Commons Sitting of 27 February 1809

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The Secretary at Warsaid that as upon that day week the
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establishment for the army had been voted, he had now only to move for the remaining Estimates which had upon that day been postponed. There would be found some increase in some few Estimates, owing to the increase of our effective force within the year; most, however, of the Estimates would be found to be nearly the same as those of the last year. The firs article in which any material difference had occurred, was in that of the Estimates for the Staff and Garrison. The Staff abroad had been necessarily increased, particularly in Spain and Portugal. There had been before that 10,000 l.allowed for the Staff abroad, on the score of Contingencies, but this sum had not been found to be adequate. The next article of increase was that of the Estimates for the full pay of the Supernumerary Officers; and there would be also found in the Estimates of the public department, an increase of 60,000 l. but, as a balance against this, the public fees in the Pay Office, and in some measure in the War Office, had been done away. Besides, he wished the Committee to observe that much of what was hitherto rated under the head of Contingencies, was now reduced to distinct and specified Estimate, so that in fact there was no increase of expence, it was merely nominal and only an increase of Estimate. There would be found, too, some small increase as to the charge of the Half Pay Fund, and also in the Estimate for the Out-Pensioners; the increase on account of the expences of the Local Militia could be obviously accounted for; that description of force far exceeded in expence the Volunteer establishment, the increase would amount to 1,200,000 l; there was a rough Estimate of the cloathing for the Local Militia of 400,000 l; but his sum would go to provide for the four succeeding years. There would be also a slight increase in the Estimates for the Royal Military College and Military Asylum. The rest of the Estimates would be found to be the same as last year.
Mr. H. Martinsaid, that when the excess of the Estimates for the current year over those of the past amounted to 1,500,000 l. that house had some right to demand every explanation as to the cause and circumstances of the increase. The excess in the Estimate for the Public Departments amounted to 60,000 l. There was charged for the Exchequer Fees 96,601 l. when the Foes themselves amounted only to 11,600 l. For the office of the Paymasters General the Estimate was 54,771 l. exceeding the

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same of last year by 20,000 l. This increase had been accounted for by the addition to the number of deputy paymasters, but were not many of those places sinecures; The allowance for the expences of the office of Secretary at War, his deputies, clerks, and assistants, was this year 54,848 l. here the excess over that of the last year amounted to 27,848 l. There had been also an excess in the Estimate for the Foreign Corps. There had been also introduced new heads of Estimates that had never been mentioned before. There were under these heads miscellaneous charges to the amount of 70,800 l.; of this 54,000 l. was under new heads. For the Foreign Depot there had been a charge of 5,000 l. which was new. There had been also a new Estimate, under the head of Foreign Invalids, which amounted to 4,830 l. He wished to have these additional charges accounted for.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that with respect to the public department, the increase was merely nominal, the fees having been allotted to the expenditure of the War Office. There had been an addition of one or two clerks, and the salaries of the junior clerks were to go on progressively, in a certain proportion. With respect to the Foreign Corps, much of its expences were hitherto charged under the head of Contingencies, but now the same expences were stated under distinct Estimates, so that the increase here was nominal. In the same way other items, which had been under the head of the Extraordinaries, were now reduced to Estimate.
Mr. Longconfirmed this statement, and said, that it was in most instances an increase of Estimate, and not an increase of Expence. There was an addition of 11,000 l. on Exchequer Fees, but of those there had been a deficiency of 5,800 l. With respect to the Deputy Pay-masters abroad, those were formerly provided for, under the head of Contingencies, to the amount of 15,000 l. but they were now given in Estimate. He did not know of one Deputy Paymaster's place which was a sinecure, but that of Gibraltar, which had been so for lime immemorial. He had never appointed any person to that situation, who had not been required to do the duties of it; there was a necessary addition to the expences under this head, in consequence of the Deputy Paymasters who were sent out with sir John Moore and gen. Spencer, and at Madeira.
lord A. Hamiltondid not see how the
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mode of proceeding with respect to the Fees, and the application of them to the expences of the Pay-office, or War-office, could bring before the public the exact estimate.
General Fitzpatrickwished to know, whether it was intended to abolish the private fees?
The Secretary at Warapprehended, that that would be productive of inconvenience; but that however the subject would be taken into due consideration.
Earl Templebore evidence to the accuracy of Mr. Long's statement,
Mr. C. W. Wynnwished to know, whether it was the intention of government to relieve the parishes from the unjustifiable burdens imposed upon them by the system of volunteering into the Local Militia? He wished also to know, whether any allowance would be made to the smaller corps of Volunteers, as otherwise he feared, that this valuable force would be considerably diminished in the course of the present year. He wished also to put the June and August corps on a similar footing with other corps.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that the points alluded to by the hon. gent. were already under consideration, and would be duly attended to.
Mr. H. Martinsaid, that there were 40,000 l. for telegraphic buildings in Ireland in the Estimates. The state of the atmosphere in Ireland was so unfavourable, that some explanation ought to be given when such a sum was required.
Sir A. Wellesleyobserved, that an attempt had been made to convey intelligence by telegraph through Galway and Athlone to Dublin, instead of the former communication by the circuitous line of the coast; and though this might be more expensive at first, it would ultimately be cheaper.
Mr. M. Fitzgeraldsaid, that the Royal Malta regiment was said, on one occasion, to have thrown down its arms. It was important that this should be contradicted, if not true; and if it was true, the expence ought to constitute no part of the recruiting fund of this country.
Mr. Wilberforceexpressed surprize at the system which still prevailed about Army Chaplains. As for the description of persons who were chaplains about ten years ago, he had an instinctive feeling, which made him wish to get rid of them. He wished, however, that our army should have the benefit of religion free from the abuses of the former institution. If sol-

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diers went to the parochial church, they often found there was no accommodation for them; and as to saying prayers for them at a different hour, it was depriving the parish church of what was most interesting in public worship, when all ranks and degrees assembled together, to worship their common father and benefactor. He thought that it was of the utmost importance that armies, going on foreign service, should have proper clergymen to administer the consolations of religion to the wounded and the dying. He thought there ought also to be some religious instruction and consolation for the many Black Regiments in his majesty's service in the West Indies.
The Secretary at Warrepeated, that considerable improvements had already taken place in the appointment of Chaplains, and still further improvements were intended. As to the conduct of the Malta Regiment, he had not information enough on the subject to enable him at present to give an opinion.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, there was a subject which he had long wished for an opportunity to allude to, and which he did not yet wish to make any regular motion about. As he considered it connected with our military means, he should take the present opportunity of stating it. The island of Sicily had long been occupied by our troops, and was dependent upon them for its defence. Now, though he was averse, generally, to the principle of interfering in the affairs of another government, yet, when we took upon us to defend Sicily against all attacks, we should be justified in seeing that the government of that country took proper measures for their own defence. The accounts of all travellers for the last century coincided in stating, that the Sicilians were by no means attached to the Neapolitan government, which was most intolerably oppressive. He had some conversation with sir John Moore before he went to that island, and it was the opinion of that gallant officer, that the island was in some danger on that account. Another gallant officer (sir John Stuart), who was a distant relation of his, had expressed to him the same idea. Now, he thought we could do our business more efficaciously, with a smaller body of men, if we would but suggest to the government of Sicily the necessity of adopting such measures as would secure the affections of the inhabitants. Having thrown out this idea, for the consideration of his majesty's ministers, he did
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not mean to press it further, or to make any motion to the house upon it.
The several Resolutions were then put and agreed to.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. R. Ward rose to move the Navy Estimates.
Sir C. Polethought that the Navy Estimates should be delayed until the house had time to consider the Reports of the Naval Commissioners, upon which those Estimates were founded. The Fourth Report was, as he had understood, only laid upon the table of the house that day.
Mr. Wardhad no objection to put off the Estimates for a certain time, in order to give gentlemen time to read the Reports; he must, however, deny that these Estimates were altogether formed from those Reports. The various items of the Navy Estimates had been before the house a long time, and gentlemen could see they were only the common and ordinary charges.
Lord H. Pettythought, that if this Fourth Report, which had been laid upon the table that day, contained the reasons which induced the lords of the admiralty to present those Estimates, the house should have time to examine that Report, and judge of those reasons.
Mr. Whitbreadthought it strange that Reports, stated to be made in the year 1807, should not be laid on the table of that house till 1809.
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid that it was the general custom, when a Report was made, to send it to the board to which it related, in order to regulate its conduct. They were afterwards got back from those boards to be copied, and as those Reports were many and voluminous, the copying of them necessarily took up a great deal of time. He was free to admit, that he had not conceived that it would be material to have the Report sooner on the table. The Fourth Report had been acted on for some time, had been printed by the navy board, and was pretty generally circulated. He confessed he had waited till all the Reports were copied, instead of laying them on the table one by one.
Mr. Wardsaid that of the 1,500,000 l. which the Estimates of the present year exceeded that of last year, 1,275,000 l. was for transports.
Mr. Whitbreadthought the hon. gent. ought to have presented the Reports of the naval commissioners one by one as they came out, and not have waited till they were collected in large folio volumes,

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which the house had not time to take into consideration.
Mr. Wilberforcethought, that the Reports ought to have been laid on the table the first day of the session, but he did not think there should be any longer delay in bringing forward the Navy Estimates than till next Friday.
Sir C. Polesaid, that he certainly did not disapprove of that part of the increase of the expenditure, which proceeded from giving an augmentation to the salaries of the Clerks in the Admiralty. He thought, however, that the board of admiralty had been guilty of great extravagance, and that there must be considerable irregularities in paving the different ships. The crew of the Saturn, a 64, had been seen parading about the streets of the metropolis, and had gone down in a body to the admiralty to demand their pay. He disapproved of the appointment of the additional Commissioners of the Navy, and feared that those appointments were obtained through private influence, and that it was not for the good of the service.
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid, that as to the appointments of the persons who were to be the naval commissioners, lord Mulgrave had made it from a list which had been returned, to him by the naval lords, of those captains that were most fit to be commissioners in the navy, and that from that list the appointment was offered to each according to his seniority. As to the crew of the Saturn, the real story was this: That ship had been a long time in India, and on her return to this country, the men got leave of absence from their captain. It was a regulation introduced by the present admiralty, that when a ship returned from having been long abroad on a foreign station, the men were to receive immediately a certain proportion of their pay, and to have leave (if their captain permitted them) to go and see their friends. Now, the Saturn happened not to fall directly within the order, for receiving a certain proportion of pay. The men, however, got leave of absence, and finding themselves in London without Money, they waited at the admiralty, and respectfully asked for a part of their pay. They were ordered to return, and report themselves to their captain, which they immediately did, and by the orders of the admiralty, they received that proportion of their pay, and got farther leave of absence to see their friends. As to the Victualling hoard, the abuses in that department had
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been so gross, that it was absolutely necessary to make some changes. He would instance one case, where a man charged 4,000 ton of casks more than existed, and yet his accounts were passed as perfectly regular. The duties of the victualling board had been increased twelvefold since 1798. He meant nothing disrespectful of those dismissed; they had long been in the service, and were very respectable men; but both Mr. Marsh and Mr. Budge were very infirm, and desirous of retiring. Lord Mulgrave called on the members of the board for their opinion, and on their suggestion, he chose Mr. Browne and Mr. Hobbin, the former of whom had been secretary to lord Keith, and the latter secretary to lord Howe. When lord Mulgrave came to the admiralty, it had been previously determined, that Mr. Harrison was to retire from the public service on 500 l. a year, being 3-3ths of his salary, and his place he gave to col. Welsh, who had long been an officer in the public service, was a man of business, and a great part of his business was to provide necessaries for the army.— The hon. gent. entered into a defence of lord Mulgrave, as to the appointments which had been alluded to, and insisted, that the Estimates of the Navy did not depend on the Fourth Report, on which so much stress had been laid by the hon. bait. and assured the committee, that whenever the subject came before them, he would be glad to meet the hon. bait., or any other member, on every point which they embraced. He was glad, however, that his hon. friend (Mr. Ward) had agreed to postpone the consideration of them till Friday.

MR. JOHN ANNESLEY SHEE.
Mr. Bankes(Chairman of the East India Committee to enquire into the Sale of Places, &c. in the Company's service) rose in his place and addressed the Chair.
The Speakerdesired the Serjeant might be called, who immediately appeared at the bar. The Speaker asked him if he had any thing to communicate to the house relative to Mr. John Annesley Shee?
The Serjeant answered, that Mr. Francis Wright, one of the messengers, had been to Mr. Shee's lodgings for the purpose of serving the Speaker's warrant on him, but that he was not to be found.—Mr. Francis Wright was then ordered to attend; and he stated at the bar, that on Tuesday evening last, he received the Speaker's warrant to take into his custody the said

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J. A. Shee; that he went accordingly to his lodgings at No. 31, High-street, Mary-le-bone, and on enquiry for him was told he was gone out, and would not return till evening. He waited there till midnight, in expectation of his return, but Shee never came. He went again on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, but he was not returned. Mr. Wright, on the Friday, proceeded from No. 31, High-street, to No. 51, Upper Mary-le-Bone-street, where J. A. Shee had formerly lodged, and where he had advertised the sale of Commissions in the Army, &c. under the firm of Shee and Calvert; but the said Shee was not there, nor had been for a great while, nor did they know any thing of him. He was ordered to withdraw.
Mr. Bankesthen moved, That it appeared to the house the said John Annesley Slice had absconded to avoid being examined: which being agreed to, he moved that an Address be presented to his majesty, in the usual way, praying him to issue his Proclamation with such rewards as to his majesty should seem meet, for apprehending and taking the said John Annesley Shee, alias Calvert, which was ordered.

CORN DISTILLERY PROHIBITION BILL.
The order of the day being read for taking into consideration the report of this bill,
Sir J. Newport,in allusion to what had fallen from Mr. Foster on a former night, declared his conviction, that the Irish people, far from burning with a disposition to resist the laws, were well disposed to respect them, if government would apply themselves to the correction of what was improper in the administration of those laws. If the right hon. gentlemen were desirous to confer a benefit on Ireland, he assured them they would do infinitely more to tranquillize the people by comprehending Ireland under this act than by all the penal laws on their Statute book. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) had on this occasion furnished him with argument against himself. He had proposed considerable augmentations to the different Charities in Ireland, on account of the en-creased rate of provisions in 1809 more than in 1808. And with the same breath he proceeded to allow the distillery from corn in Ireland, as if corn in that country instead of rising had fallen in price during the latter year. He concluded by moving that the Report be recommitted for the purpose of introducing a clause, extending the prohibition to Ireland.
Mr. Fullerwas ashamed of ministers, for the way in which they had treated this question. Of all weak questions which had been agitated in this house, the present, he thought, was the weakest. If they could not check illicit distillery in Ireland, were they therefore to allow it to go on at full swing? On the same principle should they allow smuggling to take its course in this country. He was really ashamed of ministers. This seemed to be a question as to which of the two Chancellors of the Exchequer wore the breeches. They were wrong in letting out such private quarrels, which would be better concealed. He did not wish to say any ill of the Irish, but he believed they only wanted catching and taming. By allowing them to carry on illegal distillery, we only made them ten times worse. He advised the Chancellor of the Exchequer of England not to yield too much to the Irish Chancellor; else he would find him like an amiable female they had seen in that house, Mrs. Clarke; the more was conceded to him, he would look for so much the more.
Sir T. Turtoncould not perceive why the prohibition should not be as extensive as it was last year. The prices of corn were as high, the ports of the continent were closely shut. Common sense and the justice of the case demanded that the prohibition should be extended to Ireland. By the act of Union it was declared, that a reciprocity of interests should exist between the two countries; not that the landed interest of the one country should be upheld at the expence of the other. Wheat was five guineas a quarter; barley, 2l. Hs. oats, two guineas, the quartern loaf was 14 d. Under such circumstances, if corn was as abundant in Ireland as it had been stated to be, he begged for God's sake that we might have it here. There was great reason to believe that a considerable proportion of the wheat sown last year would be worth nothing. It became, therefore, doubly incumbent upon us to husband our present resources. He denied that, in the measure of the last session, the interests of the West India Merchants had been expressly consulted. The Report of the Committee to investigate the subject had recommended the prohibition of distillation from grain, on the ground of the scarcity of grain, not as a boon to the West India Merchants. As therefore no boon had in that, case been given to the West India Merchants, so

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neither was it right to give a boon to the landed interest of Ireland at the expence of the general interests of both countries.
Mr. Hibbertsaid, that the bill, in its present shape, considering the object at which it professed to aim, was indeed of a most extraordinary character: before he stated his opinion concerning it, he begged to say one word of the measure of last year, which did not originate in the distress of the West India commerce, although it would have been folly and affectation not to perceive that the relief of that trade might be in part effected by the temporary measure which was then, upon other and independent grounds, adopted. He owed it to the house to say, as others had done, that the result to the colonial trade had been greatly and critically beneficial. His hon. friends who had given their opposition to that measure upon principles good and sound, but admitting of exception (and the house and the country had judged it right to interpose such exception) would, he was persuaded, hear this acknowledgment with pleasure. Indeed, their objections lay against the precedent chiefly, and against the continuance of the restriction, under present circumstances, they appeared to have little to urge.—Of the bill now before the house, he wished to speak with parliamentary freedom; it was a compound of materials so contrived as to neutralise each other, a series of positive and negative quantities, plus and minus, minus and plus, that, when you come to count them altogether, amounted to just nothing. It professed to aim at the œconomy of grain, and it was plain enough that the empire in general stood in need of such œconomy; but this measure would directly stimulate an extra consumption of grain in one part, and to that part grain might be sent from every other part of the empire; we dread the evil, and yet appoint for it a legitimate existence; in Great Britain we must not manufacture spirits from grain, but we know they will be corrected there, and we permit them to be made in Ireland, where we are told that illegal traffic reigns without controul. If we could, by art and ingenuity, produce from sugar a spirit which might prove popular in Ireland, thither we cannot send it; but grain we may, and grain, even at excessive prices, they will take from us, because the best grain is most profitable in distillation. Of all the descriptions of grain, it is of oats that we most apprehend a scarcity. Oats
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are what Ireland can best supply, and yet oats are what she is most apt, and is now to be encouraged to distil. These were extraordinary circumstances to be found together in one measure, and demanded some better explanation than had yet been afforded to the house.—No one denied that, in the Act of Union, there existed provisions which, for the benefit of both parts of the empire, ought to be revised and altered. But it was one thing to interpose a temporary interruption of the intercourse with a view to remove those inequalities, and quite another to shew, as this bill would shew, that we are not in fact an united empire, that our interests are essentially distinct, and that one uniform law will not suit us. Surely this was the happy moment for impressing on both parts of the empire the benefits of the Union. Upon England, by proving teller in an hour of alarm and anxiety for food, (the Continent and America still shut against her,) the advantage of her Irish granary. Upon Ireland, by extending, even to her most remote and unfrequented markets, the benefits so much wanted of English demand and English capital. These advantages, however, were to be slighted; the price of grain in Ireland was to be sustained by expedients of a more narrow and selfish character, and the cultivator taught stupidly to intoxicate himself with his produce, even on the field where it was grown, rather than feed the sister country with it, and thereby enrich and support both. Such a measure he could have expected from no one but from a systematic and bitter enemy of the very principle of the Union.—In reply to these considerations, the only argument he had heard was that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland. "We have, said that hon. gent., grain enough for both the purposes; we can supply your wants and still have plenty left for distillation, and, if you forbid the use of grain in the distilleries of Ireland, you will not (I almost thought he said you shall not) save one grain of corn by your law." Are we to take this for granted, contradicted as it is by the petitions on your table, and by the lamentable evidence of excessive prices still progressively increasing? Are we to admit the fact of the actual detection and destruction of unlicensed stills in Ireland as a proof that they cannot be detected and destroyed? Is it with the revenue law in general as we have heard it is occasionally with the tolls,

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where the gate-man opens the gate to the gentleman as he rides through, and asks, with hat in hand, if his honour pleases to pay to day? If 150 private stills have in one district been destroyed in one morning are we to conclude that 150 rise at once from their ruins? All illicit trade, even Irish illicit trade, must be carried on under risk disadvantage and extra expence, more or less, and could not exist except there was, in the provision of the law which it meant to elude, a commensurate premium to set against these disadvantages. This premium might be the subject of precise calculation, three shillings might not do it in some particular case where four shillings barely would, and five would put the matter past all doubt. This premium the measure of last year had held out; this the Chancellor of the Exchequer of England confessed when he allowed that the trial had not been a fair one, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland, while he denied it in words, yet admitted it in effect, by saying that if ever the distillation from sugar was again attempted in Ireland, he would advise that it should be subjected to a lower duty than that last year imposed. He represented the stills in Ireland as multiplying like the heads of Hydra, but even the monster Hydra had yielded at last to Hercules; and really his rt. hon. friend had accomplished such mighty labours, that, with the help of major Swan for his Iolas, he ought not to despair of overthrowing and finally trampling under his foot this many-headed monster of Irish illicit trade. At all events, he thought it would not be adviseable for the house to afford to that gentleman a new opportunity of proving, by measures of his own contrivance, the truth of his favourite maxim, that in matters of agriculture legislative interference was not only futile but dangerous. His rt. hon. friend would doubtless at some future day convince the house from this bill, to which he had given its present shape, that if you desire to legislate with effect you must not introduce into your law the germ that will blight the fruit you expect from it.—There was nothing upon the table, nothing brought to the bar to prove the statements of the rt. hon. gent; they were sustained only by good round energetic assertions, and by the influence of his commanding eloquence. He trusted that the house would not lay its discretion at the feet of the rt. hon. gent. but by recommitting the bill, with an instruction to extend its provisions
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to Ireland, give at least one fair trial whether for an object so generally momentous it was not yet possible to pass one uniform measure of legislation for the United Empire.
Sir R. Peeleexpressed his conviction that if the bill were passed in its present shape, the most fatal consequences might ensue. He wished that the two countries might go hand in hand; and mutually assist one another. The north of England stood very much in need of the produce of Ireland. Owing to the depression of manufactures and trade, the people there were not half fed. The oats of Ireland would satisfy them. They had hitherto conducted themselves with great temper and patience; but if they understood that a part of that which might, be appropriated to their support was allowed to be consumed, not in the preservation but the destruction of man, they might probably not remain so well satisfied.
Sir A. Wellesleydeclared himself to be of opinion that the people of England would not get a grain of corn less out of Ireland, if the bill should stand as it then was, than if the prohibition were extended to the latter country. Grain in Ireland was much more abundant than in the last year. The price of provisions would show this, for though comparatively high in the market of Dublin, it was much lower in Ireland in general. If he thought that the measure would bear hard upon G. Britain, he would unquestionably vote against it; but being satisfied of the contrary, it should have his cordial support.
Mr. Curwendescribed the scarcity of oats in the North of England, and particularly in Cumberland, to be very great. They were not able to get them from Wexford under 37s. per quarter. He was desirous that the prohibition should be extended to Ireland, and he was satisfied that it would not at all injure the agriculture or interests of that country. For the purpose of preventing the illicit distillation, a reduction might be made in the duties on the spirits distilled from sugar; and in the present flourishing state of the revenue, such a sacrifice might be well made in preference to bearing hard upon the people. He recommended that if the present bill should be passed, its duration should be limited to two months, in order to give time for an ample investigation of the expediency of a more permanent measure.
Mr. Parnelldeclared that the present

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bill was a direct violation of the Act of Union, and one of a nature unprecedented since the passing of that act. By that act, a final and permanent adjustment of commercial jealousies had been made, and the house ought to pause, before it enacted a law which distinctly violated that compact.
Mr. Fostercomplained, that the right hon. Bart. (sir J. Newport), had misrepresented him, when he stated that he had said the people of Ireland naturally disobeyed the law. All that he had observed on that subject was, that the lower orders from their ignorance of the law, held it in utter contempt, and were guilty of disobedience to it. The right Son. bart. had himself declared that the higher orders were at least as apt to encourage the infraction of the law as the lower orders to commit it. If therefore, he could for a moment suppose (which he did not] that such was the right hon. baronet's intention, he might infer that he meant to extend the accusation of a proneness to disobedience, to a much greater sphere. The right hon. bart. had said, that he (Mr. E.) induced the Committee of Supply that evening to vote increased sums to public Charter Schools, on the ground of the increased price of provisions. It was on the ground of the increased price of other articles besides provisions: of clothes, &c. If the present bill were to hinder corn coming from Ireland to England, he would not urge it. But it was only to prevent the corn from getting into the hands of the private distillers, and thus ultimately from injuring the morals of the country. Not one-third of the illicit stills in Ireland had been seized; and yet it was computed that by that one-third, no less than 800,000 gallons of whiskey had been made in a month. The quantity remaining on hand of the foreign spirits which had been imported into Ireland since last July sufficiently evinced the enormous supply from the private stills. Adverting to a statement made by an hon. gent. that oats could not be obtained in Cumberland from Wexford under 37s. a quarter; he expressed his surprize at this circumstance, as he held in his hand an official return from Newry, (directly opposite to the shores of Cumberland), dated Feb. 11, in which the price of oats was stated to be 25s. and 2d. British per quarter. In other places the price was somewhat less. An hon. gent. behind him (Mr. Fuller) had talked of catching and taming the Irish.
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Part of them had been caught in the net of the Union, did they require taming? He wished the hon. gent. would come over to Ireland, and see if the Irish were as wild and as violent as he represented them to be. On the contrary, he was satisfied that although the speech which the hon. gent. had made that night were tied about his neck, he might travel from one end of Ireland to the other in perfect security, and he was sure that he would every where meet with the greatest hospitality. He denied that the bill was any violation of the principle of the act of Union, although it might appear to be an infringement on the letter of it.
Mr. Brownestated, that to his certain knowledge conditional orders had beer, sent to this country from Ireland, to transmit thither very large quantities of grain, provided the prohibition of this distillation should not be extended to that country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepresented the improbability of such a circumstance, if the hon. gent. meant that any but seed corn had been so ordered. For the price of grain being dearer in G. Britain than in Ireland, it was extravagant to suppose that it could be intended to buy in the dear market for the purpose of selling in the cheap.
The question being loudly called for, the gallery was cleared, and a division took place,

For the original Motion

61

For the Amendment

90

Majority against Ministers

38

The House then went into a Committee to consider of the propriety of encouraging the importation of Flax Seed into Ireland.
Mr. Foster,after stating that this was merely a temporary measure, which he trusted would lead to the culture and preservation of the article in sufficient quantity for the uses of this country, proposed that a bounty of 5s. per bushel should be allowed on the first 50,000 bushels of Foreign Flax Seed, imported into Ireland from the 8th of March to the 8th of April, 1809.
After some observations from sir T. Turton, Mr. Rose, and sir G. Hill, the Resolution was agreed to.