Commons Sitting of 7 June 1809

VOTE OF CREDIT BILL.
—On the order for the third reading of the Vote of Credit Bill,
Sir T. Turtontook the opportunity of taking a view of our relations with the powers on the continent, and doubted the propriety of assisting Austria with money; he objected, at all events, to our binding ourselves to discharge the bills already drawn by that power upon us, without any authority. With respect to Spain he thought ministers should take care we had good security for any loan we might advance her; and adopt the most effectual steps for guarding her fleets at Cadiz, and elsewhere, from falling into the hands of Buonaparté. He hoped at all events, that ministers would be able to give an account to the country of so large a vote of credit, as was now about to be trusted to their disposal.
General Tarletonsaid, his duty impelled him to come forward on the present occasion to offer that advice to ministers, in public, which he had suggested to them in private, but which had not been attended to. He had intended to advert more particularly to the affairs of Austria, but the recent news from that quarter had struck him with so unexpected a degree of satisfaction, that he should in some measure abstain from his intention. Certainly that power either knew, or ought to have known, the strength and situation of Buonaparté, previous to her entering into the present contest; and yet we saw him collecting an army on the Rhine, with as much facility as if he were not engaged, either personally, or with his force, in Spain; but when he found the French penetrate to Vienna, almost without resistance, he began to despair, and felt inclined to be parsimonious in the pecuniary assistance to be afforded to the Austrians. Since, however, his coming into the house, he had seen the French bulletin, and he found reason to hope a reverse had taken place in the hitherto unchecked career of victory. Whether the bridges on the Danube had been broken down by design or accident, signified nothing; for when the French were compelled to retreat, his hopes began to revive. Under these circumstances, he did think that some money, though that sum should not be very large, should be risked in the support of the Austrian cause. The hon. general next

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adverted to the state of Spain and Portugal, and pointed out the unfortunate consequences of the Convention. He also dwelt upon the conduct of Mr. Frere, whose advice had brought about the unfortunate retreat to Corunna, instead of a retreat to Lisbon, which was so much preferable, and which had been intended by the lamented sir John Moore. But ministers had sent another army to the Peninsula, and what was the prospect? The enthusiasm of the Spaniards was not so great as at first, and since they were unable before to drive the enemy, consisting of 80,000 men, from behind the Ebro, what hope was there that they would now he able to expel from their territories an army of nearly 100,000 men? It seemed the most hopeless plan that could be imagined, to send men to the Peninsula at present. He severely condemned the great noise made about the three skirmishes of sir Arthur Wellesley, which would give occasion to the people of the continent to say, that we were the animal in the lion's skin—and that the noble lord was the daw in borrowed leathers—(Lord Castlereagh was in the full uniform of his militia regiment.) He blamed the mode of operations adopted at present in the Peninsula, and contended that the only chance of our doing any thing effectual was, to adopt a defensive plan till circumstances should arise to enable us to act offensively with a better prospect of success. He blamed the appointment of marquis Wellesley to Spain, and said that it would have been better to send lord W. Bentinck to the Junta, and send the marquis to Prince Charles, where he could do no harm. He concluded by recommending the greatest economy in the expenditure of the public money.
Mr. Curwenobserved, that if the news of the check received by the French armies in Austria were well-founded, ministers ought not to be niggardly in their assistance in money to Austria; and if the case should require it he would recommend it to ministers, instead of three millions to take six millions. This was the first reverse that Buonaparté had met with; and if it was of the extent reported, it would be incumbent on ministers to adopt a bolder policy, and make common cause with Austria, where the battle for Spain and Portugal must in fact be fought.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that if was the duty of ministers neither to be elevated by temporary success, nor depressed by the casual disasters to which war was sub-
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ject, but to administer the resources committed to their charge in the best manner for the country and the world. The hon. general had taken an unfair view of the transactions in Portugal, which he affirmed, under all the circumstances, to have been very brilliant, though he had never described them as general battles. Since the army was under the command of sir A. Wellesley, he thought the advice of the hon. general might-have been spared, as every thing that zeal and knowledge could effect would be done. As to the success mentioned in the news of the day, he was always unwilling to raise too sanguine expectations in the country, as well as to prevent its being depressed in adversity.
Mr. Herbert(of Kerry) approved of the declaration of government, that they would not abandon Spain as long as it would be true to itself.
The bill was then passed.

POOR CLERGY.
The house resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider further of a supply to be granted to his majesty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercalled the attention of the committee to the subject of the Smaller Livings in England, the increase of which was the object of queen Anne's Bounty. He had himself given the matter much consideration; and from the pains taken, he was in hopes he should have been enabled to have brought the matter fully under their consideration in the course of this present session; but though the returns were as yet but imperfect, those from four dioceses not having been made, yet he thought no time should be lost, as they approached to the end of a session, of doing something, by way of pledge that the business would be ultimately reduced to a system. By the returns already made, imperfect as they were, it appeared, that by the regular application of queen Anne's Bounty, it would take forty years to come, to make the smaller livings up to 50 l. a-year; that it would take three times that period, of 120 years, to make them up 100 l. a-year, end so on in a greater proportion. He considered it wise, therefore, to take a step towards accomplishing the first degree, by proposing to the house, to vote the sum of 100,000 l. to be paid to the governors of queen Anne's Bounty, to be laid out in the same manner as that fund. Supposing the house to pursue that system yearly, without any increase, they would attain the first object, namely, the increase

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of small livings of 50 l. a-year, in the short space of four years. He declared his intention of not confining the measure to England, but intended, on a future day, to move an address to his majesty for a statement of the Poor Livings in Scotland and Ireland, for the purpose of extending similar relief. He concluded with moving "That a sum not exceeding 100,000 l. be granted to his majesty, to enable his majesty to pay the same to the Governors of the Bounty of queen Anne, for the augmentation of the maintenance of the Poor Clergy, to be by them applied in the increase of the maintenance of the Poor Clergy, according to the rules and regulations by which the Funds of that Corporation are governed; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever."
Lord Miltondid not object to this resolution, but observed, that a part of queen Anne's Bounty had been applied to other than purposes strictly clerical. He also remarked that a great many of the small livings were in the possession of rich pluralists, who could have no need of the augmentation.
Mr. Wilberforceexpressed in strong terms his approbation of the measure, and observed, that it was highly honourable in his right hon. friend to have attended to this subject, amidst such a variety of avocations. Many of the inferior clergy suffered the most extreme hardships, and the vote was equally gratifying to the feelings and to the judgment. He then adverted to the scandalous fact that in many places, particularly in the large towns, the poorer classes had not the means of attending public worship. Some remedy ought to be applied, and for this purpose, he thought the building of churches ought to be facilitated. The expense and other circumstances formed at present very powerful obstacles.
Lord H. Pettyconcurred in the object of assisting the parochial clergy, and looked with satisfaction to what had been done by a bill which he himself had some time ago brought in for relieving the small livings from the land tax. He wished that a plan could be devised to confine the relief to such small livings as were not possessed by rich pluralists. He also suggested the propriety of making queen Anne's Bounty effective in Ireland.
Mr. Curwenapproved of the measure, and concurred in what had fallen from the hon. gent, near him respecting the want of
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accommodation in churches for the poorer classes. He thought some attention ought to be paid to the condition of schoolmasters, and referred to the northern parts of the island, as an instance of the advantages of educating the poor.
After some observations from sir J. Newport, Mr. D. Browne, Mr. Parnell, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Babington, and Mr. Carew,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, and expressed his satisfaction at the reception which the proposition met with. It was not at present proposed to form a system. The suggestions for improvement would be afterwards considered. He stated that the present grant, if continued, would in four years raise the value of the lowest livings to 50 l. a-year.
The resolution was unanimously agreed to.

DR. CARTWRIGHT.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen stated to the committee, that the next grant he had to propose, was, a remuneration to the reverend Dr. Cartwright, for his valuable invention of machinery for weaving of cotton and combing of weel. This he did, in consequence of a memorial that had been presented to him, signed by about 30 manufacturers, who had witnessed the benefit of the machine. This memorial stated, that that reverend gentleman had expended a large fortune in carrying the invention into practice; that in the year 1788, he had obtained a patent, but that in 1792, popular prejudice was so greatly against it, that his machinery was destined by the mob, and before he could get another mill erected, his patent expired, by which he lost the whole benefit arising from his labours, after having expended between 30,000 l. and 40,000 l. It was an invention which had been found most useful in the manufacture of sail-cloth for the service of the navy, and extremely beneficial in the weaving of cotton; and for which not only the manufacturers, but the country in general, must feel themselves ever indebted to Dr. Cartwright. As the ingenious inventor had evidently derived no advantage from the discovery, which, on the contrary, had tended to his ruin, he should propose to the Committee, That a sum, not exceeding 10,000 l. be granted to his majesty, to be paid to Edmund Cartwright, clerk, doctor in divinity, in compensation for the great expence he has incurred in the discovery and application of various mechanical inventions to

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the process of Weaving, by which he has rendered essential services to the manufactures of this country; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any lee or other deduction whatsoever."
Mr. W. Smithsaid, he thought such a grant should not pass without some observations of approval. He thought every case should stand upon its own footing and foundation. Although he had no personal acquaintance with Dr. Cartwright, he believed, from what he had heard of him, that, as far as ingenuity and integrity went, there was no individual more entitled to the bounty of the kingdom. He had witnessed, for many years, his perseverance for the good of the public, and lamented the undeserved return he had met with from that popular prejudice which had prevented him deriving any benefit from his invention. He was, therefore, glad to find that public favour was now about to be so rightly and justly bestowed in counteracting the effects of ignorance and prejudice. The vote proposed had his perfect concurrence.
This vote was then put and agreed to.

SEAMEN'S WAGES BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Sir C. Polerose and said:—Sir, the house having decided that the clauses, which relate to the allotting of petty officers and seamen's pay, should stand as part of this bill, it is lay duty to bow to their decision; but it is not less my duty to endeavour by every means in my power, to render this allotment as little prejudicial to the service, and as little unjust and onerous to the petty officer and seaman as possible. It is with that hope that I present a clause, by way of rider to this bill.—Sir, as the bill now stands, no person allotting his pay under it, can, if he should marry, make any allowance or provision whatever for his wife. This is cruel and unjust, and will tend to encourage desertion; as a man must either desert or be discharged, sick, to the hospital to get rid of his present allotment. The clause I have to offer is to enable him to revoke his allotment, when he should see occasion; this will render the evil less, but it doth not do away the objection of increasing the labour and responsibility of the captain or commander of his majesty's ships. This bill, unlike most others which relate to the navy, imposes severe fines and penalties independant of the articles of war or naval instructions, it augments the already too much loaded accounts of the
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captain, it increases his risk and responsibility, and in my humble opinion it encourages and strengthens every claim, which that class of officers may offer for increased pay or other remunerations,
The Bill was then passed.

Mr. CURWEN'S REFORM BILL.
The house having gone into a committee on this bill, and several clauses having been negatived without any observation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed a clause, providing that nothing in the bill should extend to any legal and bona fide sale of lands, tenements, or hereditaments. The clause being brought up, and read a first time,
Mr. W. Smithobjected to it, and contended, that to any stranger it would appear to have no connection with the object of the bill; and that such a person would be apt to imagine either that he had mistaken the title of the bill, or that it had crept accidentally into the bill; the object, however, of the clause, though apparently irrelevant, was sufficiently obvious. He concluded by moving as an amendment, which he would beg leave to propose in the form of a separate clause, That where as by the 40th of the king, in the Irish parliament, commissioners had been appointed for the purpose of recompensing the claims of the proprietors of places, ceasing to. return persons to serve in parliament; and that it was probable that similar claims may be hereafter made to the imperial parliament in case of the abolition of boroughs; be it therefore enacted, That no such claims shall be admitted, unless the person or persons claiming shall swear they have not, directly or indirectly, been guilty of bribery or corruption.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobjected to the clause, and thought it more inapplicable with regard to the object of the bill than the former clause to which the hon. gent. had so strongly objected. That clause had a more general application than the one proposed by the hon. gent., which applied chiefly, if not solely, to burgage tenures. He thought it would be advisable to defer any discussion or proposition with respect to those burgage tenures until the question affecting the principle of those burgage tenures was fairly before the house.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that the right hon. gent. seemed to be of opinion that he had a right to challenge those who objected to the wordin nature of the clause to sub-

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stitute in its place, something better. Now, however it might be thought reasonable that those who objected should also amend, still he was of opinion with many honest country gentlemen who looked with laudable jealousy to the proceedings within that house, that it was in such cases the duty of himself and others, to object, while he left it to those who pressed what was thought objectionable, to prove to the committee that it was not so. He said this much to shew, that the objecting to any proposition in that house did not necessarily call upon the person objecting to remedy the evil of which he complained, because many an honest sound judging man might see gross errors in any measure proposed, without being able at the moment to apply the remedy.
After some further observations from the Attorney-General, sir John Anstruther, lords Porchester and Milton, the clause originally proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was agreed to without a division.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer brought up his clause for levying certain penalties on the person procuring his return by any express covenant to give offices.
Lord H. Pettystated his objection to the clause as now read. He contended, that in place of remedying corruption it went to concentrate it. It would give the whole management of that species of influence to the Treasury. Now, next to putting a stop to the principle and practice of corruption, the next wise thing was to have it as diffuse and general as possible. Upon the construction of this clause would depend whether he should support or oppose the bill, convinced that at all times it was better not to legislate than to pass provisions which it was intended not to make efficient. He concluded with moving, as an amendment, that the word "express" be left out.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not suppose that, after the discussion of last night, any new light could be thrown upon it. It did not however appear, that if it should be left open to imply an agreement, juries would always presume that the grant of the office was in consequence of the vote given.
Sir John Anstrutherconsidered the attack of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the juries of this country the greatest libel he had ever heard uttered, when he said that juries were not to be entrusted with the character of men in public situations.
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Where was the express agreement in the measure which gave origin to this bill? There was certainly a transfer of patronage in that case intended, although no express engagement appeared on the face of any instrument. Was it intended to realize every artifice which led to the same effect, and only inflict penalties upon the bungler?
Mr. Lyttletonstated, that if the word 'express' was continued, the very principle of the bill was altered. If it should be continued, he felt it was his duty to vote against the bill itself.
The Speakerstated his wish on the first view to extend the provisions of this bill to the purchase of seats in parliament, as well by office as by money. The great rule was to strike at the prominent and most flagrant points of offence. Amongst those, most certainly, was the proof of an express contract. These he would state, always impressed him with the conviction, that this species of traffic, whether carried on by implied or express covenants, was an offence against the law of parliament, and in his opinion punishable as a misdemeanor at common law. It was fully within the power of the house to provide any future enactments against any future offences, which in the course of the operation of this measure might subsequently arise.
Mr. Ponsonby, with considerable diffidence in his own opinion, when opposed to the very high authority of the Speaker, still contended that the insertion of the term 'express' in a declaratory act of parliament conveyed the interpretation, that the penalty attached to express agreements, and that all of an indirect or implied nature, came not within its operation.
The Speakerconsidered that the Resolutions of that house in 1779 bore fully upon a traffic carried on by an implied contract, and therefore he saw no reason to oppose the proposed clause as now worded.
Mr. Ponsonbyconsidered the Resolutions of 1779 not efficacious to redress an evil which all admitted to exist, at which the house itself connived and of which, with the circumstances known to all members, they would have been even greater hypocrites than Mr. John Bowles, when he wrote his books, to affect an ignorance.
Mr. Tierneydeclared, that since he had first the honour of a seat in that house, he never heard a speech with greater pleasure than that of the right hon. the Speaker, whose authority stood so deservedly high in that house. He did think that the house

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after that speech would have felt it its duty to take up the present measure with sincerity and zeal. That zeal and sincerity the ministers had evinced, by setting themselves in opposition to every wholesome provision of the bill. Upon a question which ought to be considered without any reference to party feelings; the government of the country had exerted a most successful hostility. Upon them rested the responsibility of that disappointment which the country must feel.—By their conduct, they would in the ensuing summer, bring the character of that house before the tribunal of public meetings, in a manner which all disposed to venerate the character and support the dignity of parliament must regret. He declared, that if the clause now proposed remained so worded, he should be obliged to vote entirely against the bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerappealed to the honourable proposer of the bill (Mr. Curwen) whether he felt that ministers had endeavoured to defeat the object of the measure?
Mr. Curwen, without imputing any such intentions to government, still regretted that the most material points were negatived, and that the disposition of the home was not friendly to the principle of the measure. He conjured the government, in place of anticipating guards for themselves, to yield to the opinion of the country; and not suffer it to think, that where its influence was to be affected there was nothing done.
Mr. Bankes and sir S. Romillyboth argued, that the insertion of the term wholly vitiated and defeated the object of the proposed remedy. It was stated by the latter, that in no other legislative enactment such a term as "express" could be found.
The Attorney Generalvindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend, during the progress of this bill, and gave his support to the clause as it then stood.
Mr. Adamspoke in favour of the amendment, which he thought necessary, to guard against impunity to those who gave or accepted bribes after election. He had several clauses to propose, which he should postpone bringing forward until the third reading. As to the grant of offices, the fact was, that the generality of the close boroughs were corrupted by such grants, and therefore it was the more necessary to make a provision upon this subject.
Mr. Wortley Stuartthought any member
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would be liable to vacate his seat who should happen to procure a place for any man who voted in his favour, if the word "express" were omitted, and therefore he would oppose the amendment.
A division took place, and the numbers were:

For the Amendment

43

Against it

78

Majority

35

The remaining clauses of the bill were gone through and agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received on Friday.