by extending the term to nine years. In defiance of those regulations, lord Burghersh had, on the 4th of May instant, been appointed to a majority, and in a few days afterwards made a lieutenant colonel, by which he had been put over the heads of many officers who were senior to him, and particularly the oldest captain in the regiment to which his lordship belonged, and who was five years and a half an older officer than lord Burghersh; and by his recent advancement his lordship passed over the heads of 600 officers, many of whom were in the army before lord Burghersh was born. If he had been the son of an Abercrombie or a Moore, he

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(colonel Shipley) should have thought his promotion too rapid. The country had observed with indignation, that the person thus prematurely preferred was the son of a cabinet minister, who ought to have advised that nothing but meritorious services, and gallant exploits of the most eminent kind, should have entitled him to such extraordinary promotion, nor could any thing less than these have justified his majesty's ministers in countenancing such a measure. In what he now brought forward, he meant nothing personal to the noble lord; but he thought, in times like the present, the service of the army required the protection of that house, when they saw his majesty's ministers so ready to countenance the breaking through regulations so essential to its welfare, and made expressly for the support of it. He had heard it reported, that this extraordinary promotion had been made in consequence of the promise of a high personage to the father of the noble lord; but the crown could do nothing without the knowledge and approbation of its ministers; and it would be much better such regulations had never been established, than suffered to delude the officers of the army by a shew of impartiality which was not intended to be adhered to in every instance. He (colonel Shipley) was one of those who voted against the duke of York, but he would be much more inclined to give his sanction to one who might be seduced by his regard for a woman into certain irregularities, but who would inflexibly adhere to the regulations of the army, than a Commander in Chief, who, whatever might be his individual merits as an officer, would submit to the Regulations made under his own advice and sanction being broken through, almost as soon as they had been issued and promulgated. Under these circumstances, he felt it his duty to move, "That there be laid before this house, a Copy of a Regulation of his royal highness the duke of York, relative to the length of time each officer in the army must serve before he can obtain the rank of a Field Officer; also, a Copy of a Regulation to the same effect issued by the present Commander in Chief; also, a Copy of the dates of the different Commissions of lieutenant-colonel lord Burghersh, specifying whether they were obtained with or without purchase."
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he believed the hon. officer who brought forward this motion, would not have been induced to call
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for this information, if he was acquainted with all the circumstances of the case. He believed there was no principle the house would more readily recognize than that they should not interfere with the disposal of the improvement of the army. Nothing could be more wrong. Of all those prerogatives which the king possessed, there were none more universally allowed or less doubted of, than his power to confer commissions in the army and navy, create peerages, make peace and war, &c. The king might put himself at the head of his army, and it would then be in his power to exercise his discretion in promoting what officers he pleased, and nothing but some instances of something extremely corrupt would justify the house of commons in interfering so as to narrow this branch of the prerogative. The hon. officer had, in the present question, taken much too close a ground as to this part of the prerogative. The Commander in Chief laid down regulations; but his majesty had a right to alter them. It never had been, or could be understood that his majesty had not a right to depart from that rule when he thought proper. There had not long since been an instance of it in the case of general Graham (Hear, hear!). There was a rule that an officer who came into the army on temporary rank, should not be preferred, but according to a certain rotation; but his majesty, in the case now alluded to, thought himself authorized and impelled to repeal that regulation, and to place general Graham at the head of all the officers of the same rank. The king never did nor ever could mean to divest himself of that paramount prerogative. He conceived the appointment was not contrary to the regulation which was made the 20th of March last. Lord Burghersh's commission was dated the 25th of March, 1803, so that he was entitled to his promotion on the 25th of that month, a difference of only five days; and for so slight a difference as that, he thought the hon. gent. who made this motion would be sorry to stop the promotion of so meritorious an officer. Though a very young man, he had sought service in every quarter of the globe—in the north of Germany, in Sicily, at the Dardanelles; was aide-de-camp to general Walker at Rosetta, and to sir A. Wellesley both at Roleia and Vimiera; and he hoped therefore the hon. mover would not think the king had stretched the prerogative in appointing an officer of this

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merit. Certainly, after these acts of heroism, application had been made to the late Commander in Chief, and lord Burghersh obtained a promise that he should receive promotion as soon as the limited time of his services was expired; and he (lord Castlereagh) thought that when his majesty saw any young man who possessed high rank and fortune, laying aside all the soft and seducing allurements of pleasure at home, and devoting himself to the service of his country abroad, his majesty would shew great wisdom in bestowing superior marks of favour on such extraordinary activity, zeal, and enterprize. The hon. mover complained that lord Burghersh had not only received a major's commission, but one of lieutenant-colonel also; but this was no new case; for there had been case, without end in the guards where the rank of lieutenant-colonel followed that of major immediately; and, till the late regulation, no mention was ever made, or notice taken of it; and as the new regulation was only made on the 20th of March, and the time of his lordship's service would be expired on the 25th, he put it to the house whether it would be consistent with the common principles of equity or justice to withhold that promotion which had been promised at the end of the former regulation, when the new regulation had never been thought of, and which was only made five days before lord Burghersh would otherwise have been entitled to it. Under those circumstances, he hoped and trusted the house would not think it necessary to call for any information on the subject, but would concur with him, that no case had been made out which could justify them to call the prerogative in question, particularly as to commissions in the army.
Earl Templedeclared, that when he first heard of this promotion in defiance of the existing regulations, he formed a strong opinion upon it; but if he had not been before so decided upon its impropriety, the defence set up by the noble lord on that night, would fully have confirmed his opinion. The noble lord had stated that lord Burghersh's promotion did not stand in the way of the senior captain of the West India regiment, the majority of which the house had no reason to believe was now held by lord Burghersh. If that was the case, and there was no proof to the contrary, he would contend that the promotion of that noble lord to the rank of a lieutenant colonel was an act of double in-
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justice to the whole of the army. It was unjust to the senior captain of the West India regiment, by giving the majority to an officer not qualified by military standing, and as from the brevet rank of lieutenant colonel, lord Burghersh would hold in the Portuguese army the rank of brigadier general, he, of course, would be placed over the heads of all the colonels now serving under sir Arthur Wellesley, in Portugal, in any co-operation of the Portuguese troops with the British. Such a statement fully justified him in saying, that the appointment was an act of double injustice to the army. The noble lord had descanted upon the delicacy of interfering with the royal prerogative, and his speech upon that point consisted of a whole series of truisms. But granting him all that he had stated, it still never could be denied, that in that house there existed a right to interfere whenever an exercise of the prerogative took place to the injustice and injury of the state of the public service. Lord Burghersh obtained his ensigncy in December, 1803, his six years qualification, of course, for the rank of a Field Officer, would not expire until December, 1809. [Lord Castlereagh said across the table, that his appointment was in March, 1803.] Earl Temple resumed, by stating that the Gazette proved the appointment not to have taken place until the succeeding December. Upon this point he was at issue with the noble lord, and in order to ascertain who was right, the house was bound to adopt the proposition of the hon. mover, by calling for the proper documents to be laid before it. The noble lord had talked much of the distinguished services and peculiar merits of lord Burghersh. He was by no means desirous to undervalue them, although he could by no means warrant this act of flagrant injustice against not only many as deserving officers of military experience, but against the whole military service itself. The term used by the noble secretary was, that lord Burghersh was a rising young officer in his profession; rising he certainly would be, whilst he continued to receive such efficient and active assistance from his majesty's ministers. But when he heard so much stress laid upon the services of lord Burghersh, he believed, on inquiry, that he had never performed any regimental service; that, in fact, he had never joined his regiment. It was true that he had volunteered his services on an expedition to the Dardanelles, whilst his regiment was in

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Sicily; but it could not be therefore contended, that such a circumstance warranted an act of injustice to many others, equally solicitous to seek service, and who were constantly devoted to the exercise of their regimental duties. The permissions to volunteer were favours conferred upon lord Burghersh, but could not be therefore converted into any claims of his, injurious to the general advancement of the army. It would also be seen, that all his gradations in rank were obtained without purchase. Those, again, were favours conferred, but constituted no claim to the detriment and disadvantage of others. It was under these circumstances that he considered the house bound to persist in calling for the further information sought for by the hon. mover, in order that it might know who advised that act of flagrant injustice.
Lord Castlereagh, in explanation, stated that the 24 British officers appointed to serve in the Portuguese army were obliged to give up the commissions they held in this service; and although he could not then say whether the vacancy of lord Burghersh's majority was yet filled up, yet he assured the house that it was impossible for that noble lord to retain it.
Mr. Hutchinson, although as strenuous a friend as any in that house to the propriety of conferring military rewards upon all officers who had signally conducted themselves, still declared his opinion, that lord Burghersh's late promotion was an act of gross and crying injustice. The hon. member next adverted to the illustration which the noble lord had attempted to make, by alluding to the case of general Graham, and concluded with a high eulogium upon the truly distinguished services and numerous advantages conferred upon his country by that officer in Italy and in Egypt, in Portugal and Spain.
Lord Newarkstated his anxiety to give an explicit reason for his vote on the present motion, particularly as he was in the habit of generally supporting the present servants of the crown. He considered that promotion highly improper from the effect it would have in creating great dissatisfaction amongst many very meritorious officers of high character and great experience in the military service, and therefore he should support the motion.
Lord Henry Petty, after the able manner in which the motion was supported by his noble and honourable friends who preseded him, was determined not to enlarge
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upon the general question, but merely to limit his observations to one sentiment of an extraordinary nature, which had on that night been breached by the noble Secre-of State. It was contended with particular emphasis by that noble lord, that every encouragement should be held out, in order to induce into the military service persons of rank and affluence. Such was the great object which he conceived at this time desirable; and what were his encouragements in order to effect that object? The encouragements of the noble lord were these; that to enlist rank into our armies, all the principles which regulated the gradation of military rank were to be violated; and that to obtain men of affluence, commissions were to be given to them without purchase. In conferring the honourable distinctions to which signal merit was entitled, the noble secretary, in place of attending to the concurring testimony of the public voice, would, in his management of public remuneration, confine the encouragements to rank and affluence. In his view of the national interest a system was desirable, which, whilst it drove from our armies the men fit to practise the dangerous duties of the military profession, would give us only rank and affluence to combat with the best disciplined army upon earth. Such a principle he would ever reprobate as the most dangerous aggression ever carried into effect against the security of the state.
Sir Charles Burrellsaid, that he could never subscribe to the doctrine that night maintained, viz. that the interests of the crown and the country were at variance. Thinking the contrary, he was determined to support the motion for investigating the causes of a promotion which, in his opinion, was highly unjust and improper. There could be no similarity between the services of general Graham and lord Burghersh. The former had conferred lasting and admitted benefits upon the country, and particularly in the important information he procured for sir John Moore; whilst he never heard any specific circumstance or place which were either the effect or theatre of the noble lord's exploits.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdefended the course of argument pursued by his noble friend (lord Castlereagh), and contended, that six years had expired from the appointment of lord Burghersh to his ensigncy until his promotion to the majority.
A division then took place, when there appeared,

For the motion

72

Against it

67

Majority against Ministers

—5

IRISH BUDGET.
The house having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. Foster, in the said Committee, stated the annual Ways and Means for Ireland, commonly called the Budget; which were as follow:

WAYS AND MEANS.

£.

Unappropriated Balances

1,739,381

Deduct unfunded Debt

£. 29,080

—Arrear to Howth

3,814

—Navigations

191,793

224,687

1,514,694

Estimated Revenue

4,500,000

Loan in Great Britain, 3 millions British

3,250,000

Ditto in Ireland

1,250,000

4,500,000

10,514,694

SUPPLY.

Quota for Ireland, 6,273,966 l. British

6,796,796

Interest and Sinking Fund

3,690,404

10,487,200

Excess of Ways and Means

27,494

10,514,694

Money to be borrowed (Irish)

£.4,500,000

Int. and Sinking Fun thereon

264,000

(In 1809 £.212,800)

WAYS AND MEANS.

Per Ann.

In 1809.

1. Prohibiting Raw Corn in Brewery

£.248,000

hf.-yr.

£.124,000

2. Increase of Duty on strength of Spirits

130,000

2 months

32,500

3. Increase work on Stills

240,000

2 mouths

60,000

£.618,000

£.216,500

By this statement, continued the right hon. gent., I do not venture to estimate the Revenue of Ireland at more than four millions and a half, and in addition to which, it will be recollected, that a Loan has been already voted for the service of Ireland, to be raised in Great-Britain, to the amount of three millions British, or about three millions and a quarter Irish; together with one million and a quarter to be raised in Ireland, making in all 4½ millions. The sum therefore that is necessary to be provided is that which will be equal to the payment of the interest on that Loan,
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which, with the Sinking Fund, will amount to 264,000 l. or as nearly as can be calculated in a round sum, 212,800 l. Towards raising that sum, I shall first state a measure that has been already under the consideration of this house, I mean the prohibition of the use of raw corn in breweries, which I estimate will add to the revenue 248,000 l.; but as it will only operate for one half of the present year, I shall only take it at 124,000 l. The reason I state it at this particular sum is, that the quantity of malt used has only produced one-fourth of the number of barrels that formerly paid duty, being 504,000 barrels only. We have no certain data to go upon, but we have what will be a good foundation for forming a pretty correct judgment upon it.—Supposing that nothing but hops has been used as an ingredient, I reckon that the whole of the hops in Ireland would produce such a number of barrels as would yield annually 248,000 l.; but as it can only operate for six months, I estimate, the sum arising from this prohibition of the use of raw corn in brewing, at 124,000 l. The next sum I propose to raise is from an increase of the duty upon the strength of spirits by making an addition in the proportion of one to ten, upon fourteen degrees above the present strength, and this I calculate will produce 130,000 l. a year; but as it will only operate for two months, I may state it at 32,500 l. The third mode, by which I mean to raise what is necessary for the payment of the interest of this Loan, is by increasing the quantity of work on licensed Stills, which will produce 240,000 l. a year. Now, at this last measure, as well as the preceding one, will not operate till about the 5th of November as the present laws enable his majesty then to allow distilleries to commence, I may state the sum likely to be raised in these two months at 60,000 l. These three sums will produce 216,500 l. which is about 2,000 l. above what I will require for the purpose intended. This, I think, can give us no reason to despond. There has been no fall off in the Revenue in regard to stamps, but an increase; no fail off in that arising from the post-office, nor in the assessed taxes, but each have increased.—The only fall off in the Revenue has been in the instance of the Excise Duties, which I attribute to the measure of prohibiting distilleries in Ireland.—That is the cause of the fall, and therefore we are to look to the removal of the prohibition as the only mode to do it away, and make good the

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defalcation of the revenue, and I hope it will be removed early next harvest—The balances due by Collectors, have, by the documents upon the table, been decreased in the course of last year 150,000 l. They were on the 5th of January 1808, 355,000 l. on the 5th January 1809, they were only 205,000 l. and therefore so far from the revenue not being properly attended to, as has been insinuated, it shews that it is pursued with a degree of strictness and energy surpassing any former period.—With regard to the situation of the country, therefore, I do not consider it in any degree worse than before. The value of the imports and exports is greater than ever it has been; never have there been a greater quantity of yards of linen exported than during last year, with the exception of one year, a considerable while ago, when it was equalled. It is satisfactory to know, that while the trade of Ireland is thus increasing, the amount of the revenue has risen much more. Look to the state of our exchange; it has been such as every one must know that money was coming in instead of going out; having been almost for the whole of last year under par. Therefore, taking that circumstance, and applying it to the situation of the country in other particulars, we have reason to believe that Ireland is more affluent than ever she was heretofore. The increase of the debt has been only owing to the circumstances of the empire, for the last two years; and therefore it was thought more prudent to go on raising our quota by a debt, than to have raised it by additional taxes. The whole amount of the debt of Ireland is certainly stupendous, it being already no less than 76 millions of money; and at the end of the present session it will amount to 81 millions—a sum which in former days many thought that Ireland could not have existed under; and yet there is no reason to think it will injure her in her resources in any degree.—I think it but fair it should be known, that great attention has been paid to ameliorate the situation of Ireland, to extend its trade, and to improve its agriculture. By the bounty allowed, there have been 13,600 additional hogsheads of flax-seed brought into Ireland; the utmost endeavours have been used to render her independent as to flax-seed; and lastly, every means have been adopted to add to the agriculture and tillage of Ireland, by draining and improving the bogs. Large grants have been issued for improving that source of
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cultivation and growth.—Although it is usual, Sir, to say much more upon such occasions as the present, yet, I trust I have said enough to satisfy gentlemen as to the real situation of Ireland; but if any hon. member wishes for further explanation, I shall be ready to go into it as far as I possibly can. Before concluding, however, I may venture to mention the terms upon which the Irish Loan has been contracted. It has been made in the 3½ per cent. stock of Ireland, there being given for every 100 l., 120 l. capital of that stock. The bidding was on the Treasury bills, bearing interest at 5 per cent., the bonus being at the rate of 9l. 2s. 6d. upon every hundred. Although the legal interest of Ireland is 6l., yet this loan has been thus contracted at an interest not exceeding in all 4l. 13 s. 1½d.; a circumstance which shelved the affluence of that country, and which should not make us despair. The whole charge of interest and sinking fund did not exceed the sum of 5l. 17 s. 1½d. per cent. upon the whole of the debt so incurred. The right hon. gent. then concluded with moving, "That the sum of 1,250,000 Irish currency be raised by way of annuities for the service of Ireland."
Sir John Newport—Although Sir, the right hon. gent. has stated that the balances in the hands of the present collectors have decreased considerably within the last year, yet if the orders issued by the duke of Bedford, when lord-lieutenant of Ireland, in 1807, had been enforced, they would not have remained at one quarter part of the amount at which they now appear to be. The fact is, that from the period when that order was issued, the cash balances in the hands of the collectors were reduced to 33,400 l.; but when matters were committed to the right hon. gentleman opposite, the balances in the stamp department, that of the post office, and those of the deceased and dismissed collectors, were considerably augmented. I have to complain that a balance of 26,900 l. should have been paid into the hands of the Treasurer of the post-office, as I conceive it to be a direct violation of the orders then issued. By the directions of the duke of Bedford, it was also enjoined, that the gross amount of seizures should be stated in all accounts laid before parliament, for the purpose of ascertaining, not only the amount of those seizures, but the expence of condemnation attending them; but this does not appear to have been complied with. With res-

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pect to the taxes which the right hon. gent. proposes, in order to raise the expences of the present year, I must say, he is much more sanguine than I am. Why he conceives that the prohibiting of raw corn in breweries will raise the sum he states, I cannot imagine. As to the increase of the duty on strength of spirits, and the increase of work on stills, I think they will only hold out a larger inducement to illicit distilleries. I hope, however, that his taxes will prove more productive than I can conceive they are likely to be. I have one thing to impress upon the minds of the committee; and that is, that it is perfectly immaterial what portion of gross revenue is to be raised upon the people, and paid to the Treasury, if the expences of the different boards be allowed to go on increasing, as they have done hitherto. The incidental expences of the Board of Excise, in 1806, amounted to 13,000 l.; in 1807, to 36,400 l.; and in 1808, to 104,000 l. of which last sum there was no less than 29,000 l. paid to one individual for printing and stationary. This is only aggravating the burdens of the people, without raising any additional revenue. The gross product of the stamp duties had increased by 66,000 l.; but there was a defalcation of no less than 44,000 l. for increased expences. In the Post-Office too, the expences were upon the increase to such a degree, that one would think the nominal addition to the revenue was rather for the sake of adding to the burdens and creating jobs, than tending to the good of the public. It is lamentable to look at the increase of the funded debt of Ireland. On the 5th of January, 18O1, it amounted to 21,300,000 l. on the 5th of January last, to 76,000,000 l. and now the right hon. gent. states that it will be next January 81,000,000 l. The debt has thus increased at the rate of 15 to 4, while the revenue has only increased in the proportion of 15 to 8½. If the debt of Ireland were raised as the debt of England, within the country, I really think that a great part of that debt would be done away.
Mr. Fosteranswered, that he had the satisfaction to state, that the regulations of the Duke of Bedford had been actually followed up. There never was a period when there was so little money left in the hands of the Collectors of Excise for contingencies; and the papers on the table would shew it. As to the post-office accounts, they had never been settled since
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they were established; and as to the expence of the stationary and printing alluded to, it was occasioned by the division of the two boards, by which a completely new collection of books became necessary. It was natural to suppose it should increase as there were 14 commissioners instead of seven. The new arrangement, as to the post-office, must have also occasioned considerable additions to the incidental expences, but the public would soon be able to reap the benefit of them.
Mr. Parnellobserved, that when it was said, that the net addition to the revenue by the post-office, was 68,000 l. he found that the postage of one board amounted to 13,000 l. and if each board increased their expences hi alike proportion, that expence would amount to 39,000 l. leaving 29,000 l. to be received by the public. He could not help thinking, that the great principle of the revenue of Ireland was overlooked in the desire of extensive patronage, by the appointment of officers, so as to deprive the Irish Treasury-board of its power, and placing it in the hands of the Secretary of the Lord Lieutenant. He was satisfied that until an alteration in this particular took place, and the Treasury Board of Ireland took an efficient part, or be abolished altogether, and these matters of revenue be put under the Treasury of this country altogether, the abuses would never be remedied.
The Resolutions were then severally put and agreed to.

IRISH DISTILLERIES REGULATION BILL.
—The house then resolved into a Committee on the Irish Distillery bill;
Mr. Fostersaid, that he proposed to make several amendments to it. Where an inhabitant of a parish informed against a private still, he meant to afford the parish an opportunity of being relieved of the fine, by the parishioner giving the information consenting to acquit the parish of any claim to it. He would still, however, continue the clause for making the fine on the parish 100 l. for the second offence. As to small stills he thought unlicenced distilleries could only be put down by the establishment of them; and, to encourage them, he proposed that a part of each fine should be given to the owner of them, instead of going to the informers. He would not give up the bounties on large stills, as they were of great service to the agriculture of the country. The illicit trade may easily be put down by the exertions of the country

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gentlemen; and if they did not assist in putting it down, it would be necessary for him to propose new modes of obtaining revenue, which would bear extremely hard upon the people of Ireland; it therefore was absolutely necessary to put down this trade, to save the country from taxes of a more general and pressing nature than any which now existed.
Sir John Newportsaid, he would confine what he had to say to an amendment, which he should now propose, for doing away the bounties of 16 and 8 per cent. on large stills of 1500 and 1000 gallons content. When the right hon. gent. tells the country gentleman of Ireland, that the existence of illicit trade is the consequence of a want of exertions on their part, he tells them what is not true, and attaches blame to them where they do not deserve it. The true cause of the illicit trade is, the great bounties on large stills equal to 1–2d. per gallon, which go to crush in the outset all small stills, and render it impossible for any one to work a small still, in competition with the large stills established under these bounties in the sea-port towns; for so long as the person having a large still pays less duty, by 12 d. per gallon, than a person having a small one, as the expence of carrying a gallon of spirits from one part of the kingdom to another is but 2d. the advantage of 10 d. per gallon will enable the former to undersell the latter at his own door; besides, the person working a large still must, under any circumstances, have great and manifest advantages over the person working the small one, because the expence of working is diminished in proportion to the increased use of the still. Under this system of bounties, it was impossible, therefore, that small stills could be set up; and when the right hon. gent. says, his bill contains a clause to admit of 50 gallon stills being worked, he knows very well that no still of that size, or of any size under 1000 gallon still can be worked, and his clause is only for the purpose of deluding those who are ignorant of the distillery business. In regard to what he has said about encouraging small stills, by giving them a share in the fines, this is also another delusion, which he is endeavouring to practise on the public; for what man could be so great a fool as to set up a small still, knowing that he has to contend against the bounties on the large ones, upon the speculation of being reim-
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bursed in this manner? On the whole, therefore, the right hon. baronet said, it was utterly impossible to calculate upon any other result of the bill of the right hon. gent. than an increased extent of illicit distillation: if the amendment which he proposed was not adopted, what few stills were now in the country under 1000 gallons content would soon be put down by the bounties, the country would neither be able to buy spirits or to sell their grain; and when it was placed under such unnatural circumstances, by the system of the right hon. gent., illicit trade must flourish notwithstanding all the penalties and fines imposed by that system. In fact, even the fines imposed on the county of Cavan, have not put down illicit trade there; he had received a letter from a person of that county of the greatest respectability, who told him this trade never was in a more flourishing state, even in those parishes most heavily fined. He begged that Irish gentlemen would now see, that this system of bounties and of large stills, was the real cause of this illicit trade, and not suffer themselves to be deluded by the language they had heard about the interests of agriculture, and of the revenue. The truth is, that the agriculture of the country is most materially injured by depriving the interior of the country of the advantages of licensed distilleries which would afford to it, what it has not now, except in a small degree, by the unlicensed distilleries, a ready and constant market for their grain; and as to revenue, the commissioners of inquiry proved, that under the existing system, the revenue lost a million and a half a year by the gross frauds of the revenue officers, and the illicit distilleries.
Mr. Hutchinsonwas sorry that he could not agree with the right hon. baronet. The object which he conceived the legislature to have in view was, to promote the agricultural interests of Ireland. Bounties, by promoting trade, would contribute to that object, so that the hon. baronet's amendment going to take away the inducement of bounties, could not, in his opinion, be advantageous.
Colonel Barrysaid, that if the clause to which the right hon. baronet objected would have the effect of suppressing the small stills, he would vote against it: no such consequence, however, in his opinion, could result. In many of the interior parts of Ireland, the only fuel they had for their stills was turf: some distinction,

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therefore, ought to be drawn between such parts and the sea-port towns, where coals could conveniently be procured. When the committee came to consider that part of the subject, in which he could best introduce a clause to such effect, it was his intention to do so.
Mr. J. Latouchesaid he agreed with the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, that it was of the greatest importance to have small stills established in the country parts of Ireland, and he would therefore give his support to the amendment of the right honourable baronet, as it was the plain, direct, and he thought the only way of carrying the object into effect of putting an end to illicit distillation. To enable smaller stills to work was an object not only of importance but of necessity, for in consequence of the demand for corn arising from distillation, many tracts of country had been brought into cultivation, and if illegal stills should be put down, and none others established, that demand for corn would cease, and a check would be given to the increased and increasing cultivation of land, and perhaps these lands already reclaimed would be suffered to relapse to their former state of waste. He agreed perfectly with the right hon. gentleman, that from a variety of causes, no large stills of 1,000 or 1,500 gallons would ever be established in the country parts; but he could not agree with him in thinking, that if the amendment proposed was rejected, and if the bounties of 8l. and 16 l. per cent. were to remain in favour of the large stills, that the smaller ones would ever be able to meet them in the market.—16 l. per cent. bounty was an advantage which no trade could bear, and the fact has already been ascertained, that it was not to be contended against, for when even the bounty of 8l. per cent. was taken off the 500 gallon stills, and given to those of 1,000 gallons, the consequence was, that a number of 500 gallon stills were driven out of the trade. Now if 8l. per cent. could not be contended against, how could any man think that 16 l. per cent. could be opposed; but it should also be observed that the owners of small stills in their working, are under disadvantages which add to the expence of manufacture in the spirit, to which those who work larger ones are not liable; these disadvantages amount to nearly 7d. per gallon, which if you will add to the 12 d. per gallon bounty, the spirit coming from the smaller
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still has to contend against an advantage which that from the larger one has of 1s. & 7d. per gallon; it is impossible, under these circumstances, that the object of the bill without the amendment of his right hon. friend, could be carried into effect, but the committee were called upon by a sense of justice, as well as of interest, to support the amendment; for whenever it became necessary to enact severe laws against the commission of any breach of the law, as in this instance, so severe, that the innocent suffered as well as the guilty, it became the duty of the house, if any system would prevent the commission of the crime, to adopt that system; and the surest and best method of preventing this breach of the laws, was to take away the temptation of committing it, or at least the inducement which the farmers of the country at this moment have to connive at it: they are aware at this moment that the price they get for their corn arises from distillation, in the absence of legal stills; they see, or at least think they see, an advantage in illegal distillation; but if you enable the smaller stills to be set up, they will then have no inducement to connive at these practices, against which we have enacted such a severe law. On these grounds he supported the amendment, as he was convinced, that, without the amendment, the object of the bill could never be carried into effect.
Mr. Bernardstated, that in withdrawing his motion on the principle of the bill the other night, he did so only with a hope that the objects he had would be met in the committee, and not from being perfectly satisfied that if the bill passed into a law in its present shape, it must prove insufficient and most injurious, not only to the agricultural interests of Ireland, but to the revenue; we already had some proof of it, for by the right hon. gentleman's bill of last year, stills so small as 200 gallons were allowed to work; he could bring evidence to the bar of the house, of men of experience, new in London, that had given both 200 and 500 gallon stills a fair trial, and who really were anxious to carry on the business in Ireland in that way, and who would declare that it was impossible to carry it on, while so great an advantage as 8 and 16 per cent. was allowed to large stills; it was therefore utterly nugatory in the extreme to talk of allowing small stills to work on such terms, the consequence must be, that illicit stills will be substituted, or the farmer will be

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deprived of a market for his corn. The right hon. gentleman boasted that his system had raised the revenue considerably within these few years, but did not state how much that rise was increased by a rise of nearly double on malt and spirits; neither did he state how much his system had increased the illicit trade; nor did he mention that by his system 100,000 l. were allowed in drawbacks and bounties, which otherwise should have come to the credit of the revenue; he contended for it, that the system of licence has been proved by many years trial in Scotland, to answer the great objects of assisting agriculture, and adding to the revenue; for that in no country had both increased so much since that system was adopted: he would prove that a 500 gallon still pays 1l. 9s. per gallon on its content weekly; whereas a 1,500 still only pays 19 s.; so that there was a loss of 10 s. per gallon on its content, weekly, to the revenue, by this system of the right hon. gent.; and as to putting down the illicit trade, he contended for it that a licensed distiller must prohibit an unlicensed distiller from working, for that, on considering the risk of seizure and penalties, the great deficiency of produce, and considerable waste attendant on the hurry and confusion of a private still, it must be evident that the licensed distiller must have a considerable advantage over unlicensed ones, and would, if sufficiently encouraged to work, on fair terms, drive the unlicensed still out of the market. For these and other reasons he contended for it, that it was utterly useless to talk of allowing small stills to work, without taking off the bounty allowed to large ones.
Mr. Dennis Brownesaid, that he held the opinion of his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer in such high veneration, that he was always ready to believe whatever he said was right, would prove to be so. He had always proved himself to be a great friend to the interests and welfare of Ireland, and he would not desert him in this instance. He said that disloyalty and illicit distillery went hand in hand over the kingdom, and that till illicit distillery was put down, disloyalty would increase. The best mode to put it down was to increase the fines, and to punish all those with severity who broke the laws: in his county the exertions of the gentlemen had proved effectual, and he knew of no illicit distillery; he had great veneration for existing esta-
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blishments, and for that reason would not suddenly adopt so great an alteration as that proposed by the right, hon. baronet.
Mr. Frenchsaid he was surprized to hear the hon. member say that there was no illicit distillery in the county Mayo; he lived within a few miles of that county, and had himself assisted in seizing several illicit stills last year, and he knew the trade was now very flourishing in that quarter. If the hon. member means that there is no illicit trade near Westport, he could understand him, because there was no corn there. There were nothing there but those sort of inaccessible mountains which the hon. member talked of lately as being of such great value in the county of Cavan, for scites on which to establish illegal stills.—As to the amendment of the right hon. baronet, he should certainly vote for it, and nothing could be so clear as that it would be impracticable for any one to set up a small still in the face of these bounties.
Mr. Maysaid he was a friend to the system of bounties, as he was to all long established systems; that he disliked all speculative plans, and new fangled inventions. The large stills were productive of great revenue, and had advanced the agricultural interests of the country to their present flourishing condition; for it was in those districts where they were established that the tillage of Ireland was most flourishing.
Mr. Parnellsaid he could not permit this question to go to a vote without expressing his sentiments upon it. It appeared to him that the right hon. gent. was attempting to practise upon the house the greatest delusion that ever was heard of. He says that he is a friend to the system of small stills; that it is only by establishing small stills, that the illicit trade can be put down, and in the face of these admissions, he calls upon the house to continue bounties on large stills, which give the persons who work them an advantage of 12 d. per gallon over the persons who work small stills. The right hon. gent. must know when he holds out to the country a remedy for illicit trade by admitting small stills to work, he is taking effectual measures to prevent any person from attempting to work one; and therefore, sir, his clause to admit them to be licensed is a mere delusion, and can have no practical benefit to the public. There are now several Irish distillers in London; he had spoken to some of them on the subject, and their uni-

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form answer to his enquiry was, that no one could set up a small still without a certainty of ruin in the face of these bounties. He wished very much to hear the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for England on this point. No one ought to be more capable of giving one; he wished to be set right by him if he was wrong, and he was ready to alter the opinion he had formed if he could shew him that it was erroneous. In a matter of so much importance to Ireland, and particularly to the financial condition of Ireland, he could not suppose the right hon. gent. would be silent, and that where so many Irish members thought the bounties ought to be discontinued, and where the question was whether or not the great defalcation of revenue from spirits was or was not to continue, he hoped that he would either vote with them, and shew to the committee that he had good reasons for voting with his right hon. friend. As to what the hon. member who spoke last had said in respect to the advantage of large stills to the tillage of Ireland, he must deny his position altogether; the measure of the right hon. bart. near him giving Ireland a free trade in grain to England, was the cause of the present flourishing state of the tillage of Ireland; besides in point of fact, there were no distilleries in those parts of Ireland where tillage flourished the most; at Waterford, Clonmel, and the county of Kilkenny. The truth is, that these large stills are injurious to the agricultural interests of Ireland. They can only be worked in sea port towns, where coals can be had, and by persons of large, capital, and therefore the whole interior of the country is to be deprived of the demand for grain which distilleries would give if they were and could be established in the interior, the reasoning, therefore of those who maintained that these bounties, and that large stills were beneficial to Ireland, was of the falsest kind, as must be evident to every person who possessed the slightest information upon the subject.—The hon. member had called the plan of establishing small stills a new-fangled speculation. He begged to tell him that it had the authority of the Commissioners of Enquiry, and was even admitted to be a good plan by the right hon. gent. whose cause he professed to advocate. He should certainly vote for the amendment of his right hon. friend.
Sir J. Newportagreed that in the greatest tillage counties there were no such
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things as great stills; it therefore was not fair to attribute to them the prosperity of such counties.
Mr. O'Harasupported the Amendment.
The house divided, when there appeared—

Ayes

21

Noes

78

Majority against the Amendment—

—57

On being re-admitted, we found Mr. French on his legs, speaking to an amendment which had been proposed while strangers were excluded, to prevent parishes from having double fines imposed upon them. He stated that the bill, with all its provisions, had none to punish officers who acted fraudulently. He disapproved of that clause which provided, that if a still, or any part of a still, was found in a parish, the whole parish should be fined. If they wished to quiet Ireland, they should permit her to enjoy the rewards of her industry.
Mr. Magenscontended, that it was impossible to take away the power of fining, without doing an injury to the country. There were instances of town lands being fined three times over for the same still. The informer should be rewarded, otherwise no discovery would be made.
Mr. Fostersaid, that there was a law already, by which the misconduct of officers was severely punished, which rendered it unnecessary to introduce any clause to that effect into the bill. The fact was, the revenue was injured by illicit distilleries, and the morals of the people corrupted. They were arrived at such a pitch as to require severe enactments. If gentlemen did not exert themselves to put them down, the severity of the law would not be the fault; their own conduct alone would be liable to the charge of having given them encouragement.
Colonel Barrysaid that the proposition was to fine the vicinity where any materials used in a distillery were discovered. He was not against fining a guilty individual, when he could be found; but it was not fit that any gentleman should be fined for offences committed while he was doing his duty in that house. That the law to prevent collusion between officers of excise and illicit distillers was not enforced was sufficiently proved by the circumstance of 375 applications having been made to fine the county of Cavan, at the quarter sessions, for illicit stills, while not one prosecution was instituted for a misdemeanor to punish collusion.
Mr. D. Brownethought the proposed clause feasible; but did not approve of the manner in which it was supported.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that he believed the tight hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) was mistaken as to the punishment of officers for collusion. The existing laws went to punish them by a fine of 10 l. or to render them incapable of retaining their office. The fines proposed upon the parishes amounted to 50 l. while the fine for the officer, if guilty of collusion, was only 10 l. which should be 50 l. at least; otherwise fines would be levied on parishes, and officers screened. The fines levied upon the county of Cavan were so great, that it would be impossible to levy them, and he confessed he was very much shaken in opinion, as to the efficacy of fines; instead of having the proposed effect in that county, illicit distilleries had increased. He thought the system of fines ought to be taken into the consideration of the house as early in the next session as circumstances would admit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that where collusion was practised by officers, he thought an immediate remedy should be sought; and that there was no occasion to put it off till next session. He should have little hesitation in proposing, that officers so offending, should be subject to double the penalty of town lands; the half of which should go to the informer, and the other half to be appropriated to some other purpose.

For the Amendment

32

Against it

50

Majority

18