Commons Sitting of 6 June 1809

SPIRITS IMPORTATION SUSPENSION BILL.
Mr. Fostermoved the order of the day for the third reading of this bill, when counsel were ordered to be called in to be heard at the bar against its passing into a law; after the bill was read a third time, the counsel having then withdrawn,
Sir John Newportrose and said, for any thing he knew, if this bill were allowed to pass, the suspension might be continued from year to year. It had been said originally, that the Irish distillers were in favour of the measure; it could not be said so now, when their counsel appeared against it. He was convinced that Ireland had not been fairly dealt with; but as to impress such a conviction might be productive of the worst consequences, he would not go into it, although he was certain that she had lost more than she had gained by the Act of Union. Those who desired the present bill to pass, wished for a monopoly, and would the house accede to it? As far as one individual voice would go, he would protest against it, as a direct violation of the Act of Union.
Mr. Fostersaid, that what he would contend for was this, that the enactments of the Act of Union were clear, but that the schedule was confused and contradictory. The only way to prevent a misconstruction against Ireland, was to adopt this bill, as it was utterly impossible to take the subject into ample consideration this session.
Mr. Grattanallowed, that some adjustment was necessary; but the fairest way, till the law could be settled, was to allow it to remain as it was. By the suspension, a violation of the Act of Union immediately took place, and therefore suspension should not be allowed, till the real spirit could be ascertained. If the advantage was now in favour of Ireland, they were entitled to it; but as Scotland was concerned, Ireland must give way. He concluded by saying, that he would vote against the suspension.
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, that in two cases where questions upon the Act of Union had been brought before the house, they had been carried against Ireland, as it were, by acclamation, and he hoped the third would not share the same fate. By the Act of Union, the Irish distiller had a right to come to market, by paying the countervailing duty, and if this measure were carried, it would be putting the question at rest for a twelvemonth, with a vengeance. Why they should be deprived of this right he knew not; unless because it had been determined to be against the English market. As he had argued the subject, he would not detain the house by further observations, but wished to know from a right hon. gent. opposite, why he could not apply a remedy to the Scotch trade, without adopting this measure?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerregretted the difficulties arising out of the measure, but said it was impossible it could be construed as a violation of the Act of Union. The English and Irish revenue were both concerned in the decision of the question, and as he could throw no new light upon the subject, it having been already so fully discussed, he would content himself by declaring in favour of the bill.
The house then divided, when the numbers were

Ayes,

74

Noes,

13

Majority

—61

The bill was then read a third time and passed

EAST INDIA PRIVATE TRADE.
Mr. Prendergastcalled the attention of the

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house to the state of the East India Private Trade, and contended that private merchants were very hardly treated by the directors of the company, who made these individuals keep pace with the prodigality with which the trade of the company was carried on. He further contended, that the directors had not fulfilled certain engagements which they had come under, to give facility to the private trade. To prove this, he moved for several papers of various dates, from 1797, to the present time, consisting of Calcutta gazettes; memorials to the directors; letters of marquis Wellesley; lord Melville, &c. &c.
Mr. C. Grantaffirmed, that every attention had been paid by the directors to the interest of the private merchant that was consistent with the privileges of the company. But the truth was, that nothing could satisfy these gentlemen short of having the trade thrown completely open. He had no objection to the production of the papers.
Mr. Creeveyobserved, that the mercantile transactions of the company would come to be considered when the East India committee, to which these papers had been referred, presented its Report. But he thought the hon. gent. who introduced the subject might have said something as to the political evils connected with India, such as the seizing of kingdoms, &c. In his opinion it was preposterous, after the conduct of marquis Wellesley had been so pointedly condemned by the directors, that no measures had been taken to prevent future governments from following a similar course.
Mr. Dundassaid that the house had decided on the conduct of lord Wellesley.
Mr. Wallacethought the papers ought not to be granted.
After some observations from Mr. P. Moore, the Speaker stated an objection to the motion in point of form. It was therefore withdrawn for the present.

MARTINIQUE.
Mr. Stephenmoved for a return of the troops employed in the late expedition to Martinique, distinguishing the black troops from the Europeans, The object was to call the attention of the house to a Proclamation issued previous to the attack upon Martinique. In this proclamation a distinction was made between the people of colour who should make resistance, and the negroes found with arms. The latter were, it appeared, to be called before a military tribunal, and treated
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much more severely than the former. He objected to this, 1st, because a considerable portion of our own troops in that expedition were negroes; 2dly, because it might afford Buonaparté an excuse for the savage practices which he resorted to against those who, out of loyalty to their government, resisted him. He adverted to the gallant conduct of the black troops at the attack of Martinique; of the Saintes; and on various other occasions. He adverted also to their importance for the defence of our West India possessions, and contended that the distinction was unjust and impolitic.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that this part of the proclamation had attracted the attention of government. They had asked for explanation, and could do nothing farther till that arrived. The officers were persons of known humanity, and in all probability could give an explanation that would be satisfactory. He hoped, therefore, the hon. gent. would think the motion unnecessary at present.
Colonel Dillonobserved, that he could not but wish that the hon. gent. would withdraw the motion, as it must be considered as a slur upon our commander, who had lately made so important an atchievement; that to circumscribe the power of a general in issuing a proclamation, was a novel and a bad precedent; and that the commanders, in his opinion, were perfectly justified in the proclamation they had issued, from the dreadful example of the negroes interfering in the warfare in St. Domingo. The horrors they had committed there justified the commanders in taking every precautionary step of intimidation; and the event proved they were right, for the white population received them with open arms, and the negroes were neutral. As to the black corps, the hon. gent. rated them too highly, when he compared them to British troops.
Mr. Barhamrecommended caution in the employment of black troops. If they revolted in the large islands and joined the disaffected, in Jamaica for instance, we might find it difficult to conquer them. Buonaparté had conquered Europe, but could not conquer St. Domingo.
Mr. C. H. Hutchinsonapproved of the principle on which the present motion was founded, but was very much afraid, that when we acted as conquerors, we did, like others, all we could do to maintain and to secure our conquests. He condemned the too general practise of abus-

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ing indecently foreign powers, while our enemies, for resorting to those means of conquest to which we ourselves were in some instances necessarily and avowedly indebted. He was glad that the noble viscount (Castlereagh) had not, in the name of the government, approved of the proclamation alluded to by the honourable mover.
Mr. Stephenthen consented to withdraw his motion for the present.

MR. CURWEN'S REFORM BILL.—
The house resolved itself into a committee on the Sents in Parliament Sale Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to move an amendment in the clause respecting the giving of money or offices for the procuring of seats in parliament. As to the first part, which related to money being given for seats, he had no objection to the wording of the clause which mentioned "any contract or agreement, express or implied, to pay money." He did not object to that, because it was a thing which was not difficult to be ascertained. He objected, however, to the words "express or implied," as relating to the grant of offices; and the reason he objected to it was, the great difficulty of ascertaining what should be considered an implied agreement. As to the offices, they must necessarily be granted to somebody or other, or the business of the state could not go on. If, then, any of those offices were given to a person who had been useful, or who might hereafter be useful at an election, a jury would be puzzled when to pronounce that it was an implied agreement, or that it was not. It appeared to him that it was a very strong ground of difference, that offices must be given to somebody, and therefore might honestly and properly be given to persons who were electors, whereas money given, or promised to be given, from the pocket of the candidate, could hardly be conceived to be given with any other idea than that of obtaining a corrupt influence. He had objected, at first, to that part which not only vacated the seat of a member, but exposed him to a trial for a misdemeanor; as he conceived, that if the misdemeanor proved before a court or a jury, the verdict would, in fact, determine the seat. He had waved, however, his objections on this head; but when it was considered what very severe punishments attached by this bill to every person convicted of giving or receiving those improper considerations,
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(the member elected was immediately to vacate his seat, and be subject to a penalty) he thought in a law so penal, the offence, at least, should be perfectly defined. He thought that as to giving money, that could be so easily brought to proof, that he had no objection to the clause as it originally stood; but as far as respected offices, for the reasons he had already given, he could not agree to it. He concluded by moving an amendment, which was in substance, that the words "or implied" should be left out in that part which related to giving offices.
Mr. Tierneycould not perceive the necessity of the distinction between the giving money and the giving an office for the same object. If the clause were to be amended in the manner proposed by the right hon. gent. the public would suppose that the house was much more anxious to protect the power of giving offices for seats in parliament, than of giving money. At present the house were only sitting in committee to make the bill as unobjectionable as possible, and it was well understood that after it had gone through the committee, there would be a serious opposition to it upon the report. Now he, for his part, although very anxious that the bill should pass, would really not know how to defend it when it came under discussion, if this most important clause were altered in the manner proposed by the right hon. gent. It would seem as if the influence of the Treasury were to be protected at all events. He thought that the words used in another act of parliament, "for his own profit, benefit, promotion, or preferment," would do well enough in the present, instance. He did not think the words "expressed or implied" were so necessary as they appeared to some gentlemen He should rather have them left out in both cases than applied to one, and not to the other.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he, on the contrary, would rather that they should be applied to both cases, and that the original clause should stand, than that those words should be entirely left out. He again called the attention of the committee to the very heavy punishments which this bill inflicted on the givers and receivers of money or offices; and for the reasons he had before given, had no objection to the penalties attaching where it could be proved that there was any specific agreement to give an office

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for the purpose of obtaining a seat; but he thought it too much that a very severe penalty should attach on merely an implied contract. It was hard to say what slight circumstances might induce a jury to believe that a contract was implied, whenever an office was given to any person who was an elector. The giving money to an elector was, however, a very different thing; and the motive could not be so easily misunderstood.
Mr. Tierneyexpressed his astonishment that the right hon. gent. could suppose that a jury could imply any corrupt motive, where none existed, when it was so well known to be the duty of a jury to ascertain, by evidence, what was right and what was wrong. He was still satisfied there was no necessity for separating the provisions as to money from those as to offices.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that, the only person to be turned out of parliament was the person who had purchased the seat; he who had given it was liable to a penalty of 500 l.
Mr. Ponsonbyobjected to the right hon. gent.'s proposition upon another principle; he objetced to the distinction which it went to draw between an express and an implied contract, the effect of which would be to render the provisions of the bill a mere delusion. The right hon. gent.'s proposition denied any jurisdiction to a committee or a court of law, unless an actual express corrupt agreement could be proved; so that let the inference of such corruption be ever so strongly established, and the minds of the judge and jury ever so completely satisfied of the offence, it could not be punished. This he thought highly objectionable. With respect to the penalty of 4 or 500 l. he did not think that the house would do its duty if it did not make the offence a misdemeanour.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the observation just made shewed him the necessity of the clause. It bad been stated, that in consequence of his proposition, a jury would be obliged to acquit, unless evidence of an express contract or agreement could he adduced. This, he was of opinion, ought to be the case. It was actually necessary to make such a provision, unless they wished to prevent the giving of offices to relations or friends. Somebody should be appointed to office it is true, but then it would be inquired why was A. preferred to B?
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and it would be difficult to explain that, unless by following up the qualification that led to the preference. It was to guard against charges of this nature that he had suggested his amendment.
Mr. Tierneysaid, that if they determined that an express agreement should be proved, no Treasury would be absurd enough to come to an express agreement; so that the evil would not be remedied. It was calculated to screen the Treasury. The right. hon. gentleman was willing to adopt the words, as applied to money; but he (Mr. T.) was desirous to extend them to offices also, as he did not see any reason for the exception.
Lord H. Pettysaid, that if one course was to be forbidden, and another permitted, they might depend upon it the course permitted would be the one adopted. Everyone of the corrupt transactions that had been performed were without any express agreement, and they would still continue to be transacted in the same way. If a jury was not competent to decide upon a question of implication, what would become of the administration of law in the country? An implied agreement, he contended, was as capable of proof as an express one.
Mr. C. Wynnsaid, it was well known that many voters, though they received nothing for their actual votes, obtained five guineas for shaving the member, or some such act. He objected that there was no provision made for the punishment of a person who purchased a seat for another, without any emolument to himself.
Mr. Davies Giddydid not disapprove of the honourable and legitimate application of money to procure seats; but corruption he disapproved of as much as any man. If that species of influence was excluded, another would be substituted in its place, perhaps not more advantageous to the country. They who promised to take off taxes; they who resorted to large professions, and the arts of popular eloquence, would succeed, if the influence of property were destroyed. He had no hesitation in stating, in his place, that if the government was what many gentlemen contended for, in theory, it would be the most impracticable form that ever was attempted. If mankind were so formed as to be adapted to it, they would require no government at all. Without a system of influence, no government could exist. There was a distinction between public

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and private questions, which rendered a jury far more competent to decide in the latter than in the former case. Their passions and prejudices were not called into action to the same degree. He concluded with inculcating the necessity of distinguishing between corruption and influence.
Sir Thomas Turtondid not understand the meaning of an honourable and legitimate application of money to procure seats in parliament. With respect to the immediate question, he saw no inconvenience that could result from committing the question of implication to a jury. He thought there were too many words about the bill, and wished to see it include every description of undue influence.
Mr. Adamthought the bill in its original state better than at that moment. They ought to leave the operation of the law on the word "agreement," which was perfectly understood, whether tried by a Committee of that house or by a jury.
Mr. Curwensaid, he would wish to leave out both the words "express" and "implied."
Sir J. Anstrutherthought this clause was meeting an evil in the way in which it did not exist. If they added to the penalty by making it heavier, or by making it a forfeiture of the office, he thought it would do.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that leaving out the words "express," or "implied," might relieve the debate on that clause; but he must insist on the word "express" being in the other clause respecting offices.
Mr. Curwenmoved as an amendment, That the member proved guilty of corruptly procuring his election, should not only be disqualified from sitting in parliament for the particular place where the act was committed, but that he should be excluded from the whole of that parliament.
After a discussion of considerable length, in which the amendment was supported by Messrs. Tierney, Wynne, Whitbread, Lord Porchester, Mr. Lyttleton, Mr. Adam, Mr. W. Smith, and Lord H. Petty, and opposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hawkins Browne, the Solicitor General, and Mr. Abbot, a division took place. For the amendment 60; Against it 81; Majority 21.
On the clause respecting the Oath,
Mr. Tierneyexpressed his opinion that some oath was necessary, but objected to the original oath in the bill us being too ab-
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stract, and not going into detail. He then, proposed an amendment, an oath, specifying more particularly the abjurations.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontended that all the objections to which the former oath was liable, weighed equally against the one now proposed.
Mr. Tierneydenied that this oath would be conscientiously taken by any one who had contracted for his seat.
Mr. Ponsonbydefended the amended oath, and remarked that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he blamed all other oaths, proposed none of his own.
Mr. Curwenargued in favour of some oath, but still thought, even if the oath was left out, that by this measure a seed was sown, whose beneficial fruits would be extensive.
Mr. Wilberforcecontended for the necessity of an oath, but did not wish one to be included in the bill, unless the penalties of perjury were attached to it.
Mr. Tierneyhad no objection that the penalties of perjury should be attached to the oath. The only reason why he did not introduce them was, that, in examining the statute book, he could not observe them included in any oath which went into detail.
Lord Miltonsupported the necessity of an oath, and the propriety of attaching penalties to it. He thought the amended oath proposed much less applicable than the original one.
Mr. Secretary Canningcontended for the original oath; he denied that the amended oath could be taken by any member, because it made a man swear that he had not been returned by the expenditure of any sum of money; this was impossible, because legal expences might be included under it. He did not think the penalties of perjury should now, for the first time, be introduced into an oath of detail.
Mr. Roseasked what situation a member would be in, who, after he had taken the oath, should be declared to have been guilty of bribery by a committee of the house? Would not this go a great way to convict him of perjury?
Sir T. Turtonsaid, that the people of England would think the person who could not take this oath guilty of bribery; and that the legal expenses between which and bribery the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) could not distinguish, were such as a man might be arrested for if he did not pay.
Mr. Rosesaid, that if the hon. baronet

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were to open all the houses in the Borough, he might be arrested for the reckonings.
Sir T. Turtonsaid he had never done so, and should not, although the right hon. gent. had set him the example (Hear, hear!).
The Speakersaid, he had stated, when he was indulged with the hearing of the Committee on a former occasion, his wish for a proper oath, and his coincidence in the opinion of sir William Blackstone; but he, at the same time, stated, that the oath was not indispensable, and, if there was much diversity of opinion on the subject, it would be better not to insist upon it. It was of so much importance to obtain the recognition of the house to a bill with the principles of the present, that he should be sorry to lay this, or any other difficulty in the way that might endanger its passage through the house.
Mr. H. Thorntonthought, that if the words "contrary to the meaning of this act," were inserted, and the penalties of perjury forborn, the objections to the oath would be removed.
Sir T. Turtonbegged to state an amendment he should propose when the present was disposed of, to the effect that the member had not, nor had any person for him purchased his seat.
Lord Porchesterobjected to any oath referential to an act of parliament.
The house was then cleared for a division; but no division took place, and the Committee reported progress, and asked leave to sit again the next day.
Adjourned at four o'clock on Wednesday morning.