Commons Sitting of 2 May 1809

INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.
Sir Thomas Turtonrose, agreeably to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the relief of
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certain Insolvent Debtors. A bill of this description having recently passed for Ireland, the hon. baronet saw no reason why the same indulgence should not be granted to the unfortunate objects of it in this country. He was sorry to say that the number of persons suffering from imprisonment for debt at present were not less than one third more than that which interested the humanity of the legislature upon the last Insolvency bill. Those sufferers, indeed, including the wives and children, and prisoners, amounted to above 18,200 persons; many of whom were enduring a degree of misery which could hardly be imagined by those unacquainted with their situation; many of whom were in fact, actually starving. But no man acquainted with the world could be quite unaware of their circumstances, and no man susceptible of a generous or just feeling could be indifferent to their claims. A conception had, he understood, prevailed, that the act of last session, to facilitate the relief of persons confined for sums under 20 l. would have the effect of an Insolvency act. But nothing could be a greater mistake; for that act extended to but a very few indeed. For instance, of 389 prisoners in the King's Bench, there were only 33 confined for a sum under 20 l. Therefore, that measure was calculated to afford very little comparative relief.—The hon. baronet stated, that he meant to propose an alteration in the Committee upon this bill. Hitherto the benefit of an Insolvency act was confined to those whose debts did not exceed 1,500 l.; but he hoped when the difference in the value of money, combined with other circumstances connected with public distress, were taken into consideration, it would not be deemed inadmissible to extend the limit to 2,000 l. It was also his intention to introduce a new clause, extending the advantages of the act to privileged places, such as the Isle of Man. Indeed, he could see no reason why these places should not be included, if the persons confined in them would come forward and surrender their property in the usual way, to claim the benefit of the act.—After remarking upon some delays which he complained of having met with in preparing his bill, in consequence of incivility and obstruction in certain offices of the house, the honourable baronet concluded by making his motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not rise to oppose the motion, but to observe

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that to guard against such obstruction in the progress of business as the hon. bart. alluded to, it might perhaps be proper to have a person appointed to assist members in putting their bills into a regular shape and form; but before such an appointment should be made, it would, of course, be proper to institute an inquiry into the subject by a committee of the house.
The Speakerstated, that it was the invariable custom for every member to prepare and bring forward his own bill; still if any clerk belonging to the house should refuse to give a member any assistance in his power, when asked to do so, such conduct would be without excuse. Whether any officer should be specially appointed to aid members in drawing up their bills, it would be for the house itself to consider. He only stated the practice, and he would only add, that every member must know from his own experience, here, and elsewhere, that it was not a thing of utter impracticability for any member to write a few sheets of paper.—Leave was given to bring in the bill.

IRISH BOGS DRAINING BILL.
Mr. Fosterrose to move for leave to bring in a bill for contriving the means of draining and reclaiming the Bogs of Ireland. That this measure was desirable no man acquainted with Ireland could hesitate to admit, and that it was practicable must be obvious from a consideration of the state of the Bog of Allen, which was the largest Bog in that country. It was ascertained through the locks erected upon the canals, that the solid earth was not less than 180 feet above the level of the sea. Of course no doubt could exist as to the practicability of draining it. The object of his bill was to appoint commissioners who should undertake without salaries to examine the other Bogs of Ireland, and to suggest the means by which they might be drained, and the interests of all proprietors conciliated. The expence of such Commissioners was not to exceed an allowance to surveyors, or the persons immediately employed in exploring the Bogs. As to the benefits likely to result from this undertaking, the right hon. gentleman thought it unnecessary to say more, than that half the ground of those reclaimed Bogs, converted to purposes of agriculture, would produce in a year more corn than had ever been imported into Great Britain in any one year, while the other half would grow more hemp and flax, for which the ground would be peculiarly calculated,
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than would serve for the consumption of Great Britain and Ireland. With such advantages in view, he trusted that no objection could arise to this motion.
After a few words from general Tarleton, the right hon. gent.'s motion was agreed to.

MILITIA COMPLETION BILL.
On the question for the third reading of this bill,
Sir T. Turtoncould not suffer this bill finally to pass through the house without giving it his reprehension. He could not consent to keep up a much larger standing army than the necessity of the times required, and he therefore saw no necessity for adding to it now, when there was no immediate danger of invasion. As for sending armies to the continent to contend against the armies of France, he thought that this country was in no situation to cope by land with France, and therefore that we should not attempt it. The annual expence of our military force was now prodigious, amounting to nearly 25 millions, while we had in arms near 700,000 men. He saw no reason for such a vast expenditure of money, or for tearing so many men from their ordinary avocations.
Mr. Wilberforcethought that those general declarations against standing armies were very dangerous at the present times. Experience had abundantly proved that it was only by regular armies well supplied, that regular armies were to be effectually resisted. If we wished for security, we must not refuse to pay for it. He disapproved very much of the language which had been held out of doors, and which went to persuade people that this was an enslaved country. For his part, he conceived that it was the most free and happy country in the universe, and he was thankful to providence for assigning it as his lot to be born in this country, and in the present times. As to the conduct of ministers with respect to Spain and Portugal, he thought they were rather too forward than too backward in the assistance they gave. This was an error, however, on the right side, and agreeable to the general feeling of the nation.
Mr. Hawkins Brownewas of the same opinion, and could not agree with those who were against preparation, from the supposition that invasion was not to be dreaded, and that the deliverance of Europe, or any part of it, was absolutely hopeless.
Mr. Windhamspoke in support of those

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military opinions which he had so often expressed in the house. He could not allow that the Local Militia was worth the money it cost, or that it would be in any way better than the Training bill. There were always men enough in the country, and it appeared to him that if, without going to the expence of cloathing or training them, they were simply to be enrolled and incorporated with the army, they would be of more use than locked up in such corps as these under militia officers. He could not see why government now wanted so large an accession to the army as 24,000. Was it that we had suffered losses in Spain to anything near that amount? or was it, that by their alterations in the system he had the honour of introducing, that the ordinary recruiting had now become defective? He hoped that ministers did not intend to send out expeditions to wage war against the yellow fever in the West Indies. Victories in that part of the world did not increase the confidence of our allies. He really did not wish to trust ministers with large armies, until he had some idea what they meant to do with them. The noble lord's conduct in the disposal of our military means, reminded him of a remark applied to one of his predecessors, that money must be employed, else it would burn him if kept in his pockets. Thus it was with the noble lord, give him an increase of the army, and he was ready to throw it away upon any trash. The right hon. member then took a review of all the military improvements introduced by the noble lord; and adverted to our idle attacks upon the West India islands, lately in the possession of France. Was it proper to make such an application of our means for Sugar Islands, at a moment when this country was actually gorged with sugar?
Lord Castlereaghsaw no reason in the arguments of the right hon. gentleman to change the wise system which parliament had adopted. With respect to the expedition against Martinique, he should say that, independent of commercial advantages, the exclusion of France from any possession in that quarter of the world, must at least diminish the drafts of British troops to the defence of our colonial possessions.
Mr. P. Mooresaid, that little as he had made military matters his study, he could not help being struck with the case made out this night by the hon. baronet (sir T. Turton) and the right hon. gentleman
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(Mr. Windham) near him. He had given his best attention to the whole debate, and they had perfectly convinced him that the present measure, as well as the Local Militia bill, already passed, were both unnecessary, and if necessary, incompetent to their object, while they burthened the country with an expence of four millions per annum, and distressed its population. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Windham) had said, that, from the indifference in which these bills had passed, the country seemed dead to its true interests, Mr. Moore said, that it was not the country that was dead to its interests, but it was their representatives in parliament who were dead to a true sense of their duty. He saw the measure was wholly unnecessary, and to justify himself in the opinion of his constituents, he would take the sense of the house upon it; they should at least know that he was at his post, and doing his duty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the bill had already been so fully and frequently discussed, that even the rich and fertile mind of the right hon. gent. Mr. Windham had not that night been able to advance any thing new upon it. It was not, therefore, to be wondered at, that the members of that house, who had listened to so many discussion, and made up their minds on the subject, should not think it necessary to attend this last stage of it. It was that, and not any inattention to the interests of the public, that caused so thin a house at that moment.
Mr. H. Martinsaid, he thought the great danger of the country at the present crisis would arise from the enormous increase of its expenditure. The house ought, therefore, carefully to guard against all unnecessary expences; and as the present measure would, without any just cause, add 1,200,000 l. to the burdens of the people, who were already extremely distressed, he should, vote against the third reading of the bill.
A division accordingly took place. For the third reading, 57. Against it, 8. The bill was then read a third time and passed.