Commons Sitting of 29 June 1808

MR. ALEXANDER DAVISON.
Lord A. Hamiltonrose to put a question to the

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right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, on a subject to which he had long since called the attention of the house, and the prosecution of which he had on that occasion relinquished, in consequence of an assurance given to him and to the public, that the proper steps were in train for procuring justice to the public. The subject he alluded to was, the matter of one of the Reports of the commissioners of Military Inquiry, respecting the conduct of Mr. Alexander Davison. It was now nearly twelve months since he had received the assurance that proper measures were to be pursued on this head, and yet all that the house knew at present was, that an inquiry had been instituted, and it was manifest that very great irregularities, to say the least, had been committed. The question he had to put was, to ascertain by the answer, to what extent the measures, which it might have been desirable to resort to, had been acted upon. If the answer he should receive should not prove satisfactory to him, he should feel it his duty, in an early part of the next session, to bring the subject in some shape or other before the house. He had but one more observation to add to what had been stated, and which was rather of a nature personal to himself. It had been intimated to him from several quarters, that, if he had not taken up the matter, it would have been in the hands of others, who would not have lost sight of it, and consequently he was bound to bring it under the consideration of the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould not have the smallest objection to the production of the fullest information on the subject of the inquiry to which the noble lord had alluded. The noble lord could not be unaware that a parliamentary commission had been appointed, to whom the whole of Mr. Davison's accounts had, in consequence, been referred. That commission had from time to time made Reports upon the subject of the inquiry intrusted to them, to the Treasury, which regularly submitted these Reports to the law advisers of the crown for their opinion, whether a civil or criminal process should be founded thereon. It appeared upon some of them that the inquiries were not sufficient; upon others, on the contrary, it was considered that a legal demand existed on the part of the nation, to be recovered by civil process; and in every such case, application had been made to
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the party, as was customary in all private transactions, for payment of the sum demanded before the commencement of a civil suit, with directions, in case of noncompliance with the application, to resort to legal process. As the inquiries were still in prosecution, the noble lord might, in the next session, if he desired information upon the subject, apply to the treasury, and he had no doubt the business would then be in such a state as to allow of the whole proceedings being laid before parliament. For the present, he was sure the noble lord would not expect him to explain further, but of this he could assure that noble lord, that the subject had never been lost sight of by his majesty's ministers.

FINANCE COMMITTEE.
Mr. Bankespresented from the bar the Third Report of the Committee of Finance. On the report having been read, the hon. gent. rose to move that it do lie on the table, but before he should make that proposition, he felt it necessary to address an observation or two to the house. He hoped that gentlemen would not be alarmed at the enormous mass of papers which he had brought up, because under the instructions which had been given to the committee, he had conceived it necessary to communicate all the returns upon which the Report of the committee was founded. Only a small part, however, of the papers before the house, would be necessary to be printed, and he trusted, from the part he had taken in the discussions respecting the printing of papers, that the house would give him credit for not wishing to have more printed I than were absolutely necessary to put the house in possession of the subject. It was only a small part therefore of the papers which he had brought that he should move to be printed. On presenting a Report, which had occupied so large a portion of the attention of the committee, he was afraid that the house might suppose that much time had been lost in preparing it. But he could say, as well for himself, as on the part of the other members of the committee, that they had not been wanting in their duty. The delay, and that of some months, in presenting the Report, had arisen from the contrariety of opinion which had taken place in the committee, owing perhaps to its being composed of too numerous an assemblage of members. If it should be the pleasure of the house, that the committee should be renewed in another session, it would be a question.

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founded upon the experience of the present session, whether it ought to be composed of so large a number. Though this was the only Report which the committee had presented in the present session, he-assured the house that they had attended to other subjects, upon which they had made some progress, though under the instruction given to them by the house, they had looked upon themselves as bound to suspend such inquiries in order to make up this Report. They had made progress in the business relating to the Pay office, and the War office accounts; but as these subjects were also under the consideration of the commissioners, they deemed it expedient to wait the these commissioners should make a Report upon these heads, a report which had been presented only on Saturday last. As to the report which the Committee of Finance now made to the house, he had only to say, that it was less satisfactory to himself, than the report which a few days since he had hoped to lay upon the table of the house; and if gentlemen should be disappointed by its contents, he could assure them he had expected a few days since to have presented a report in a shape which was consistent with his own wishes. Some alterations, however, had been made in passages of that report, and some omissions; but he did not mean to complain of that. It might have arisen from a smaller number of the members having attended towards the close of the session, than in the earlier part of it, when the original form of the report had been agreed to. Such a circumstance was incidental to all large assemblies, and without complaining of it, he stated the fact only for the guidance of the house, when the question concerning the revival of the committee should come under their consideration. Whatever might be thought of the report which he had presented, he had acted under a sanction of the majority of the committee present when it was finally voted. Upon the whole, however, it would be found to contain much useful information, and many suggestions that would be productive of public good. At all events, he was happy that this part of the labours of the committee had been brought to a termination. The hon. gent, then concluded by moving, that the Report do lie on the table, and be printed.
Mr. Leycestercoincided with the hon. gentleman in every thing he had asserted, with respect to the assiduity with which the hon. gentleman and the other mem-
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bers of the committee, had discharged the trust committed to them. He should have confined himself to this Corroboration of the statement of the hon. chairman of the committee, if he had not felt it necessary from what had fallen from him on other topics, to add a few observations in order to obviate any misconception with regard to what had passed in the committee. The hon. gentleman had stated, that some passages of the original report prepared by him had been altered, and another left out. As to the alterations, he should observe, that when the report had been first proposed to the committee, most important differences prevailed respecting several passages in it, and one passage had been carried in that instance only by a majority of one. Upon that occasion, notice had been given, that, on the second reading of the report, a stage understood on all hands to be designed for a revision of the report, an alteration would be proposed. Some alterations were on that occasion carried by a small, others by a great majority of the committee, and others again unanimously, and this at a meeting called by the chairman in the regular way, and acceded to by those present when the adjournment of the proceedings was proposed. At a meeting so adjourned, the amendment to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, had been carried. The other passage to which the hon. gentleman had alluded had been left out of the report. From the importance which the honourable member attached to these passages, the house might suppose that they were of very great consequence, and from what had been insinuated out of doors, it would seem as if the committee was disposed to screen public delinquents. But the house would be surprised when he explained to them the real state of the case. The original report stated, if not in terms, at least in substance, that all sinecure places ought to be abolished, with few exceptions; and the amendment was, that the emoluments of some sinecure places ought to be diminished, and that others should be abolished. When he stated this he was convinced that the house would not consider the difference of such importance, nor that much weight was to be attached to the circumstance of the original passage having been in the first instance carried by a majority of one. The house was left in the same situation with respect to the course it might think proper to pursue, by the amendment as by the original passage, be-

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cause no definite line was pointed out in either, and it remained for the house eventually to determine for itself. As to the other passage, to which, as having been left out, the hon. gent, had alluded, he rather thought that it was the passage which related to the increase of the influence of the crown. One objection to that passage was, that whilst it enumerated all the circumstances which had increased the influence of the crown, it omitted those by which the influence of the crown had been diminished. It was his opinion, at least, that if that subject were to be introduced at all into the report, all the circumstances on both sides ought to have been noticed. But there was a still stronger objection to the passage. The object of the appointment of the committee was, not to inquire into the increase or diminution of the influence of the crown, but to investigate the circumstances of the public expenditure, and to report how far public money might be saved in that expenditure. He was sorry to take up the time of the house between the merits of the original report and the alterations which had been made in it. But he should be glad if every amendment that had been proposed, and every question that had been discussed in the committee, were before the house, and he was confident that the house would concur in every alteration which had been made.
Mr. H. Thorntonwas anxious that this subject should be fully explained to the house. He had risen to support the statement that had been made by the chairman of tile committee, and to prevent any improper impression being made by the statement of the learned gentleman who had just sat down. That learned gentleman seemed to think, that the difference between the passages of the original report and the alterations made in it, was wholly unimportant, whereas, for his own part, he thought it by no means trifling or unimportant. As the report stood a week ago, it expressed a wish to retain those sinecure places which were necessary to the dignity of the crown, and went on to state, that the remainder, with few exceptions, ought to be abolished. In this passage, the committee expressed a decided opinion upon the principle of sinecures. It recognized the principle of the former finance committee in reserving these sinecures, which would be the remuneration of great public services, and for which, if not reserved, a provision should be substi-
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tuted out of the public funds of the country, whilst at the same time it asserted a principle against sinecures in general.—The amendment, on the contrary, stated only that some sinecures ought to be retrenched, and others abolished, without containing any opinion against the general principle of sinecure places. As to the other passage which had been alluded to, that was not of so much consequence. The increase of the influence of the crown had only been introduced to meet an argument against retrenchment, that would lessen that influence, by shewing that if it should be diminished by such retrenchment, it had been increased in other respects.—The Report was then ordered to lie on the table. On the motion for its being printed,
Mr. Hornersaid, he should be glad to know precisely what parts were intended to be printed, and what to be left out. It seemed now doubly necessary from the account they had just heard of the difference of opinion in the Committee, that the house should have as much as possible before them, in order to be able to form a judgment for themselves.
Mr. Bankesreplied, that whatever difference of opinion there might have been on other subjects, there had been none as to the selection of the particular documents necessary to be printed along with the report. Every information would be before the house, and a catalogue of the papers not required to be printed, but which were laid on the table, would be added, so that those papers might at any time be referred to for particulars.

DISMISSAL OF THE LATE MR. DALRYMPLE.
Lord H. Petty, understanding that no objection would be made to his motion, after paying a high tribute to the science and services of the late Mr. Andrew Dalrymple, who had been offered a pension equal to his salary as Hydrographer to the Admiralty if he would resign, and on his refusal had been peremptorily dismissed his office, which circumstance had accelerated his death, moved for a copy of a Letter of the lords of the admiralty dismissing the late Mr. Andrew Dalrymple from his office of Hydrographer to the Admiralty.
Mr. R. Wardhad no objection whatever to the production of this and every other document connected with the subject, and went along with the noble lord in bearing testimony to the merits and services of the gentleman whose removal was the object of the noble lord's motion. He could-

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assure that noble lord, that the present Board of Admiralty felt as forcibly as he could, what was due to that gentleman's genius and services. But the real state of the case was, that for several months before his dismissal, the Board of Admiralty could not get him to comply with their most direct orders. If they directed him to supply a particular map or chart to a particular vessel, he replied with written folios, containing reasons for his not complying, which the Board of Admiralty could not countenance, and this he had done latterly in terms so offensive as to call for some decisive measure on their part. He had never heard of any offer of his full salary to that gentleman, but the letter requiring him to retire, without adverting in the slightest degree to his numerous acts of disobedience, was couched in the softest terms, and secured to him the usual portion of salary retained by public officers, on retiring from office.
After a few words from Mr. Horner in praise of Mr. Dalrymple, and from lord H. Petty and Mr. Ward, the motion was suffered to lie over for to-morrow, to give the latter an opportunity of considering how far the circumstances of the case could be brought under the consideration of the house.

CRIMINALS.
On the motion of sir S. Romilly, the following Papers were ordered, I. "A Return of the number of persons, male or female, committed to the several gaols in England and Wales for trial at the different sessions and assizes in the years 1800, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7; distinguishing the crimes with which they were respectively charged, and the numbers severally convicted, acquitted, or discharged upon proclamation, or by reason of no bill being found against them, and the sentences of such as were convicted, and distinguishing also the numbers of those capitally convicted, who have been executed; and distinguishing particularly, in each year, the number of persons, male or female, committed for privately stealing in a shop or warehouse to the amount of five shillings, and of those committed for stealing in a dwelling-house to the amount of forty shillings, and of those committed for stealing cloth from bleaching grounds to the amount of ten shillings, and the numbers indicted for such several offences, and the numbers convicted capitally upon such indictments and the numbers of those so capitally convicted who have been executed
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in each of such years.—2. A Return of the number of persons, male or female, committed to the several goals in England and Wales for trial at the several quarter sessions in the said years, distinguishing the crimes' with which they were respectively charged, and the numbers severally convicted, acquitted, or discharged upon proclamation, or by reason of there not being any hills found against them; together with the sentences of such as were convicted.—3. A Return of the number of persons, male or female, who received sentence of transportation at the different sessions, assizes, and quarter sessions in England and Wales in the said years, distinguishing the numbers transported for 7 or 14 years, or for life.—4. A Return of the number of persons, male or female, who have been transported as criminals to New South Wales since the first establishment of the colony; specifying the term for which each person was transported, the date and place of the conviction, and the time of embarkation for New South Wales.—5. A Return of the number of persons who, being under sentence of transportation, have, in each year since the year 1780, died in the hulks."

HYDE PARK.
Mr. Huskissonpresented an account of the Land Revenues of the crown; on the motion that it do lie on the table,
Mr. Windham, though not sure that the subject to which he was about to allude was within the cognizance of the house, yet considered it well worth its attention. He had heard lately that it was in contemplation to extend the buildings (which had already been carried too far), still further into Hyde park. Any contraction of that scene of public exercise and recreation would be extremely injurious to the health and comforts of the inhabitants of this great metropolis; and though he was not prepared to make any motion upon this subject, as a representative, of the people, he was entitled to bring a matter of so much importance to their health and interests under the consideration of parliament.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas at a loss to know what the right hon. gent. meant. He was not aware that the house could interfere with the disposal of the property of the crown, where an improvement was intended. When the right hon. gent. should give notice of this motion, then the house could judge of the question in some tangible shape. It could scarcely be the right hon. gent.'s opinion, that no

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improvement was to be made, or lodge built in the royal domains, till reported upon by a special committee of that house. Some buildings had during the present administration been erected in a corner of the park, not much used for the recreation of the public, which had led to others. But be could assure that right hon. gent., that he knew of no design to extend the buildings so as to contract the park.
Mr. Windhamdid not impute blame to any set of men, but still contended, that this was an interesting subject, and deserving the attention of the house.
Mr. Creeveycorroborated what had fallen from his right hon. friend, and asserted that a correspondence had taken place between several of the nobility and Mr. Fordyce, on the subject of these buildings, and that Mr. Fordyce had been so accommodating, as to recommend to the crown, that they should be allowed to build the houses they proposed. If the precedent of the encroachment were once established, the public would, in the end, be excluded from the park. This was a fit object of the attention of that house. Besides, the recommendation might be a matter of favouritism, of which that house should be jealous. He therefore gave notice, that he should move for copies of the correspondence he had alluded to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad stated only, that he knew of no plan for extending buildings so as to contract the park. Application, however, had been made to the treasury to have superior buildings, in the place of very inferior ones now existing.
Mr. Biddulphobserved, that if the plan were to stop there it might not be so objectionable. But he assured the house he had heard, in a casual conversation concerning improvement, of a plan for surrounding the parks with a belt of houses, the profits of which would defray the expence of building such a palace as would be suitable for a king of this country to reside in.
Sir F. Burdenhad not heard of any of the plans alluded to by the hon. gent, who had just sat down, and confident he was, that they would not be countenanced in any quarter. The access to the parks was so essential to the health and recreation of the people of this great metropolis, that any beginning of encroachment ought to be resisted. If it was intended only to erect buildings on the site of the riding house, he should say that the riding house
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took up but a small space, whereas the mansion and offices of a nobleman would extend over a considerable space.
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that there could not be any danger of favouritism, or of a beneficial grant to the individual now, in any case of a demise from the crown. The surveyor general of crown lands, was by law obliged to report the value of the land to be demised, estimated by professional surveyors, upon oath, to the treasury. As to the reports which had gone abroad, they were idle rumours, for which there was no foundation. He certainly had heard some which had not even the colour of probability, such as that lord Ponsonby and other noble lords were amongst the individuals who were to have the privilege of erecting these buildings.