Commons Sitting of 13 May 1808

PETITION RESPECTING THE REPORT ON DISTILLATION FROM SUGAR.
General Gascoynepresented a petition from the gentlemen, clergy, merchants, and other inhabitants of Liverpool; setting forth, "That the said town essentially depends for the supply of bread to its numerous inhabitants, and a large and populous district in the interior of the county of Lancaster, upon importations of corn and flour from other parts, and that a large proportion of such supply has heretofore been derived from foreign countries; and that, of late, in consequence of the unhappy situation of the continent of Europe, and the embargo which has taken place in the U. States of America, the importation of foreign corn and flour has ceased, and the prices of these articles have advanced considerably, and are still advancing, while, at the same time, from the stagnation of trade, and the consequent want of employment, and depreciation of wages, the labouring classes of the people are become less able to purchase these necessaries of life at a high rate, or even more reasonable rates, as fully appears by the Report lately made of evidence taken before a committee of the house, ordered to be printed on the 12th of April last, on
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the Petition of certain cotton manufacturers and journeymen cotton weavers living in the county of Lancaster; and that, from the united operation of these circumstances, the petitioners have been, and continue apprehensive of much distress amongst the poor in that populous town and county; and it was with peculiar satisfaction that they observed, in a late Report of a committee of the house, the recommendation of what the petitioners humbly deem a wise measure of precaution loudly called for by the existing situation of the country, namely, the suspension of the use of Grain in the Distilleries of this kingdom, and the restriction of them to the use of Sugar for a limited period; and that, in proportion to the satisfaction of the petitioners in so well-timed a recommendation, is their regret in perceiving that meetings have been held, in some parts of the country, for the purpose of obtaining petitions to the house against the measure in question, as calculated to injure the farmers, and discourage agriculture; and that the petitioners humbly contend that this measure cannot produce those effects, as it appears, by the Report of the committee, that, on an average of the last five years, the importation of foreign corn into Great Britain has not been less than 770,000 quarters per ann., which must, of course, have found a consumption, but which can no longer be imported, while the quantity of corn used in the Distilleries of the United Kingdom does not exceed 780,000 quarters; and therefore the corn to be excluded from the Distilleries by the proposed measure, supposing it to extend to Ireland as well as Great Britain, will only supply the place of the quantity hitherto imported from foreign parts; and that, in addition to the usual foreign supply (of which a large proportion has been received at Liverpool), there has been imported into that place from Ireland, on an average of the last five years, 242,525 quarters of corn, flour, and oatmeal per annum; that, during the period now past of the present year, this usual supply has been greatly diminished, and in place of a continuance thereof at this time, orders for the purchase of considerable quantities of wheat and oats have been received by merchants in Liverpool from millers and others in Ireland, at unlimited prices, to be shipped from thence for the supply of districts in that part of the U. Kingdom, where scarcity appears to be apprehended; and that large supplies of

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corn are annually received at Liverpool from Scotland; that these supplies, during the present year, have been much less than usual, owing to the deficiency of the last crop in several quarters of that part of the U. Kingdom, all which tends to enhance still more the price of bread in that town, already too high for the labouring poor generally to afford, and particularly the manufacturing poor, from the present want of employment, and consequent depreciation of wages; and that, if any insuperable obstacles should prevent this restriction from being extended to Ireland, it appears there would then be a deficiency of 300,000 quarters of foreign supply, to be provided for, if possible, by an extended cultivation of the soil of the U. Kingdom, in order to meet the usual consumption of the country, without taking into the account the extraordinary supplies of corn, flour, and bread, which, in the present situation of affairs, must inevitably be wanted by the West India colonies from the U. Kingdom, as well as that our allies, the Swedes, being deprived of their usual supply of bread corn from the opposite shores of the Baltic, and their own growth being generally inadequate to their ordinary consumption, may at this time be compelled to resort to this country for supplies of barley, which, when mixed with rye, is, as the petitioners are informed, used for bread in times of scarcity in Sweden; and that, in the opinion of the petitioners, the prices of corn are likely to continue high, though they trust that the adoption of this measure will prevent them from becoming exorbitant; that the advantage of exorbitant prices even to the farmer is very questionable, experience having shewn that they terminate eventually in uncommon depreciation, while in the mean time the evils that ensue to the public at large are unquestionably great; and the petitioners feel assured that the house will deem the good of the whole to be preferred to a doubtful interest of one class of the people, however numerous and respectable, a class moreover which being protected, by a special act of the legislature, from the injurious effects of an excessive depreciation of the prices of corn in times of plenty, by bounties on its exportation payable out of the public revenue, ought at other times in fairness and justice to submit chearfully to such measures as may be necessary to guard the public against the contrary extreme of exorbitant prices, particularly in
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the present peculiar situation of the country, and unprecedented state of the continent of Europe; and that, with regard to the local interests of any particular districts in which barley maybe chiefly cultivated, the petitioners conceive they have still less claim to be put into competition with a measure of general advantage; but they are of opinion that even the local interests of the barley countries are not likely to be materially affected by the proposed measure, for though barley is the grain chiefly used in the English distilleries, and though it appears there are some lands in this kingdom where no substitute for the crops of that grain can be resorted to without injury to the farmer, yet, on the other band, it appears there are also lands on which barley is grown where oats would prove an advantageous substitute; and when the petitioners consider, that of the quantity of barley annually produced in England, only one sixteenth part, or thereabouts, has been consumed in the distilleries, they cannot doubt that such a change of culture might take place as would prevent barley from being reduced below its proportionable price, compared with other grain, or, if it should for a time be somewhat lower than its just proportion, it would soon, in the opinion of the petitioners, find a more extended consumption as bread corn, the effect of which must inevitably be to raise it to its natural level; in confirmation of which the petitioners are enabled to state to the house, that of late, in consequence of the advance of wheat and oats, as well as the reduction of wages, the lower classes in the county of Lancaster have begun to have recourse to barley bread, which they are not accustomed to use, except in times of scarcity and comparative dearness of other sorts of grain; and that the petitioners conceive the confining the operation of the measure in question to a single year, with a power vested in his majesty in council to put an end to it within that period if necessary, would be so guarded a proceeding as not to cause in the minds of those concerned the least feeling of alarm or apprehension; and that, although the petitioners are anxious to recommend the proposed measure to the house on grounds of general benefit, without reference to any partial interests, yet they cannot be insensible of its tendency to afford relief to the West Indian colonies in their present distressed situation, which has been shewn to have peculiar claims on the considera-

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tion of the legislature, and which, in the apprehension of the petitioners, affords a strong additional argument in favour of this measure, more especially as the preservation of the colonies from the ruin which threatens them is confessedly an object of the first national importance, as it appears the article of sugar alone pays an annual duty of above three millions to the country; that the manufactured goods exported annually to these colonies have exceeded six millions in value; and that this trade is one of the principal remaining nurseries for our seamen and of employment for our shipping; and therefore praying, that the house will pass an act to suspend the use of grain in the distilleries of Great Britain and Ireland, and to confine them to the use of sugar, for one year, from the first day of July next, subject to a discretionary power to be vested in the king in council, upon a sufficient notice, to do away the suspension, and allow the distilleries to carry on their trade in the accustomed manner."—Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION AGAINST THE CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.
Mr. Charles Dundaspresented a Petition from certain of the clergy resident in the county of Berks, taking notice of the Bill for making more effectual provision for the maintenance of Stipendiary Curates in England, and for their residence on their cures; and setting forth, "That the petitioners, impressed with serious apprehension of the fatal consequences with which the regular clergy and established church of this kingdom are threatened, if the said Bill should pass into law, consequences which they have maturely weighed, and as it became their duty, have anticipated with unimpassioned and unbiassed deliberation, humbly lay the following considerations before the house: That they are penetrated with the deepest concern in contemplating the probable injuries which the character of the clergy of the church of England will sustain as a body, from the suspicions which this Bill is calculated to inspire, suspicions which they conceive are unmerited, tending to lower them in the estimation of the people, and to alienate, if not to destroy, that sentiment of respect and attachment which has been hitherto observed towards the clergy, as an integral and important branch of our constitutional polity, a sentiment which is so eminently necessary to the preservation of our pure religion, as in church and state established; and it has not been without
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the most deep-felt sorrow that they have witnessed the unsubstantiated charges and invectives industriously disseminated and indiscriminately brought forward against the clergy of England, as a negligent and mercenary body, at a time too when their proved zeal and acknowledged efforts, during periods of unexampled danger, which menaced the security not only of the throne and altar, but through them the conservation of property and of the principles of moral order, ought, they have a right to hope, to have been justly appreciated, if not gratefully remembered by their country; and that in these times of unexampled pressure upon the moderately beneficed clergy, they cannot but consider as impolitic, unnecessary, and vexatious, any farther privations tending to destroy the almost solely remaining link which connects the higher with the lower orders of the people, a link which by communicating the wants of the latter to the notice of the former, keeps up an intercourse of benefits and gratitude between both; that the consequent depression of the moderately beneficed clergy, on the contrary, must approximate them too much to the poor to command their respect, and remove them at too great a distance from the rich to obtain their regard and due consideration; and that they conceive the unbeneficed clergy have every reason to be satisfied with the liberal allowance at present in the power of the bishops to assign them, inasmuch as they frequently enjoy resources from which incumbents in general are debarred, such as fellowships, lectureships, chaplaincies, and tuition in all its branches; and indeed they conceive the bill essentially defective in not marking the appropriate difference which obviously distinguishes payment from reward; and that in many instances it will be liable to the objection of giving more, in proportion to the duties performed, than is consistent with strict justice, as it will be found that in general the most valuable benefices are those which enjoy the greatest exemption from arduous duty, and indiscriminate charges of extravagant and disproportioned emoluments may apply to payments, but not to the nature of rewards, regulated by the distinction of age, learning, and dignity; and that this bill, they apprehend, strikes at the very essence of all property, permanent or usufructuary, which it is the fundamental principle and established practice of our constitution to preserve inviolate; and

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as the clergy hold their possessions, they are willing to hope, by as good a title as any other order in the state, if authorized resumptions begin with them, they cannot but suggest the alarming consequences which naturally force themselves upon the imagination; they beg leave also to point out to the house the infinite and much to be deprecated mischiefs which must ensue to them as a body, and to the unbeneficed clergy themselves, from those jealousies and animosities which may unhappily arise between the incumbent and his curate, a circumstance which cannot at all contribute to the practical harmony and edification of the parish, by rendering in many cases the curacy more desirable than the living, and by conferring that independency on the curate which will destroy the natural order of things, and create an inversion unprecedented in every other situation in life, of a deputy being placed above his employer, totally uninfluenced and uncontrouled by him; and that among the numerous evils with which in their estimation the bill is pregnant, the facility it promises to the diffusion of Sectarian principles is not the least alarming; the indignity to which the bill subjects the regular clergy, in authorising the complaints of the church-wardens to the bishops, may unhappily open a door to interested or malevolent misrepresentations, dictated by pique, selfish motives, or religious prejudices; and the divisions which may arise between the different orders of the clergy must infuse new vigour into sectarism, which will naturally derive an accession of strength from a weakened and degraded establishment; and that a bill therefore whose manifest tendency is thus materially to depress and impoverish the regular clergy of this land, they cannot but consider as impolitic as well as unjust, since the same stroke which is inflicted on them must through their sides wound, if not destroy, every other superior order of the state; and (hat they therefore presume to hope that the present situation of curates, where it is found inadequate to their services, will be suffered to receive that progressive amelioration which the present course and operation of circumstances are daily producing in their favour."—Ordered to lie upon the table.

CROWN LANDS.
Mr. Huskisson, after a short statement of the object of his motion, moved a Resolution of the house, that in all Bills of inclosure, draining, &c. in which his majesty's interests, either in
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right of the crown or of the duchy of Lancaster were concerned, a clause should be introduced for the purpose of enabling the surveyor-general of the Crown Lands, or the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster, to appoint a commissioner to superintend the carrying of the bill into effect as far as related to his majesty's rights.
Mr. Whitbreaddid not think a sufficient ground had been laid for a resolution which, in his opinion, went to impose unnecessary expence and inconvenience upon the parties to bills of enclosure. No instance of injury having been done to his majesty's rights had been stated by the hon. gent. He wished the motion could be deferred until the country gentlemen, who were those most nearly interested, should receive information upon the subject.
Mr. Huskissonreplied, that many instances had occurred in which the interests of the crown had been sacrificed from the want of such a clause in bills of enclosure. He particularised one of these instances in the enclosure at Sherwood Forest. As to inconveniencing the parties to such bills, the fact was, that at present where his majesty's interests were concerned, a bill of inclosure could not be introduced in the house without the previous consent of the crown; the resolution which he proposed tended therefore to diminish this obstacle.
Mr. Taylorcontended, that if the interests of the crown had in any case been sacrificed as the practice now stood, it must have been owing to the negligence of the surveyor general of Crown Lands, and surveyor-general of woods and forests, whose peculiar duty it was to examine bills of inclosure, that they might not trench on his majesty's rights. He could not give his consent to the Resolution, because it would load the parties to inclosure bills with a heavy expence, without at all benefiting the interests of the crown.
Mr. Grahamspoke to a similar effect.
Mr. S. Bournesupported the resolution, and sir J. Newport opposed it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdefended the Resolution. The interests of the crown and the interests of the public were one and the same; and any measure that tended to protect the one in this instance must tend to protect the other. He conceived, that the adoption of the Resolution, besides affording an additional security to the interests of the crown, would relieve those who had those interests more immediately in their care from what was

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frequently a very painful duty. The Resolution was then put and agreed to.

LIFE ANNUITY PLAN.
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee, to consider of enabling holders of three per cent. stock, to purchase Life Annuities.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen rose, and addressed the chairman nearly as follows:—Sir, in consequence of the notice which I gave yesterday, I rise to propose to the committee certain Resolutions, for the purpose of enabling persons possessing stock in the 3 per cents. to transfer that stock to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, with the view of obtaining in its stead equivalent Annuities. Though the subject, sir, is of great importance, I do not think that at this moment the Resolutions will lead to any discussion, because I am not disposed to request that the house will form any opinion upon them this night. All that I intend is, after having briefly explained the nature of my proposition, to move the reading of the first Resolution pro formâ, and then to propose, sir, that you report progress. The whole of the Resolutions will be printed, and put into the hands of members as speedily as possible; and I shall defer any motion for resuming this committee until next week, in order that full time may be given for the due consideration of the subject.—Before I proceed in my statement, I think it extremely necessary to guard myself against any misapprehension that might otherwise arise, with respect to the tendency of the measure which I am about to propose in regard to the Sinking Fund. I declare to the committee, that I have no idea, directly or indirectly, of diverting the operation of the Sinking Fund from its natural and proper object, the Redemption of the National Debt. I trust, therefore, that no preconceived opinion on this subject, will be allowed to prejudice the minds of the committee.—I shall now, sir, state the nature of my proposition, and the reasons which induce me to recommend it to the adoption of the committee. I mean to propose, that liberty be given to any person possessing stock in either of the great 3 per cents, (the Consolidated or the Reduced) to transfer that stock into the hands of the commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt; and that on such transfer he be entitled to receive an Annuity for life, amounting to such a sum over and above the dividend on his stock,
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as an accurate calculation of the value of the principal so transferred will prescribe; taking the stock at the current price of the day of transfer, and varying the calculation according to the age of the individual. On these last particulars, however, I must observe, that I would propose to limit the power of transfer to persons under 35 years of age, and the amount of the transfer to sums not less than 100 l. each; the former, because many impositions might otherwise be practised; the latter, because the commutation of smaller sums would cause considerable trouble and inconvenience. The effect, sir, of this measure would, as I conceive, be not only to take out of the market all such stock as would become subject to such commutation, but also to secure to the nation the redemption of the funds so transferred, at the price at which they were when the transfer was made. The committee must be perfectly aware, that the operation of the Sinking Fund has recently very much increased the price of stocks. There is every reason to believe, that by the continuance of that operation, they will still further be increased in price. No one can doubt, sir, that if the measure were consistent with public faith, it would be extremely desirable to give to the nation an opportunity of redeeming the whole of the National Debt at the present price of the stocks, because that would preclude the effect which any future advance in the price of the stocks must have in retarding the operation of the Sinking Fund.—There are two objects which the Sinking Fund has in view; the one to provide for the final redemption of the National Debt, the other to keep up the price of stocks in the market, so as to enable government whenever the exigencies of the state may require it, to make an advantageous loan for the public. These objects, however, sir, are in some degree inconsistent. In some degree they counteract each other. Whatever measure raises the funds, and thus enables government to borrow on the best terms, prevents the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, from reducing that debt on the best terms. Now, sir, the measure which I propose will combine both these objects; it will naturally tend to increase the price of stocks, and it will at the same time secure the redemption at a low price, of so much stock as may be transferred antecedent to the rise produced. All this, sir, must be obvious to the committee, without any de-

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tailed statement, but, I wish to represent to them the manner in which the redemption of the debt will be affected by the purchase of annuities. Every person who transfers his stock to the commissioners, will be entitled to such an annuity as will be equivalent to the value of the stock, and of his life; the calculation proceeding on the principle that the sum which he would otherwise have received as interest, the additional sum granted as an annuity, and the compound interest on the whole, would redeem the sum originally transferred within the period to which the individual's life will be calculated as likely to extend. For instance, if a person were disposed to transfer to the commissioners 1000 l. of 3 per cents. and upon the estimate of the probable duration of his life, and of the compound interest, it should be calculated that he was entitled for that transfer to receive twice the amount of his former interest, he would then have a right to an annuity for life of six per cent. or 60 l. on the whole sum; the calculation proceeding on the principle, that the accumulation of the additional 30 l. would, at the probable close of that person's life, be equivalent to the redemption of the stock originally transferred; and that at the price at which it was originally transferred. Now, if the stocks continued to rise, the redemption of that sum could not be effected without this measure. The whole merit, therefore, sir, of this plan rests on the accuracy of the expectation, that the stocks are likely to rise. I am ready to admit, that if the contrary should take place, the measure will have a tendency directly opposite to that which I expect. The subject which requires our most mature consideration is, whether, under the circumstances in which the country is placed, there is not good reason to believe, or rather to be certain, that a continuance in the application of the means which have hitherto been used to decrease the debt, will produce a continuance of the rise in the price of stocks. The committee will be surprised to learn, that since the negotiation for the last loan, there has been a rise in the funds of 6 per cent. on the stock, or between nine and ten per cent. on the capital. When the loan was concluded last year, the funds were at 62; they are now 68. If, therefore, the measure which I am now proposing had been adopted last year, then, of whatever quantity of stock which might have been converted into annuities since that period, the
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redemption would have been secured at sixty-two. I certainly do not expect, sir, that such a rapid progress in the price of stocks is to be calculated upon for the future; but I do say, that there is every reason to believe, whether we look at a state of war or of peace, that the accumulation of the Sinking Fund must inevitably keep up the price. If the blessings of peace could be restored to the country, the price of stocks would unquestionably rise. Peace has uniformly been found to produce that effect; it tends directly and most particularly to that object; for when there is no necessity for a loan, the Sinking Fund is left to operate by itself, without counteraction or embarrassment. The effect of the peace which succeeded the Treaty of Amiens, was to raise the funds from 59 to 77. At that time the capital of the debt was 478 millions, the sinking fund 5,800,000 l. being an 82nd part of the debt: now, the capital of the debt is 586 millions; the sinking fund above ten millions, being a 58th part of the debt. If therefore peace were restored, there can be no doubt that the operation of the Sinking Fund must inevitably keep up the price of stocks. But, even in the case of a continuance of war, there is every reason to believe from experience, that the operation of the Sinking Fund will be sufficiently powerful, notwithstanding the counteraction of other circumstances, to keep up the price of the funds. If, therefore, in either situation, of peace, or war, there is good ground to believe that stocks will increase in price, it is a strong argument in support of a plan by which a considerable portion of the public debt may be redeemed, at the price at which the stocks may be antecedent to that increase.—There is another circumstance, sir, which the committee must take into their consideration in estimating the merits of this plan; it is the probability or improbability of persons being disposed thus to transfer their stock to any considerable extent. How far that disposition may exist I cannot pretend to determine; but this I know, that as far as it may exist, it will be advantageous to the public. It is very probable, sir, that many individuals would be strongly inclined to dispose of their stock for the purchase of annuities under circumstances which secured to them the acquisition of an increased income, free from any risk to their property, and without the expence and inconvenience attending other modes of obtaining a similar object. Under this

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plan, those individuals would enjoy more advantages, they would receive much better terms than in any negociation of a private nature, because the object of the plan is not to obtain for the public any profit from the sale of annuities, but as I have before stated, to secure the redemption of that part of the stock transferred, at the price which it may bear at the time of the transfer. Thus the full value would be given in the annuity, without any deduction whatever. It is my hope and confident expectation that in the present state of the finances of the country, I shall be able to procure loans in the 3 per cents. redeemable at 80, in which case, in the event of the funds rising above 80, I mean to propose that the stock so created shall not be transferable.—The right hon. gent. concluded with moving the first of the following Resolutions: viz. 1. "That it would tend to a more speedy and efficient reduction of the national debt, and would at the same time, be of material accommodation and convenience to the public, if every proprietor of three per cent. consolidated fund or reduced bank annuities were at liberty to exchange, with the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, such bank annuities for a life annuity during the continuance of a single life, to be named by such proprietor; or for a life annuity during the continuance of the lives of two persons, to be named by such proprietor, and of the life of the longer liver of such two nominees. 2. That, in order to give effect to the aforegoing resolution, every proprietor of three per cent. consolidated or reduced bank annuities, who shall be desirous of exchanging any such bank annuities for a life annuity on the continuance of a single life, shall, on transferring to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt any such batik annuities, be entitled, during the continuance of his or her life, or of the life of some other person to be named by him or her, to receive (under such regulations as parliament may deem it expedient to adopt) for every 100 l. of such bank annuities, and so in proportion for any greater sum than 100 l. of such annuities, transferred to the said commissioners, a life annuity of such annual amount, according to the age of the nominee, and the average price of such bank annuities on the nearest open day preceding the day of the transfer thereof, as is specified in the following table. (This table is printing.) 3. "That,
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in order to give further effect to the aforegoing resolution, every proprietor of 3l. per cent. consolidated or reduced bank annuities, who shall be desirous of exchanging any such bank annuities for a life annuity in the continuance of the lives of two persons, to be named by such proprietor (of whom such proprietor may be one), and the life of the longer liver of them, shall on transferring to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt any such bank annuities, be entitled, during the continuance of such two lives, and of the life of the longer liver of them, to receive (under such regulations as parliament may deem it expedient to adopt) for every 100 l. of such bank annuities, and so in proportion for any greater sum than 100 l. of such annuities tranferred to the said commissioners, a life annuity of such annual amount, according to the respective ages of such two nominees and the average price of such bank annuities on the nearest open day preceding the day of the transfer thereof, as is specified in the following tables. (These tables are printing.) 4. That no person shall be admitted to be a nominee, either for the grant of an annuity for the continuance of a single life, or for the grant of an annuity for the continuance of two lives and of the longer liver of them, who shall be under the age of thirty-five years. 5. That the dividends payable in respect of the bank annuities, which shall be transferred to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, in exchange for life annuities, shall be received by the said commissioners, and shall constitute a part of the funds applicable to the reduction of the national debt; and that out of the said funds applicable to the reduction of the national debt, the said commissioners shall pay the respective life annuities granted in exchange for such bank annuities, during the continuance of the respective lives for which the same shall be payable; and that the said respective life annuities shall be payable half-yearly at the bank of England, on the same days on which the dividends on the stock transferred for the purchase thereof, may be payable in every year; that the first payment of every annuity shall commence on the same day on which the first dividend on the bank annuities so transferred shall be payable to the said commissioners; and that upon the death of any single nominee, or of the surviver of any two joint nominees, a sum equal to one-

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fourth part of the annuity dependant upon his or her life shall he paid to the person entitled to such annuity, or his or her executors or administrators, as the case may be, provided the same shall be claimed within two years after the death of such single or surviving nominee; and that the annual sum payable for every such life annuity so ceasing as aforesaid, shall thenceforth revert to and constitute part of the funds applicable to the reduction of the national debt. 6. That for the purpose of ascertaining the effect of the measure proposed in the aforegoing resolutions, with reference to the redemption of the public debt, a separate account shall be kept half-yearly, by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, of all bank annuities which shall have been transferred to them for the purchase of any life annuities, and of the dividends receivable by them in respect thereof, up to the period of such account; distinguishing therein so much of the said bank annuities as shall have been transferred in the course of the next immediately preceding half-year:—Also a half-yearly account of the amount of all the life annuities granted by them up to the period of such account, distinguishing therein the amount of the life annuities which shall have been granted in the course of the next immediately preceding half-year; and also of the amount of all the annual sums which up to the period of the said account, shall by reason of the deaths of nominees have reverted to the funds applicable to the reduction of the national debt, distinguishing therein the amount of such annual sum as shall have so reverted in the course of the next immediately preceding half-year, together with an account of the amount of life annuities then payable; and that in every such account shall be specified the excess in the whole amount of all the life annuities then before granted, above the amount of the dividends receivable in respect of all the bank annuities then before transferred for the purchase of life annuities; and also the excess (if any) in the amount of the life annuities then payable above the amount of such dividends.—And that a separate account shall also be kept half-yearly of the capita] stock, which, up to the period of such account, shall have been redeemed by the application of the annual sums which shall, from time to time, have so reverted to the said funds, by reason of the deaths of nominees, and by the application of the ac-
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cumulated dividends of the capital stock redeemed thereby:—Also, an account of the whole amount of 3l. per cent. capital stock, which up the period of such account, would have been redeemed by the excesses in the amount of the life annuities from time to time payable by the said commissioners, above the amount of the dividends from time to time receivable by them, in respect of the bank annuities, transferred for the purchase of such life-annuities, in case such excesses had been intermediately applied in the redemption of 3l. per cent. stock, in the manner prescribed by the laws now in force for the reduction of the National Debt."
Mr. Windhamwould not in the present early stage go into any detailed observations on the plan submitted to the committee by the right hon. gent., but merely rose to observe, that there was this obvious and fundamental objection to the Plan, that it did, in a greater or less degree, tend to vitiate the morals of the lower orders of the people. He was afraid that too many parents would be found, who would be very willing to sacrifice the future interests of their children to their own immediate gratification. The system of annuities was too generally attended with such consequences, and he saw nothing in the Plan of the right hon. gent. calculated to obviate such effects in the present instance.
Mr. Brandsupposed a case in which five millions were transferred when the stocks were at 60; he then supposed, that by the natural progress of the price from the operation of the Sinking Fund, the stocks Would reach 65, but that by the accelerated progress, in consequence of removing so much from the market, they would rise to 70: in that case he contended, that no advantage would be derived from the measure, but rather that it would be injurious.
Mr. Tierneydeprecated the facility which the Plan proposed to afford to persons in the lower walks of life to do that which would be highly injurious to their families. At the same time, he did not believe that there was in this country any considerable body of people who would be disposed to avail themselves of the Plan. Persons of high rank could with case obtain annuities at the present moment, on landed security. Mr. Pitt had tried a similar Plan in 1783, which intirely failed. Every thing led him to believe that capital and increase of capital

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were the objects of the day, and was it probable that a person who had hitherto preferred capital to interest, should all at once change his plan, and prefer interest to capital; and that, too, precisely at the moment when the chancellor of the exchequer was assuring him that capital would rise in value? It appeared to him also (although he only stated it without meaning to infer that such a step, under some circumstances, might not he adviseable), that the Plan would be a violation of the act of parliament, respecting the reduction of the debt, and consequent infraction of faith with the public creditor. It was well known, that the stocks were kept up by the periodical presence in the market of the commissioners for the reduction of the debt, who were bound to make certain purchases on certain days, whatever might be the state of that market. If, however, these annuities were granted to a considerable extent, that part of them which exceeded the interest, must diminish the disposable sum in the hands of the commissioners for the reduction of the debt. The consequence would be, that the effect now produced, and which he had just described, would be materially lessened; and the person who bought stock last week on the faith of the act of parliament, by which he expected that his property would soon be very much increased in value, would thus find himself deceived. The right hon. gent. had stated his expectations, that he should be able to make loans in the three per cent. stock redeemable at 80. What advantage would be derived from this he was at a loss to comprehend. In proportion to the sum at which it was to be redeemable by the contractor, would the contractor raise his original terms. He did not mean to derogate from the merits of the right hon. gent., but he could assure him, that he never yet knew any chancellor of the exchequer who was a match for the gentlemen in the city, where their interest was concerned.
Mr. Rosecontended that the plan of his right hon. friend would be beneficial to the individuals who should transfer their stock for annuities, in as much as it would secure their annuities without any of the difficulties of recovery attending annuities charged upon lands. The public funds would therefore be preferred; and that the practice of purchasing under this plan would not be injurious to the public, was apparent from the circumstance that the short annuities had lately afforded an op-
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portunity of making such purchases. He did not believe that any instance had occurred in which a parent had deprived a child of its inheritance in order to increase present income by sinking capital in such purchases. The general advantages of the Plan would greatly outweigh every evil that could possibly result from its operation. The Tontine Plan of 1783 was not in point, because there, present means were to be given up for future advantage; whereas, here the reverse was the case. This Plan might not be within the strict letter of the act, but he was persuaded it was within its spirit. When the Resolutions proposed by his right hon. friend should be inspected, as they would before the house would be called upon for any decision, he was convinced, that they would be considered as calculated ultimately to accelerate the redemption of the debt.
Lord H. Pettyallowed that, though in peace, capital might be withdrawn from the funds to be employed in commerce, yet the funds would rise, as no loans would then be wanted. However, looking, as they ought, to the general principle in such discussions, their measures should be framed, so as to meet any sudden shock, which might, by possibility, occur to depress the price of the funds. The plan of the right hon. gent. would hold out greater inducements to persons having lower capitals to purchase, than were to be met with in the course of fair trade. The effect would be, that a bonus would thus be given by government upon the transaction, and that the lower and middle classes would thus avail themselves of the profit held out by government. It was well known that where annuities had been encouraged by government to any extent, they produced a direct effect upon the morals of the country. The rentes viagères were a proof of that. In that instance, Neckar granted the annuities on the terms of the fair trade, but here an advantage beyond that was to be given. He thought it, too, somewhat extraordinary, that this advantage should be held out at a time when an additional tax was to be laid upon Life Insurances. The latter were dictated by every principle of prudence, providence, and foresight, whilst the purchases under the right hon. gent's plan would be the very reverse. But the effect of this plan and of the tax upon Life Insurances would be detrimental to the interests of the country. He was not prepared to say whether

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the plan would interfere with the spirit of the act, but undoubtedly there might be occasions upon which it would be proper to make modifications which might trench upon the letter of it. The Sinking Fund did not produce all the advantages that flowed from its operation by the quantity of the debt it redeemed, but the manner in which it was redeemed, by the proceeds of that fund brought into the market weekly or monthly.
Mr. Huskissondefended the Plan of his right hon. friend. It gave no bonus to; persons for investing their capitals, to the prejudice of their families. The scale was calculated upon the usual principles of the probabilities of life; and as to the effect it might have upon the morals of the public, it should be recollected, that the short annuities, which had lately fallen in, to the amount of 4 or 500,000 l. per annum, had been in the market, and had been in the market without producing any such effect, though upon the principle of the gentlemen opposite, they were much more dangerous, as they required a larger proportion of capital to be sunk. There were numberless cases, in which it would be desirable for parties to purchase annuities for lives other than their own, and there were every day to be met many ruinous modes of accomplishing that object. In the present state of this country, there were many cases of persons, who, without injury to the interests of others, would purchase annuities, and the plan of his right hon. friend would enable them to do that at the fair money value of the funds at the time. His right hon. friend had stated only, that considering all circumstances of peace or war, there was a greater probability that the price of stocks would rise than fall, and as the average price of the redemption of the funds would be nearer to 80 than the present price, all the rise above the present price would be so much gain to the public.
Mr. Davies Giddyspoke shortly, as nearly as we could collect from the low tone of voice in which he delivered his sentiments, rather in terms of approbation of the plan.
Sir John Newportobserved, that this plan certainly held out superior advantages to such as should be disposed to take advantage of it; and deprecated the holding out any inducements to the lower classes to speculate in annuities. The finances of France had been in an embarrassed State at the time of resorting to the rentes
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viagères, but that was not the case in this country at present, and it was dangerous for the state to speculate in such transactions. If there were vices in a country, government ought not to partake of them. In France there had been many instances of persons who sacrificed the interests of their posterity for their own immediate gratification. That was not consonant to the feelings of the people of this country, and he should therefore deprecate any measure that would have the effect of assimilating the habits and morals of this country with those of France.
Mr. A. Baringconsidered the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer perfectly clear but upon one point, the mode of calculating the value of lives. If the calculation was founded upon the tables of life, it would be a bad calculation for the public, because these tables were formed upon the ordinary probabilities of life, and the lives insured would be picked lives. He did not think the plan would succeed-to any extent, and he trusted it would not. A great part of the rise of the funds which had taken place since the last loan, had been produced by the stagnation of trade. The return of peace would, by giving other employment for capital, keep down the rise of the funds that would be produced by other causes. But, he apprehended that the funds would fall in consequence of a defalcation of revenue arising from the stagnation of trade. The plan upon which loans had hitherto been made in this country, was to procure them at a low rate of interest, and to give the individual the chance of the rise. Thus the burthen was laid upon posterity to relieve the present generation. The plan of the chancellor of the exchequer was the reverse, borrowing at five per cent. whereby we should have more interest to pay, and posterity less capital to redeem. He had not so sanguine a view of the state of the finances of the country as to think this change desirable.
Mr. W. Smithcould not abstain from bearing his testimony to the immoral tendency of this plan. In all cases where government profited by the vices of the country, it connived at them. Thus it was that it was easier to procure licences for all the ale-houses in the country than to suppress one; and to the profit government derived from the stamp duty upon them, it was owing that the country was so deluged with quack medicines. The same principle applied to all the mounte-

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bank exhibitions which saluted the eyes of the public in every street of this city. When government profited by the vices of the country, it was not so zealous in suppressing them. He looked upon these annuities as a moral poison which should not be circulated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthanked the hon. gentlemen opposite for the candid manner in which they had shewn their attention to the plan he had proposed. Gentlemen had talked of the immoral tendency of his plan, and of the effect it would have in changing the character of the country. They considered the purchase of annuities as a vice that ought to be put down. If parents purchased annuities for their own lives to the prejudice of their children, that, be admitted, would be wrong, and ought to be discountenanced. But would it not be proper for a parent to purchase an annuity for his child or for his widow, if the circumstances of his property would not admit of any other provision? It would be idle to provide small annuities, suppose for servants, or for a widow, on the security of land, when the expences of settlement, and perhaps of recovery, would lender the provision of no avail. No lure was to be held out to any description of persons; the calculations were founded upon the common principle, and there were every day much greater temptations held out without any security. Instead of having an immoral effect, the plan would afford an opportunity of acting upon the principles of humanity and good nature, in making a provision for friends. He should not be partial to the measure, if it would tend to alter the national character. But upon every consideration he could give it, he found the balance of good greatly preponderate over any evil that might be likely to arise from its operation. He had omitted to state, that one of the Resolutions contained the principle of the calculations, and the scale of purchases, and that they had been framed, not only upon the table of lives, but upon communication with those most intimate with such subjects. It had been said, that the plan would interfere with the operation of the Sinking Fund, but that must have been a mistake; because, if its operation were to amount to a million of annuity, the whole sum transferred for that would go to the commissioners, and add to the amount of the redeemed stock, whilst the amount of the Sinking Fund would be affected only to the small extent of the additional an-
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nuity created. The plan might, perhaps, interfere with the letter of the act, but, was certainly within its spirit, and this was one of the cases in which the hon. gentlemen had admitted that the letter might be departed from.—The first Resolution was then agreed to, and the chairman having reported progress, the committee was ordered to sit again on Thursday.

LOCAL MILITIA BILL.
Lord Castlereagh Lord Castlereagh moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the English Local Militia bill, and having moved that the bill be recommitted, the house resolved itself into the committee.
Mr. Babington, with a view to the more certain and efficient training of the people, proposed an amendment, rendering it compulsory to call out the quotas under the bill as speedily as may be.
Lord Castlereaghthought it might be safely left to the discretion of government to carry the training into effect with all convenient speed. He, however, was, willing to accede to the hon. gent.'s proposition, with some verbal amendments.
Mr. Windhamthought the burthen of the training and regimenting too great to impose on the people till there was a prospect of its being wanted. It was the merit of the Training act, that it gave the power of calling out the people when they, should be wanted, and imposed no burthen in the intermediate time. If any hon. gentlemen were so much in love with the present measure, that, they wished it to be,-executed without delay, the best incentive was to indulge them with the enjoyment of the ballot as soon as possible.
Mr. G. Vansittartthought so large a ballot as this measure required, would be intolerable and impracticable. He wished the lists to be made out, and the ballot to take place at the same time for the local and the general militia, in order to avoid the unnecessary repetition of the bustle and confusion attending that proceeding.—After some further observations, the Amendment was agreed to as modified on the suggestion of lord Castlereagh.
Sir James Montgomeryobjected to the balloting plan of the noble lord, and proposed that the young men should be taken, from the age of 18 or 19, to that of 25; that they should be trained for 3 months the first year, and that the time in the; subsequent years should be diminished-as; they advanced in proficiency; that when they had passed the age of 25 they should be exempted from the service, so that the

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rotation should depend on the age and not on ballot. He described the advantages of having the services of these young men, who would be much easier trained, and with a much less burthen to the nation, which would have fewer wives and families to provide for. It would be much Jess harrassing to the country than this ballot.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that this would entirely destroy the system of quotas, and the hardship would fall very unequally on the counties, unless the hon. baronet meant that the whole of the volunteer establishment should be immediately abolished. This would, besides, be attended with difficulties in the execution, much hardship, and other disadvantages, to which he did not see it necessary at present to subject the country.
Mr. Windhamapproved of neither of the plans; but of the two, the hon. baronet's was certainly preferable, as along with the burthen on the public it would be in some degree efficient, whereas the noble lord's would do nothing more than impose an useless burthen. The hon. baronet was for dissolving the volunteers. The noble lord was for wasting them by degrees; he was for drilling them, secundum artem: his object was to transfer them to the local militia; he intended to bribe them to come into this militia, and to induce the officers, by giving them rank, to bribe the men to accompany them. This was his mode of proceeding with those to whom he had so often said he was willing to trust the fate of the country: why did he not trust them now? He had within 50,000 of all that he had before of volunteers. But the noble lord was obliged to have recourse to this transfer, and to adopt some of the very methods he had so loudly condemned, and all this after the calumnies which he had propagated against the proceedings of the late administration on this subject. He did not at all approve of the method of training proposed by either of the plans. It was impossible to train the people, so as to bring them in regiments against the enemy, under officers as ignorant as themselves. What he had proposed was to teach them the mere elements, to handle their arms and to fire powder. But his great object was to have them enrolled, so that they might be called upon, in case of emergency, to join the regular troops under experienced officers.
Colonel Foleythought this a very fair bill, as it went to call upon those counties
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to do their duty, who had not furnished their proportion of volunteers.
Lord Castlereaghmentioned, that he intended to propose that there should be an instruction to volunteer corps that were full, to admit as supernumeraries persons who chose to pay half the fine, and go into a volunteer corps, in order to be exempted from this service.
Mr. Windhamobserved that this was forcing into volunteer corps those who were no volunteers.
Mr. C. Wynnerather approved the bill, so far as it went; for a more permanent force than the volunteers was necessary. Yet he would have prefered a conscription of the young men from 18 to 25 to the method of ballot. A conscription, he affirmed, would be much more efficacious and less distressing than the ballot, for the duty would then be certain and unavoidable, whereas the system of ballot was attended with the most tormenting anxiety and uncertainty, and was calculated to introduce a system of perjury, that would be of the most calamitous consequences to the country.
The Secretary at Warobserved, that on that plan, all ranks must be confounded, and this would be felt as an intolerable grievance. The present mode of exempting persons, by fine and service in volunteers, would have the effect of bringing into the local militia those who were most fit for such a situation.
Mr. Wynneobserved, that he had meant that the volunteers should be open to those who chose to serve in that way.
Mr. Wilberforcethought that the hon. baronet's plan was preferable, and he was sorry the principle had not been acted upon as it had been detailed by a noble writer (lord Selkirk). But the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet would go to change the principle of the present bill, and could not, he apprehended, be adopted in the committee. He must, therefore, oppose it as being brought forward at ah improper period. If, however, it should be proposed at a time when he could, consistently with the usages of the house, support it, he would do so, for he was convinced it would, more than any other plan, give security to the country, and contribute to the restoration of peace.
The house then divided, For the amendment 41; Against it 146; Majority 105;—Several verbal amendments were made in the different clauses, and a considerable deal of discussion took place.—The

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house then resumed, the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.